Origins: Zipper Verses

Subject: Origins: Zipper Verses
From: thespionage
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 12:45 PM

I had written a thread about a line from "Jordan's River" and some users discusssed zipper verses. What are some common or favorite zipper verses?

Russ

Subject: RE: Origins: Zipper Verses
From: wysiwyg
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 01:01 PM

See spirituals permathread. Too numerous and oft-discussed IMO.

~S~

Subject: RE: Origins: Zipper Verses
From: Azizi
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 10:12 PM

Greetings, thespionage.

Yes, I agree that the African American Spirituals Permathread is a great resource. And I applaud the work that WTSISYG has done to compile that resource.

But your question stroke my curiousity. I wondered how many of these verses that appear in African American religious songs would come to mind without looking them up in that resource. So here goes:

"If you get to heaven before I do
just tell my friends I'm comin too".


"River of Jordan is chilly and cold.
Chills my body but not my soul"


"I went to the valley but I didn't go to stay
my soul got happy and I said all day"


If you don't believe I been redeemed
just follow me down to Jordon's stream"

"King Jesus rides a milk white horse
the Jordon river he did cross"

****

Okay...I KNOW I know more than that. But these pesky children's floating verse from children's rhymes keep popping in my mind. Come to think of it, this thread doesn't have to only be about "zipper verses" from spirituals, does it?

Subject: RE: Origins: Zipper Verses
From: Azizi
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 10:23 PM

Actually what I thought of were floating verses and not zipper verses, right?

Aren't zipper verses when you just substitute one referent for another, like in this verse from a spiritual called "Ride On, King Jesus"

If you see my mother
Oh Yes.
just tell her for me
Oh Yes.
Just to ride her horse on the battle field
I wanna go to heaven in the morning.

****

Then the zipper would be to substitute "mother" for "father" and change the pronoun to "he" [if you see my father...just tell him for me etc]. The person then could be sister , brother, neighborhood, cousin, aunt, uncle, pastor, deacon etc etc etc.


The referent "zipper song" is a new one for me. Is this what is meant by that term?

Subject: RE: Origins: Zipper Verses
From: Azizi
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 10:41 PM

Just because I mentioned children's floating verses I'd like to follow through and list some [even though they may not be "zipper verses".

These separate verses come from some contemporary English language children's handclap rhymes and foot stomping rhymes with attitudes that appear to be rather widely known:

zing zing zing
and ah one two three {or "at the bottom of the sea"}
[an introductory verse for handclap rhymes]

"ask me no questions
I'll tell you no lies"

"reeses pieces butter cup
you mess with me and I'll mess you up"

"I'm sweet and fine
like a bottle of wine"

"bang bang choo choo trane
mess with me and I'll do my thang"

"my sign is Taurus * and that's alright
cause all Taurus are out of sight" {or "dynamite"}
* the next soloist names her own astrological sun sign

"Mama mama I feel sick
send for the doctor quick quick quick"

****

And there are many more...

Subject: RE: Origins: Zipper Verses
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 01:04 AM

The definition at the "Whither Zither" website gives a good explanation of zipper verses.
"... zipper songs which are known as such because their lyrics for the most part don't vary from verse to verse except for a spot where replaceable words or phrases can be 'zipped' into and out of the song, like the animals in "Old MacDonald". Or like the activities in the song "Ain't it a Shame" which I learned years ago, along with many other wonderful zipper songs, from a Leadbelly's Last Sessions LP:
Ain't it a shame to [go fishin'] on a Sunday; ain't it a shame. (repeat) /Ain't it a shame to [go fishin'] on a Sunday, When you got Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday/ Oh, Thursday Friday Saturday, ain't it a shame.
In following verses, instead of "go fishin,'" Leadbelly sang "kiss your wife," "take a drink," and so forth. This is a late night road-song for me, and I take it down all sorts of provocative avenues of debauchery before I'm through.
....
In "Down by the Riverside," you can lay down all sorts of miscellaneous things by the river, along with swords and shields. "I Got Shoes" (you got shoes, all God's children got shoes)is also limitless. "He's Got the Whole World in His Hands" is a truly minimal zipper song. It's nothing but the title, repeated and repeated, with the phrase "whole world" as the zippable phrase, which returns in each verse for the last line:
He's got [the little bitty baby] in his hands (repeat three times) / He's got the whole world in his hands...."

"We Shall Overcome" and "She'll Be Coming round the Mountain" are others suggested.
http://members.aol.com/wzither/wzjan04.html

Subject: RE: Origins: Zipper Verses
From: open mike
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 02:42 PM

zipper verses originate from back in the days when there was only one
song.

later....

union organizers and protest leaders used them to great advantage
(woody guthrie did this) by using tunes that people were familiar
with and adding lyrics that spoke about the topic du jour. (sp?)

example....Red Wing (a song about an indian maiden) became Union Maid

other lyrics were "zipped in"
they could have called them applique' lyrics
or velcro
or glue stick...

Subject: RE: Origins: Zipper Verses
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 02:49 PM

Now they're called velcro verses.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Origins: Zipper Verses
From: wysiwyg
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 04:37 PM

"Zipper" and "Floater" are often used interchangeably. If you put in the blue search box you will find others' examples and usage.

~Susan

Subject: RE: Origins: Zipper Verses
From: GUEST,Frankie Child
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 05:19 PM

"Zipper" and "Floater" are often used interchangeably. If you put in the blue search box you will find others' examples and usage.

Anyone that uses the terms interchangeably does not know what they mean.

A zipper verse is where the verse repeats through the song with minor changes.

Example: O Mother let's go down, down to the valley to pray.
Then: O Father let's go down, down to the valley to pray.
O Brother, let's go down, down to the valley to pray.
O Sister, etc.

A floating verse is a traditional verse that recurs in many different songs.

Example: This old hammer it killed John Henry
It didn't kill me, baby, couldn't kill me

That verse is in "Roll On Buddy," "Swannanoa Tunnel," "Spikedriver Blues," etc.

Subject: RE: Origins: Zipper Verses
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 08:09 PM

One of the commonest floating verses is 'little girl dressed in blue (red).

Frankie Child, you will find many posts here at Mudcat where the terms are used mistakenly; that is why I quoted the 'Whither Zither' comment in some detail.

Where or when these terms were first used with these definitions, I don't know. J. E. Lighter, 1994, "Historical Dictionary of American Slang," vol. 1, does not note floater with regard to musical verse.
In prison slang, a 'floater' is a magazine or other article that 'floats' or is smuggled from cell to cell (noted in print in 1933, OED). This comes close.
As used in music, 'floater' is not in Webster. Unfortunately, vol. 3 of Lighter's Dictionary, which would include 'Z', has not yet been published. I can't find that 'zipper' with regard to verse has been included in any of the major dictionaries.

Subject: RE: Origins: Zipper Verses
From: Azizi
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 10:00 PM

Here are three examples of African American spirituals that are zipper songs:

WALK TOGETHER CHILDREN
Walk together children
don't you get weary.
Walk together children
don't you get weary.
Walk together children
don't you get weary.
There's a great camp meeting
in the promise land.

{subsitute other verbs in the first line such as
"sing together" & "pray together"; for non-religious children's groups, you might also substitute action words like these:
"march together", "hop" together", "clap together", stomp together"
"stomp" meaning to hit your foot down hard on the floor or ground so that your foot makes a bass sound}

****

AINT THAT GOOD NEWS
I got ah robe up in-ah that kingdom.
Aint that good news.
I got ah robe up in-ah that kingdom.
Aint that good news.
I'm gonna lay down my burden.
Shoulder up my cross.
Take it home to Jesus.
Aint that good news.

I got ah crown up in-ah that kingdom etc.

I got ah harp up in-ah that kingdom etc.

****

GUIDE MY FEET
Guide my feet
while I run this race.
Guide my feet
while I run this race.
Guide my feet
while I run this race
'Cause I don't want to run this race
in vain.

Guide my tongue
while I run this race.
Guide my tongue
while I run this race.
Guide my tonguet
while I run this race
'Cause I don't want to run this race
in vain.

Guide my heart
while I run this race
Guide my tongue
while I run this race
Guide my heart
while I run this race
'Cause I don't want to run this race
in vain.

Guide my mind etc.

[I have also seen "Hold my hand while I run this race etc]

Subject: Origins: Floating Verses
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Apr 06 - 01:49 PM

Yes, I guess I misunderstood. I did mean floating verses. Thanks, I'd like to hear more.

Russ

Subject: RE: Origins: Zipper Verses
From: wysiwyg
Date: 02 Apr 06 - 03:04 PM

Russ--

Mudcat is a wonderful repository. It takes a little effort to use it that way. Most of the people who post here have learned how to do it, and that it's worth the effort.


1. There are 158 posts listing in the Forum, findable if you search on that term in the big blue box at the top of the forum page. There's a lot of wisdom in those posts.

2. On the search term , there are another 74 in the forum and a bunch of DT songs that come up. There's a lot of wisdom in those posts.

3. On the term there are 9 results. As I mentioned, most Mudcatters use the terms interchageably, so you would want to use that search term as well. There's a lot of wisdom in those posts.


4. Now, MOST of the people who posted all of those are no loner active Mudcatters, and thus will never see your current request. You MAY get answers from a handful of newer members who are still active, but your thread title leads folks to think you want to know the origins of these-- and a lot of folks don't look at origins requests if they can't come up with an answer.

5. The "origins" of zippers and floaters is not, frankly, knowable. They arose before 99.9% of the songs they appear in were ever published. They arose out of memory, going back to who knows where or when.

~Susan

Subject: RE: Origins: Zipper Verses
From: Azizi
Date: 02 Apr 06 - 03:43 PM

I'm a newer member, and I'm proud!

;o}

Subject: RE: Origins: Zipper Verses
From: wysiwyg
Date: 02 Apr 06 - 05:41 PM

And deservedly so.

~Susan

Subject: RE: Origins: Zipper Verses
From: Joe Offer
Date: 03 Apr 06 - 03:38 AM

At a church conference this last weekend, I heard a question about zipper verses:

Does that mean that they're written on the fly?

Uh, sorry.....
Go back to what you were talking about.
-Joe-