A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)

Subject: A MOCKERY
From: SunrayFC
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 03:23 PM

What a pity the people chosen to present awards mocked the very music.

Why didnt they choose people from within the music to present these awards.

Such a shame.

A waste!

Briden told us he had no idea!

Subject: RE: A MOCKERY
From: SunrayFC
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 03:25 PM

and it just got worse

I am appalled!

If Harding is proud of this

Subject: RE: A MOCKERY
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 03:25 PM

que.please elucidate.

Subject: RE: A MOCKERY
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 03:34 PM

I think you're either a fan of these awards or not. No point in getting steamed up. The way the BBC has conducted itself over many years has marked out its territory. No use bitching if they don't want you in their gang.

As Cecil Sharp pointed out, Oh Bla di! oh Blah da! Life goes on...and its my house and I've paid for the band.

Subject: RE: A MOCKERY
From: GUEST,cardboard cutout
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 03:34 PM

Sunray FC is talking about the BBC Folk Awards, presumably.

That'll be John Tams, Barbara Dickson, Ade Edmundson, Linda Thompson, Phil Beer, etc. who have "no idea" will it, then.

"Why didn't they chose people from within the music..." ????

I'm slightly confused now!

Subject: RE: A MOCKERY
From: peregrina
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 03:38 PM

Perhaps Sunray is referring to Monday's Radcliffe and Maconie coverage, which was a bit peculiar, and not just because they were in Manchester?

Subject: RE: A Mockery
From: Wesley S
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 03:53 PM

Would it be considered a mockery to include enough details so that folks on both sides of the pond would have a clue as to what the heck y'all are talking about? Maybe even a link or two? Scheesh.....

Subject: RE: A Mockery
From: Leadfingers
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 04:20 PM

The Mike Harding / Smooth Ops show was a Re Hash of the BBC Folk Awards , which happened on Monday . A couple of the people presnting the awards were being 'Humourous' about Folk music ! I think it will be on 'Listen Again' on the BBC Web site .

Subject: RE: A Mockery
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 05:20 PM

Believe you me - you don't want to know about it stateside - its not our finest hour - or usually our best music.

Theres only about an hour a week of folk music on national networked publicly funded radio. Every year they (BBC) give an award - several awards to their favourite artists.

Someone thinks its a mockery.

A rockery is a sort of garden with rocks in it.

A mockery has mocks in it

Neither of the two is to be confused with a case of buggery - which doesn't have bugs in it.

Subject: RE: A Mockery
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 05:51 PM

The hour or so is largely of what WLD (excellent singer and player though he is) is pleased to call "folk".

Hoever, if (that's "if") the awards presenters for a "folk music award" were taking the piss out of folk music they should be taken down a back alley and

Much like the Carol Thatcher award to multiculturalism.

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 04:16 PM

I was looking forward to hearing The Gollywogs!!

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Folkiedave
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 04:27 PM

I haven#t heard the Harding Show - to be honest I gave up listening years ago.

The awards were generally Ok though. (IMHO)

And MH has been known to bollock people who take the piss out of folk music.

But instead of complaining on here - Smooth Ops run the BBC board - have a go on there. Complain to Feedback. Complain to the BBC.

One thing is for certain - no amount of spleen vented here will make the slightest bit of difference.

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 04:35 PM

Every year, the BBC chooses for the folk Awards ceremony some presenters who are from within the folk world, and a few who are more general celebrities.

The more general celeberities this year included actor and comedian Rob Brydon, Harry Shearer(A Mighty Wind, Spinal Tap, The Simpsons) and the comedienne Mel Giedroyc.

They were all jolly enough on the night, and while there may have been some gentle fun poked none of it was really serious. Rob Brydon in particular, with his stalking of James Taylor, was hilarious.

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: SunrayFC
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 04:39 PM

thats your opinion lass!

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Rasener
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 04:40 PM

Isn't the thread name a bit misleading. I read it and thought what are they on about.

Now I see its the presenters taking the piss).

Wouldn't the thread title be better as

Presenters of BBC2 Folk Awards 2009 mock Folk music.

I suppose its a bit like Terry Wogan taking the piss out of the Eurovison Song Contest.

I agree with Fokiedave

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 04:51 PM

Well, Sunray, I had the benefit of also hearing the full speeches, rather than the truncated versions broadcast on Mike Harding's show. Sometimes editing deletes some of the essence and charm of the event itself. I don't remember anyone chuntering about presenters being rude about folk music afterwards - unlike last year, when Steve Harley really WAS obnoxious and everyone said so.

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Folkiedave
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 05:52 PM

No change there then............

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 06:30 PM

No absolutely right, dave. which was my point. render unto caesar what is caesar's.....

and quite frankly, who gives a shit? it doesn't concern anyone outside the Inbred family.

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 07:25 PM

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!

Whatever.

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Betsy
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 07:34 PM

We should just put lots of rough , gritty, sand in their jars of vaseline .

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: GUEST,Greycap
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 07:56 PM

Each week the Harding programme, under analysis, goes pretty much as follows:
within 10 minutes: A mention of Kate Rusby
within 20/25 minutes: A mention of Seth Lakeman
within 35/40 minutes: A mention of Eliza Carthy
It's my sole, very personal suspicion, that there simply has to be money involved somewhere.
Or, and I don't believe for a minute, he's so unoriginal, that he can't move from this template for his programme.
Mike Harding is a excellent musician, singer and presenter,he also includes a great deal of folk music.
IMHO...'Catter's comments welcomed.

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 08:18 PM

It would be lovely if the Mike Harding Show could represent every individual's own tastes in folk music. But it's only an hour, there are as many opinions as there are folkies (certainly on Mudcat) and the programme, I am sure, has all sort of pressures from the BBC. Those pressures are probably financial (have you seen the cut backs throughout the BBC?) and no doubt artistic in order to keep up the ratings. Perhaps that's why the programme is sometimes a bit formulaic and if you notice, there are fewer outside broadcasts and even interviews than there used to be.
The sad thing is that this is the only dedicated folk programme on BBC national radio. Yes, there is stuff in Scotland and there's Late Junction on R3. But this is the only dedicated one.

As for the BBC Awards, I did think that perhaps some of the presenters could have been less willing to show their ignorance of the music and less willing to hide behind humour about the music. But Rob Brydon was very funny .... as was Stephen Fry a few years ago when he started his speech with the ironic "My life is folk music". But alongside this, there are some real enthusiasts for the music in unlikely quarters.

All in all, the Folk Awards are a good thing .. they help promote the music and each year there are new people being nominated and winning. If you feel that your bit of the folk scene isn't represented, all I can say is that it can't represent it all, and hopefully the trickle down effect will help strengthen the music in all its forms.

Derek Schofield

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 09:29 PM

WLD, I'm quite surprised that you know of the Inbreds, the stalwarts of Kent grunge metal that they are. Some of the greatest exponents of DOS (drunk on stage). I think there are much better local metal-ish bands to be seen and among my favourites would be the Sons of Alpha Centuari - although as their name implies they are on the stoner side.

What I don't see is what they have to do with the Smoothiechops.

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: GUEST,banjodowney
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 10:57 PM

There's also Folkwaves from BBC Derby, once a week on a Monday night,
http://www.bbc.co.uk/derby/local_radio/folkwaves_programme_feature.shtml Folkwaves is hosted by Mick Peat and Lester Simpson (of Coope, Boyes and...)and good fun to listen to.

There's also one on BBC Wales.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/wales/radiowales/sites/presenters/pages/frank_hennessy.shtml

Just thought I'd mention it....

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 02:39 AM

I can assure you it's a total waste of time complaining to Smooth Operations, they don't even acknowledge complaints, only compliments.

I have tried for a long time to get an answer to why the ' country ' music shows only have to play ' country ' music but Mike Harding has to play everything.

Dave H

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 03:22 AM

I have not listened to this show. I tend to steer clear of award shows, because as implied above the winners are cherry picked by a select few and so winners do not represent the wider tastes of fans of whatever genre.

In short meaningless to us grunts here on the ground. Let the BBC idjits have their moments of smug.

I must say that I am grateful for the likes of uberfamous folk (Rusby, et al) because they ushered me into the earthy much more satisfying real world of the music. So these young gods have their use. I say let them continue. Their prosletysing attracts new young converts who will dig deeper, find out more, keep the authentic stuff rolling on.

As to employing celebrity presenters. Don't they all take the piss, whatever the award show? Isn't that what they are paid to do?

Just my 2P worth.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2009
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 03:27 AM

Not one Irish Artists on there...why is that? Anyone would think Ireland has been dormant in it's music...

Tony MacMahon summed it up nicely:

Underlying the affection of a large section of the public for [traditional music and song] is a preconception that apart from its entertainment value, traditional music has little of artistic importance to offer. More importantly, its value in terms of addressing the spiritual desert that covers much of the Western world today, including Ireland, remains unexplored.

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 04:01 AM

I must say that I am grateful for the likes of uberfamous folk (Rusby, et al) because they ushered me into the earthy much more satisfying real world of the music.

Yes. In my case it was James Yorkston. I still like JY as a songwriter & arranger, but he's not the greatest interpretater of traditional songs. And yet, his versions of Rosemary Lane and Lowlands and Patrick Spens were the first versions of those songs I heard, and without them I wouldn't have discovered Anne Briggs and Nic Jones and John Kelly. And without *them* I wouldn't now be spending half my free time working up songs for the next singaround.

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 04:18 AM

Am I, too, "confused" at unwisely opening this thread? Other than continuing to be astounded at GEFF-ish, indeed loutish, wilful ignorance, no. After the most representative (albeit in many cases a tad belated) FA nominations in years, which at the very least, indicate that the Smoothies have taken some of their past gaffes on board, there are still the kneejerk, predictable bleatings about "usual suspects". If these whingers employed just a smidgeon of lateral thinking, they might have come up with the marginally more original (but still unfair) observation that many nominees were there only as a result of their family connections. It would indeed be ironic (if only the knockers were capable of assimilating the concept) to castigate Oates or Lakeperson siblings ( or even the kRusby who isn't even involved) as parachuted in from nowhere when they have actually been attending festivals since before they could walk.

As for the attempted putdown of the decidedly non-lass cowperson of Ambridge, no wrong. That was not an "opinion" but front-row reportage from a gathering of all corners of the industry. It's a way of generating outside interest in a little-known and widely misunderstood genre. Isn't that what you want?

It's no secret that I'm no supporter of the Smoothies and never listen to the MH show (or R2 at all) simply because I can learn nothing I want to know or don't know already. It's not there for me, but I do acknowledge that it may serve a purpose as an entry for some who will progress deeper and learn for themselves. R3 and 4 have far more of what you might (if you must) term "f*lk music as a natural part of their output, which is surely as it should be. Only yesterday I heard Nic Jones singing Humpback Whale in the middle of an environmental broadcast . . .

What really does beat me is extrapolating just what it is that these people want. An award for the floor singer who managed to stay in tune and remember the words? That might actually serve as some incentive, but not for a network broadcast aimed at the industry as a whole. The annual Brewery bash is to showcase where we are at now. And it does, on the whole.

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Rog Peek
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 04:58 AM

B3L, You've scuppered any chance you might have had of working for the BBC unless you make an unreserved apology, right now!

Rog

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 05:05 AM

' An award for the floor singer who managed to stay in tune and remember the words?'

now you're talking....however, is it strictly necessary to remember ALL the words and stay in tune ALL the way through a entire song?

How is the folk process to develop, if we adhere to outmoded standards instituted in the main part by the same buggers who have backed folkmusic into the present cul de sac.

I reserve the right of everyone to forget the words, change the words and sing out of tune. And I think I deserve an award for that.
radio2 - please note!

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 05:14 AM

outmoded standards

Ha! There it comes from a horse's mouth. "F*lk" is horsehit nowadays and it's archaic to bother to get it right..
But surely. Al, you're failing to practice what you preach.
Never heard you being less than professional.
Oh dear.

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 05:32 AM

we don't need no stinkin awards.... don't need no recognition
just let us sing for creep's sake.

GAWD!

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: peregrina
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 05:45 AM

That's what I used to think. But there have been all sorts of contests alongside inclusive participation in folk music ever since whenever--old time fiddling contests in the Southern US, traditional song or pipe competitions in Scotland, Northumberland and other places. It's basically human nature to have these two poles of inclusive participation versus competition for every pursuit from football to jam-making and baking. Luckily the the first is what keeps them all alive.

Like others who posted earlier, I have gotten into, and farther into, folk music from hearing stuff on the awards show--I still remember hearing Kate Rusby's 'who will sing me lullabies' about seven or eight years ago and being galvanized. Now I might listen to Lizzie Higgins more than KR, but one brought me to the other.

The BBC's folk awards may not have the same credibility as, say, the IBMA awards because folk doesn't have a comparable guild-organization to oversee an awards process. (And thank goodness it doesn't.) But if they bring mainstream exposure and CD sales, that seems a good thing.

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 06:17 AM

You are missing the point!

If you want the awards, you will have to be LIKE the people getting them. poncy music , crap jokes.......

Don't do it! life's too short, the pay off's not good enough.

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: peregrina
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 06:21 AM

de gustibus etc.

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 06:42 AM

"As for the BBC Awards, I did think that perhaps some of the presenters could have been less willing to show their ignorance of the music and less willing to hide behind humour about the music."

Much as I hate to deviate from the views of the respected Mr Schofield, I have to agree with what Tam said: many awards-show presenters are effectively rent-a-gobs. I'd rather they were up-front about their lack of knowledge than being excessively reverential. My ex-husband was once at a press awards 'do and Steve Coogan managed to take the piss out of three different titles that he'd worked for in the space of about two sentences. This did not mean my ex later thumped him in the bar. I think it's quite common for a certain level of barracking and banter to take place at these shindigs. Of course, there's still a line that can be crossed - I think Steve Harley crossed it last year, but I think this year's presenters stayed on the right side.

Do we need awards? Well, it depends on what you do, I guess. Let's not forget that the first festivals in the UK started out as competitive gatherings - even then, over 100 years ago, people wanted recognition for and acknowledgement of their abilities. Since then, folk seems to have become more about taking part than about competitiveness, at least at grass-roots level, but there is still concern within the folk community that our music doesn't get heard widely enough. BBC beanfeasts and gongs may mean little to the average folk club attender or even to some who attend festivals and gigs, but they do act as a kind of kite-mark to the wider world. If I've booked an artist and they've won an award, I'll certainly make sure it's acknowledged on the festival website, because I genuinely believe that it may help to sell tickets. Some people will be swayed by the mark of quality that a BBC Folk Award represents. Some won't care. And that's fine, too.

With regard to the idea that the same small pool of people get nominated every year, you have to remember that the process itself is actually quite wide. The panel can vote for anything they like in the first round. So with 170 people voting, there are a HUGE number of performers who probably get a handful of votes each. The short-listing is naturally going to pool around the areas of largest concesnsus, which might seem somewhat homogenous given the diversity of the voting panel, but it's a natural outcome of this sort of process. I have to be honest: if the awards were condicted by listener vote, I don't think the outcomes would be more diverse - I think the opposite is true. I'm reminded of public voting on awards such as "Most influential musician of the millenium", which named Robbie Williams in the top 5. If you think the awards are full of "usual suspects" and populist choices now, just open it up to a public vote.

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: GUEST,JM
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 07:11 AM

The noticable thing about this years awards was exactly that the "usual suspects" walked away empty handed.

Jackie Oates, The Demon Barbers, Tom McConville have never won an award in their lives before. Chris While and Julie Matthews have never won before (though they've been nominated umpteen times). Black Swan Folk Club has never been given an award before.

Even Lau and Chris Wood have only received one award each. And Andy Partridge has obviously never won a folk award before...

The Carthys, Rusbys and Lakemans got nothing.

So, what are you talking about?

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Rasener
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 07:16 AM

>>Chris While and Julie Matthews <<

Nice to know we have them at Faldingworth Live :-)

We also have Mawkin:Causley on April 18th 2009

Good comments Guest JM

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 08:22 AM

How I wish I had put my Forest v Derby ticket on e-bay so I could have stayed home to listen to it. ;-)

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: goatfell
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 08:27 AM

Barbara Dickson was a folksinger from dunfermline

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Terry McDonald
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 08:57 AM

Thanks, Goatfell, I don't suppose anyone on Mudcat knew that! A great contribution to the debate........

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 09:26 AM

DaveS:
How I wish I had put my Forest v Derby ticket on e-bay so I could have stayed home to listen to it. ;-)
And if someone had bought it you might be able to afford a pint while you're listening!

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: GUEST,Edthefolkie
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 10:48 AM

No more F*rest v D*rby references please, too upsetting and that's one of John Tams' best jokes up the Swannee too!

Re the awards, I always thought it was just an excuse for an almighty free p*ss up by les artistes et flaneurs at the expense of the BBC - judging by Ade Edmundson's lurchings onto camera every 10 seconds a few years ago. Anyway, here's to Chris and Julie, very well deserved.

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: GUEST,C.Porter
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 10:57 AM

How that cacophany performed by J.Moray qualified for any award is beyond me but its inclusion does back up the "Mockery" reference.

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 11:12 AM

According to Wikipedia, the Cacophony Society is "a randomly gathered network of free spirits united in the pursuit of experiences beyond the pale of mainstream society."

NB (for the edification, not to mention education, of pseudonymous "Guests"): CacophOny (Gr. phonos = sound).

All You Pretty Girls, first recorded by XTC, has been revived in an entirely contrasting arrangement by young Mr Moray, so much so that it's already entering "the tradition", especially down Walthamstow way. I find it a very jolly and quite excellent "original composition" and a worthy winner of that category.

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: GUEST,C.Porter
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 11:23 AM

According to the O.E.D., CACOPHONY is described as a discordant sound.
(Greek:- kakos = bad, phone = sound).

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: TheSnail
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 11:38 AM

it's already entering "the tradition", especially down Walthamstow way

Now there's a line you don't hear every day.

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 11:53 AM

I was going to check how to join the Cacophony Society but they say I may already be a member.

Principia Discordia looks like fun as well.

Had a listen on the Youtube and I like Morays's All You Pretty Girls. Good stuff.

Started listening to other songs. I thought I hit on one with April Morning. Starts very cleanly then it goes over all Brian Adamsy with the western slide guitar, background vocals and that "everything sounds like Cold Play now" feeling.

Maybe that is what the young uns need to bring em into the fold. but not to my personal taste.

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Folknacious
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 12:49 PM

As somebody pointed out on the BBC board, one of the presenters was Stevie Winwood who has probably sold more copies of John Barleycorn (i.e. got the song heard by more people) that everybody who contributes to Mudcat put together.

Go on, struggle with that!