Where's the new DigiTrad?

Subject: Where's the new DigiTrad?
From: Susan of DT
Date: 09 Feb 02 - 07:28 PM

(FROM dick greenhaus)

Several folks have asked me to post an explanation. Here 'tis:

This is by way of an explanation as to why the update to DigiTrad is taking so damn long. It's not any sort of excuse--I fail to see why a delay in the publication of a freely shared collection calls for any excuse whatsoever.

A few years back, DigiTrad was a full-text-searchable database that was put together (and issued) in a DOS- based format called AskSam, and used a music-playing program based on SongWright that played the tunes on the computers' speakers. The only real problem (for me) was entering songs and melodies, and the database had some notably good features: It located words, phrases, and words within a specified proximity of each other; the music-playing program didn't produce elegant sounds (actually, it sounded something like a constipated melodeon), but it played the tunes on PCs that didn't have sound cards and it displayed the words synchronously with the notes played.

When DigiTrad was first put up on the Mudcat, we originally used a Windows version of AskSam. Like most Windows applications, it was fairly slick, but didn't work as well as the earlier DOS version. It also required me to convert the tunes into MIDI format, which didn't allow for synchronizing words and music. This took additional time and left me with two versions of the tunes--a MIDI for the website, and Songwright for the people who downloaded or paid for disks. I refuse to give up the "follow the bouncing ball" feature completely. Though this system worked, it was a nuisance and it wasn't the fastest search engine around, and pretty soon the increased traffic on Mudcat caused traffic jams. Max instituted a new search engine which was faster, though even a bit more limited in the types of searches it would support. The new search required me to produce an HTML version of DigiTrad, in addition to the more compact and (IMO) better-performing one on the downloaded DOS version. It also demanded more time on my part. About this time, a helpful Macintosh programmer named Mark Heiman graciously volunteered to provide a Mac version of DigiTrad. This worked well until Mac changed its operating system, which caused the whole business to crash. A fixed Mac version appeared a year ago, for download.The Mac version has a couple of neat features: since Macs come with sound cards, you can pick the instrument you want the tune to be played upon. Even nicer, the program displays the score, lets you print it, and has synchronizing capabilities. The search is mouse driven, and doesn't support Boolean (NOT, IF, AND and OR) searches, but on the whole it's a slick package. Mr. Heiman also wrote a Windows equivalent to the Mac version which enabled me to distribute a single CDROM with both the Windows and the Mac version on it. All was well--except that Microsoft updated their operating system. Guess what no longer worked. At the moment, several things are happening (or not happening, depending on how you look at this.) The Digital Traditions forthcoming edition has about a thousand added lyrics, with a bit under 50% of them having tunes. Many errors, glitches, mis-attributions, duplications and typos have been corrected. It's still in the DOS AskSam format, which is the simplest, most convenient one for me to use. Mark Heiman, who has a full-time job as well as several time-consuming projects--he's coming out with the first new edition of Child in a quarter-century--is working on de-bugging the Windows and Mac versions. Since I'd like all the new versions to come out at the same time, I'm holding of on the teejus job of converting my files to HTML until the downloadable disks are ready. Many people have submitted songs for DigiTrad. Some are even in a usable format, and are not duplicates of what we have. Same goes for tunes. That's not where the hang-up is, though---and if anyone wants to take on the chore of converting SongWright Files to MIDI, I'd be glad to send him or her the files (along with software to do this with). I know of no volunteered labor that has been ignored; if such there be, I apologize.

Subject: RE: Where's the new DigiTrad?
From: Amos
Date: 09 Feb 02 - 07:40 PM

Dick, as far as I am concerned apologizing for free gifts to the benefit of your fellow musiclovers is as unneeded as asking forgiveness for breathing. Anyone who imp[lies otherwise should apologize to you for their untrammeled egoism.

And I, for one, think the world owes you more than one vote of thanks for your labors.

A

Subject: RE: Where's the new DigiTrad?
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 09 Feb 02 - 08:59 PM

I know music theory and can usually cope with new software, so I'd be happy to try doing a Songwrite-to-Midi translation. If it turned out OK, I should think I could do a few each week/month, depending how long it takes. Is it worth sending the software on that basis?

Not a lot to offer, I know, but if millions of other catters weigh in with similar offers, it might start to add up.

Subject: RE: Where's the new DigiTrad?
From: MMario
Date: 09 Feb 02 - 09:02 PM

Amos - you said it!

Subject: RE: Where's the new DigiTrad?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 09 Feb 02 - 10:51 PM

Susan, thanks for posting this in a clearly titled thread we can link other folks to, later, if the question arises again.

Hope you can both come back to north central PA for a Gathering-- hoping for May. A little warmer! *G* And all the guest rooms are redone, catpee rugs GONE! *G* Come teach me some ballads wouldja??!?

~Susan

Subject: RE: Where's the new DigiTrad?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 09 Feb 02 - 10:58 PM

Dick, the only question I have re the DT (which I appreciciate very much - I doubt anyone could not say it is not the best resource of its type in any form!) is this:

It seems to me that over time, the thing has got bigger and probably a lot more difficult to manage. It also seems that delays in producing releases become more noticed as do comments over corrections not taking effect.

What is the feasibility of producing and maintaining an on-line version here at Mudcast, maybe with a few volunteers who could help with live additions and corrections and then providing periodic releases from that Database?

Jon

Subject: RE: Where's the new DigiTrad?
From:
Date: 10 Feb 02 - 01:39 AM

Dick, Susan, et al,
I agree with Amos. No apologies required, and unaccepted! I think you guys do a great job. I am patient enough to wait.

I unfortunately am not musical enough to help with your conversion, but I do applaud those who are able to volunteer their time for the project.

Thanks to all of you!

Subject: RE: Where's the new DigiTrad?
From: GUEST,MCP
Date: 10 Feb 02 - 05:37 AM

I'd be more than happy to do the conversion from SongWright to MIDI. (I have set up that kind of conversion myself for occasional use here with no PC speaker - one of my degrees is computer science). If your software is straightforward I ought to be able to set up an automatic conversion to do the whole lot in one go (with virtually no delay), if not I could do it with mine.

Let me know here if you are interested and we can arrange it.

I also add that I agree with your position that a resource you provide free does not require you to explain or justify its operation in any way.

Mick

Subject: RE: Where's the new DigiTrad?
From: DMcG
Date: 10 Feb 02 - 05:38 AM

Sorry, this should probably be a new thread, but I don't know how top cross-link it to this one. Susan said

... Mark Heiman, who has a full-time job as well as several time-consuming projects--he's coming out with the first new edition of Child in a quarter-century--is working on de-bugging the Windows and Mac versions ....

Any more information on this new edition of Child?

Subject: RE: Where's the new DigiTrad?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Feb 02 - 05:47 AM

DMcG,

Info on new edition of Child

Subject: RE: Where's the new DigiTrad?
From: Susan of DT
Date: 10 Feb 02 - 10:24 AM

Hi- If volunteers for music format conversion would be so kind as to E-Mail me with their snail-mail addresses, I can ship a CDROM with the tunes. My E-mail address is:

[e-mail]

BTW, another problem that has come up is the need to decide whether the downloadable versions can be run directly from a CDROM, or must be downloaded to a hard drive first. In the latter case, the tunes are stored in a zipped file, with the play program extracting only the desired tune, playing it and then deleting the unzipped copy. THis is convenient both in terms of storage space, and in the fact that directory doesn't have 4-5000 files making it virtually impossible to see what you've got.

This technique, though, won't work if you're running directly off the CDROM; you can't unzip to the CDROM itself, and I hesitate to write programming that will create directories on other folks' hard drives for this purpose.

Suggestions welcome.

Subject: RE: Where's the new DigiTrad?
From: Jeri
Date: 10 Feb 02 - 10:46 AM

Can't you write the unzip part so it will unzip the file to the temp file instead of the same directory the zip file's in?

How does the CD Dick puts out now do it? Or are you talking about how I'd download it as opposed to how it would work? You could have a version for hard drive and another version for CDROM. I love the CD I bought from Dick, and it would be great to be able to download files to put on a CD that would work the same as the disc Dick does.

Subject: RE: Where's the new DigiTrad?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 10 Feb 02 - 10:50 AM

Dick, my own inclination on the CDROM issue, at least for Windows systems, would be to unzip to the TEMP directory (c:\windows\temp by default).

Jon

Subject: RE: Where's the new DigiTrad?
From: katlaughing
Date: 10 Feb 02 - 11:03 AM

Mick said, I agree with your position that a resource you provide free does not require you to explain or justify its operation in any way.

I couldn't agree more. Thanks, Dick and Susan.

I am sorry I don't understand exactly what converting from Songwright to midi entails, but I do have software for converting almost any kind of sound file into whatever is needed, including midi. Could someone explain more about Songwright, please.

Thanks,

kat

Subject: RE: Where's the new DigiTrad?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 10 Feb 02 - 11:46 PM

Once upon a time, I distributed a version of the DT that unzipped tunes to C:\TEMP

Of the first five, I sent out, I got two complaints from people who had partitioned their drive so that TEMP had a different ID letter. It's harder than one might think to have something that works for everybody; it's damn near impossible to support a multiplicity of versions. What we have now is too many.

Subject: RE: Where's the new DigiTrad?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 11 Feb 02 - 12:11 AM

Hi, Dick - I'd say it's best to have people operate the Digital Tradition from their hard drive. It doesn't take up much space, and setup can be very simple - all they have to do is drag the icon for the CD-ROM drive onto C: (or a subdirectory/folder in C:), and it should copy - right?

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Where's the new DigiTrad?
From: John in Brisbane
Date: 11 Feb 02 - 12:30 AM

Am emailing Susan to help with conversion.

Regads, John

Subject: RE: Where's the new DigiTrad?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 11 Feb 02 - 06:45 AM

Yes, Dick I'm sure it can get very difficult...

Re: c:\windows\temp: The best approach is to query the TEMP environment variable rather than to hard code to any specific file or folder. I have just checked on Windows XP and it still supports environment variables although the way they are set and stored has changed.

Jon