Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff?

Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 03:41 PM

Many years ago, I had two distinct approaches in my own playing: plain flat-out strumming, on the one hand (which could be as free/loose/intense as required, or not) and a very deliberate, tame, slow-and-careful brand of fingerpicking.

My first guitar was a nylon-string classical model, and so at first I played without any kind of picks. The strumming involved fingernails and the fingerpicking was barefingered.

After about 5-6 years, I switched to a steel-string acoustic and began trying to use both a flatpick and fingerpicks (well, finger- and thumb- picks, of course).

Another year or two later, I began my brief but very intense streetsinging career, putting in hours and hours at a stretch. My strumming approach, now using a flatpick, was still my freer and more intuitive manner of playing, but my hand would cramp up.

On the other hand, my fingerpicking, now with picks, became quite a bit more fluid and intense. I was now able either to pluck a single string, or two, or brush across several strings, with any given stroke of any finger (or thumb). I soon quit trying to flatpick at all, and simply wore my set of three picks on my right hand all day. I still fingerpick exclusively; nowadays I go barefingered a little more often than before, but I still use picks not only for increased volume, but also for a wider range of dynamics.

I can perform in a fairly wide variety of styles. On some songs which are normally thought of as "flatpicking" numbers, I use the thumbpick almost exclusively. You may or may not be able to tell which kind of pick I'm using. With my set of picks, I can thump hard and fast when I want, and I can play delicate little arpeggios, too. The only flatpicking style that I really cannot duplicate is high-speed bluegrass lead guitar. But then agsain, that's not something I'm really interested in playing, anyway.

Prissy playing is a turnoff, regardless of technique. Playing with any technique can be listenable if the player is well-practied and tasteful.

Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff?
From: M.Ted
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 04:18 PM

With no offense intended to Will, here's how Travis picking is really done, from the man who learned it at his father's kneeThom Bresh--I'll See You in My Dreams

Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 05:07 PM

Can someone give an example of what is meant by "prissy fingerpicking"? Who does it?

Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff?
From: Ian Fyvie
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 09:56 PM

Re: Guest. "I don't like finger picking because I can't do it? Wrong!"

I use 38 and 68 arpeggio styles, a soul music compatable style which I developed - when I discovered folk clubs - so I could play own compositions written whilst playing in a soul band; I use three of four other 44 time variants, similar style to a banjo pick.

Tried clawhmer - just fell asleep!

Ian Fyvie

Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff?
From: M.Ted
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 11:52 PM

I am disinclined to judge the playing of someone who I have never heard, Ian, but I would suggest that if you find your own "clawhammer" playing boring, well, that's about your playing, isn't it?

Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff?
From: Will Fly
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 03:39 AM

With no offense intended to Will, here's how Travis picking is really done, from the man who learned it at his father's knee

Thanks M.Ted - very sweet! One of the things that characterises most Travis pickers (and I don't actually consider myself a true one, just one vaguely in the style) is the use of a thumb pick. Something I've never got on with, strangely enough. I play fairly quietly, with fingernails, and I've always found that the thumb overpowers the other fingers.

With hybrid picking, (fingerpick & fingers) I can get a better balance between pick and nails.

Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff?
From: Piers Plowman
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 04:16 AM

Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff?
From: dick greenhaus - PM
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 05:07 PM

"Can someone give an example of what is meant by "prissy fingerpicking"? Who does it?"

See _Mel Bay's Prissy Fingerpicking Made Easy_
or
_The Joy of Prissy Fingerpicking_
or
_You Can Fingerpick Prissily!_.

Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff?
From: Tangledwood
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 04:30 AM

"These finger patterns are what I think are part of what I would call "fingerpicking": Rough Guide To Fingerpicking "

Very nice work on the instruction Will. I'll be spending plenty of time attempting to master the styles. Thank you!

Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff?
From: Will Fly
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 04:31 AM

I'm going to change my name to Will Prissy - then I can invent a new form of fingerpicking called Prissy Fngerpicking - and write a whole load of books on the Prissy Fingerpicking Technique. Should make a million.

(I'll get me thumbpick...)

Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff?
From: theleveller
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 04:44 AM

Not sure what's meant by 'prissy'. Just for the hell of it and to try to ease my stiffening fingers, I sometimes go through a frantic session of 'Freight Train' with melody and counter-melody, bass runs, double thumbing - the whole works. But I can't keep it up for long these days (ooooh, matron!!). I don't play this style usually as more melodic styles of fingerpicking tend to suit my songs. If that's 'prissy', tough.

The thing is to develop your own styles that suit your music and that you enjoy playing. Why would any one style of playing be a turn-off to youngsters? Would Martin Simpson, John Martyn or Bert Jansch's way of playing be a turn-off? More an inspiration, I'd say - but then, I'm no youngster.

Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff?
From: GUEST,appreciative
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 06:33 AM

Will Fly - that link to your YT instruction vid, then the link to your website and your "vimeos" cost me a good hour of my life. And what's more, I've bookmarked it all so its going to cost me lots more in future. Fantastic - you certainly are "paying your dues" and then some.

Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff?
From: Acorn4
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 09:24 AM

I think a lot of the confusion here is down to terminology:-

I thought "Travis" picking was when you used the heel of the right hand to damp the bass strings of a cross pick style -a good example is Doc Watson playing "Deep River Blues"

Deep River Blues

You can see the heel damp in the second half of the clip.

I thought "Clawhammer" was a banjo style rather like frailing but with more used of melody notes and drop thumbing, but even the tutor books seem the vary a bit on this.

Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 11:15 AM

Then, there's something called "thumbpicking" by its Kentucky practioners. As far as I can tell, it's just another approach to fingerpicking (literally, of course, thumb-and-finger picking). The only definining characteristic of "thumbpicking" that I can see is that most of those who practice it tend to be very skilled players.

If I'm not mistaken, Merle Travis himself was and is a self-proclaimed "thumbpicker." He does not (understandably) call himself a "Travis picker." That term seems to have been originated by folkies trying to more-or-less imitate the playing of Mr. Travis, a musical personality associated more closely with the Nashville commercial-country music industry than with the folk world, and a true virtuoso who has absorbed a wide range of musical influences, including jazz.

Is "Travis picking" nothing more or less than a pale imitation of Merle Travis's "thumbpicking"?

Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 11:40 AM

"Prissy" means "prim or prudish" according to my dictionary, confirming how I understand the word.

I'm trying to work out how a guitar technique can be prim or prudish. ("Make sure not to show your legs" ,perhaps...)

Would I be right in speculating that what is meant is when someone playing a guitar accompaniment seems to be more concerned with being too concerned with what instrumental techniquerather than with helping get the song across?   In which case, of course, that can happen with any way of playing the guitar, including what I take to be meant by "dynamic rhythmic style".

Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff?
From: Jayto
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 12:25 PM

I have to admit (not trying to be mean) but I hear alot of guitarists that only pick a certain pattern over and over on every song. I like it when people adapt a new pattern to express emotion. I agree practice the fingerpicking until it feels natural. Then think for yourself when you do it. Don't just fall back on a learned pattern. I know I am guilty everyone is at some point. You may be out and someone requests something that you are not really sure of or you really dont like but know.Then you kinda fall back on a cliche pattern to get through while mentally shutting down. That is my point I get you stop thinking and feeling and just play. You have to be very comfortable with fingerpicking to be able to adapt but in the end it makes for a better feel. Just my opinion. Oh yeah HI everyone it has been a while but I am back.
Jayto

Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff?
From: Will Fly
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 12:33 PM

Hi Jayto - nice to hear your voice again. If I remember rightly, you've done a fair bit of thumbpicking in your time! I agree with your post. I always try and fit the melody correctly into a fingerpicked tune - which, to a certain extent, stops it being too mechanical. In the middle section - where I often screw around with the chords (!) - I tend to use banjo/bluegrass rolls with thumb and two fingers. This breaks up the alternating bass and stops the overall tune being too monotonous (I think).

Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 01:03 PM

Hey, Jayto. I was thinking of you when I thought to mention "thumbpicking."

Once in a while, a very simple, unadorned, and repetitive "pattern" or arpeggio can be quite effective:

I recently rented a DVD called "Judy Collins Wildflower Festival," which shows highlights of an outdoor concert in San Diego in 2002 featuring Arlo Guthrie, Tom Rush, and Eric Anderson along with the headliner Judy Collins. (Great DVD by the way ~ I highly recommend that you put in on your Netflix queue!)

Arlo (who is great one for storytelling) goes off on a long rant about playing a huge festival in Denmark shortly after the fall of the Berlin Wall several years earlier. Thousands of Eastern Europeans were in the audience, presumably exhilarated at their newfound freedom to travel (and to attend festivals).

Pete Seeger gets the crowd singing along with just about every peace-and-freedom anthem in his repertoire, then calls Arlo to the stage. Arlo wants to continue in the same vein, but he can't think of a single number that Pete hasn't already just sung that would be appropriate to the occasion, and also readily sing-along-able. Then he has a stroke of inspiration and introduces a song made famous by "the King of folk music, Elvis!" and proceeds to do "Can't Help Falling in Love."

The Euros all love it, they know the song and everyone sings along. Pete approaches the mike ~ Arlo wonders if he's going to scolded for introducing heretical non-folk material ~ but all is well; Pete knows the song, too, and starts playing along on his banjo.

End of story, and then Arlo stats to play and sing. The crowd in San Diego is, of course, well prepared to approve and enjoy, and to sing along themselves just like those Czechs and Poles and Hungarians, etc., of Arlo's story.

Arlo plays a straight 6/8 arpeggio on EVERY measure. No walking bass from one chord to the next, no brushing more than one string at a time, no variation at all except for the chord changes. It's probably quite helpful, of course, that there's a chord change on every measure of this particular song, and that it's such a pretty melody. There's enough opportunity for Arlo (and for the crowd) to express emotion by singing; the bare-bones instrumental part is really very effective.

I've been working this up myself. I find it difficult NOT to throw in an occasional extra bass note, or to strum an occasional extra eighth-note on the treble strings, or to pluck two or three strings at a time here and there. The absolutely plain approach requires a bit of discipline, and when I'm able to observe that discipline, I'm rewarded with an effective bit of accompaniment.

Now, this only works, I suppose, for a player who is able to play in a more complex manner, and who exhibits that ability on other selections. Listening to a whole set played by a novice unable to play anything except the most simple pattern-picking would not be so great an experience.

It's possible, too, I think, that the listener somehow perceives a bit of tension in the playing of someone who may be able to thrown in various variations and flourishes, but who quite deliberately plays one particular number with the utmost degree of simplicity.

*****************

Critics of fingerpicking would do well to check out Tom Rush's performance on that same video. Tom is a member of the plastic-thumbpick-plus-two-metal-fingerpicks school, and uses them to great effect on three very different numbers: two cute/humorous new compositions, and finally his slide-guitar tour-de-force "Panama Limited," which I've heard countless times over the past 40+ years, but had never seen performed. Nice!

Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 01:06 PM

Jumbled up the words in thta last post. Here goes again:

"Prissy" means "prim or prudish" according to my dictionary, confirming how I understand the word.

I'm trying to work out how a guitar technique can be prim or prudish. ("Make sure not to show your legs", perhaps...)

Would I be right in speculating that what is meant is when someone playing a guitar to accompany a song seems to be more concerned with   instrumental technique, rather than with helping get the song across?   In which case, of course, that can happen with any way of playing the guitar, including what I take to be meant by "dynamic rhythmic style".

Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff?
From: GUEST,Pristine Prissy
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 07:43 PM

I really do try to make my picking as prissy as I possibly can in order to secure bookings at any cliquey folk clubs I visit. I find that this has an amazing impression on the organisers who recognise a kindred spirit. I achieve this illusion of superiority by coating all my nails in several layers of Super Glue, which I then hone to perfection. The fistfulls of notes sure do knock 'em dead!   I must also make sure that my expression is as smug as my playing.

And it also has been known to have helped by giving the impression that I am a teacher!

Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 08:00 PM

So what does "prissy" mean there, Pristine Prissy?   Not prim or prudish, I'm sure.

Some similar word maybe - pretty? precise?

Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff?
From: Ian Fyvie
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 08:38 PM

Can I paint a picture of a folk singer type who fits the bill for prissy?

I'm thinking of (several people I've seen actually) an example who sets the finger 'loop tape' going - rate:steady; tone:bland; adds a few melody notes to fit with the singing; sets his head to Tennis - back row Wimbledon Centre Court; and proceeds to issue delightful tones which the organizers then wax lyrical: "marvelous!" (and well said JAYTO).

OK for a floor spot but when you get a whole guest spot filed with the syrup, no wonder newcomers, particularly energetic youngsters think: if this is folk... then I'm off!

No I'm not deriding anyone who puts a bit of dynamism into their performance - however good, basic or non-existant their finger picking - and WILL FLY, an excellent combination of fine technique and dynamic interpretation by the way.

The ones I'm suggesting are the turn off are the ones who you switch on for "NICE track one"; NICE track 2" and so on til we've all dropped off - or gone to the bar.

To M.Ted briefly - see you read my second (short) paragraph. Check the first one for the various styles of finger picking I do actually enjoy playing - I wouldn't bore anyone with the basic prissy style, beside which - there's too much competition anyway!

Ian Fyvie

Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff?
From: M.Ted
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 09:27 PM

You're coming dangerously close to those who have complained in other threads about the "bad" singers who are allowed to perform. Instead, I recommend being thankful for the "lesser players" because they make you look better;-)

Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff?
From: Jayto
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 03:44 AM

Thank you all it is good to be back. I may have some more absences coming up but hopefully not as long. I have been super swamped lately and haven't been able to even check posts. I will try not to be gone so long next time lol missing the cat lol.
cya

Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff?
From: Will Fly
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 04:10 AM

In the end, it all boils down to taste and appropriateness. Whether you choose to play the guitar in a complex or simple manner will depend on what you're trying to achieve and how you want to put it across. If I'm performing a song - say, a music hall number with witty and amusing words - the guitar work takes a definite back seat. Just enough to fill in the harmonic progression of the tune - and no more. If I'm doing something in which a guitar break is appropriate, i.e. where it allows a reflective pause between verses, then slightly more complex guitar work can come out - to subside when the vocal starts up again. And, sometimes, it's nice to think "f*ck it - I'm going to crank it up and have a bit of a thrash!"

It's all part of trying to entertain and, if there wasn't some egocentricity within us, we wouldn't be entertainers - would we?

Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 04:26 AM

Prissy Fingerpicking is a sweet gal - a fantasy figure for many of us.

Prissy (short for Priscilla) is working on her new website and Myspace page. Stoneyport are handling the tour and the word is that the album review in next month's Froots is five star - takes up two columns. Theres talk of a Radio 2 Young Folk Album of the year and Mercury awards in the offing.

Really only what you'd expect from the illegitimate offspring of a prominent folksinging family.

Read the current interview in Acoustic, where it can be revealed she has had her struggles coping with Aminor and the C scale is her next major challenge. these stuggles will be reflected in edgy lyrics. Fans will be releived to know she has conquered her drug problem, and the attempted suicide was just so much press intrigue.

'Prissy Fingerpicking - the voice of modern folkmusic.' The Observer

Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff?
From: Piers Plowman
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 04:29 AM

"[...] these stuggles will be reflected in edgy lyrics [...]"

Well, I hope they reflect the zeitgeist, weelittledrummer.

Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff?
From: Will Fly
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 04:36 AM

WLD - I'd heard you were having an affair with her - and that she wasn't such a fantasy after all. Wasn't that you and her arm-in-arm in the "Daily Mail" photograph? You know, coming out of C# House together?

Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff?
From: mattkeen
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 07:51 AM

Prissy finger picking

The Martin Carthy/Nic Jones style of fingerpicking is really driving and can be very dynamic

Personally am very irritated by scrubbing plectrum style
Flat picking - well thats a different deal all together

Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff?
From: mattkeen
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 07:52 AM

Best plectrum player I have heard recently in Britain is Kris Drever

Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 08:08 AM

So "prissy" here means "over refined" or something like that?

Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 09:09 AM

I read through these threads, and do most of my posting, at the office ("pretending to work") where I don't have audio (and where I would not want my recreational computer usage to be heard, anyway).

So I generally don't play audio and video links when I first encounter them, and don't always remember to look them up on my home computer later the same evening.

That's why it's taken me until this morning to check out Will Fly's work...

It's great! If that's "prissy," I suppose prissiness is good enough for me.

Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff?
From: GUEST, Sminky
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 09:35 AM

Is 'prissiness' confined to guitar playing - or can it apply to any type of instrumental accompaniment? (Just wondering why guitarists are being singled out here.)

Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff?
From: matt milton
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 09:47 AM

Isn't this whole question a bit of an impossible (and arguably slightly pointless) one?

I mean, yes, obviously "prissy" anything is bad. I can't think of any kind of situation where any musician would want anything they played to be prissy, unless it was for satirical purposes. But there are plenty of situations where you would want to pick delicately, or sparsely, or softly.

A delicate ballad is obviously not going to gain anything from someone pinging the strings hard (a la Bert Jansch) and putting in 10 notes per second.

Hell, any kind of fingerpicking would be a nice bonus at the London acoustic singer-songwriter gigs I go to. it's normally just strumming of the most banal and unryhthmic kind.

Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 10:33 AM

There are some quitarists whose styles remind me of someone performing complex acrobatic routines in outer space. It may be impressive, but it'd be a lot more so if there were some gravity involved. If someone's playing doesn't have the musical equivalent of gravity in it, I get bored with it pretty quickly.

Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 12:20 PM

Another way of saying the same thing that BWL seems to be saying: "It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing."

Good solid weighty "swinging" playing can be either simple or complicated, just as lousy unfeeling lightweight monotonous playing can be either simple or complicated.

Technique isn't everyting. Real musicianship required musicality, which involves a certain depth of personal involvement.

Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff?
From: Will Fly
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 12:36 PM

I thought I'd try an experiment.

I've been playing "Freight Train" - on and off - as a practice piece for 40 years or more. I've never recorded it before and I've never played it in public at a gig. I've always thought it too overdone to give a public airing and, in any case, my spirit bubbles up whenever I see the wonderful Libba Cotten playing it (on YouTube).

However, just for a bit of fun, I recorded it this morning. Played it straight for a bit, then just played what came off the top of my head, for better or worse. You can see it at Freight Train. So - you can form your own opinions: prissy, mannered, over-complex, over-simple, no gravity, dynamic, blah, blah.

It may be all, some or none of these things - I just did it for FUN. And that's a huge reason ((for me) to play this sort of stuff on the guitar - it's challenging, unpredictable, enjoyable. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't - but the FUN always has to be there.

Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff?
From: M.Ted
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 01:42 PM

You don't really want us to say it's prissy, and all that, Will. It is very entertaining--I like all the different ways that you run through the tune. You should perform it, and with an amusing and pointed intro, dedicated to Ian;-)

Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff?
From: Will Fly
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 01:50 PM

No - I don't think it's prissy, etc., at all. (And thanks for the kind words, MT.) I'm just making the point that fingerpicking doesn't have to be all one thing. Even within the same piece, within the framework of a tune, within a picking style, you can get variation and light and shade. What I really enjoy is the unknown quantity that always comes when trying to improvise around a tune - a hangover from jazz days, I suppose. Luckily it works most of the time, though I'm all too conscious of when it doesn't!

Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 01:52 PM

"...obviously "prissy" anything is bad...

Well, that's a simple and straightforward definition. But I can't help feeling it isn't exactly correct.

I just don't think prissy is a word that can reasonably be applied to playying the guitar. It's like calling a flavour "squalid", or a sunset "avaricious".

Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff?
From: M.Ted
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 06:28 PM

You could say "Is squalid fingerpicking a turnoff" or "Is avaricious fingerpicking a turnoff" with equal clarity to the original proposition.

Sadly, Ian hasn't come up with anything to show us what he was actually talking about, let alone any examples of his own playing, which would allow us to figure out where he sits in the guitar-picking food chain.

Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 09:44 PM

well something terrible seems to have happened to him - to do with fingerpicking. Its easy to see how that could affect anyone.

Compassion costs nothing.

Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff?
From: M.Ted
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 10:14 PM

Much as I hate to admit it, WLD, you may be right.

Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff?
From: GUEST,Indrani Ananda
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 11:22 PM

I wish I could go to a folk club without the claws and hammers coming out! Observe, listen, and you may perceive that in the main there are 3 categories of performer on trial:
          1/ Flashy 'slick-dick' playing syncopated with the utmost robotic accuracy, mostly bluesy, and usually beloved of guest performers. This type frequently sings in a laid-back toneless way and revels in the way he is wowing the audience with unmelodic but acoustically   embellished boring words.

          2/ Interesting playing, amazing voice but tuneless songs with banal words. A waste of a good voice.

          3/Melodious songs, average playing, not much of a voice, therefore not a lot of appreciation.

                   Which of these has the most to offer? If prissy playing is the yardstick, I'd say no.1. Because this is the "full-of-himself, look-at-me" type of player who creates the wrong mood for traditionsl folk songs to be enjoyed in a quiet room or bar.

                   Oh, and there is a fourth category -

          4/ Competent playing, average voice, original songs with good lyrics. In this category the song itself is dominant, so there is no need for prissy playing.

                     This last category is doomed, it seems, and fails to be recognised without the frenetic claw hammer (silly name!) drive of the bass plucking.

                     Guess which category I am in.

                                                 Indrani.

                     PS. Mc.Grath of Harlow - Have you started a new thread here? Flavours can indeed be squalid, as sunsets can be avaricious! Have you ever heard the sunrise? I have -
I know this - I am synaesthetic.

Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff?
From: Will Fly
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 04:10 AM

I think there's a wider question underlying this thread - which itself, I believe, was started as an offshoot of the still-running "Why folk clubs are dying" discussion. It's a question of performance and the motives behind it. I started playing guitar and performing in folk clubs nearly 45 years ago and, after 40+ years of playing for cash in jazz/funk/blues/rock'n roll bands - I've joined an old friend in his ceilidh band. I've also re-entered the folk world, just for fun, in the last two years. The bands that I played in played for cash and for the enjoyment of the music. Our aims, in the main, were to see that the people footing our bill got their money's-worth, that as many of the audience as possible enjoyed what we played and that - at the end of the session, they went home having had a good time. And if we'd had a good time as well, that was a bonus. And a decent fee was an extra bonus!

Now I'm back, here and there, in the world of folk clubs, singarounds and acoustic sessions, has my attitude changed? Not one whit. If you stand up in public and perform, whether there's cash involved or not, you have to ask yourself some very honest questions. Why do you perform?

1. Do you want all eyes on you - the roar of the greasepaint, the smell of the crowd?
2. Do you want to show an audience something musically that it hasn't heard before?
3. Do you want to bring a message of some sort to the audience?
4. Do you want to tell a story?
5. Do you want to be a musical competitor?
6. Do you want to make money?
7. Do you want to keep the sacred flame of the tradition burning?
8. Do you want to have fun?
9. Do you want to have a cathartic experience?
10. Do you want to compensate for shortcomings in your life?
11. Do you want to entertain the audience?
12. Do you want to educate the audience?
etc....

Add your own questions to the list. Performing is a mixture of any of these elements - the particular mix being different for any individual. BUT - if you answer "No" to very many of these questions, then ask yourself this: What am I doing here in front of these people?. There has to be a motive somewhere - and it might not always be the one you think it is.

In the jazz world (for example), there has always been a long history of "cutting" - of musicians trying to outdo each other on stage. It happened in New Orleans, at the very beginnings of jazz, with bands playing in competition with each other. Barrelhouse, stride and boogie-woogie pianists would have cutting contests at rent parties or in clubs, seeing who could outplay the other. Just read Alan Lomax's "Mister Jelly Lord" or Rudi Blesh's "They All Played Ragtime" to get an idea of it. Soloist tried to top out another soloist in band playing - which can be exhilarating.

Most musicians, whether consciously or unconsciously, are competitive. You may not think you are - you may think this is nonsense - but there has to be a competitive element in music, or you will never progress. "Competition", by the way, means competing with yourself. We improve as musicians by competing with previous versions of outself. We play a piece, or sing a song and - if we've any sense of growth, we try and improve on it. We compete with ourselves subconsciously - if we don't, then we never improve, we lose the vital spark and we lose the audience. And we do have an audience don't we? If you don't want an audience, then stay at home and sing to the mirror.

There is a difference between being a very good performer and being a gross egotist - though it can be a very thin line. There's a very true saying: "You may think you're good, but there's always somebody better..." But it's much healthier, IMHO, to look at yourself seriously and ask yourself why you perform the way you do, how can you do it to the best of your ability, and why you're there in the first place - and what you're bringing to the party.

Apologies for the long rant - but I believe passionately that we should try to make good music and have a healthy and honest understanding of why we do it.

Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff?
From: matt milton
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 04:32 AM

I heard some Simon & Garfunkel songs on the radio last night for the first time in years and was suprised that I quite enjoyed them – I'd always thought of them as being a little on the prissy side. I suppose that's about as close as I can imagine to what Ian was thinking of. Paul Simon is a solid, laidback fingerpicker who never breaks a sweat.

Much better is someone like Ed Trickell – I only thought of him because I'm listening to his 1960s album "the telling takes me home" (wonderful stuff) a lot right now. Simple, gentle fingerpicking, very accomplished but nothing fancy. Entirely appropriate, very intimate sounding. That kind of laidback fingerpicking can sound quite sensual when its close-mic'd.

Actually, guitars often sound prissiest to me when they're being played in their most technically accomplished and flashy way. A lot of neo-classical guitar playing sounds prissy to me; quite a bit of mainstream jazz guitar; a lot of the new flamenco players too. (obviously I'm not thinking of people like Ramon Montoya or Django Reinhardt here) And while I love Baden Powell on Os Afro Sambas, pretty much everything else he's recorded sounds like he's playing with a furrowed brow and a very stiff neck – all too staid.

Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 05:35 AM

Its the nature of the folkscene(in fact a treasured part) that there are all sorts of herberts turning up with all sorts of strange motives for being there.

I rather like that bit - guessing what they're up to.

Folkmusic's all right, but it should never get in the way of a good evening in the pub, with everybody having a good sing. At my birthday party - the most succesful acts of the evening (for the non folkies) were the fiddle player who forgot how the song went he was about to play and which he had just given a lengthy introduction to, and the guitarist who thought his custom made guitar was out of tune, but had actually forgotten how to play A minor chord.

I don't suppose many people will agree. But its surely better to be good humoured, than sitting there fuming at humanity because they haven't got the same predjudices about folkmusic that you have.

Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff?
From: Will Fly
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 05:57 AM

Al - with you all the way here. That's why acoustic sessions - in the widest sense of the words - can be such great fun. Everyone gets to play a lot if they want to and are able - newbies get to learn stuff by playing along - the casual johnnies at the bar can talk, laugh, sing, barrack - the crack can be excellent - good humour prevails - and you can hear some bloody good music from people giving it their heart!

Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff?
From: M.Ted
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 09:21 AM

Some musicians are really good, some are OK, and some are...well, they just are. Part of what differentiates is technical ability, part of it is making choices, and some of it is talent.

I used to play in the stage band for an ethnic dance company, and when I signed on, the director told me,"We have some pieces for the "A" dancers and some pieces for the "B" dancers. Everyone knows which is which but the "B" dancers." Don't know why that occurs to me just now, but it does...

Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff?
From: Jayto
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 11:54 AM

What really turns me off with fingerpicking is lack of feeling. I hear far to many focus on technique and strip it of all emotion. You remove the emotion from any music and it is a major turnoff to me. I could care less about hearing a perfectly executed piece of insanely difficult fingerpicking if it lacks feeling. I don't care how over the top tough it is to perform or how perfect it is played. Mistakes here and there are just part of the game. I hear people all the time that you can tell have practiced a piece of music night and day for months on end. They hit it perfect but have no emotion in it at all. To me that is not music. Music to me is self expression not perfection. I never feel perfect so guess what it won't always sound perfect lol. That is not a cop out to justify not practicing or playing sloppy though. I hear things as I play a piece that I don't hear other times and the way I feel at the time has alot to do with it. When I hear a variation I will go for it. I may not always get it though. I may flub up trying to play it but I still go for it. The reason is that is an emotion I that needs to come out in the song at that time. I never pause to think if I will be able to pull it off I just let my muse guide me. I wish more musicians did this. Safety should not be in a performing musicians vocabulary in my opinion lol.
Here's a quote "To live a creative life one must first lose their fear of being wrong." I can't remember who said it but I agree 100%. Music is self expression and if you are not expressing anything other than I have practiced non-stop for a year then I really don't care about hearing it. I know this may ruffle some feathers (I have been on the cat for a while now lol) but some of you know I am good at that lol.
cya
JT

Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 12:14 PM

100