MIDI files - a question of etiquette

Subject: MIDI files - a question of etiquette
From: Tangledwood
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 12:36 AM

The facts so far:
A couple of well respected folk performers have created a multi-part vocal arrangement of a song written by another well respected performer and song writer and posted the score for this arrangement on their website.
To help me understand what they have done I have made a midi file of the arrangement.

Now the hypothetical question:
Mudcatters share and post lyrics, words, chords etc (which is how I found the site in the first place).
If a question came up relating to the above-mentioned song and the midi file was relevant I could post it to some private webspace and provide the link.
I don't believe that there would be copyright considerations but before posting should I as a matter of courtesy:
a) obtain permission from the original writer?
b) obtain permission from the arrangers?
c) no permission required, or expected to be sought, but credit both other parties with the origin?

The situation may never arise but as I've only recently started getting involved in the folk scene I'm interested in learning some of the etiquette and expectations, as well as the music. :)

Mal

Subject: RE: MIDI files - a question of etiquette
From: pavane
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 04:53 AM

Of course there are copyright issues. Copyright automatically belongs to the composer. Did the arrangers have his/her permission? But if not, that is their problem.

For your version:
If you want to provide it to other people, then legally
a) Yes
b) Yes

If you only created it for your own research, probably not.

Subject: RE: MIDI files - a question of etiquette
From: Nick
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 05:40 AM

Personally I would ask the people who created it and whether it would concern them. I have personally found that complete strangers have been remarkably positive when I've asked them for things on the internet or as a response to me showing an interest in what they have done.

I'd send something along the lines of "I recently came across your arrangement of XXXXX by XXXXX and in order to understand it better I have made a midi file of it. I enclose a copy. If [in the following circumstances] I was to send it to someone would this be ok with you? I would of course credit what the original source was" - I'd be surprised if you got a negative reaction.

Some years ago I ran a web site in a completely different area to music and ran a competition on it for writers at one point. I contacted various other sites who provided an astounding range of prizes; asked various people to judge it which they did; etc Some time afterwards another person who ran a site asked me as to how I managed to get the array of prizes and seemed genuinely surprised when I told them that I just asked people if they would help!

And more recently I contacted a performer about a song that he had written (I won't mention his name, not because I don't want to credit him for his kindness but so that others don't expect similar treatment!) as I had liked it when a friend sang it but I couldn't find the words anywhere or a recording or anything. I finally found him through a myspace page and contacted him. He not only put me right on the words but sent me a CD through the post which included the song.

Subject: RE: MIDI files - a question of etiquette
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 06:11 AM

I believe that there is no copyright infringement in pointing to something that is already in the public domain (on the internet for example), except possibly by the person who put it there in the first place.

Having said that, politeness costs nothing and I would agree with the posters above.

Subject: RE: MIDI files - a question of etiquette
From: pavane
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 06:49 AM

But the MIDI file is NOT yet in the public domain. And just because something has been published (with or without permission), that does not put it in the 'public domain' for copyright purposes either.

Subject: RE: MIDI files - a question of etiquette
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 08:22 AM

People can claim copyright for their arrangements of public domain material, which then become subject to the same legal restrictions.

Subject: RE: MIDI files - a question of etiquette
From: pavane
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 08:27 AM

There is also nothing to stop people claiming AUTHORSHIP of traditional material, as has been discussed before. There are several notorious examples.

Subject: RE: MIDI files - a question of etiquette
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 08:35 AM

There sure are!! Happens here in Ireland too - lots of ringside fun when someone gets outed.

Subject: RE: MIDI files - a question of etiquette
From: pavane
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 08:52 AM

Bob Dylan did a bit too - rewrote Leaving of Liverpool by leaving out the reference to Liverpool! But that's covered elsewhere.

Subject: RE: MIDI files - a question of etiquette
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 01:16 PM

I always ask permission and 99% of the time the answer is "yes".
Common courtesy goes a long way in this business.

                                                   SOL

Subject: RE: MIDI files - a question of etiquette
From: Tangledwood
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 05:35 PM

"Of course there are copyright issues. Copyright automatically belongs to the composer" - Pavane

Of course! Please excuse my poor terminology. The distinction that I meant to make was that it would not be a posting of a track from a CD which would definitely not be legal. It would have to be an exceptional midi file to be considered a "public performance" and entertainment value in it's own right.

Thank you all for your advice. I certainly agree that courtesy costs nothing and it is how I would normally do things. I guess I was thinking of the situation of the writer and/or arrangers being on tour (which is the case at present) and not able to reply straight away. During the delay the moment in the forum thread would be lost. Not to worry - it's all hypothetical anyway.

Thank you
Mal

Subject: RE: MIDI files - a question of etiquette
From: Peace
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 06:26 PM

Ask an ye shall receive, mos' the time.

Tell me this: If it was your creation and someone just posted it without your permission, would you not feel a bit ticked?

Subject: RE: MIDI files - a question of etiquette
From: Tangledwood
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 07:10 PM

Certainly I would - if somebody else posted the file that I had put together.
Up until now my experience of sharing creations via the internet has been with another hobby and involves repainting models in simulator games. Frequently somebody will make a "paintkit" which contains the detailing and others will apply different paint schemes to it. Usually the painter will give due credit to the creator of the kit but will not require permission to use it.
I see that as a parallel to the music score/midi situation but wanted to confirm the expectations. I now know! :)

Mal

Subject: RE: MIDI files - a question of etiquette
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 09:17 PM

In the early, early, days ... I posted a similar question ... since then I am always an alias ... EVERYWHERE !!! Trust WAS betrayed. It was a lesson well learned. Thank You MAX!!!

Push comes to shove MaxDickJoeSusan are not journalists with six figure incomes ... they are simple folk, a simple conduit for simple information.

ADVICE:
1. Mudcat is NOT a FILE SERVER - There are Thousands Globally available:

....A. YouTube
....B. PhotoBucket
....C. FileShare
....D. LiveLeak
....E. Flicker
....F. Your OWN isp provider - imagine that!! (free with subscription - most folk on this forum have one - and they select others ... out of convenience, ignorance, ambivalence (for most)but they are paying for a "Web Storage Area" and do not access it.

As an "academnic," "free speech," "public forum," "discussion platform," within the United States of America - The Mudcat Cafe generally, meets the guidelines of "public discourse" and "right of assembly."

Check the rules for your Country, County, and City ... the may VARY. I.E. - at this immediate moment in history - a set of phrases by the Dahli Lama - set to music - posted on the Mudcat - accessed and linked from China may find you in prison.

SINCERELY,

You do not want a woven coven of wicked wiccans wacking your cat off in the mud.

Subject: RE: MIDI files - a question of etiquette
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 04:27 AM

Or them in prison for "illegal" downloading. Good point, Gargoyle. Thanks -

Bonnie in The People's Republic of Cork (we even have the T-shirts to prove it)

Subject: RE: MIDI files - a question of etiquette
From: pavane
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 04:32 AM

Tangledwood,
It doesn't matter HOW poor the file, if it is distributed, it is still an infringement of copyright.

There are DIFFERENT copyrights involved, including (but not limited to)

1. Copyright in the composition
Applies to ANY format in which the composition (Song, tune, book, picture) is represented, i.e. book, score, MIDI, MP3, etc

Author's copyright. May not be applicable to songs more than 100 years old.

Arranger's copright can be separate, for a SPECIFIC arrangement, even if there is NO copyright on the song.

2. Copyright in the performance
Applies to a SPECIFIC performance as a recording in any format (Like your MIDI file).
Held by the artist or publisher of the recording.

Either, or both, types may apply to a performance.

Once a song is PUBLISHED, as a score, text, or recording, you do not need PERMISSION to record it yourself, but you must pay royalties to the owner of the copyright if you distribute the recording in ANY format.

I hope this clarifies it, and if I have got anything wrong, I am sure someone will correct me. Also, note that copyright law varies from country to country, such as the length of time a copyright lasts.


Royalties

Subject: RE: MIDI files - a question of etiquette
From: wysiwyg
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 09:13 AM

Sometimes a thread request is discreetly addressed via a PM, if the request comes from someone trustworthy who will honor whatever restrictions are made.

~S~

Subject: RE: MIDI files - a question of etiquette
From: Tangledwood
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 06:10 PM

Thanks Pavane, that pretty well pins it all down I think. If I don't share nuthin' I don't get into trouble.

WYSIWYG - understood!

Subject: RE: MIDI files - a question of etiquette
From: Rowan
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 06:37 PM

If I don't share nuthin' I don't get into trouble.

In the context of the thread's title, Tangledwood's comment is perfectly reasonable and prudent but when applied to one's own creations it can be counterproductive. I'm well aware that anyone who earns their living from their creations would be foolish to share, willy nilly, without recompense, but there are some creations where sharing, free of monetary recompense is desirable. The Creative Commons concept ought to be considered and explored in these circumstances. End of thread drift.

Cheers, Rowan