mode of flat 3 and#7

Subject: mode of flat 3 and#7
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 07:35 AM

is this scale used at all?
for example ,instead of Dmajor,d e fnat g a b c#d.http://www.dickmiles.com

Subject: RE: mode of flat 3 and#7
From: GUEST,KevinP
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 07:43 AM

Dick,
Thats a harmonic minor scale, extensively found in classical music. I aso find it sounds 'jazzy' and use it to solo in songs like 'Summertime' and Richard Thompson's 'Al Bowley's in Heaven'. You can sometimes flatten the seventh on the way down the scale, but sharpen it again on the way up.

See here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minor_scale

cheers
KP

Subject: RE: mode of flat 3 and#7
From: dwditty
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 07:50 AM

OK, who let the musicians in the room. : )

dw

Subject: RE: mode of flat 3 and#7
From: G-Force
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 09:09 AM

In classical music it's a harmonic minor scale in the upward direction. Coming down you would flatten the seventh and sixth.

Subject: RE: mode of flat 3 and#7
From: TheSnail
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 09:36 AM

With a b natural as the Captain has given it, that's an ascending melodic minor. c natural and b flat going down.

Subject: RE: mode of flat 3 and#7
From: G-Force
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 09:37 AM

No it's not. Captain had B natural and C sharp.

Subject: RE: mode of flat 3 and#7
From: TheSnail
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 10:21 AM

Yep. Harmonic D minor, which is the relative minor of F major, would have B flat.

Subject: RE: mode of flat 3 and#7
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 11:28 AM

No, no. The question is the post asks about a scale with these notes (and I quote)

d e fnat g a b c# d.

What we have here is a 'scale' where the only black note is a C#.

That doesn't fit any popular pattern that I've ever learned, Captain. By 'popular pattern' I mean a major scale, minor scale or mode, such as one learns from a teacher or finds in a book about music history.

However, I play a lot of early music, and over the years I have come across a few tunes which do this. (Can't think of which ones right now.)

Were they written because some early musician had an independent streak and wanted it that way? Or was somebody's instrument in bad shape and could play a C# but not a C? We'll never know. Nonetheless, it's great fun to come across unusual music like this and realize you are sharing its uniqueness with someone who lived 400 years ago.

Subject: RE: mode of flat 3 and#7
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 11:31 AM

PS I didn't go to your link to Dick Miles because I'm tired of music sites that interfere with my MIDI set up. (see tech thread 'youtube versus MIDI). Decided not to risk it.

What's on that site that you wanted to share?

Subject: RE: mode of flat 3 and#7
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 12:02 PM

Leeneia, its a secret.

Subject: RE: mode of flat 3 and#7
From: TheSnail
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 12:08 PM

This site is quite useful http://www.looknohands.com/chordhouse/piano/

In the Scales box on the right, select D and Melodic Minor (Ascending).

Subject: RE: mode of flat 3 and#7
From: GUEST,highlandman at work
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 02:07 PM

Here's my understanding, meager though it may be:
d e f g a b c# d' = d melodic minor ascending
d' c bb a g f e d = d melodic minor descending
d e f g a bb c# d' = d harmonic minor (rarely used for melodies unless you're after a pseudo eastern european sound)
d e f g a b c d' = d dorian
These are the standard "textbook" modes on d.
What you might have, Captain, is a d dorian with a leading tone:
c# d e f g a b
If the notes in the tune are actually arranged that way (so the melody doesn't actually go above b, but you occasionally have d-c#-d) then I'd call it dorian with leading tone.
This is fairly common in American Sacred Harp tunes, actually. In fact some of them have
c# d e f g a b c (where the figure would go a b c b a, never up to the high d' from the c natural). It's a dorian scale except for the d-c#-d final cadences.
-Glenn

Subject: RE: mode of flat 3 and#7
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 03:04 PM

It can't be a D scale or any of its relatives because it hasn't got an F# in it.

Subject: RE: mode of flat 3 and#7
From: TheSnail
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 03:10 PM

Captain Birdseye

d e fnat g a b c#d

GUEST,highlandman at work

d e f g a b c# d' = d melodic minor ascending

Correct. What is the problem?

Subject: RE: mode of flat 3 and#7
From: GUEST,highlandman still at work
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 05:12 PM

Not a problem.
Just that a melodic minor scale really consists of both of its directions. You don't just sing up the scale and never come down, and you don't go down the ascending scale (or the scale police will come after you I expect).
It's a matter of which direction each note in a particular scale tends to lead for its resolution. If you play them I think you will hear what I mean.
If anyone thinks this is too nit-picky you are in all probability correct. I'm just that way.
-Glenn

Subject: RE: mode of flat 3 and#7
From: TheSnail
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 06:14 PM

What you say is very true, highlandman. It does not alter the fact that the scale that Captain Birdseye gave us is the ascending melodic D minor. Out of the context of the actual melody, it is impossible to say more.

Subject: RE: mode of flat 3 and#7
From: Anglo
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 11:59 PM

There is no reason why, if you so choose, you can't sing a descending scale using the notes of the ascending melodic minor. I've heard some people write tunes that do this, and often use the flatted notes as well in a way not consistent with the "traditional" classical minor scale.

Subject: RE: mode of flat 3 and#7
From: Don Firth
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 12:57 AM

Okay, folks. . . .

Right out of the music theory textbook that I have here in my lap.

D-E-F-G-A-Bb-C- D    —    This is D natural minor. Uses the same notes as its relative major, F. It's the same both upward and downward.

D-E-F-G-A-Bb-C#-D   —    This is D harmonicminor. And it is the same both upward and downward.

D-E-F-G-A-B(nat)-C#-D    —    This is the D melodic minor. Going up, the only difference between it and a D major scale is that the F is natural (in D major, the F is sharp). NOW: on the way back down, it's D-C(nat)-Bb-A-G-F-E-D.

The natural minor shares the same scale as its relative major.

The harmonic minor came into use because the melodic minor has no "leading tone." The "leading tone" is the seventh note of a scale, a half-step below the tonic (key) note, and harmonically, it creates a strong upward pull, calling for resolution to the tonic note or chord. BUT—it creates an augmented second interval between the sixth and seventh notes of the scale. If used consistently within a piece of music, it gives the piece a characteristic Middle-Eastern sound, which may not be desirable. So—

This called for the development of the melodic minor scale. Going upward, it sounds minor because of the third degree of the scale, then moves smoothly upward without the jump between the sixth and seventh degrees, and the seventh degree is a proper leading tone. On the way back down, it returns to the same scale as the natural minor (otherwise, it would sound like a major scale until you hit the third, which might sound a bit odd.

It's in the book.

Got all that?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: mode of flat 3 and#7
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 01:06 AM

Glad to see you finally turned up talking (musical) sense as usual, Don.

Saved me the hassle, thanks!

It's a bastard when you HAVE had the training, but no one will listen because they 'think they know it all', isn't it? :-)

:-P