US TV, Books, & Films - what they say about us

Subject: US TV, Books, & Films - what they say about us
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 27 Oct 25 - 02:02 PM

I have no idea where this might travel conversationally, but there are a couple of items that have met in a literary sense, passing one text over another. I'll add "books" to the title if it can fit.

First the book: In a Narrow Grave: Essays on Texas by Larry McMurtry. For context, this book was published in 1968, and the essays were all written before that year, some much earlier.

This paragraph sparked this thread; it is from the essay "Cowboys, Movies, Myths, & Cadillacs: An Excursus on Ritual Forms in the Western Movie."

No doubt high mimetic Westerns will continue to be made as long as John Wayne is acting—he wouldn't fit in any other mode—but in number they are declining, and the figure of the Westerner is gradually being challenged by more modern figures. At the moment, the Secret Agent seems to be dominant. In time, of course, we can expect to see the conquest of space (if we really conquer it) take over the place in the American mythos now held by the winning of the West, but that day has not yet come. If one agrees with Warshow (and I do) that one of the reasons the Western has maintained its hold on our imagination is because it offers an acceptable orientation to violence, then it is easy to see why the Secret Agent is so popular just now. An Urban Age demands an urban figure: the Secret Agent is an updated Gunfighter. James Bond has appropriated the skills of the Gunfighter and added urbanity and cosmopolitanism. Napoleon Solo and Matt Dillon both work for the betterment of civilization, but the Man from U.N.C.L.E. makes the Marshal seem as old-fashioned and domestic as Fibber McGee and Molly. In the former the violence, besides being aestheticized, has been brought into line with the times. If only there are some bad Indians out there in space, on a planet we need, then eventually the Spaceman's hour will come. (55-56)

You have to think back through the pre-Internet world and remember where we were. In 1968 Lyndon Johnson was the president, the Vietnam War was still underway and the Tet Offensive was big that year, North Korea captured the USS Pueblo, the US Civil Rights movement was in high gear, Martin Luther King, Jr. was assassinated, as was Robert F. Kennedy, Apollo 8 orbited the moon. Nuclear weapons were still being tested in the desert in Nevada. The Beatles White Album was released and Daniel Craig was born. On Star Trek the first interracial kiss occurred on American television.

A local television channel plays vintage crime dramas, and over the years I've watched many of them, though some are so violent and perverse in their plotting that I now avoid them (think Criminal Minds). Not discussed here are the ones that were on cable I never watched (The Sopranos, Breaking Bad) and don't appear on these vintage programming channels now. There were whole years in graduate school and raising small children that I didn't sit down to watch much mainstream broadcast TV, so have been catching up. This is generally about network television programming and popular films since 1968.

A couple of programs that I have mixed feelings about began playing this year on one network of reruns. The Gilmore Girls is said to be great, but I find it trite. And one I was ignoring because it comes on kind of late, but have been sucked in to understanding how it was written, is Homicide: Life on the Street. The conversations between events are fascinating, and the fact that they don't always get the criminal, that there are a lot accommodations that happen, that at best sometimes all they can say is "we'll be watching you."

So much has happened that McMurtry described, to the point that the speculated upon space Indian territory dramas such as Star Wars franchises and Star Trek and other space operas may have about run their course. Police procedurals come and go, as do law and medical dramas. They fight with lasers, guns, scalpels, and torts.

The type of storytelling, the variety of heroic figures, whose stories get told, what dogma we are fed, it's all in the mix.

Thoughts?

Subject: RE: US TV, Books, & Films - what they say about us
From: meself
Date: 27 Oct 25 - 03:50 PM

I once read a bit from an interview with some minor actor, in which he said: "I don't watch movies to get my political opinions; I watch them to see the good guys win and the bad guys lose." Me, too - even if I sometimes have reservations about who those "good guys" are.

That said, I think Hollywood has a lot to answer for in perpetuating and promoting, non-stop, the idea that gun violence is inevitably the solution.

Subject: RE: US TV, Books, & Films - what they say about us
From: keberoxu
Date: 28 Oct 25 - 06:49 PM

I can also live without the high-speed car chases
and the scenes of demolition ...
that's one reason I stopped watching films altogether.
Books are another story.

Subject: RE: US TV, Books, & Films - what they say about us
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 28 Oct 25 - 10:27 PM

I looked back at this after a day or two and while it packs in a lot of content to consider, I suspect simply examining the archetypes involved - how cowboys have evolved - is a basis for examining where our programs have evolved.

I've read further in the essays, and realized that volume the introduction (written in 2018) that discusses McMurtry's being "tone-deaf" in the discussion of fiddle contests was being polite, and has little to do with music.

Subject: RE: US TV, Books, & Films - what they say about us
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Oct 25 - 08:31 AM

" If only there are some bad Indians out there in space, on a planet we need, then eventually the Spaceman's hour will come."

This is the movie Avatar!



fake Reality TV is the cheapest schlock to produce.
Its even how Trump came to power with 'youre fired!

Subject: RE: US TV, Books, & Films - what they say about us
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 29 Oct 25 - 10:38 AM

You may have noted I made no mention of "reality TV." I never watch it, just as I ignore most game shows. (I sometimes watch Jeopardy - it's much easier to give the correct question when watching from home.)

Avatar, yes, but also much of the Star Wars enterprise - the whole colonial experience and extracting resources.

Subject: RE: US TV, Books, & Films - what they say about us
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 29 Oct 25 - 12:02 PM

*Agree*, Donuel. Even Herself now goes straight past The Alleged Housewives of Greater Bitchington when she's channel-surfing on Freeview, complaining all the while about there being 57 channels and nothin' on.

Meanwhile, methunk shopping channels and pr0n must be the cheapest space-fillers because there's so damn many of them. It's getting worse .... but then perhaps it always did, as istr complaints of the same form about the yoof of the day in ancient Rome. Mebbe what it all says about us is that there's too few of us who aren't content to put up with enshittification (or even notice it), and who try to fight the blingocracy.

Ach, Nick the Greek had it right: "All of life is six-to-five against."

Subject: RE: US TV, Books, & Films - what they say about us
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 22 Nov 25 - 09:51 AM

Over the course of the last week we saw six nights of two-hour episodes of Ken Burns' latest production, The American Revolution.

Did I ever know that the Revolutionary War lasted as long as it did, or like so many people assumed it was all done and dusted in 1776? Yes, I knew about Yorktown, but not in the complex way this program led up to it.

This was a "warts and all" representation of the period, how we started with the Declaration of Independence and from there how it unfolded. The brutality of everyone, including George Washington (what he did to the American Indians near the end of the war was pretty much genocide - erasing their communities in a wide swath of what is now New York State.) That the British held out, after defeat, and were more compassionate toward the formerly enslaved people who fought with them. Washington kept them together so their owners could retrieve them (and two were returned to his home, plus five to Jefferson) while the British negotiated that anyone who served with them for at least a year was given a document that declared them free.

The diagrams of the fields of battle were well-designed so you could see what they were talking about. This in particular on the Battle of Long Island - did I know about that? - and how troops pulled their own form of Dunkirk, 9000 troops and horses and guns across the East River from Brooklyn to Manhattan overnight (conducted by any military leader available with maritime experience).

Anyway, it was a stark representation of a period in time that aligns with the upcoming 250th anniversary since the Declaration of Independence (also called the semiquincentennial or the quarter millennium, etc.) And a reminder of what our politics and the jerk in the White House is doing to us today. Trump is his own version of Benedict Arnold, but beholden only to his family's pocketbook. It would be wonderful if this inspired more people to speak up, protest, vote, and act locally to make a difference. The state of New Jersey was pivotal in putting a stop to the British carnage several times, they were particularly active and aggrieved by the events of the day. And when the group of settlers poured east from "Indian lands" to take on the Loyalists, it was like the Ghost Army in the Lord of the Rings (the film version, not the book), pouring into the area and dispatching the Loyalists. The program took time to sum up events after the war, there was no Reconstruction like after the Civil War, but they had the business of creating a nation of disparate states and writing a Constitution by Deists who had the welfare of the nation in mind. One that hopefully will seem all the more important today as it is shredded by Christian Nationalists.

Subject: RE: US TV, Books, & Films - what they say about us
From: pattyClink
Date: 22 Nov 25 - 11:23 AM

Sorry I had not seen this thread before. If you read film history you know that we literally had a propaganda program in the 1930s-50s, designed to fill us all with Americanism and anti-communism, government and studios working together to preserve the capitalist order lest labor ever try to get the upper hand. Generations later, we still think capitalism is inherently good and restraining it is un-American.

Later, like 1980s-present, there has been another layer of brain-training going on, by the tremendous flood of cop/detective/spy/soldier shows. Those in authority are always right, and are under siege by incredibly bad guys, and their soldiers/detectives/cops/spies must use brains and brawn and technology to prevail, and bend the law when necessary. It places us all in the mindframe of 'we must defend the President/ambassador/american interests at all costs'. Only now with the masked ICE thugs do we see that authority is not always the good guy.

As far as the Revolution, I learned a lot about it back when the play 1776 came out, and then spent a lot of time in Williamsburg. I wasn't excited about the simpleminded film The Patriot crushing the war's plotline into the usual Hollywood formula. Maybe we'd all know more about our rights and our revolutionary struggles if there had been a whole raft of better films and TV shows made about it.

And it's a very unpopular view, but I don't like everyone deciding that Ken Burn's personal edit of history should become our central accepted truth. I hope the work gets some new people interested in American history, of course.

Subject: RE: US TV, Books, & Films - what they say about us
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 22 Nov 25 - 11:51 AM

I saw this current production partly as an antidote to some of what people have criticized in the past, not all voices included. The thing about having the time to research and a large amount of time to present is that it gives viewers a starting point for aspects of it they wish to pursue. No one historian is going to tell the ultimate story, the final draft of events retold.

The opening post wound its way down to the point that got me thinking about representation on TV - Homicide Life on the Street is one I have watched only a few times but it is different, it doesn't let them always be right and they don't always get the bad guy. I should watch the series through from the beginning if it is streaming somewhere because on broadcast television it's on too late at night to stay up for.

Subject: RE: US TV, Books, & Films - what they say about us
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 23 Nov 25 - 11:43 AM

> Generations later, we still think capitalism is inherently
> good and restraining it is un-American.

Corrollary: Socialism -> Communism -> Evil. I've much more to say on that, but space precludes elucidation of the Overton window.

Subject: RE: US TV, Books, & Films - what they say about us
From: Bill D
Date: 23 Nov 25 - 01:26 PM

I have just finished watching "The American Revolution", and have recorded all 6 episodes. I intend to re-watch some, if not all, of them again. The detail is amazing. Yes, like you SRS, I knew about Cornwallis at Yorktown, but had no idea of the nuances of history leading up to it.
   I knew the French 'helped' us win the revolution, but the fortunate timing of their back and forth voyages to the Caribbean and the decisions of Rochambeau about where to position his ships was fascinating.
All thru the series, it was interesting to see how most of the main characters, from George III to George Washington to Ben Franklin to Benedict Arnold...etc. had their good AND bad sides. This was the first time I ever realized how the allegiances and fortunes of so many indigenous Native American tribes affected the progress of events.
   And of course, the changing status of Loyalists vs. Patriots coupled with changing situations of Blacks re:free and enslaved was a crucial aspect of the entire history. Even the Boston Tea Party that we all thought we knew about had subtle details I never understood.
All through the series, various recurring mention of little known individuals like John Greenwood, the boy fifer and the Black man who became Washington's dentist filled out my sense of how society grew and functioned as the revolution progressed.
   I have watched Ken Burns' productions for years, but he and his team have outdone themselves this time. Just the details of how the Declaration and Constitution were created could make a stand-alone series.

   There are SO many themes and historical facts explored in this latest amazing production, that I could type for days, running back and forth to the TV to re-run various episodes to remind me of names and details.
   Any American who cares about the history and character of the country should find the time to watch the series.

Subject: RE: US TV, Books, & Films - what they say about us
From: Bill D
Date: 23 Nov 25 - 01:36 PM

I forgot to mention that I had never heard how the entire revolution was affected by a serious, ongoing Smallpox epidemic.

Subject: RE: US TV, Books, & Films - what they say about us
From: Lighter
Date: 23 Nov 25 - 03:56 PM

What did nineteenth-century books say about those people? Were they that much different from us? If so, why and how?

1000 words, due Friday.

Subject: RE: US TV, Books, & Films - what they say about us
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Nov 25 - 09:28 AM

"Those people"?
If you mean the people who lived during the revolution, yes... they were very different in their thinking about how countries should be governed.
   The revolution was in part an exercise in re-thinking the idea of autocracy. Even the majority those who didn't want kings still believed in racial superiority and supported slavery.
   The place of women in society was still tightly controlled.
You don't want to read a full 1000 word essay of my opinions. ;>)

Subject: RE: US TV, Books, & Films - what they say about us
From: Lighter
Date: 24 Nov 25 - 10:25 AM

Actually, Bill, I meant nineteenth-century people, but the principle is the same.

And the question isn't restricted to politics. The attitudes and conventions of nineteenth-century American literature are far different from those of today's books, films, etc.

So what does that say about them as a culture or society? Anything much?

How much does popular culture tell us about its consumers? Or does it tell us only about popular culture?

500 words will do.

Subject: RE: US TV, Books, & Films - what they say about us
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 24 Nov 25 - 11:17 AM

I've been reading books by Adam Minter this year. First was Junkyard Planet: Travels in the Billion-Dollar Trash Trade, and now Secondhand: Travels in the New Global Garage Sale. Most of the time he's a journalist for trade publications that I wouldn't come across, but these two books are eye-openers about how we are as a society - a consumer society. It's the kind of story I'd like to see someone like Michael Moore tackle in his documentaries - spend time with Minter researching these books and articles. About Secondhand:

When you drop a box of unwanted items off at the local thrift store, where do they go? Probably across the country--or even halfway across the world--to people and places eager to reuse what you don’t want.

In Secondhand, Adam Minter delves into the vast, multibillion-dollar industry that resells used stuff around the world. He follows the trail of unwanted objects from the closets, garages, and storage units of Middle America to huge used-goods markets in Canada, Mexico, Japan, Ghana, India, Malaysia, and beyond. Secondhand takes us through the often painful and heartbreaking process of cleaning out a lifetime’s worth of possessions and shows that used stuff still has a place in a world that values the new and shiny--it entertains us, makes fortunes, fulfills needs, and transforms the way we live and work.

That much of the world lives for used clothes, books, devices, and appliances discarded in the US, in Japan, and in Europe, there is something to be said about the level of entitlement to use and discard so much stuff, and in the business model that has generated planned obsolescence in appliances, disposable fast fashion, and private equity in general.

He refers to the film Pretty Woman at one point, when she's asking Edward about what he does, and he tells her about buying companies and selling off the parts. She responds that it's like stealing a car and selling the parts. There was a book by Cameron Hawley that was made into a popular film with James Garner and Natalie Wood, in which he is basically into private equity before it had that name, and he comes out fairly heroically, as I recall. I haven't watched films like Wall Street to know if they cover the same material, but it certainly is something that could and should be addressed by popular culture productions.

Subject: RE: US TV, Books, & Films - what they say about us
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Nov 25 - 12:53 PM

The audience is the other half of art, movies, and literature.
For Hitler, American Westerns were his all time favorites.
He loved the holocaust of the Indians.

Insightful artistic visualzation is also a skill of excellent readers.
Authorship is the other half of the 'performance'.

The audience for conspiracy theories are low-information sponges anxious to soak up any available nonsense. They are seldom aware of the hidden agendas, as well as the obvious agendas, of the 'nonsense'.

The audience are also the preservers and care takers of art.
You don't have to be a museum curator to have beloved favorites be it music, art or literature.

Subject: RE: US TV, Books, & Films - what they say about us
From: Bill D
Date: 25 Nov 25 - 03:58 PM

Lighter..In the nineteenth century there was a lot of overlap between politics and literature, so many of the same points apply. Slavery was still an issue then, even as reconstruction proceeded and women's issues had barely a foothold until the early 20th century.

   I see very little difference between pop culture and its 'consumers' at that time. Victorian morals prevailed for the most part and although science was making big strides, electricity and indoor plumbing were almost unknown. My paternal grandmother, who I knew until my high school days, was born in 1879. Imagine the changes SHE saw from no electricity to television.
   Your questions, asking ME about days I never lived thru, require me to analyze them using only what I learned and read about. Do you have your own opinions? (I'm assuming you are not in the U.S., but I don't know you.)

I'll take even 200 words.