What Was It About The Bothy Band?

Subject: What Was It About The Bothy Band?
From: Mbo
Date: 06 Oct 99 - 10:09 AM

Not to spark any controversy, but...lately I've been hearing music critics compare every new Irish traditional group to the Bothy Band, and how they can't compare.) Being young (20) and only been immersed in Celtic music for a short while (3 years)I'm wondering what it was that people think made the Bothy Band so great. I understand that it included some great musicians (all of whom I love in their careers after the band broke up), but is their greatness based on the fact that they helped bring about the Celtic revival, or was their music special. Interestingly enough, for being so great, I have hardly ever heard their music, but when I have, it sounds no different to my ears like Altan or Dervish. Was music like this not that familiar in the 70's as it is in the 90's? I would like to hear your opinions.

--Mbo (hoo dusint wunt to b stond fer bean yung 'n unlirnd)

Subject: RE: What Was It About The Bothy Band?
From: Liam's Brother
Date: 06 Oct 99 - 11:04 AM

Music evolves. Prior to about 1970, give or take a few years, there were no bands as we think of them today.

There were the so-called "ballad groups" such as the Dubliners who had one of 2 members who would play a few tune sets for variety within programs which were mainly composed of songs. The classical musician and composer, Sean O'Riada, formed a group which played traditional instrumental music with a decidedly classical bias. He had a trained tenor, Sean O'Se sing the odd folk song.

What was missing was an integrated group most of the members of which both sang traditional songs in a traditional way and played traditional tunes in a traditional manner... together with a strong ryhthm section.

There were forerunners in The Johnstons and Sweeney's Men but the first group that really put all of it together was Planxty.

When Planxty broke up, Donal Lunny and other musicians founded The Bothy Band.

What was it about them? First of all, there were a lot of them - with 3 lead melody instruments... unheard of in such a group. Second of all, there were all brilliant individually and the whole was greater than the sum of the parts. Third of all, they played very fast with heavy rhythm while still being acoustic. It was revolutionary and many who would only listen to rock music beforehand found this music very exciting and different.

I was in another "neo-traditional" group at the same time. We were on the same program as The Bothy Band at what was our first folk festival. They were on their first USA tour. It was a tough gig.

All the best,
Dan Milner

Subject: RE: What Was It About The Bothy Band?
From: Alice
Date: 06 Oct 99 - 11:06 AM

Mbo, I don't know if others my age (almost 48) experienced this, but I grew up listening to the Clancy Brothers and Tommy Makem records, then the Chieftains appeared on the American scene with the soundtrack to Barry Lindon, then I found the Mary O'Hara recording released in the US... and until the explosion of popularity of Enya, Altan, Clannad, I had not even heard of the Bothy band. I find that people at our session who are in their late twenties and early thirties discovered the Bothy band and Silly Wizard while I was out of the 'music loop' for awhile, being a mom and working to exhaustion. I listened to the Thistle and Shamrock on National Public Radio, but only once in awhile during that time. If I had had more free time, there would have been an entire span of contemporary Irish music that I would not have missed the first time around. (sorry that didn't answer your question, but I am sure someone here will)

Subject: RE: What Was It About The Bothy Band?
From: Lady McMoo
Date: 06 Oct 99 - 11:31 AM

I would echo everything that Liam's Brother said. I think it was freshness of the Bothy Band's sound, their selection of material and style of playing that made them special and so much revered amongst those of us who were around at the time. They, Planxty and, I would say also, Boys of the Lough have had a tremendous influence on many of the more recent bands. That is not to take anything away from marvellous bands like Altan and Dervish who have done much to repopularise the Donegal and Sligo styles of playing respectively.

mcmoo

Subject: RE: What Was It About The Bothy Band?
From: lamarca
Date: 06 Oct 99 - 11:52 AM

I "discovered" Irish music in the late 70's-early 80's when I took up ceili dancing as a social activity. Being of Sicilian-Polish descent (a wopolack), I came to the music without any traditional background with which to compare it. As a dancer and rock&roll afficianado, it always seemed to me that The Chieftains (Sean O'Riada's group) were too "polite" - they played at the Kennedy Center for the 3-piece suit crowd. Our dance crowd would go to the clubs and bars to hear De Danaan, Touchstone (Triona and Michael O'Dhomnaill's post-Bothy Band creation) and the by then venerable Boys of the Lough. These bands all combined musical virtuosity in the traditional tunes with a rhythmic drive and spark that The Chieftains seemed to lack.

Nowadays, that fast-paced drive and shift to heavy rhythm and rock influences have been stretched even further by Eileen Ivers, Wolfstone, Mary Jane Lamond and others, so that the (mostly) still acoustic bands like Altan, Solas, Dervish and Beginnish get compared to the Bothy Band, one of the pioneers of that acoustic but rhythmic style of ensemble playing.

Subject: RE: What Was It About The Bothy Band?
From: Alice
Date: 06 Oct 99 - 12:03 PM

Liam and I were writing at the same time, so I didn't see his post at first. I forgot to mention Boys of the Lough. My older brother told me about their recordings, and looking back, I see a large gap in what I could listen to because of my poverty at the time - no stereo, no money for records or tapes, and it was not something one would hear on the radio in this little town. Thanks for these perspectives. I'd like to see this thread continue with more.

Subject: RE: What Was It About The Bothy Band?
From: Alice
Date: 06 Oct 99 - 12:07 PM

Dan, what was the year of that folk festival when your band and Bothy band were on the same program?

Subject: RE: What Was It About The Bothy Band?
From: Martin _Ryan
Date: 06 Oct 99 - 03:04 PM

Liam's brother gets to the point alright! "very fast with heavy rhythm". Now for the hard part - is that good, bad or indifferent in its impact on Irish music?

Regards

Or, putting it another way, why is Martin Hayes one-of-a-kind?

Subject: RE: What Was It About The Bothy Band?
From: Lady McMoo
Date: 06 Oct 99 - 03:31 PM

I don't think that the question good or bad is relevant. It is as it is and if people like it that's fine. Personally I love the music of both Dervish and Martin Hayes, to quote two very different examples above...for very different reasons and am long past the idea that there's a right or wrong in Irish music. I think the point with the Bothy Band is that they were very fresh-sounding in their time while being true to the tradition.

mcmoo

Subject: RE: What Was It About The Bothy Band?
From: Den
Date: 06 Oct 99 - 03:41 PM

Throw a spanner into the works or what Martin. Yeah I'd agree with what Liam's brother said completely. But Driving rythmn verses melodic style or transgression from the roots or local styles is a whole other issue. I have an old friend and we discuss these very points quite often. He is of the old school and believes the music has been lost since the sixties. I must say he has some very valid points to make. I believe that the Bothy Band made the biggest impact on the music at the time and because each individual member was a virtuoso on his or her particular instrument they had a amjor influence on other players. It seems now like every young flute player wants to sound like Matt Molloy. I think the big difference between the Bothys and Planxty is that Planxty had a lot of connections to the old school and tended to be faithful to the older players. Liam Og O Flynn for example was very influenced by Seamus Ennis, Willie Clancy and Leo Rowsome, I think he was taught by Leo Rowsome if I'm not mistaken. So are we getting away from localized styles and is the music becoming homogonized with young players trying to sound like instead of drawing from players and local styles. For what its worth Den.

Subject: RE: What Was It About The Bothy Band?
From: Liam's Brother
Date: 06 Oct 99 - 03:42 PM

Hi Martin!

As we know, there are good and bad aspects to many things. The Bothy Band played very fast but, clearly, they were virtuosic to the point that there was never a question of their losing control. We've all suffered through less adept players who play fast and poorly. I would not say that that was The Bothy Band's fault. I think that the Bothies' heavily rhythmic acoustic sound probably saved us from electro-Celtoid rock with full drum sets and bass guitars. The Bothies combined great speed, fluidity and weight; they were a hard act to follow even for rockers.

I lead a session with Brian Conway 2 or 3 times a month. Brian is not a fast player but I do notice that he picks up his tempo quite easily when musicians of his caliber who play faster drop by our session.

All the best,
Dan Milner

Subject: RE: What Was It About The Bothy Band?
From: Liam's Brother
Date: 06 Oct 99 - 03:52 PM

Hi Alice!

That was 1975 or '76; I don't recall which. In 1977, we did The Philadelphia Folk Festival with De Dannan; who said life would be easy! We often talked about adding 1 or 2 musicians (we were a quartet) but it was, of course, more than a matter of numbers.

All the best,
Dan

Subject: RE: What Was It About The Bothy Band?
From: Mbo
Date: 07 Oct 99 - 03:38 PM

Thanks for all the info, guys! It has made everything so much clearer and I can at last see their true importance in the world of Celtic music. But please don't put down the "electro-Celtoid rock." I know it sometimes loosely based on the elements of Celtic music, but I can respect such groups as Wolfstone, Runrig, and AfroCelt Sound System as much as the traditional performers. In fact, when I ever find a group of musicians to play music with me, I'll find that most of the music I compose is traditional sounding, but with a decidedly rock influence. In my opinion, the bass guitars and drumsets can enhance traditional music, but they don't always neccesarily destroy the traditional music by including such instruments. For example, Noirin Ni Rian's rather funky version of "Song of the Pooka" and the Chieftains traditional version (called "Tin Whistles") are both good --the more modern version is not an insult to the traditional, and the traditional is not so stuffy and "old-fashioned" that it needs modernizing; the same goes for such selections as Paul Mounsey's hip-hop-esque "Journeyman" and the Clancy Brothers traditional version "The Little Beggarman." I think both deserve credit where credit is due. Also, I think that in some strait rock and roll numbers, the guitar solos and riffs are perfect little quasi-fiddle tunes and can work well in the Celtic medium; e.g. did anyone ever notice "Karla With a K" by The Hooters, "The Boys Are Back In Town" by Thin Lizzy, "Fields of Fire" by Big Country, or "Down Home Town" by The Electric Light Orchestra all contain riffs that could easily be played by traditional Celtic musicians and sound like traditional music? Maybe I'm rambling, or maybe I need to start a new thread for a further discussion of this. Oh well. Thanks again for all the info!

--Mbo (who likes Celtic Rock)

Subject: RE: What Was It About The Bothy Band?
From: Lady McMoo
Date: 07 Oct 99 - 03:47 PM

Quite agree Mbo. I've been playing Irish music acoustically for about 35 years but am a big fan of the Afro-Celts, Paul Mounsey, Shooglenifty and others who have brought completely new influences or fusions into the music.

Power to your elbow!

mcmoo

Subject: RE: What Was It About The Bothy Band?
From: paddymac
Date: 07 Oct 99 - 11:10 PM

Mbo - thanks for starting a great thread for learning. I continue to be amazed at the depth of knowledge available to and from the Mudcat community.

I started to grab my gaelic dictionary when I saw the tag line on your initial post, thinking from the "look" of the line that it must surely be in gaelic. Then read it again and roared with laughter.

Subject: RE: What Was It About The Bothy Band?
From: SeanM
Date: 07 Oct 99 - 11:16 PM

Speaking of the "influenced"... One of my occasional faves is Ashley MacIssaac... hell of a fiddle player, and takes traditional tunes and rearranges them, keeping quite a bit of the original flavor.

Loads of fun

M

Subject: RE: What Was It About The Bothy Band?
From: PJ Curtis
Date: 08 Oct 99 - 05:46 AM

What made the Bothy Band Special? Killer players, killer arrangements, well-chosen sets of tunes, awesome live appearences(nobody could follow the Bothies on stage...not even electric bands). Most irish bands will say the say thing...there will never be anything like them again!!! If proof be needed, listen to the 'Rip The Callico' set or the first album...and marvel. pjc ps I witnessed over 300 live Bothy live gigs as I was on the road with them for three years of their all too brief professional life.

Subject: RE: What Was It About The Bothy Band?
From: GeorgeH
Date: 08 Oct 99 - 07:43 AM

At the risk of upsetting folks . . .

A possible problem with too many "young" high-enery bands is that they start a set flat-out, and leave themselves no-where to go. Possibly trying (and failing) to out-Bothy Band the Bothy Band. And after 45mins of them they leave you feeling you've heard it all befor (unless you're sufficiently "tanked up" first!!) From memory, there was more variety and contrast within a Bothy set or recording than those "new" bands can manage. And that doesn't seem reflected in what's been said so far.

On the other hand amongst the "new" bands there's those with the new-age whispyness of Clannad (a find band up to and just about including "Harry's Game")/Enya. I don't know how I'd feel after 45mins of one of those - there's no way I'd have lasted that long . .

G.

Subject: RE: What Was It About The Bothy Band?
From: Ralf Weihrauch
Date: 08 Oct 99 - 02:08 PM

The Star of the Bothy Band was Donal Lunny. It was not only his playing, but his prduction and arrangements, which make the Bothy Band uncomparable to anyother. He knw exactly how to put in every frequency into every production. Just listen to the use of the Bodhran. It was always tuned so low, that it sounded like a Bass Drum of a Rock Drum Kit. Whithout Donal Lunny, the Bothy Band would have been only half so good.

Subject: RE: What Was It About The Bothy Band?
From: j0_77
Date: 08 Oct 99 - 02:48 PM

IMHO Rock is old and no longer relevant. Rap is todays underground music! It is creative critical and rhythmic just like Jazz and Rock were.

Boothy was a great band in those times but the newer bands play faster and better and ... everything.

I still love to hear a carefull slower playing of some of the old standard Irish Trad tunes.

One of my favorite trad players has no connection with Ireland and even goes over to the Summer schools ( I often wondered why ) yet can play those beautifull old tunes in a simple way and leave something for the listener to take away. A tune!!

Perhaps too much haste and no time - :)Impatient?, can't wait? Nothing is that easy especially good music.