BS: Freedom vs. Security

Subject: BS: Freedom vs. Security
From: walkinman
Date: 21 Jan 01 - 10:59 PM

I am thankful that I was raised in a time when freedom was cherished and security was loathed.... I guess we're not alone in this...

"An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last" -Winston Churchill

"I would rather sit on a pumpkin, and have it all to myself, than to be crowded on a velvet cushion" -Henry David Thoreau

wm

Subject: RE: BS: Freedom vs. Security
From: wysiwyg
Date: 21 Jan 01 - 11:08 PM

It is logically possible and certainly desirable to have both, with a little creativity. OK, with a lot of creativity. Don't settle for what seems possible. Persist against discouragment. Things only SEEM mutually exclusive. They aren't.

And-and, not either-or.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Freedom vs. Security
From: catspaw49
Date: 21 Jan 01 - 11:24 PM

Every piece of security is a trade-off for a piece of freedom.

The people will fancy an appearance of freedom; illusion will be their native land."......Jacques Ellul

Also check out a copy of "From Freedom to Slavery" by Gerry Spence.............

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Freedom vs. Security
From: Skeptic
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 07:35 AM

Churchill nailed it. Seems we have allowed the appeasers to co-opt the decision process. Thus we have the laws to legislate morality, and all to often, thought. Freedom retreats a little every day, all to keep the evil crocodile at bay. That and security seems so much easier than freedom. For individuals and the society.

The satisfaction of physical needs is indeed the indispensable precondition of a satisfactory existence, but in itself is not enough. In order to be content men must also have the possibility of developing their intellectual and artistic powers to whatever extent accord with their personal characteristics and abilities." - Albert Einstein

Regards John

Subject: RE: BS: Freedom vs. Security
From: walkinman
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 07:37 AM

Here is what H.G. Wells had to say on the subject:

"But in these plethoric times when there is too much coarse stuff for everybody and the srtuggle for life takes the form of competitive advertisement and the effort to fill your neighbor's eye, there is no urgent demand either for personal courage, sound nerves or stark beauty, we find ourselves by accisent. Always before these times the bulk of the people did not overeat themselves, because the couldsn't, whether they wanted to or not, and all but a very few were kept "fit" by unavoidable exercise and personal danger. Now if we only pitch his standard low enough and keep free from pride, almost anyone can achieve a sort of excess. You can go through contemporary life fudging and evading, indulging and slacking, never really hungry nor frightened nor passionately stirred, your highest moment a mere sentimental orgasm, and your first real contact with primary and elemental necessities the sweat of your deathbed."

Think of that quote the next time your boss gives you any shit..

wm

Subject: RE: BS: Freedom vs. Security
From: kendall
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 07:47 AM

A soldiers pack is not as heavy as a slave's chains..D.D. Eisenhower

Subject: RE: BS: Freedom vs. Security
From: GUEST,guestguestguest(intruder)guest
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 09:25 AM

"You cannot conquer a free man, the most you can do is kill him"

Robert Anson Heinlein

"While it is better to be a dead lion than a live jackel, it is best to be a live lion."

op cit

Subject: RE: BS: Freedom vs. Security
From: Troll
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 10:25 AM

Actually GUEST, it's " It's better to be a live Jackel than a dead Lion. But it's even better to be a live Lion. And usually easier."
Too many people confuse peace with freedom. You can have peace under the most brutal of dictatorships. Freedom must be constantly fought for and defended.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Freedom vs. Security
From: GUEST,walkin'man
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 11:19 AM

One of the best books regarding the topic, "Freedom vs. Security is "One Flew Over The Cukoos' Nest" by Ken Kesey, (the movie wasn't too shabby either).

I would suggest that we rent(or buy) this classic and watch it again with a few friends. When the movie is over, ask each other which character(patient)in the movie we relate to the most....

Flyin' west,

wm

Subject: RE: BS: Freedom vs. Security
From: GUEST,guestguestguest(intruder)geez
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 01:31 PM

:::refrains from repeating hisself:::

i've always been mr mcmurphy, and it's gotten me kilt more'n once.

and how about that W bush fella, killing that there fed'l funding for pro-choice stuff and nonsuch

:::moves into the DEEP woods:::

scares the puke outta me, only took two days, too

Subject: RE: BS: Freedom vs. Security
From: nutty
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 01:39 PM

My first philosophy essay at college was entitled - 'Discuss the Paradox of Freedom' It made me realise that there is no such thing as 'freedom'likewise there is no such thing as 'security' there are only degrees of such concepts.

Subject: RE: BS: Freedom vs. Security
From: bflat
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 01:45 PM

Well said, nutty. I completely agree with the variable of the concept.

Ellen

Subject: RE: BS: Freedom vs. Security
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 23 Jan 01 - 10:42 AM

I believe it was Ben Franklin who said:

"Those who would sacrifice essential liberties for temporary security deserve neither."

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Freedom vs. Security
From: Lox
Date: 23 Jan 01 - 10:55 AM

My freedom ends where yours begins.

If you impinge upon my freedom, I will threaten your security, as I will perceive that you are threatening my security too.

Freedom and security aren't opposites. They are just different concepts.

Freedom to ensure your own security and being secure enough to protect your freedom go very comfortably together.

I'm sorry, but I the question is obsolete and irrelevant.

lox

Subject: RE: BS: Freedom vs. Security
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jan 01 - 02:27 AM

I've always thought of it as one hell of a challenge to chisel out a decent existence (by my standards--admittedly lower than some) while reserving ALL of my time to those things I deemed valuable----i.e. work only at what I enjoy (folksinging) and leave time for reading and getting my e-mail and and doing what I could do until I couldn't do it any more. Yes, the older I get, the better I was ! **big grin**

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Subject: RE: BS: Freedom vs. Security
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jan 01 - 02:34 AM

All of the above post came after the family---and on a few occasions, alongside the family.

--- ------

Subject: RE: BS: Freedom vs. Security
From: mousethief
Date: 24 Jan 01 - 03:27 PM

Lox, you must be outside the USA. Here in the USA, we definitely find that the populace is gaining security (usually false security) by trading away freedom. For instance, it is now possible for the government to take your property without due process, if illegal drugs are (said to be) found therein/thereupon. Thus a freedom (private property ownership) is sacrificed in order to gain "security" (freedom from having others take illegal drugs). This case is a horrid tradeoff by my way of thinking. But this sort of thing is happening with greater frequency these days, it would appear.

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: Freedom vs. Security
From: Amergin
Date: 24 Jan 01 - 03:54 PM

Alex, I know some one who this happened to....they didn't find anything, and this after they took his expensive gun collection and smashed to pieces several family heirlooms...it turns out they went to the wrong house....and the bastards didn't even apologise...he'll be lucky if he sees any reimbursement at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Freedom vs. Security
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Jan 01 - 04:39 PM

I am thankful that I was raised in a time when freedom was cherished and security was loathed.... I guess we're not alone in this...

When was that?

Generally speaking, wherever and wherever you are, some freedom is traded for some security, anmd some security is traded for some fredom.

"Workers of the world unite, you have nothing to lose but your chains"

Subject: RE: BS: Freedom vs. Security
From: Jim the Bart
Date: 24 Jan 01 - 06:40 PM

Freedom and Security are not goals. They aren't even states. They are conditions under which we proceed during this process called life. You cannot be truly free to act unless you are secure in the knowledge that your actions will not somehow redound against you. And security in a world that is constantly changing is nothing but an illusion.

Subject: RE: BS: Freedom vs. Security
From: walkinman
Date: 25 Jan 01 - 07:19 AM

"....and most often, we construct our own bircage, a curious occupation, both architect and inmate, we flitter about in search of some elusive key. We must appear foolhardy, crashing about in our self-prescribed hoosegow ...simultaneousley craving for the certainty of the IN ans the deliverance of the OUT...neither sufficiently frightened or remotely at ease".

-Walker Feldman, Pomona, Ca. 1968