Songlines:World Music vs British music

Subject: Songlines:World Music vs British music
From: GUEST,eliza c
Date: 30 Jan 04 - 03:27 PM

Anyone seen this magazine article yet? It does mention me, but trying to be objective (almost impossible when you read it), what do you fellers (and lasses) think?
There isn't an online version, but here are a few quotes:

"Why, with all the scintillating sounds emanating from (other places), do we choose the turgid and anachronistic sounds of traditional folk to represent us on the world stage?"

"This is the 21st Century, where the whole pleasure of World Music is the cultural garam masala that has produced exciting new sounds, albeit with reference to the past. The hard truth, and one that it is about time we owned up to, is that when we talk about "World Music" we mean "rest of the world music". Music performed by foreigners in strange tongues and creating stranger sounds."

"(British folk is) simply not relevant, and not good enough, and diverting attention from far more interesting artists"

Presumably he feels this way about American traditional music too, although he doesn't mention it. Wonder if he knows that it exists?
His name is Paul Morrison. I can feel myself sharpening my knives for this man, but fancied a few other opinions first.
It's a shame, I've always been a fan of Songlines and the way it does seem to incude everyone in its vision. Only one man's opinion, I know, but it seems to me that this kind of thing plays upon our national flaw: the refusal to respect anything home-grown in favour of the exotic. Your clarifying views would be greatly appreciated!
cheers,
ec

Subject: RE: Songlines:World Music vs British music
From: Les from Hull
Date: 30 Jan 04 - 04:17 PM

'Lanky-haired women and hairy-chinned blokes with fingers in ears singing about 19th century shipwrecks' is apparently what we do. So that's telling us!

Perhaps Paul Morrison hasn't heard as much 'British Folk' as he should. Or perhaps he has heard too much. I'd like to hear some of his music to see if I like it as much as I like yours (or mine for that matter). And it was nice of him to include your picture so everyone would know who he was slagging off.

The guy's an idiot. Doesn't he know that 'World Music' is a name made up by the record industry so that they can put all sorts of odd sounds conveniently together in the record shops? It's as meaningful as 'Celtic Music'. The fact that Songlines includes 'British Folk' in its coverage is an editoral decision of that magazine.

Now I like much of the music that Songlines features, and I'm grateful for the introduction I've had to lots of interesting sounds. But why they have to have this 'bete noire' feature where somebody tells us something they don't like beats me.

Les (hairy-chinned bloke goes off singing about 19th century shipwrecks)

Subject: RE: Songlines:World Music vs British music
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 30 Jan 04 - 04:30 PM

Not much clarification to be had from me, I fear. I've just about reached the age now where I no longer see why I should be patient and reasonable with the kind of fools who write this sort of thing. Does he really go on to snigger about arran sweaters, beards and fingers? It's hard to tell from the extract what he thinks of as being "traditional folk", though I doubt if it's what most of us would understand by the term. Perhaps he was frightened by the Wurzels while in his cradle.

He seems to be taking the narrow-minded and subjective (and terribly old-fashioned) "nothing produced at home is worthwhile; everybody else's music is cool, though" line that the lazier music pundits have been happily trotting out for -literally- several hundred years. His remarks are indeed rather racist, and would rightly be seen as such if he were to use those same words of traditional Punjabi folk music, for example. Anyone who talks about "relevance" where music is concerned begs the question, relevant in what sense? and to whom? I don't see him addressing that, though perhaps the rest of his piece is full of intelligent and considered analysis. I expect you'd have mentioned that, though.

Unfortunately, the continual, dreary, repetitive sniping of pompous little fashion-victims in the media is a cross we have to bear these days. I daresay a little contrived controversy keeps the money coming in, but you'd think that, if they had any imagination worth speaking of, they wouldn't have to resort to knocking over the same old straw man every time.

Subject: RE: Songlines:World Music vs British music
From: Les from Hull
Date: 30 Jan 04 - 05:13 PM

I stuck the article in the scanner so it could get a wider read. This article is, of course, copyright Songlines and Paul Morrison. I'm only putting it here in the interests of fairness. I would encourage people to go out and buy their own copy (Issue 22 Jan/Feb 2004). There's a nice review of Dr Faustus' debut CD!

Bete Noire

Folk music as 'world music'

Cuba's got son, Spain flamenco, Pakistan qawwali and Senegal mbalax. South Africa's townships bring the world the beautiful a capella voices, India the hypnotic strains of the sitar, and Argentina the thrill of tango. And what do we contribute to the genre known - controversially - as world music? Lanky-haired women and hairy-chinned blokes with fingers in their ears singing about 19th century shipwrecks. Why, with all the scintillating sounds emanating from these isles, do we choose the turgid and anachronistic sounds of traditional folk to represent us on the global stage?

"But folk is our roots music!" come the protests. "Rubbish," comes my response. The pages of Songlines, the airwaves of Radio 3 and the stages of WOMAD present us with hip-hop from Cuba, ska-punk from Venezuela and R&B from Uzbekistan. If we were to be really purist about this, and allow only unadulterated music from each nation to be classed as world music, we'd be left with the Library of Congress recordings and ban all electrical instruments. No more Manu Chao. No more Khaled. No more Sting (whoops, shot myself in the foot with that one).

This is the 21st century, where the whole pleasure of world music is the cultural garam masala that has produced exciting new sounds, albeit with reference to the past. With the wealth of new music flooding over our borders, there's simply no need to include our home-grown folkies who for some reason have been elevated to a status in world music scenes that bears no logic - Eliza Carthy (pictured) has no more justification for inclusion than Ms Dynamite. The hard truth, and one that it's about time we owned up to, is that when we talk about 'world music', what we really mean is 'rest of the world music'. Music performed by foreigners in strange tongues and creating stranger sounds. It's the opposite of popular music, as we know it.

It's a peculiarly Western perspective, but that's the whole point. In Mali and Mumbai they may consider Radiohead and Eminem as world musicians - in fact, Rokia Traore chose to play tracks by the Rolling Stones and Stevie Wonder in her recent guest slot on Charlie Gillett's radio show, rather than the likes of Kate Rusby. So let's be honest about our parochial viewpoint, and please, please let's stop pushing British folk into spotlight - it's simply not relevant, and not good enough, and diverting attention from far more interesting artists. Paul Morrison

Subject: RE: Songlines:World Music vs British music
From: greg stephens
Date: 30 Jan 04 - 06:03 PM

It's a viewpoint, and there's a big chunk of truth in it, which is why it annoys people(us) a lot. I work with "world" (in the sense of non-white) musicians a lot, and am also a fanatic about the joys of English traditional music. if I am a organisng multi-cu;tural events I make sure we get the Kurdish fiddlers, the ican singers, and jigs and hornpipes as well.
    But let's be fair and listen to what the guy says. If you were organising the Fantasy World Concert featuring musicians of the last 50 years, who would you put up for the English slot? (The word "folk" is not being used, by the way, just "world"). Would it be the Stones perhaps? The Beatles? The Kinks? The Sex Pistols? Or would it be Louis Killen, the Spinners, Martin or Eliza Carthy? Now, if we are talking folk, the latter lot would be considered. But if it was just "music"., might we not take very seriously the contributions of the first four groups I mentioned?
   I can pick holes in that article, as we all can. But there's no harm in reflecting on what might just be right about it, as well.

Subject: RE: Songlines:World Music vs British music
From: harvey andrews
Date: 30 Jan 04 - 06:16 PM

Eliza, this is a personal response on a public forum, but why not?
The man is an arse.
People who write articles and run magazines do so because they can't hold the stage as you can. He's a shadow chaser, a fad fancier, a figment of his own pomposity and narrow mindedness.
In my 40 years of being a singer and songwriter I've been buried, along with the music I love, in many an article or review, only to be raised from the dead and lauded by others.All of us have.
But I've ploughed my furrow. And your mother and father have ploughed theirs with distinction. If they have scrapbooks I'm sure they can show you similar articles. We've all suffered them.
His opinion has as much weight as a bag of wind.
We make the music we make because we love it. We find an audience that loves it too and together we row off into the sunset.
Those that can't find the audience for their music start magazines and write for them. It's amazing what insulting bollocks a desperate writer can find to say when he's faced with the blank page.
I've seen the music I love buried, booed and battered,as well as lauded,loved,and praised, but its practitioners are still working, making cd's and putting bums on seats. They are still being true to their "roots", to what made them start to make music in the first place.
I've seen it all come, go, and come back again. So will you.
Tomorrow I do a 40th year concert which is a theatre sell-out.
You will too.
And the name Morrison will have been completely forgotten.
Don't let the bastards grind you down!

Subject: RE: Songlines:World Music vs British music
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Jan 04 - 06:55 PM

"World music" is indeed a pretty synthetic category. Basicaly it's "lets have some funny foreign stuff for a change and sell a few more records and get bums on seats" - and I suspect that more often than not, what we end up with hearing about isn't in fact the best music from the cultures, it's the stuff that has the right combination of familiarity and novelty.

Clearly the man hasn't any understanding whatsoever of the folk music of the country he lives in. However I think it is highly unlikely he knows anything more about the music of the countries whose names he drops into his intro, so knowingly casually.

That isn't any kind of an explorer writing. He's just a tourist.

Subject: RE: Songlines:World Music vs British music
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 30 Jan 04 - 07:39 PM

Music reviews always tell the reader much more about the reviewer than the music. That's always been true, but it seems to be getting truer. Reviews these days are almost devoid of content about the music itself.

If a reviewer says "I like this" and "I don't like that" all I really care about is how close his/her musical tastes are to mine. If I think we're on the same wavelength I probably won't take the evaluations seriously but I might let him/her point me towards some music I should be exploring.

Paul Morrison doesn't like your music. I do. I trust my own judgement. I can now safely ignore Paul Morrison.

I've heard you live. I've heard your recordings. You get it right. What else do I need to know?

If your music doesn't please you, why bother? If it does, why listen to the Paul Morrisons of the world?

Subject: RE: Songlines:World Music vs British music
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 30 Jan 04 - 07:42 PM

It depends what we mean by "world music", I suppose. It appears that Paul Morrison means, essentially, rock music incorporating "ethnic flavours", so his use of the term "folk music" only serves to confuse the issue. Perhaps he supposes his readers cannot tell the difference, or was deliberately not comparing like with like (the old straw man syndrome I mentioned).

Of course you wouldn't put up, let's say, Boden and Speirs against the Beatles or the Kinks (I'd say that the Stones were less typically British), any more than you'd realistically compare Phil Tanner with Kathleen Ferrier. Not a question of quality, authenticity or anything like that, but of the essential fatuity of trying to decide, for example, whether oxygen is "better" than nitrogen.

I'd expected a longer piece. Turns out it's just one of those wee "opinion" columns that magazines drop in to stir things up a bit. I don't expect the boy means any harm, but he needs to clarify his thinking if he wants to do serious work in the future; assuming he actually meant what he said and wasn't just dropping stones into the pool. A pity, though, that such people so often lack the imagination or the pride in their craft to do anything other than pick on what they see as the soft target every time. In that, he is following a very old and rather sad tradition.

Still and all, it's only pop journalism: cheap and ephemeral, produced off the top of the head to demand. You can't expect serious analysis from hacks who can't or won't take the time to do the research; trouble is, the unwary may believe that they reading something written by some kind of expert.

Subject: RE: Songlines:World Music vs British music
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 30 Jan 04 - 08:06 PM

Somebody listens to the Nigerian equivalent of a lesser local bar band and thinks its the greatest thing since [your favorite comparison here]. That person now considers himself an aficionado of "world" music.

It has been my experience that the degree of enthusiasm for music from a different cultural tradition is inversely proportional the enthusiastis knowledge of that tradition.

You've gotta listen to a lot of shlock before you can start to recognize it in other musical traditions.

If you're listening to music from a different musical tradition and you think "I like this. It's sort of what I am used to but a little different", why wouldn't that cause warning bells to go off?

Subject: RE: Songlines:World Music vs British music
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 30 Jan 04 - 08:47 PM

I like folk music because it talks to me. I like whatever music talks to me. Sadly, I don't understand everybody else's culture.

Subject: RE: Songlines:World Music vs British music
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 31 Jan 04 - 09:35 AM

It appears to me that Paul Morrison is one of a group of talentless people who seem to hate their own musical heritage and traditions and
put forward some other culture like the kings new clothes.[ Shades of Ian Anderson ]. Round where I live in West Yorkshire, you can go out any night of the week into a pub and listen to people singing and playing British and American folk music old and new and sometimes
music from other countries. They do this because they love the music.
Is Paul Morrison saying ther is something wrong with us all because we don't like what he likes? Unless he is deliberately being provocative, he really is talking out of his arse.
eric

Subject: RE: Songlines:World Music vs British music
From: GUEST,eliza c
Date: 31 Jan 04 - 03:55 PM

Thanks. I went ahead and emailed them something suitable. I hope! I do think the crux of the problem lies in the fact that he dislikes folk music in general, not just the British stuff. He does appear to class World Music as pop music in a different languages. I did wonder whether he has a general dislike for British music as a whole, but you're right McGrath, he's a tourist. And happy to perpetuate all the stereotypes, so probably not that committed or thoughtful to the subject. I think the point of the column is to allow people to get their "black beasts" out, so they'll always be negative. I wholly dislike that as a concept, in music and life.
To be fair to Ian Anderson (I assume you mean fRoots man eric, not the flute player), he was the one that emailed me the article in the first place, and has written a nicely damning edtorial for the next issue of his magazine. I've never found him to be against British traditions, just the opposite in fact. I think he does his best. Can't please everyone.
But thanks again for your thoughts, some of you are a great deal more measured than I was in my reply!!!
cheers,
x ec

Subject: RE: Songlines:World Music vs British music
From: Jeri
Date: 31 Jan 04 - 04:20 PM

Les from Hull, thanks for scanning the article in.

The article's either evidence of complete cluelessness or sarcasm so close to what some people really believe that no one will notice. He uses the phrase "turgid and anachronistic sounds of traditional folk" but uses Eliza as his 'poster child'. Excuse me? Is there something wrong with this picture?

Wasn't it Ian Anderson who described world (or was it 'roots'?) music as 'music from anywhere else but here'?   It sounds to me as if Morrison's talking more about the assumptions people make about traditional English music and their ignorance of innovative music based on it than actually slagging it. Of course, I want to believe that, because I can't fathom anyone being as dense as he'd have to be to mean it literally.

Subject: RE: Songlines:World Music vs British music
From: GUEST,Sam Pirt
Date: 31 Jan 04 - 05:13 PM

I read the article with great interest paticularly as I run Ethno England an International youth Folkmusic Camp in England. Ethno England is based upon the idea that the participants teach their own traditions and learn others. Every countrys music at the camp is relevant, even British Folk Music. I think this relevance also applies on the world stage.

Your ears may well be used to the music you have been hearing, they may even be tired of hearing it!! But does that make it past its sell by date?, I don't think so paticularly as Traditional music is built on the concept of music being passed on for generations.
At Ethno Camps you tend to see an appreciation for all aspects of the traditions right down to the basic things in the traditions, like timing and beat.

My point really is 'Don't dis your own tradition' It has Lots to offer to ears not tuned in to British Folk Music.
To say "let's stop pushing British folk into spotlight - it's simply not relevant, and not good enough" Is plain crazy you just can't ignore a WHOLE tradition just because it does not have funky 'world' beats.

I think the truth of the tail is that British Folk Music has managed to get on the 'world' stage in a much less diluted form than other traditions. This is far more positive for the tradition and obiouly as it is less diluted means that the British traditional music starting point becomes even more relevant to the music. Adding world music beats is not the be all and end of world music, maybe, just maybe, world music means DIFFERENT types of music from around the world. Now there must be some space for British Folkmusic somewhere out there, shouldn't there?

I have rambled but I hope it is of some use.

Cheers, Sam

Subject: RE: Songlines:World Music vs British music
From: Les from Hull
Date: 31 Jan 04 - 07:16 PM

Well said, Sam!

Subject: RE: Songlines:World Music vs British music
From: treewind
Date: 31 Jan 04 - 08:40 PM

From the article in question:
Rokia Traore chose to play tracks by the Rolling Stones and Stevie Wonder in her recent guest slot on Charlie Gillett's radio show, rather than the likes of Kate Rusby.

Rather confirms my suspicion that world music is just pop music in foreign languages.

Ian Anderson (fRoots editor) is always going on about "local music from out there" - what about "world music from right here"?

Eliza - get those knives out - you're closest to the target, in the sense that your opinions might get published, heard or seen!

Anahata

Subject: RE: Songlines:World Music vs British music
From: GUEST,Ooh-Aah
Date: 01 Feb 04 - 04:45 AM

I'm listening to the Watersons as I write this and I can tell you the man's a wanker - nothing more needs to be said.
Congratulations on your last album, Eliza - fantastic, and every song makes his every sentence laughable.

Subject: RE: Songlines:World Music vs British music
From: moocowpoo
Date: 01 Feb 04 - 09:21 PM

Each country should produce bands which play their own traditional music, backed by electronic beats. I think then, once there was less difference between traditions and everything is homogenised by being an ingredient in a big, tasteless world soup, then!, then I think Paul morrison will be truly happy! Really though, I love bands like Afro celt sound system, Shooglenifty, B.A.R.K, Varttina but these bands are all interpreting traditional music in some way, should we just have these popular 'world' bands and eliminate the trad stuff?
For a start, they wouldn't have anything to play if there was no trad. It's also anachronus to sing about last week and paul morrison can't even remember last year!, what a terrible curse to be stuck(only) in the present. moocowpoo.

Subject: RE: Songlines:World Music vs British music
From: Maryrrf
Date: 01 Feb 04 - 10:13 PM

What a load of crap! I suppose, then, it's of no relevance at all to study history, or to read authors such as Chaucer and Dickens. Of what possible relevance is a museum, for instance - just relics of the past on display. I never heard of this guy but he sounds incredibly shallow. And what's this about pushing British folk into the spotlight - isn't it in a very marginal place right now on the music scene? I guess he just wants to stamp it out altogether. I think his commentary is too stupid for words. Thank goodness there are people like Eliza who still carry on in spite of nonsense like this.

Subject: RE: Songlines:World Music vs British music
From: rich-joy
Date: 02 Feb 04 - 04:13 AM

perhaps Mr Morrison could consider the following translation of a Tamil song :


"To each his own will be important,"
The great Poet said in his time,
"But if each of us were to worship only our own towns,
Then the loss is for the entire earth,"

CHORUS 1:
My music must be given two names,
The names of both the East and West,
All music -- the music of different cities,
Of different countries -- must be looked at as one,

Some music is referred to as "pop,"
Some music is referred to as "rock,"
Some music is referred to as "kaameeyam,"
Some music is referred to as "swaastheegam,"
Even though languages are different,
The songs remain the same,
Even when countries are different,
The sky remains the same,
Because of that, my friend, do not see our differences,
Let the creed of all mankind rule this earth,

CHORUS 1

What was composed by Beethoven is music,
What flowed from Munmurthy is music,
What is sung in the fields is music,
What is beat in the festivals is music,
The music that we sing,
Is the audible form our feelings take,
In the end, all rivers,
Meet with the same ocean,
Is not the song sung by laborers in the field,
A beautiful rain of song?
Is not the moment when a flower blossoms on a rock,
A beautiful rain of song?

found at www.geocities.com/subashlyrics/archives/p/popcarn02.htm

Cheers!
R-J
(who loves it all)

Subject: RE: Songlines:World Music vs British music
From: mooman
Date: 02 Feb 04 - 04:37 AM

I agree with the general consensus that the man is a fool to be dissing British folk music in the way that he has. It suggests a general lack of any kind of knowledge of the subject.

Some of the comments here do bother me though, e.g.

Rather confirms my suspicion that world music is just pop music in foreign languages.

I have, over the years, have a great opportunity to see, on a more or less weekly basis, some great music from all around the world, from Central and South Americia, to various African countries, to many European countries, to the Middle East, to former USSR republics, to the Far East. I cannot support Anahata's view above, the majority of this has been superb traditional music of those areas rather than "pop music in a foreign language". Unfortunately, the "world music" label does suffer a bit from the problem McGrath describes thanks to its use by record company marketing execs but "folk music of the world" does contain some pretty amazing stuff in my personal experience.

Keep up the great work Eliza and Co!

Peace

moo