Stealing gigs from the pro's

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 07:23 AM

As a promoter, I would recommend treating putting on gigs as taxable income. Even if it's not your main source of income (even if it's not a source of income at all – perhaps even especially so). Room hire charges and performer's fees are claimable expenses. Do it properly, and fill out a tax return every year. If you have to fill out a tax return already (eg for any kind of freelance work) and you promote gigs, then doubly so. And if you are a musician as well as a promoter, then even more so.

I often think it's a shame that private companies/investors don't put on free concerts as a tax loss. It'd be brilliant for the live music scene.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 07:27 AM

Guest, quick, type in some sort of name for yourself and repost! Totally anonymous messages have been getting zapped lately - I was sorry to see a lot of them go - and yours is too good to lose.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: GUEST,matt m
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 07:41 AM

OK then, with a few additions too:

As a promoter, I would recommend other promoters treat putting on gigs as taxable income. Even if it's not your main source of income (even if it's not a source of income at all – perhaps even especially so in this instance). Room hire charges and performer's fees are claimable expenses. Do it properly, and fill out a tax return every year. If you have to fill out a tax return already (eg for any kind of freelance work) and you promote gigs, then doubly so. And if you are a musician as well as a promoter, then even more so (as the amount of claimable expenses can include musical instruments, travel etc).

I often think it's a shame that private companies/investors don't put on concerts as a tax loss. It'd be brilliant for the live music scene.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Brendy
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 07:47 AM

Carlsberg and Tuborg fund quite a lot of free, live music in Denmark, especially during the summer.

We have a fairly good relationship with themselves, and Guinness, whose Head Office for the Nordics is based in Stockholm.
The Drinks companies set up these concerts each weekend in one of the major towns in Denmark, and the line-up consists of 4 or 5 up and coming Danish bands, and one headliner.
These are free concerts.

When we put on the Festival in Marstal every year (next year's will be our 6th), Carlsberg & Guinness are normally fairly generous.
Money is one thing, but product is quite another. We have a few outside bars scattered around the main venue.

Cultural activities in Scandinavia are Tax-Free, and every year Bórd Fáilte (Tourism Ireland), and The Embassy of Ireland in København give us their full support.
Certainly parts of the festival are liable to tax (alcohol sales, etc), but the main income isn't, and this means we have a small amount to put into the following year.

So far the festival has paid for itself, with a little spare every year for the budget for the next. None of us, however are 'taking a wage' or anything like that.

I have noticed over the years Festivals and venues falling on their arses purely due to the greed of people who want to take every spare penny (and the rest) out of the kitty.

B.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 08:02 AM

I don't see why we should guarantee an artist against their failure to bring in an audience

If sufficient people don't turn up, that's not the failure of the performer, but rather of the club organiser who made the booking in the first place, and who was in a better position to know who might draw in people, and to do the things that might help in ensuring that.

Personally I'd hate to run a club, especially these days.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: GUEST,matt m
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 08:08 AM

Corporate sponsorship is all well and good, and certainly merits discussion. I almost regret referring to it though because I want to make sure my main point doesn't get lost here: that on the cottage-industry level, the self-assessment income tax form can actually be unexpectedly useful.

I have to fill one out once a year anyway because of earnings for freelance writing and (music) journalism. But I play gigs as a musician. I also put on gigs for myself and others. So I gave myself a company name and description that covered all these interests. Any losses in one activity are expenses absorbed by the tax I pay on profits from a different one. I would recommend any other 'multi-taskers' do the same.

Maybe if you just put on gigs as a 'serious hobby' one evening a month alongside your PAYE day job you might not think it worth the hassle of getting on the self-assessment form treadmill – but if you were serious enough to be planning on doing so for longer than a year I'd still recommend it.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Brendy
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 08:11 AM

I'm self-employed over here, matt m.
I have have my own company, and the tax (although a higher %) is worked out in much the same way.

B.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: GUEST, Anon
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 09:02 AM

This is THE most important point yet raised in this or the other thread:

"I don't see why we should guarantee an artist against their failure to bring in an audience"

countered by

"If sufficient people don't turn up, that's not the failure of the performer, but rather of the club organiser who made the booking in the first place, and who was in a better position to know who might draw in people, and to do the things that might help in ensuring that."

If there is one single factor in the decline of the professional folk circuit through the past ten years, it's this belief by organisers that it's down to the artist to draw a crowd. Yes, many artists will and that's great, but if everyone only relies on the draw of reputations that were built elsewhere, who is ever going acquire a reputation?

This over-reliance on draw, by people who - in fairness probably don't have the time, skills nor inclination actively to Promote (a dark art in itself) - has led to the current situation, where only well known names and local heroes can guarantee a full house in many - perhaps a majority of clubs.

It's entirely understandable, given that the average club organiser is an enthusiast for music, not a skilled promoter, that this situation has arisen, but it's still a terrifying prospect for the future of this wonderful institution.

For if it continues, where are the draws of tomorrow to come from?

Yes, some youngsters who've been (briefly) media darlings will bring in a few curious people, but everyone else - between local star and big name - will wither and die like so many have before.

I'm not saying that organisers don't promote. Most do - and some do it very well, but some don't relise quite how much effort is involved to do it properly.

Ok, if they did they might just close the club (eek), but they might also get stuck in, get their team motivated, and find that in itself promotion can be really rewarding.

You need three types of audience to make sure every club gig will work (apart from booking good guests, of course).


1) You need ALL your regulars to turn out every time. That will only happen for a new name if they trust the organiser's judgement and are willing to try something new (which far too many seem not to be).

2) You need your atists' local fans to come. That IS down to the artist, but even top qulity full time pros may not yet have as many fans in your area as you assume, and there may be other reasons why the fans they do have may decide to give your club a miss and see that artist somewhere else another time.

3) You need floating folk fans in your area to give it a try. For that you need a great website with links from places where these people surf. You need a presence in the folk mags and local papers, and if possible local radio, and you need a reciprocal leafleting arrangement withh all the other like venues in the area - including libraries etc.

It has to be a team effort - and if a good team is properly motivated and managed they can achieve terriffic results - there are plenty of places where all this happens all the time - God bless them!


FInally you need to make sure the environment is right - to make sure that 2) and 3) come again. You need comfortable seats, pleasant lighting (how many clubs have bare bulbs just above the stage? - people may not notice but they won't come back), a safe environment where they don't have to run the gauntlet of drunks or grim, dead pubs, a REALLY welcoming smile at the door, the right ticket price, and floor spots that are appropriate for that act. (Oh and good beer - and a snack in the break, a really easy way to create instant welcome)

It can be done, it often is, and when it is, you can book anyone you like - and get a full house. Every time

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: TheSnail
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 09:24 AM

So which club do you run, GUEST, Anon?

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: M.Ted
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 09:43 AM

Snail--I am sure that your performers receive the best compensation that you can give them--and I don't mean to be critical of the way that you handle your affairs. My initial comment was really an observation, not a suggestion.

I will rephrase my point--If there were a lot of opportunities to earn a solid, steady wage by performing folk music, more would enter the arena, more would stay with it, and the music would be enhanced.

The $64,000 Question, of course, is, "How do you make that happen?".   There certainly are a lot of ways to do it, but the real question is, "Who wants to?"

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Rasener
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 09:53 AM

>>If sufficient people don't turn up, that's not the failure of the performer, but rather of the club organiser who made the booking in the first place, and who was in a better position to know who might draw in people, and to do the things that might help in ensuring that.
<<

Couldn't agree with you more MoH

I must say though, its bloody difficult turning a performer down when you know they are very good, but doubt they will attract enough bums on seats for the style of club that you run.
This is where honesty comes in. If the performer is not what you are looking for - tell them and tell them why. You are not being rude to them. I think theer is nothing worse than a performer playing at a club, that is not suitable for what they do. That is the organisers job to explain the style of club and if you think no, then say no.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Midchuck
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 10:01 AM

If sufficient people don't turn up, that's not the failure of the performer, but rather of the club organiser who made the booking in the first place, and who was in a better position to know who might draw in people, and to do the things that might help in ensuring that.

IMO, it's both.

Peter.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 10:15 AM

It has actually been down to the professionals to promote themselves,[e. g.Jez Lowe amongst others, sending out a monthly circular to his fans as to where he will be playing].when it should actually be the organisers responsibility.
other pros,pay for space with adverts in folk magazines,some like myself use the internet to promote ourselves.
when I first started going to folk clubs they were all full,regardless of the guest,most clubs had a membership system which encouraged,people to come back regularly, once they had joined,the organiser had a list of names and adresses.
So the organiser, knew, who in his locality was interested,and could contact them to find out why they were NOT coming any more,or to keep them informed of future events etc.http://www.dickmiles.com

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: GUEST,Santa
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 10:49 AM

I don't agree that it is the folk club organiser's job to contact all the known fans of a particular artist within some specified radius in order to advertise the gig. I rather doubt that most organisers have that kind of level of information - and wonder if it would breach the Data Protection Act if he/she did!

If not enough people turn up to pay for the guest, organisers just have to live and learn. I suspect that most leave some leeway for experimentation: I don't know this act but it's worth giving it a try. I know ours does this.

There also seems to be an attitude amongst some here that totally neglects the audience. Different people like different things, and will or will not show up according to their likes and dislikes. An organiser should be prepared to vary the style and range of guests at a club. This guarantees that all "members" will NOT turn up every week, and they should not be expected to. Tonight is Gracenotes, and I wouldn't miss them. Next week is a guitarist, and I'm a bit iffy. I wouldn't suggest the club restricted its bookings to my tastes, and I would object being expected to turn up regardless.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Brendy
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 10:52 AM

Collect the e-mail addresses of every person that comes through the door ... ask nicely, of course..., and send the ever increasing throng a bi monthly newsletter.

That way you not only get bums on seats, you get the right kind of bums...

B.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: GUEST, Anon
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 11:01 AM

I don't run a club TheSnail - but I do make my living in them (as you should have seen from my posts above) and am actively and fully involved in the promotion of folk music in the UK by other means (and not just my own career).

We touring musos see it all. It's sometimes blindingly obvious why some clubs thrive and some don't - it's just that as guests we're in the wrong role to advise the failing ones where they may be going astray (though I try to give tactful advice whenever it seems appropriate), specially when we're staying with the organisers who are almost always really nice people (and often good freinds now) - specially if we've just had a bad night with a poor turn-out and we're all a bit raw about it.

Which club do you run then?

Incidentally it's mainly because I don't know who you all are that I won't use my name. I may need to ring you tonight for a gig, or even be playing your club tomorrow.

But I'm not Anon just to protect my ability to blag gigs off you and the others here. If you knew my name the debate might soon become personal, and so would loose much of its value to us all. (And I do think it's being very valuable, even if you think we're wasting our breath).

Also I have band members and colleagues to think of. They might not approve of me making such comments, as it could impact on their careers too if my name was known - but I do believe this discussion is vital, and that people like me, who have day-to-day experience of the root problems right across the country (which few club organisers do), should be able to speak freely.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Brendy
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 11:17 AM

"If not enough people turn up to pay for the guest, organisers just have to live and learn."

'Learn' being the operative word.

That business model went into the recycle bin years ago, Santa.

People want to go out to be entertained.
You have to make them want to come to you.
Get the local heads around you, and explain to the people that it is our club.

Create that sense of community, and the community come to you.
It's just like E=mc2
It is a proven formula.

B.

B.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Rasener
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 11:35 AM

For what its worth

I publicise in local newspapers, put posters up in various places, post on various websites, use local radio, run my own website with all the info, hand out diaries at each event of future gigs, as well as word of mouth and flyers put through doors in the local village where the events are held.

I consider that is all part of what an organiser should do. Whats the point of booking somebody and not letting the world know.

On top of that, It also helps if the performer lets their fans know etc.

We had 80 last week, sold out for Flossie in December, already selling tickets for January and February.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Brendy
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 11:47 AM

There you go...

If more clubs thought a bit more like that, maybe they could afford the Martin Carthy's and Vin Garbutt's of this World a little more often.

B.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: GUEST, Anon
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 11:58 AM

Hi Vilan - yes I know, and you do a grand job!

Not all clubs are as 'concert orientated' as yours though, and I should have added that some don't actually need to do all that because they do have a loyal core, or just because the personality of the organiser is enough to make it all work (that's quite common too).

It's the clubs where it doesn't, or where they're constrained to only booking sure-fire names, or only local acts, to the detriment of the long-term viability of the existing guest/foorspot system that I was addressing.

Just to be even more topical...

A friend once said to me that quite a few organsiers are keen performers, so are actually only interesed in booking people who'll pull a big crowd for them to play to.

There may be some truth in that and I'd not be the one to cast the first stone. If I was ever to run a club (and I think about doing so often, specially when the gigs are not going so well!) that would be my motivation too.

But it begs the question I raised earlier.

What happens when the big names retire?

PS Hi Santa - point taken, but if you'd been assured that the guitarist was going to give you a great evening because they're a great performer, and maybe had some proof in the form of a review read out at the previous night or endorsements from people you respect, you'd give it go, wouldn't you? I do hope so!

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Rasener
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 12:09 PM

>>What happens when the big names retire?<<

Most of us will probably be dead by then LOL

Bring on the Kerfuffles and Mawkin:Causleys !!!

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 12:32 PM

well everyone knows who I am,and I hope that being above board about my identity is respected ,I am hoping that out of this dialogue,some improvements can be made,while I have strong opinions,I do accept that every folkclub is different and that what I advocate may not work for everyone.
I do stand by everything I have said about guest admission pricing,and about membership and keeping records of people adresses[with their permission],so that they can be informed of future events [that is sensible business practice,and any suggestion it might contravene some data act is laughable].Dick Miles

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: GUEST, Anon
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 12:39 PM

But they're not interested in doing clubs. Not many of the youngsters are - or not for long anyway.

If there is to be a pool of good performers willing to do all the things that touring club pros have to do, then the clubs have to play their part in the bargain and do what you advocate Villan, not what TheSnail advocates: Leave it all up to the artist to build his reputation in outer space somehow and then ride on his coat-tails.

I repeat, the artist may be visiting that area for the first time, and he hasn't got a clue how your club operates, where the promotion outlets are and whether it's a nice room etc. (and he can't do anything about it if it's not).

And what's he supposed to do when his fans say they don't think much of the club, but its the only one they can get to?

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: TheSnail
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 12:39 PM

GUEST, Anon

All you Anons look the same to me. It's hard to know which said what.

I don't run a club TheSnail

I rather thought you didn't. My question was meant to be somewhat ironic. You seemed to be very confident about how to do it.

On the points in your earlier post -
1) What are we supposed to do? Fine them for non-attendance? Write a stroppy letter to their parents? Send out the truancy officer?
2) Not sure what the club organisers are supposed to do about that.
3) Yes, of course we have a website and do all of that and everything else that The Villan said but still you want a guarantee if people would rather stay in and watch Eastenders than come out and hear you?

I'm Bryan Creer one of, at the last count, ten residents at the Lewes Arms Folk Club but I should make clear that all opinions expressed here are my own.

Sorry Brendy but Santa has it right. What other business model do you want?

As I see it, the club organisers' priority is to put entertainment in front of an audience, not to provide an audience for professional folkies. If you think otherwise, just remember how much you pay us.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Santa
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 12:43 PM

Brendy: I'll mention to the organiser of our moderately-successful club that the business model went out years ago. Oh, dear.

Anon: I hope so, but my interests lie more in song than guitar instrumentals, however well played. I did go to a Martin Simpson concert once, some years ago, and enjoyed it, but he did sing a few songs as well. (OK, not as well as he played guitar....) I have other things I like doing apart from listening to folk song/music, if I'm pretty sure I won't enjoy an evening then I'll do them instead. I go most weeks - it would take wild horses to drag me to an Irish pub playing mad diddley-diddley all night....but each to their own.

Talk about timing - just had a call that Gracenotes have cancelled. The very short notice replacement is a guitarist......... (not Martin Simpson).

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: TheSnail
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 12:43 PM

GUEST, Anon

TheSnail advocates: Leave it all up to the artist to build his reputation in outer space somehow and then ride on his coat-tails.

I have never said anything remotely resembling that and, frankly, find it offensive.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Rasener
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 12:48 PM

>>As I see it, the club organisers' priority is to put entertainment in front of an audience, not to provide an audience for professional folkies.<<

Surely its both. Of course you want to entertain the public and thats what you expect the performer to acheive.

If you get a low turnout after all the publicity or the performer doesn't come up to expectation, you don't book them again.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: TheSnail
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 12:50 PM

Captain Birdseye

I do stand by everything I have said about guest admission pricing

I'm still not sure what you mean by this, Captain. Are you advocating paying all artists the same fee or using the cheaper artists to subsidise the more expensive?

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: GUEST, Anon
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 01:00 PM

Sorry - but some people do seem to think we just somehow acquire a following from nowhere by magic, and so believe that merely announcing that the guest next week is XX is enough, and that seemed to be what you were endorsing with your comment "I don't see why we should guarantee an artist against their failure to bring in an audience."

I've not been to your club yet but I do know you're not like that there (I'd understood it was run by someone else). My apologies.

I'm used to playing to full club rooms and festival main stages, but I've had my share of disasters, and witnessed other good acts playing to two men and a dog that deserved better.

Of course no-one pays you, but as my old Dad used to say all the time - 'if a job's worth doing it's worth doing properly,' and 'the more you put in the more you get out.'

I spend all my time trying to ensure full rooms - for my benefit mainly, but also the club's, and I know a lot about it because it's in my interests to do so.

Yes, I'll always accept a percentage even with no guarantee if that's what clubs prefer - but if so I MUST be confident they're also doing their bit to get people to come - otherwise what would be the point? I have a family to feed.

Those clubs that have a similar approach, and are willing to see the bigger picture are the real stars.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: TheSnail
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 01:19 PM

GUEST, Anon

What I meant was that if we have built the website, paid for the advertising, sent out the fliers, put up the posters and told the local papers (who will get it wrong) and still get an audience of three men and a parrot I don't see why we should guarantee a minimum fee, especially if the guest is claiming to be a star of stage, screen and festival.

There are two clubs in Lewes so you may be confusing us with the Royal Oak, an equally conscientious and successful club.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 01:23 PM

Snail,I am advocating that guest admission prices should be always the same,as they always used to be in the days when all folk clubs were full.
I think your system sends out all the wrong messages to the public,Do you charge the same amounts for all your workshops?.
If you dont why should one workshop be more expensive,if you do why should workshops be different from folk clubs.Check Mate.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Banjiman
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 01:35 PM

Captain....The first 2 nights at
Kirkby Fleetham Folk Club are free....thanks to the commitment of the Pub Landlord to helping make this a success (he's paying the acts fees). My preferred arrangements following this honeymoon period will be to agree 80% of the door to guests with a lowish minimum guarantee....but I WILL do the promotional legwork...you might have already noticed that!.....the price on the door is therefore somewhat dependent on how much the act wants.

I am keeping 20% to allow me not only to do decent promotion, I am also keen to ensure that the support acts (there will generally be 2) at least have their expenses covered......where possible the support acts will include 1 "young/ new" performer(s) it is important that they feel that they are also getting a "proper" gig to.

That's the theory anyway, Ill report back when I have been running 6 months!!!!

Paul

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: TheSnail
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 02:02 PM

Captain, if you just answer my question, I will be able to give you a considered response. Are you advocating paying all artists the same fee or are you suggesting we subsidise the more expensive ones from the takings on the nights when we have cheaper ones?

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: GUEST, Anon
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 02:10 PM

Thankyou for clarifying that Bryan. Yes I'm well aware of both clubs and know the key people involved (I shold have guessed when you mentioned how close there are).

There are clubs, however, who operate as I describe, and rely entirely on the artists pulling power. That delivers poor results on a first booking uet when they don't get enough people on the first visit they're never invited back (it's even happend to me).

A few people here have endorsed that approach, but I think that's horribly unfair and ciminally short-sighted.

If they the performance was weak, of course no one would expect them to be re-booked, but if they were good, and went down very well with that small audience, then surely the sensible thing would be to assume that two to three years later their pulling power will have improved, but, more importantly, the people who DID come last time will act as advocates and persuade the doubters to be there this time.

With that attitude everyone wins - but not everyone is willing to take the broad view.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Brendy
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 02:11 PM

"If not enough people turn up to pay for the guest, organisers just have to live and learn"

I took that statement as being relative to your Folk Club.
It's a fairly laissez faire attitude, and if the club is only 'moderately successful', then there is room for improvement.

It's in everyone's interest to have a vibrant, living, scene.

"What I meant was that if we have built the website, paid for the advertising, sent out the fliers, put up the posters and told the local papers (who will get it wrong) and still get an audience of three men and a parrot..."

Very negative outlook, really...

B.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: GUEST, Anon
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 02:17 PM

Re fees and door prices... Yes I hate to see my and my other performing friends' abilities pre-judged by someone's idea of a fair door price, but I do understand why it's done and I guess it's only reasonable.

But the question you ask the Captain misses a point.

The higher-feed artists will bring in more people, thus earning his higher fee, while the lower-feed artist pulls in fewer, so expects to get less, that's reasonable. And if they're all on a percentage against a low guarantee - which is fine IF the club is doing everything right, then that's fair too. The maths only works your way if you have a completely full room for both acts, which would be unlikely.

No-one would surely suggest that all artists should get the same fee - execept the few marxist moles left in the MU (we know who you are!)

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: TheSnail
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 02:37 PM

Brendy

Very negative outlook, really...

Brendy, we pay our guests from the money we take on the door. E=mc2.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: TheSnail
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 02:47 PM

GUEST, Anon

Can't quarrel with your post of 14 Nov 07 - 02:10 PM but, in the end, all that the organiser can sell is the artist's pulling power.

it's even happend to me

Even YOU! I wonder if I'll ever find out who you are.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Brendy
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 02:52 PM

"we pay our guests from the money we take on the door".

Excellent!

The more money you take on the door, from increased numbers due to placement advertising = mc2

B.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: TheSnail
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 03:01 PM

Brendy, the three men don't cover the fee and the parrot gets in free.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Maryrrf
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 03:02 PM

I can't help but feel here that the folk club organizers are taking a beating and being subjected to a lot of criticisn - could somebody please give them credit for doing a whole lot of work for no pay and very little reward, except the hope that their efforts will keep folk music alive at a grassroots level??? Reading this thread they must be feeling that they are 'damned if they do and damned if they don't'. I've been in both positions - performer and concert organizer. Of course it is incumbent upon both to drum up as much of an audience as they can. The best scenario is if the club organizer can do as much local promotion as possible, and the artist can e-mail or otherwise inform his/her fans of upcoming gigs. I only do a monthly concert series and between the website, making sure I get notices out to appropriate publications, flyers, bookings, etc. it takes up a LOT of time. We try to keep our ticket prices the same but IF we have a bigger name guest who charges a bit more, we do slightly increase the ticket price, and I make no apologies for that. We try to have a mix of well known and unknown performers, and book based on what we like, what we think our audience will like, and also try to achieve a 'balance' in our acts - i.e. instrumental acts, singers, etc. We only want traditional performers - we make no bones about it and state it clearly on our website. Again, no apologies - that was why we started the series. Yes there are things you can do to ensure a good, steady attendance, but there are times when no matter what - people just don't seem to show up and it's hard to predict. A couple of times when that has happened and the artist had agreed upon a percentage of the door, we dipped into the kitty and paid them a reasonable sum even though they didn't 'draw' an audience. Anyway, I really think we should give these folk club organizers a break and thank them for their efforts. They do a lot of work, make no money from it and I would wager that at times they have reached into their own pockets to subsidize the clubs from time to time. Not only that, they have to deal with venue problems, landlord issues, etc. It's very often a thankless task, and I doubt anybody would choose to do it unless they truly loved folk music.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: GUEST, Anon
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 03:02 PM

"in the end, all that the organiser can sell is the artist's pulling power"

No no no - that's excatly where I'm disagreeing with you.

All the organiser can sell is the artist's ABILITY!

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: M.Ted
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 03:06 PM

I have gone to The Snail's link, and found that, in addition to his folk club, the Lewes Arms seems to be a nexus of Dwyle Flonging (which seems a laudable and noble endeavor). It brings to mind a question-which I hope will not be interpreted as being critical of this cultural institution.

Many folk clubs, and folk music related activities seem to take place in pubs. Is this typical in the UK?

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Jim Lad
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 03:11 PM

"could somebody please give them credit for doing a whole lot of work for no pay" Damn right. I'll say it again.....
Hats off to the club organizers & volunteers. I will never understand what you get out of it yourselves but I am certainly beholding to you.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Brendy
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 03:13 PM

The organiser should be selling the folk-club first and foremost, in my opinion.

Musicians have websites; they often have their own mailing lists as well. If the artist is prepared to go to those lengths to promote him/herself, and associate themselves with the venues they play at, then it behoves the organiser to keep up his end of the bargain.

Badly run places are 2 a penny, and any self-respecting musician will stay away from them. It can be bad for their image, self and other aspects of it.

B.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Banjiman
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 03:15 PM

MTed....oh yes, folky activities in pubs is completely traditional and they are still the mainstay venues of Folk Clubs in the UK......I'm very pleased to say.

Paul

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: GUEST, Anon
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 03:18 PM

Maryrrf, we all know that, and if you look above there are been plenty of comments to that effect in amongst (and I'm for ever championing folk club organisers elsewhere) - but not all organisers are as effective as you, some actually don't make much effort if truth be told, and, sadly, working very hard, loving the music, and being a nice person etc may not be enough to save a club. It also does not guarantee fair terms for artists - who are professionals and deserve a proper deal. These issues do need to be raised, and if no-one ever does just because of the reasons you mention, things will not improve.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Banjiman
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 03:21 PM

Brendy....there are also some pretty shoddy musicians as well who don't do much to help promote their gigs. But like shoddy venues, they will not survive.

Do you not think that generally there is a good partnership between act & venue?....that is my experience as part of an act and I will strive to make it the case now I have set up a venue.

Most "folk" venues in the UK will certainly have their own websites and mailing lists....and often many other marketing tools as well....you are starting to annoy me now!!!!

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Brendy
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 03:36 PM

"But like shoddy venues, they will not survive"

Exactly.
Shoddy musicians should be avoided at all costs.

Look, Banjiman, I'm watching complaints given by musicians about the system they work within.
I would sincerely hope that this kind of attitude isn't endemic within the Folk scene.

I'm not criticising those who actually do get their finger out, and judging by the language of your second paragraph, you are not one of those.

But there is a problem out there.
Get annoyed if you must...

B.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: TheSnail
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 03:47 PM

GUEST, Anon

All the organiser can sell is the artist's ABILITY!

No we can't because we can't put that up on a website or leaflet or poster. All we can sell is your track record. Only YOU can sell your ability.