Stealing gigs from the pro's

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Banjiman
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 03:52 PM

Brendy...

"I'm not criticising those who actually do get their finger out, and judging by the language of your second paragraph, you are not one of those. "

Can I just check...you do not think I'm getting my finger out?

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Brendy
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 04:08 PM

Yes.... sorry about that; I spotted it, but thought ......

.... anyway...., I believe the attitude by the organiser (venue owner) is vital. An open, forward-looking, energetic person is needed, because at the bottom line is the human being, and communication is important.

Robbie Robertson famously said in 'The Last Waltz' that "...the musician is the low man on the totem-pole".
It's too often true with less than scrupulous venues.

I spend quite a lot of my time 'organising' as well; keeping together a scene over two countries, where before 'our' arrival there was nothing, except the overwhelming belief among the natives that Mike Scott and The Waterboys, The Pogues, and U2 was what one called 'Irish Music'.

No, Banjiman, I'm not criticising you.
I'm criticising the complacency in general.

B.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: TheSnail
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 04:19 PM

M.Ted

Many folk clubs, and folk music related activities seem to take place in pubs. Is this typical in the UK?

Yes.

Dwyle Flunking. I'm the one with the shotgun. The one with the chicken on her head is Valmai Goodyear.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 04:22 PM

folk club organisers ,put in a lot of hard work,which I appreciate,and some of them notably Ted and Ivy Poole[Swindon]have done it for nearly fifty years,fair play to them.
Snail,I am not advocating paying artists the same fee,I am advocating that doorprices should be the same for all guests. after that,
How you raise the money, to pay for guests is up to the organiser,he can subsidise guest nights by having singers nights,or even fundraising events like ceilidhs/ garden fetes,it has been tried and proved successful,so it doesnt have to be as: you are trying to say robbing one artist to pay for another.
I remember Alex Campbell,handing back part of his fee[the percentage part of the door]and taking his guaranteed fee only ,saying to the organiser,keep that for the club.
and more recently Tony Wilson giving his fee from Stockton folk club,back so that the club could get something to help Ron Angel with his post hospitalisation.
I have just visted Lowestoft folk clubs website,where Tom Mconville and David Wood are priced at 4 pounds,and Cockersdale are priced at 5 pounds, in my opinion both these groups are extremely good,highly professional, both have to come a long way ,and both of whom I would enjoy equally,so why the difference in price,what it says subconsciously is that one is better than the other[which is not so].
now every organiser has a right to run things their way,but if it was me[in Tom Mconville or any of the other 4 pound artists], Iwould be extremely pissed off.
I have played this club several times and had good evenings[on one occasion I sold 14 recordings]Their website is very good,and am sure in every other way the club is still very well run,and is a good club.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Banjiman
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 04:26 PM

Brendy,

I think the attributes you ask of a club organiser are the same as are required by a successful musician, a successful salesman, a successful ....well anything really....it's funny your (quoted) comment regarding the musician being a low man on the totem pole....I really cannot see things like this, the whole point of folk clubs is to provide a theatre for the musician (pro, semi-pro or amateur).

How can that put the musician at the bottom of the pole?

Probably a different argument in a more commercial setting, where the aim of the venue is to make money not music. Looking at your website, this seems to be more of your experience?

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: TheSnail
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 04:29 PM

GUEST, Anon

It also does not guarantee fair terms for artists - who are professionals and deserve a proper deal.

I'm sorry, but why does calling yourself professional entitle you to any special treatment? Surely it puts you under an even greater obligation to deliver the goods.

Thanks Maryrrf and Jim Lad. It's nice to know that someone doesn't see us as unscrupulous and complacent.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Banjiman
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 04:30 PM

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: PoppaGator
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 04:46 PM

Dwyle Flunking?

I don't think we have that in the US, and would appreciate more info. I looked at some of the pictures (not all), and have absolutely no idea what's going on, except that everyone seems to be having a good time, most likely due to their high degree of intoxication.

Not that there's anything wrong with that...

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Brendy
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 04:48 PM

"the whole point of folk clubs is to provide a theatre for the musician"

If only that were the case all the time, Banjiman.

"Looking at your website, this seems to be more of your experience?"
No, it is not my experience, actually.

If I wanted to get rich at this game, I would have done so a long time ago.

B.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Rasener
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 04:48 PM

We now offer a guarantee and 80% of the door, I now ask/negotiate with the performer what would be an acceptable ticket price that they would be happy with.
There are a number of performers who say immediately what the door price must be.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Rasener
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 04:51 PM

If I wanted to get rich at this game, I wouldn't do it.
Most organisers including myself do it for nowt.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Brendy
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 04:55 PM

If I were to have charged venues the 15% over the years, instead of just putting people in contact with each other, well, the villa in the Caribbean would be where I would be sitting now.

Brilliant, Villan!
We're all philanthropists

B.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: TheSnail
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 05:02 PM

Captain Birdseye

Snail,I am not advocating paying artists the same fee,I am advocating that doorprices should be the same for all guests.

I'm really struggling to get my head round this. Do you actually believe that punters should be expected to pay the same to see, for instance, me as they should to see, for instance, Martin Carthy? Or are you saying that, because I'm not as good as Martin Carthy, I shouldn't be allowed to perform at all? If we set a fixed ticket price between the two extremes, we lose on MC because we don't cover his fee and we lose on me because nobody turns up at all.
Alternatively, if we sell out both nights, part of what people paid to see me goes to pay MC. Is that fair?

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: TheSnail
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 05:06 PM

PoppaGator

I looked at some of the pictures (not all), and have absolutely no idea what's going on,

That's all right, neither have most of the participants.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: TheSnail
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 05:09 PM

Banjiman

the whole point of folk clubs is to provide a theatre for the musician

Have to disagree with you there Banjiman, I think the whole point of folk clubs is to provide entertainment for the paying public from whoever is able to provide it.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Banjiman
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 05:10 PM

Bryan....yes, absolutely.....and how do we do that?

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Banjiman
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 05:15 PM

without a venue, audience and musician (doesn't have to be that order)we don't have a club....we are all dependent on each other and we all get something out of it or we wouldn't do it.....if one part of this equation is wrong it doesn't work.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: TheSnail
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 05:19 PM

Captain Birdseye

How you raise the money, to pay for guests is up to the organiser,he can subsidise guest nights by having singers nights,or even fundraising events like ceilidhs/ garden fetes,

I must be getting tired, I'd slipped past that bit. You call yourself a professional and you want us to hold charity fund raisers to pay your fee? Stuff that for a game of soldiers.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 05:21 PM

Well Snail,this system was used for years,and still is used and works well.
Iam saying punters should pay the same for every guest,in those clubs that operate membership,the members[once they have paid membership get in cheaper]a sort of loyalty payment,the more times they come and support the club,the more value they get.
YES I do believe,that if you Bryan Creer,are good enough to do a gig,thenThe punters should pay the same price as for any other guest.
I did my first gig in 1976,at TheKingston upon ThamesFolkClub,[JimMageean and AnniFentiman were in the audience and did floor spots],the place was packed[as it was at that time every week],regardless of guests,a month later Tony Rose[an established artist]was on,it cost the SAME to get in.
Snail,you had better get your head round it because that was how it was: in the days when folkclubs were packed,I dont know how long yoyuhave been involved,but I have been going to clubs since 1965.DickMiles

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Banjiman
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 05:26 PM

KFFC jumble sale coming up!

Captain Birdseye...are you serious? You must be on the wind up?

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: oggie
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 05:31 PM

I know I keep going on about "business" but that's what it boils down to. Clubs/venues that lose money close, acts that don't make a living find something else to do, large groups don't play many clubs because few clubs can afford the fee a three or four person group needs to keep going. A lot of the young groups are playing festivals because they can afford the fees, ditto Arts Centres who have enough seats to generate the revenue.

Paul's point (Banjiman) is subtle but I agree, clubs provide the building/enviroment (ie "the theatre") in which the artist can work. No organisers, no "theatres" equals no gigs.

It is also business that some acts command higher fees than others, the public will pay more to see some acts than others, sorry Capn but unless you are advocating that organisers pay more expensive acts from their own pocket (why should they?) or that somehow people will pay over the odds for less expensive acts it won't work in the long term.

Banjiman is doing a superb job of trying to set up his club but also bear in mind that his landlord has also taken a hard headed business decision. Paul has sold him the proposition and he's said to himself "Down the road this is good business and I'll make money from it".

All the best

Steve

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: TheSnail
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 05:33 PM

I've been going to clubs since 1969 Dick and I've noticed that things have changed. The clubs aren't full every week anymore, punters are more selective. If we charged the same every time, for my night the room would be empty and we'd lose money; on Carthy's night the room would be full and we'd lose money because we couldn't cover his fee. That may not be how you'd like it to be but it is the reality and, as organisers, we have to live in the real world.

(and I wouldn't be in the least offended if a differential pricing system implied that I wasn't quite as good as Carthy.)

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Rasener
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 05:35 PM

Brendy
>>We're all philanthropists<<

Is somebody who makes a donation to the sperm bank a philanthropist?

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Brendy
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 05:48 PM

Could be called a lot of things, Villan ;-)

As long as he's not in it for the bobs, I don't mind.

The scene is more important than the individual.

B.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: GUEST, Anon
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 05:53 PM

I said:

"All the organiser can sell is the artist's ABILITY!"

Snail said:

"No we can't because we can't put that up on a website or leaflet or poster. All we can sell is your track record. Only YOU can sell your ability."

I say

But we can't sell our ability until we get there - by which time it's too late!

Only YOU can do that - and you CAN sell our ability. You can put our tracks up on your website - or on your myspace site if you have one (which perhaps you should). You can quote our reviews (from our sites) on yours, and in your leaflets (if you bother to print them - which many don't). You can take the time to sell the night, properly, in your parish notices, instead of just saying, err next week we've got xxx. You can speak to the more influential regulars and give us a good old beef-up. You can create a buzz. We're doing a gig in Newcastle or somewhere, for goodness sake, and we don't even know what your place looks like, how it runs or what sort of people go!

Now you may do all these things (we'll see if/when I play there).

I'm not attacking your club. I'm telling those who don't know that many clubs don't.

Look, YOU believe we're good enough, or you shouldn't have booked us in the first place. Now you have somehow to transfer that belief to your audience. Your punters may have never heard of us - or perhaps they only have the vaguest notion of what we do. They're not going to go looking at our websites unless you tell them to, and tell them in a way that makes them want to. You have to build a sense of anticipation. They won't come to the gig unless you've sold us - properly, using all the tools that we provide. (Some clubs don't even bother to put up the posters we send - just lay them out on the table on the night of the gig).

By the time we arrive to 'sell our ability' - if the punters are not there, IT IS WAY TOO LATE!!!

And - as I have taken huge pains to explain, if you only rely on booking already-famous artists on track-record only you are missing out on a lot of great music, condemning newer artists to the graveyard, and doing the folk scene as a whole no favours - but maybe you don't care about that.




Then again

I said

"It also does not guarantee fair terms for artists - who are professionals and deserve a proper deal."

You said

"I'm sorry, but why does calling yourself professional entitle you to any special treatment? Surely it puts you under an even greater obligation to deliver the goods."

I say

Of course it means we need to deliver the goods - I think you'll find most of us do, in spades. But we'd prefer to deliver them to a full-ish house most of the time, thankyou.

And of course calling ourselves professional does not entitle us to any special treatment, because every guest who plays your club is entitled to a fair deal. But you'll usualy find that professionals are professional - interms of income, attitude and method - and they expect, nay assume, a certain level of competance by the other party. They set high standards for themselves, and hope - repeat, hope - to find those matched by their clients - the clubs, but they don't always. It's a sad fact but true.


Again, caveat: lots of clubs ARE great, and many thanks for all the hard work everyone does. This only applies to the few clubs who are not - though we should all strive to improve in every way we can, should we not?

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Banjiman
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 05:57 PM

Oggie,

Absolutely agree about the Landlord....he has to make money out of this or at some point he will want rent for the room which makes a smaller pot to pay the acts or higher prices for the audience.....

or he goes under like a lot of other pubs around here.

Paul

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Banjiman
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 06:03 PM

Guest ANON....you are over playing your hand and I suspect preaching to the converted on this thread.

Yes there are bad clubs.....so don't play 'em!

Paul

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Brendy
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 06:08 PM

That would still leave the problem, Paul, of lack of decent venues.
It's much easier, I think, to rectify a situation, than to have to start from scratch.

Good luck with the club, by the way.
Just keep telling the landlord to keep the faith.

B.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Banjiman
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 06:19 PM

Brendy,

I do spend rather a lot of time getting gigs for and attending gigs (and playing a bit too...yes even banjo players occasionally get paid gigs!) with my other half.

I am fully aware of the problems associated with some clubs and other venues....however if it was that terrible, and we weren't getting a lot of pleasure from it, we would find another way of making that part of our income.

Part of my motivation for starting
KFFC
was to try and do things differently in terms of marketing and to try and attract additional audience to "folk". Time will tell if this will work.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: TheSnail
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 06:34 PM

GUEST, Anon

If you want us to sell you to our audience, you need to sell yourself to us. I'm not sure that you're going the best way about it.

As amateurs, we do our best. If that isn't good enough, find alternative outlets or organise your own gigs. It can be done. As Folkiedave described, Spiers and Boden did it in Sheffield a while ago. It can also fail. Last year a national name did a gig at an arts centre about fifteen miles away. With hardly any ticket sales, the organisers contacted the local folk scene about a week before the gig. We did what we could but it was really too late; there was an audience of about 20. Around the same time, a group we had booked a while before played another arts centre about 30 miles away. In a theatre that could probably have seated 150, they had a smaller audience than we gave them. This coming Saturday, a famous and long standing band are playing a venue about fifty yards away. We found out by chance a few days ago because they haven't done any perceptible local advertising. I would recommend you come and see Too Many Strings (including BBC Young Folk Awards finalist Dogan Mehmet) at the Lewes Arms instead.

Folk club organisers may not be perfect but we get the job done and we're bloody good value for money.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Brendy
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 06:37 PM

I'll link to it on my webpage.

I do passionately believe that the audiences are out there.

Over here, we had to change people's perceptions (Riverdance, for all it's faults helped a lot here).
But where 'Irish Pubs' abroad have put the majority of their focus on 'Come all ye bold heroes' kind of stuff, I, and others like me have been pushing the music of East Clare and Donegal, and proving that 'Matty Groves' is a hell of a lot more powerful a song than, for instance, Whiskey in the Jar.

English pubs, abroad, generally are football/sports places with absolutely no lip-service paid to your rich folk tradition.

You know Paul, I'm sure, that if the audience isn't immediately evident, you have to go out there and canvass them. That's what you seem to be doing, and more power to you.

B.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: GUEST, Anon
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 06:52 PM

I'm very sorry that you see this as some kind of attack on you or your club Bryan. I explained that I don't know what you do, but I do know your club is successful. Organisers differ enormously in their approaches. Your stance comes over as defending the less motivated. I was hoping you might stand back and see the wider picture. But never mind.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: TheSnail
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 07:10 PM

GUEST, Anon

Just try and remember that our duty as organisers is more towards our audience than it is towards providing you with making a living. We want you there, but we'd get by without you far better than you'd get by without us.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Brendy
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 07:22 PM

.... moderately successful ...

I see.

B.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Brendy
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 08:08 PM

I sat at home one night a few years ago staring at the box.
Unbeknownst to me, three blocks away, Richard Thompson was starting up his set.

Now, I'm not an avid follower of Richard's website, neither am I on his mailing list, but I've always wanted to see him live.
The venue that put him on never even put up a poster.

Now, when I think of all the ex-pat community over in Oslo; the Irish, English, Scottish, and Welsh, I could nearly have guaranteed a full house if it was me that was putting the gig on.

I brought Sharon Shannon and her 4 piece to Norway for the first time, a few years ago, and people came from Sweden and Denmark for the gig.
PLUS: We didn't charge a penny at the door.

It's called 'providing a service', Snail.
Some do it, some don't.

B.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: TheSnail
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 08:37 PM

Your point, with reference to UK folk club organisers, Brendy?

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Brendy
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 08:40 PM

That part of our duty as organisers is to provide a service to the public.

That thinking works no matter where you are.

B.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: TheSnail
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 08:45 PM

I quite agree. What's your problem?

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Brendy
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 08:49 PM

Seems like you're not doing that...

B.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: TheSnail
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 08:59 PM

What grounds do you have for saying that?

Tell me in the morning. It's past my bedtime.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Brendy
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 09:00 PM

Goodnight... :-)

B.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Brendy
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 11:05 PM

Good morning, Bryan!

... Well, using your venue as a blackmailing weapon to get musicians to accept your terms, was never a vote winner for me.

Too often in your posts I read the words "It's not my/our job to ..."

What exactly is your job, then?
What are the aims of your club?

I'll get back to you once I have a look at the website.

B.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Jim Lad
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 11:13 PM

Serious thread drift here.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Rasener
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 02:30 AM

You are quite right Jim Lad.

It has become more of a "What the organsier should do for the pro"

Basically, if a pro is good enough or liked enough, they shouldn't have problems getting gigs.

Have a look at the gig lists of the more popular performers. They look as though they have enough work.

So if you as a performer think that people are nicking your gigs, then I seriously suggest you look at yourself and find out why. Are you not as good as you think you are (there are a lot out there who think that way). Are you promoting yourself in the best way possible.

Even if you get a gig at a club, you are unlikely to get another one for a couple of years after that, unless you have that certain something that have the audience gagging for you.

Remember, nobody owes anybody a living, its up to you to go out and get it.

I'll get me coat.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: GUEST, Anon
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 03:51 AM

It's a shame I'm not in a position to say who I am. Because if I could, and was also able to tell you some specific stories about what has happened to me, and others like me, at specific clubs up and down the land I don't think any of you would be suggesting for one moment that my posts are only about "What the organsier should do for the pro."

I really don't think you understand how bad the situation is in some places, where I presume you never go.

I'm talking about what organisers should try to do - PERIOD. For themselves, for their clubs, for the music, AND for the pro. It's only coming across as though I'm making demands that because TheSnail has been so dismissive of my points, and I've been trying to get him to see beyond his current attitude. I'm sorry if I've seemed cross at times but it's really really frustrating trying to open up debate about this, and to see good, well-meaning, hard-working people (performers and organisers) fail because these issues are not as well understood across the board as they should be.

Villan - you know me well and your post above is addressed to a very different type of performer, ok? I don't think people are nicking my club gigs for one minute. I've addressed that above. I think you'd agree that I AM good enough and liked enough (for your club at least :-) - but I still can no longer get enough gigs to make a proper living in the clubs and festivals only - because there are just not enough out there. Only a score or so of artists can.

Why? Because so many clubs have stopped booking guests, or reduced their guest bookings. Why? Because they've had too many half-full nights for supposedly 'good enough / liked enough' guests. Why? becuase they didn't understand that even 'good enough / liked enough' guests need to be marketed properly - specially on their first visit. Does this matter? I think so. Can anything be done? Yes. Should I suggest some solutions?

Err, no - you say.

Now you Villan do it right - no worries. I believe TheSnail's club does do - we shall see, but a lot of clubs don't - for lots of good reasons of course that we all know and understand well. But that doesn't mean that we shouldn't try. Yes it's hard work - but most of the people who do it well have a team to spread the load. It's not easy building up a team - but there are ways and means. There is support available - but some people are not interested in recognising they have a problem until it's too late. Seems you can't force even a singing horse to drink.

I could list dozens of people that play both your clubs, who are damn good, famous within the folk world, who play big festivals every year - yet STILL find themselves playing to rooms that are only a quarter full - fairly frequently. I know because we talk about these things, and I go see them and witness it.

The suggestions I've made are in good faith - for the benefit of all.

If people choose to see them otherwise - well, that just underlines the problem.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Rasener
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 04:26 AM

Anon
My comments were global and not aimed at anybody in particular.

I think festivals are a different kettle of fish. People pay good money to see a variety of performers. Some they like, some they don't. These people are music lovers and enjoy what the festival offers. It is unusual to see a performer do more than 1 hour as a gig, more likely 40/45 mins.

That is a lot different to listening to one artist do 90 minutes at a folk club or venue. That is where the organiser has to decide if a performer can entertain his/her audience sufficiently to make them want to come back. The target audience is not your festival goers, rather sit at home and watch the telly audience.If you can get them off the bums, they want to be entertained. I can see the reason why many clubs run at a quarter full.

I have many performers I love to see personally, but when I put my organiser hat on, I am a different person. I have to think of what the audience will like.

If I do book a pro, I have already decided that I think the audience will enjoy them.
However, i can't sit back and think that is enough. I need to let as many people know so that hopefully people who know and like that performer will come along too.
I also hope that the people who come along who trust my judgement but have never seen the performer before enjoy it enough to want to see them again.

Does all that make sense? I'll go and charge my battery up.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Jim Lad
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 04:31 AM

Things are changing, Anon. Not just in the Club scene but in other areas too. Folk is shifting over to other venues. The music industry is taking a serious hit with regards to sales (for some reason I'm enjoying that) and it's up to us to recognize the changes and take advantage of them.
The gap between the amateur and the pro is a whole lot narrower when it comes to making contact with the larger audience.
The Internet now has a serious role to play in our business and we all have equal access to this medium.
How/where you find your gigs today is not the same as it was ten years ago.
Change means opportunity. Take stock, change direction and go for it.
There is plenty of room for all of us.
Although one particular Football Club has possibly outlived its usefulness.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 04:39 AM

In response to anons post,my wholepoint about GUEST admission pricing,relates to Guest Anons marketing points.
By charging 4 pounds for Tom Mcconville and David Wood ,AND 5 pounds for Cockersdale your saying to your audience one group is better than another.[in this case quite untrue]
what an organiser should be doing is promoting all his guests equally,this system of pricing is totally unfair,and does not reflect the quality of the guests,but only how much the organiser has had to pay,including agents commission. the problem is that the more a venue has to pay for an artist,the more promotion the organiser will do.
if an organiser only has to pay an artist 50 pounds,he wont put the same effort into promotion as if he has to pay 400 pounds.
DickMiles

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Rasener
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 05:19 AM

Thats not true Dick

I would say that we need to promote even more for a not so well known performer.

just using Vin as an example. If I ever get to put him on, I am absolutely sure that a lot of people who haven't been before will snap the tickets up. Vin would be a sell out. Providing you do your normal promotion.

However a performer of lesser fame if any, needs a lot more publicity and a way that convices people they actually want to see this performer or at least find out what all the fuss is.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: GUEST,matt m
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 05:41 AM

"if an organiser only has to pay an artist 50 pounds,he wont put the same effort into promotion as if he has to pay 400 pounds"

Very true. But in London, the most expensive place to live in the whole world ever, the idea of regularly paying any musician anything even approaching £400 is simply a non-starter. (In my experience anyway. I'd be happy to be hear otherwise...)

You can find a room in the middle of nowhere for free – sometimes – but usually the lowest you can get away with paying for room hire is £50. (You may or may not have a PA and a soundman to pay for too.) I don't like charging more than £6 a ticket, I prefer £5, and I like to offer a concessions rate of, say, £4 or £3. You can cover your room hire cost, if it's as cheap as £50, quite easily on those terms: after 10 people come in, you can start paying the musician(s). That's the kind of model I vastly prefer.

But if you have to factor in a £200+ fee to a musician then that model is simply unworkable. You have to start doing things like paying that musician but not anyone else on the bill. Or electing to just have that one musician for the night and noone else. Or upping the ticket price. None of which I feel comfortable doing. Which I feel is my prerogative.