Tech: Acoustic gtr amplified via PA? How best?

Subject: Tech: Acoustic gtr amplified via PA? How best?
From: Nick
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 07:57 AM

Could do with some feedback on this today as we play this evening!

Had a practice yesterday before playing a gig tonight and am getting used to operating the PA I bought.

One thing I would like to improve if possible is the sound coming from the acoustic guitars. I realise that putting them through mics would be the best answer to get a decent 'guitar like' sound but that is not an option - I don't have enough (or suitable) mics and the two of us would probably not stand still enough to get a consistent sound!

I have a Fishman pickup which I take on and off my acoustic (which I believe is supposed to give a good sound) which goes straight into the input on the amp designed for such, Alastair's has a pre-amp on his guitar. The levels that come out are fine.

When we played live I must admit that I didn't think the guitar sound was bad, but listening to it last night on tape (I recorded it directly from the amp as all the instruments and voices are mixed through the amp) the guitar had sound that 'amplified twangy acoustic piezo pick up' sound which it would be nice to chop down on if possible.

Questions...

1 Is the sound on tape likely to be different or is it a 'true' representation?
2 Does the mix direct out of the amp to tape sound different than it does live - I think I read something somewhere that it does sound different? I particularly noticed that the bass was very up front whereas it didn't sound like that when we did it?
3 Are there some basic EQ settings that might make the guitar sound more like a guitar! If not such is life. I have a separate LOW MIDDLE HIGH on each channel. I realise every set up is different but any general hints would be handy

Other ones...

4 We are playing outside - anything to bear in mind?
5 We played in a hall yesterday at what we consider a similar volume level to today. As we have no monitor speakers we pointed the speakers towards us so we could hear. There were no feedback problems. Do you think we will get away with putting the speakers to the side and back of us - it's either that or trying to sort out monitoring

Something like:

  PA SPKR                                                                       PA SPKR
  
  
                                        US AND MICS
  
  
  
                                           AUDIENCE
  

There is an output called MONITOR on the amp which I presumed I could take a lead out into an amp and speakers but it didn't seem to make any noise through the amp which I can't pin down why yet. I was just going to use a small guitar amp as a monitor and can't see why nothing comes through - am I missing something obvious?

Thanks in advance

One other thing I noticed when practising. I am putting seven separate channels through the amp (it's a Phonics 1062 with 375 watts per side) - three vocal mics, two acoustic guitars, electric guitar and a bass - and the sound was fine generally. We are playing at a venue where we will be more 'background' music rather than high volume in yer face stuff (yesterday I would guess that we were only running at about 2 on a scale of 1 - 10 level-wise). I did notice sometimes when we were all playing together that certain elements rather overpowered others and (unless I imagined it) almost cut out other bits (bass mostly - and the vocals disappearing lower into the mix). I probably haven't explained that well , but is that normal/expected?

Probably in the future I will take the bass out and do that separately, but for today I quite wanted to make a recording off the mixer/amp to get an idea of how we performed and what we sound like with a view to improving in the future so wanted to include everything. As I said above the mix between the instruments and voices was basically fine and will serve our needs tonight.

Subject: RE: Tech: Acoustic gtr amplified via PA? How best?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 08:44 AM

There will possible be two separate controls for monitor. On each channel there will be "monitor send". This enables you to provide a "mix" in the monitors that is different from the main front-of-house mix. Secondly there will probably be a "monitor master volume" that turns the whole of the monitor signal up and down. I bet that there is also a way to use one of the internal amps to drive the monitor speakers from the monitor signal (using the other one for mono front-of-house) and there may be a switch somewhere to send the monitor signal one way or the other. A guitar amp will usually be too sensitive to run out of a "monitor" socket, and distort too much, but if you have a big old hifi amp that may do the job.

Make sure you use a mic in front of the electric guitar cabinet, and do not use the DI off the guitar amp.   It should be possible to DI the bass.

I think the phonic has "mid-sweep" mid controls. If the guitars are a bit sharp, set the sweep to about 1,000 hz and cut that frequency about 3 db. Use ears to adjust until they sound like guitars.

The guitars should be into the ultra hi-Z inputs on the Phonics. I have found them surprisingly good in the past. Alistair ought to be able to tweak the sound of his guitar if he has the usual three band mid-sweep graphic in a plastic box on the side (and he doesn't really need the ultra Hi-Z input because his pre-amp does the buffering for him). I don't like the fishman slot-ins, but the "rare earth" models let you blend between a mic in the pickup bar and a magnetic pickup, which may enable you to smooth out the sound. Get him to play while you take the amp out in front of the speaker and listen and twiddle, and then get him to stand out front with a long lead and twiddle the knobs on the side of his guitar (or vice versa). You may be able to smooth the sound off with a little bit of echo, reverb, or chorus.

You are right that using mics on the guitars will be a disaster. Do not go there!

Don't forget that people are soggy and soak up sound so when you have people in the room you may want that bit of "bite" you are planning to remove to get a more guitar-like sound.

Tape out always sounds different, because the limitations of the speakers (and the effect of soggy people) are taken out of play.

If you put the speakers perhaps a little bit forward of as in your diagram, then you can angle them in a bit to hear yourself, and if you get feedback, angle them out a bit more.

"Ducking" is probably due to overloading an input or two (or maybe the fx unit). Keep an eye on the input level lights, and/or try turning the gain (the input gain) on the bass down a bit and the main fader up a bit to compensate if necessary, or turn up the stage amp a bit and leave the mixer input down a bit.   Same applies to the electric guitar.

Bass is deceptive. If you can actually hear it live, it will almost certainly be too loud recorded.

The open air soaks up power. Just keep turning it up until it's loud enough.

Subject: RE: Tech: Acoustic gtr amplified via PA? How best?
From: GUEST,Jeff
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 07:33 PM

In addition to the previous response I would suggest running the bass slightly different than the guitars, both acoustic and electric. If possible try it this way: 1/4" patch cord from bass to a di(direct box), 1/4" short(3 ft or less) patch cord out to a small bass amp, 3 prong low impedence cord(a mic cord)out to the PA channel and mix from there. I've found that bass frequencies are hard to hear on stage in an acoustic situation unless there's a separate monitor amp of some sort. This gives the bass player 'stage volume' control and will help fill out the sound in front of the stage area. And being outside is at best a minor monitorial nightmare. You're going to need all the help you can get. Have a good gig!

Subject: RE: Tech: Acoustic gtr amplified via PA? How best?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 Aug 06 - 03:16 AM

As I recollect, Jeff, (I may be wrong) on the previous thread about buying this PA, the bass amp had its own DI out so rendering a separate DI box unnecesary. You are of course right that that leaves the bass amp pretty much as a dedicated stage monitor. To "hear" the bass rather than feel it, add high-mid and even some top. If the bass is "robbing" the other instruments in the mix, you may have to turn up the stage amp and down the bass guitar in the PA.

By and large do NOT put bass or kick drum (where present) in the monitor mix. All you get is blown monitor speakers.

Subject: RE: Tech: Acoustic gtr amplified via PA? How best?
From: s&r
Date: 08 Aug 06 - 03:39 AM

If your fishman is one of the stick-on sort, the position of the pickup can make a huge difference to the quality, tone and level of the output.

Going through the PA the sound is all pickup. When you're at home finding the best pickup position with a guitar amp turned pretty low, you hear a blend of the guitar sound and the pickup/amp sound. I got best results by placing the pickup using headphones out of the amp.

Stu

Subject: RE: Tech: Acoustic gtr amplified via PA? How best?
From: Nick
Date: 08 Aug 06 - 07:56 AM

Thanks again for the help.

The monitoring bit worked when I turned up the volume on the channel from 0..! D'oh! I did end up popping it through a guitar amp for the evening and it was fine - we weren't playing very loud and neither the controls on the PA amp monitor output nor on the guitar amp needed to high at all to allow us to hear. I will need to experiment in the future for what we will do.

I'll try experimenting with the position of the pick up as it is one I screw across the hole. Thanks for the tip.

I've put a very short and small (250kb) mp3 here which demonstrates what a horribly crappy noise has come out on tape. I think it sounded better than that through the speakers but it does sound grim to me! I'd be interested to know if that is the sort of sound I should expect.

Apart from getting my foot tangled in a cable and pulling over and bouncing my guitar off the floor (I have a nice recording of that), forgetting to plug in a mic in the second half, taping over the first part of what I had recorded by turning over the tape rather than putting a new one in, not turning everything up loud enough in the first half... there were remarkably few problems given that I didn't really know what I was doing!

Subject: RE: Tech: Acoustic gtr amplified via PA? How best?
From: s&r
Date: 08 Aug 06 - 09:05 AM

If it's the one that fits across the sound hole it will be magnetic. Fishman claim that it's balanced for use with bronze and phosphor bronze strings. Steel wound strings could then give an uneven output.

Stu

Subject: RE: Tech: Acoustic gtr amplified via PA? How best?
From: s&r
Date: 08 Aug 06 - 09:11 AM

On my computer the guitar sound is great, but the two words of the lyric are muddy - nothing crisp in the (short) vocal. Not long enough to comment further. Nice playing by the way!

Stu

Subject: RE: Tech: Acoustic gtr amplified via PA? How best?
From: Nick
Date: 08 Aug 06 - 09:36 AM

I just really hate that particular sound since it has none of the qualities of an acoustic guitar to my ears but perhaps that is what I should expect!

The vocal will be distorting like the clappers probably - I just made a quick set of wav files via Audacity off the tape to pass it to one of the people I was playing with so he could hear what we had done. The levels probably need fiddling with - but nothing is very high tech. The tape deck has an automatic limiter on it so there is very little control and I have not really had time to experiment with levels out of the amp etc etc The main aim was to get a record of the event so that we can see all the things we need to work on and what went well etc What I have is ok for seeing if we were playing in time and tune etc

The vocals are distorting and I'm not sure whether it is too high out of the amp, the recorder or the Audacity settings - I will experiment. There's a verse of Drunk on Moon by Tom Waits here (about 650kb) in case you have a thought. I'm more wary of putting vocals up than a bit of guitar playing - weird isn't it (somehow much more personal perhaps)?

Subject: RE: Tech: Acoustic gtr amplified via PA? How best?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 Aug 06 - 09:59 AM

Addressing the first recording: -

Assuming the MP3 accurately reproduces the analogue sound then I think the guitar may have been a bit close to the clipping point on the mixer. The more I turn it up the more I can hear a roughness in the high-mid that probably was NOT audible over the speakers because the speakers will have been smoothing it off.

Next time take extra long guitar leads and take it in turns to go out in front of the speakers (or even both go at once) to see what the speaker sound is like.

It does however sound very like what I expect a magnetic slot-in pickup to sound like.

Subject: RE: Tech: Acoustic gtr amplified via PA? How best?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 Aug 06 - 10:02 AM

Vocals sound fine. I hate recordings of my voice, I'm sure I don't sound like them!

What mics are you using?

Subject: RE: Tech: Acoustic gtr amplified via PA? How best?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Aug 06 - 10:26 AM

Its a tricky question.

I can think of groups who insist on using monitors, and some peopele think they are deceptive - of whats going on out front.

Basically all these small systems - and probably all systems - have an optimum level they can function at. The big problem of course is that when the noise level of the venue goes up - people start looking for their cues,, and they can't hear them so well. so they start mucking about with the basic sound that you've worked so hard to put together. They start turning things up and speakers round, and the audience who are actually listening can start getting their ears battered.

If you're really worried, its as well to use the unbalanced line inputs for the mics - they will give you more headroom. if you get a harsh sound when you take a volume up - the first villain in the piece can be the hi frequency parametric control. don't get married to any reverb setting - every space, and every audience probably dictates some adjustment.

all the very best of luck with your gig. the monitor output is puzzling - play a cd (with the fader down and then up) and try a jack out to your bass amp - see if anything comes out.

Subject: RE: Tech: Acoustic gtr amplified via PA? How best?
From: Big Mick
Date: 08 Aug 06 - 11:02 AM

Fair point about the difference between the monitors and the front of house speakers. We solved that by getting a sound guy we trusted, and who knows our music. We made him a full member of the band, and cut him in for a full share. Our instructions to him are that once the monitors are mixed, leave them alone, unless we instruct him otherwise. The front of the house is left to his discretion. In other words, we are in charge of the monitor mix, he is in charge of the house mix. Obviously we have great trust in his ear and judgement. He is invaluable, and it is nice to have someone to set up and breakdown with us. And our fan base loves our sound, so he obviously is doing it right. Feedback has virtually become a thing of the past.

Mick

Subject: RE: Tech: Acoustic gtr amplified via PA? How best?
From: Nick
Date: 08 Aug 06 - 12:01 PM

>>Assuming the MP3 accurately reproduces the analogue sound then I think the guitar may have been a bit close to the clipping point on the mixer.

There is a picture of what I have here which links through to a nice magnifiable image of the front of my amp which might help.

The clipping point - I presume that is where the level goes into distortion? I use some recording software and the clipping point I presume is where my indicator nips into the red? (Is it over 0db?)

If so I think it probably is elsewhere as the settings on the amp were very low because the volume didn't need to very high. I may of course have put the wrong settings in! My guitar with no pre-amp went straight into one of the Super Hi-Z inputs and the level setting was at maximum between 5 and 6. The MAIN level setting was on about number 2. There are some lights above the MAIN level button and probably twice in the evening the bottom Green pair flashed on.

It's possible of course that I have set things wrong - I read somewhere that I should have my main volume somewhere between 5 and 7 but I'm not sure I could then have set the levels on the separate channels low enough - the pre-amped guitar was set to under 1, the bass was under 1, the electric guitar was about 1 and it was only the mics and my guitar that were higher (mics probably on 4 - 6).

>>Next time take extra long guitar leads and take it in turns to go out in front of the speakers (or even both go at once) to see what the speaker sound is like.

We did try that with four sets of ears before... Next time we'll get there earlier! Why do people arrive early to things? (ie before we're ready? :)!)

>>It does however sound very like what I expect a magnetic slot-in pickup to sound like.

Depressingly that's what I thought! It's a sound that I don't particularly like but realise I have limited options - it's just a question of making the best of (what I see as) a bad job. Is there a better way?

>>Vocals sound fine. I hate recordings of my voice, I'm sure I don't sound like them!

Me doesn't sound anything like me.

>>What mics are you using?

Uni-directional dynamic mics of some obscure brand (Altai or something from memory). Welcome to the world of budget sound! they were given to me as a present by someone when a certain pub chain decided they no longer would have live music...

Subject: RE: Tech: Acoustic gtr amplified via PA? How best?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 Aug 06 - 04:52 PM

Except for Mackie, which are different, you set up a modern mixer with a clip light above the gain control (ie at the top of the row of knobs for the channel) by turning up the gain control (with the person singing or playing as loud as ever they are going to do) until the clip light just comes on. On most mixers in theory you now have 3db before actual clipping, but everyone goes louder in the heat of the gig so turn it down just a bit again. I can't see the channel clip lights on the picture of your amp but I'm sure there must be some there. Don't the instructions say anything? If there isn't one turn up until you hear some distortion (you may need to use headphones for this) and then turn it down until it sounds a readily discernible amount quieter - that's about 3 Db. Now turn it down the same amount again. You now have 6 Db of headroom before input clipping.

Clipping point can only be found with a meter if the meter is a peak meter, and most are power meters. On a typical meter you set the maximum expected level to 0Db


Now turn up the main output until you think it's going to be about loud enough. You may want to guage this by using some pre-recorded music (that you know well) on the tape in, and you may also want to use that to set the shape of the 10-channel (on the Phonics) graphic until it sounds best to your ears. If you have a tape of yourselves that you like it is good for this, but if you haven't then someone who sounds a bit like you is good too, but the most important thing is that you know what the tape is supposed to sound like eg on a good hifi.

Now turn up the fader (the last knob on the channel) until that channel is about loud enough. Now turn it down a bit because when you get the rest on the whole thing will sound louder. You will probably want to juggle the fader and the main output controls to get the point onthe fader you are actually going to be using at about 5 or 6 out of 10. Now adjust the tone controls (and the FX) on the channel by trial and error until the sound sounds best (you may want to come back and do this again when all the other channels are done because the "best" sound as a solo sound is not necessarily the "best" sound in a mix, and when you do this you are going to need to turn all the other channels down a bit to make the one you want to judge stand out a little. Good mixers have a solo button to make that easier.

You have now done one channel. Do the rest.

The lights you were watching, if I identify them correctly, flash green when the amp realises you are giving it some signal, and red when ther is too much. If you got them green only a couple of times, you can turn the main up lots yet!

How does the sound of the other acoustic guitar compare to yours? Can you borrow guitars that you know "plug" well to compare to yours?
Taylor and Takamine represent the typical "I like that" sound that sound men usually go for.   A Fishman undersaddle and preamp for about £130 plus fitting will sound as like that as your guitar (what is your guitar, by the way) will permit. If you want to sound more like an acoustic guitar (and are happy to be quiet enough to avoid feedback) spend about £10 on a "lapel mic" and stick it on your soundboard with blu-tak just peeping over the edge of the soundhole. You can't work like that, it will fall off, but see whether you like that sort of sound. If you want to hear more "wood" try the Ashworth stick-ons at about £30. It does feed back easily though. If you like a "ring" the I-Beam is expensive and feeds back way too easily, but some people really like the sound. I like B-band and you can often pick them up second hand quite cheap on ebay because the name is not so well known. The really really expensive systems tend to have blendable sound sources - an undersaddle and either a stick-on or a mic inside the guitar. LR Baggs do a thing that has an I-beam and an undersaddle blended, but it is about £200 I think just to buy before you start thinking about the fitting costs.

Subject: RE: Tech: Acoustic gtr amplified via PA? How best?
From: s&r
Date: 08 Aug 06 - 07:02 PM

This amp is unusual - there is no trim pot and no individual channel clip lights that I can see or that are mentioned in the manual. The instructions in the manual (not well explained) seem to be to connect up each channel in turn, and turn the (rotary) fader up until the level out of the amp seems OK. Repeat for each channel.

The monitor send refers to a separate Jack out at line level, not to the monitor output section of the amp, which is just one half of the stereo output.

Stu

Subject: RE: Tech: Acoustic gtr amplified via PA? How best?
From: GUEST,Jeff
Date: 08 Aug 06 - 10:53 PM

Hey Nick,

Richard, I wasn't aware of a previous thread about the bass amp having it's own di...I'd forgotten all about that. With a di ahead of the amp you're getting the sound of the bass itself w/no eq other than the tone/volume pots. I used to have a bass amp w/a built in low-z out. After a couple of gigs ended up getting a Whirlwind di as it seemd the 'preamp sound' was more difficult to mix.

Here's my basic bass rig:
76 Gibson Grabber w/reverse p-bass pickup configuration(the E-A string pickup is towards the bridge, giving a little more 'punch' to the low end) It's not stock. Came w/a sliding p.u.
Peavey B112 50w bass amp w/4 eq pots, pre and master volumes.
Whirlwind EDB1 direct box.
Boss GEB-7 bass eq.
Boss inline bass tuner...can't think of the model #.(I use the Boss transformers for the eq and tuner as I've found batteries to be unreliable...though I keep a couple just in case)

When setting up I run the bass onboard tone/volume pots both wide open. Tone all the way towards treble. Bass to the tuner. Tuner to the direct box. Direct box to the eq, eq to the amp. All 1/4" patch cords. I set the master volume on the amp wide open/back an eighth of a turn. The pre-amp is on 2 or 3. I control the overall volume with the eq. The amp eqs are straight up. I run a 25' mic cable from the direct box to the pa channel. I use the tuner as a 'kill switch' during breaks.

This is the rig I've been using for about 15 years in a variety of acoustic or electic settings including, bluegrass, honky-tonk, swing, Irish/Celtic(my personal favorite) and backing singer-songwriters.

Nick, I hope any or all of this is helpful to your situation, but Richard is right on w/the technical info re the pa system...it would be to your advantage to print out this thread and keep it in a 3-ring binder. I know I'm going to. Hope your gig goes well.   Jeff

Subject: RE: Tech: Acoustic gtr amplified via PA? How best?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Aug 06 - 02:40 AM

another possible source of trouble is the enormous dynamic range of a guitar, and the difference between strumming it and picking it. This is where what you hear onstage, and what your audience hears can be very different indeed. You may turn the pot on your guitar down just to avoid a harsh sound, and become inaudible to the audience. However if you hear a harsh sound - you can bet your life some other poor sod is hearing it as well, and they've just bought a drink so they can't even walk out to avoid you, without getting it pinched. another potential fan lost!

like I say, avoid extreme settings on those eq knobs.

One guy I know(Tony from No Fixed Abode) went through a stage of using a compressor on his acoustic guitar to get a more even sound. He gave me the compressor to try - so I guess he found some other way - but he thought it would help my sound avoid its nastier peaks. As I'm not gigging at the present because of health problems, I can't really be sure.

The Baggs system that Richard is talking about is fitted to some very moderately priced Yamaha models - I am a big fan of Yamaha. In fact the new CPX900 (I've seen it for less than £500)has a three way sound source, which someone told me they have nicked in essence from the very expensive taylor models. I wouldn't know if that last is true.

I see looking at my diary, I had a booking for this next weekend - a real one with a noisy pub audience to subdue and impress, and a fee. However like I say cos of health problems I had to blow it out.

So whatever happens - if your whistle player punches the landlord, theres a fight over the money, the customers complain about your filthy lyrics, the neighbours complain about the noise, the car breaks down on the way there and the way back, and the bass player runs off with your wife - remember, these are the good times!

all the best

al

Subject: RE: Tech: Acoustic gtr amplified via PA? How best?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Aug 06 - 04:27 AM

S+R. I agree with what you say about the bass DI. I don't know about Nick's bass rig but but most onboard bass amp DI outs have a pre/post switch and I always set it to "pre", sometimes while the bass player is not looking. Then I get him to play the amp on stage and he fiddles with his settings until he has "his" stage sound, and then I try to get it through the PA. That way if I need to alter it to get it right in the mix I can.

If it becomes certain that the Phonics has no gain and no clip light then bearing in mind that WLD is right and you can get big peaks out of a guitar, particularly if you are a chord player but also if you are one of the pickers who plucks the string away from the guitar and then lets it snap back towards the body test (perhaps to a lesser extent if you pluck sideways rather than using the classical technique of pushing the string down and then letting it spring up) level, then I suggest sitting down somewhere nice and quiet with the PA and both the acoustic guitars. Start with the one that has got a preamp and therefore (I imagine) a volume control on the guitar. Set the channel fader on that channel about where you had it for that guitar. Now turn the guitar up until you hear it start to distort. Just as s test, operate the "pad" switch. This will quieten the guitar by 20 Db. You will need to turn up the main out fader to hear the guitar properly now. The distortion will go away - or it should. If it does then you are probably going to need to turn the guitar down on the guitar if you want to take the pad switch off again. Alternatively you could turn the guitar up on the guitar and leave the pad switch switched, if there is enough "welly" in the onboard guitar preamp.

If you have a guitar preamp, always make sure it has a new battery in. At one beer/folk festival a couple of years back near me the soundman was going berserk trying to get a decent sound out of one particular blonde's guitar (a Seagull). It was so bad I went away and came back with an old valve PA head (huge input impedance) to run that guitar through, but still no improvement.   Eventually the battery in her preamp flattened so much there was no sound. The soundman said "have you got a new battery for your preamp?" and she said "what preamp?". Obviously the battery had been in the guitar from new!

Anyway, by this route you should be able to sort that guitar. It might be worth trying a compressor (or a separate guitar preamp turned down) if you can borrow them to try.

Now back to your guitar. Is it louder than the one with the preamp? If so try the pad switch (or a separate guitar preamp turned down - or even an electric guitarist's volume pedal). If you have, as we expect, a magnetick pickup, try it out in a shop with an acoustic emulator (designed to enable electric guitars to sound like an acoustic). Or try the Fishman Rare Earth slot-in pickup (expensive) if you want to stay with a slot-in. I hate them but some people love them.

If your guitar is quieter than the one with a preamp, it isn't front end overload distortion, so only two options are left: it's your guitar/pickup/picking sound as such, or the pickup in your guitar needs a wholly exceptionally high impedance at the amp. This is unlikely if your pickup is a magnetic. But if it is the case, then you will need a proper preamp for it or change the pickup.

Try your guitar through an "acoustic amp" if you can borrow one. Many people like the Trace Elliot but it is expensive and frankly I think it is a bit scratchy. The Marshall acoustic amp is a lot cheaper and has been very well reviewed. If you know an old man with an old valve PA head and a speaker, try that. If those "sweeten" the sound of your guitar then you could acquire such an amp, and either DI it (there may be a slave out on the old valve PA head) or mic it, but it will almost certainly be cheaper to change the pickup in your guitar or change the whole guitar!.

If you can get a Yamaha with all the gubbins in for the price mentioned above, it maybe worth trying at least as a comparator to see what difference it makes. Or borrow a Takamine to try. Plugged they do not sound like an acoustic to my ears, but they are very popular as pluggable acoustics. You can probably get a Taylor off ebay for about for not much over £500 - but again they don't sound hugely like guitars to my ears, plugged or unplugged, although the lad who bought the last one I sound (for a mate - it was a 512CE) loved the plugged sound and bought it expressly to play in pubs for money.

But try the amp setup and the other guitar first. I reckon the problem is likely to be your pickup.

Subject: RE: Tech: Acoustic gtr amplified via PA? How best?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Aug 06 - 04:41 AM

I used to have a marshall, but when I heard Amy wadge - I knew I had to have an AER. paul downes also plays one of these - if you get a chance to see him, do so. In fact paul gets some very nice natuaral sounding guitar type sounds and he's used to travelling round plugging into whatever PA is available.

you could try his website and e-mail him and ask him if has a secret, or what his set up is. I know he told me the secret is his pick up - which I'd never heard of. As I said I'm a Yamaha fan, and

Don't be afraid to ask people. they are nearly always really helpful, as it is a hugely difficult job - getting a really good guitar sound, and it is something we all struggle with.

Subject: RE: Tech: Acoustic gtr amplified via PA? How best?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Aug 06 - 05:13 AM

Loads of threads about pickups, but the best way to chekc them out is to try them out - go on a borrowingfest!

Subject: RE: Tech: Acoustic gtr amplified via PA? How best?
From: Nick
Date: 09 Aug 06 - 06:18 AM

My guitar is a Tanglewood and the pickup is a Fishman Neo-D I think - it cost £40-£50 if I remember when I bought the guitar so I think it is probably that.

Stacks of information and lots to try out.

Alistair who I play with went out earlier this year with the express intention of buying a Takemine guitar but ended up buying a Tanglewood on the basis of it's feel and the electrics in it and the power of the amplified sound. The difference in sound between his guitar and mine (I can boost mine if I want through a little pre-amp I have to get the equivalent power) is not dramatic but they still have that 'amplified acoustic guitar sound' so perhaps that IS what guitars sound like if you don't have mega bucks to spend.

I listened to a Ralph McTell live album last night (Travelling Man) and realised that his guitar on that sounds like an amplified acoustic guitar - especially when he turns the flanging effect! I'll learn to get used to it I guess.

I'll do some experimenting and asking around when I see someone with a sound I like.

Subject: RE: Tech: Acoustic gtr amplified via PA? How best?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Aug 06 - 01:15 PM

The Tanglewoods are usually fair.   I'd be tempted to point the finger at your pickup but it Alastair's sounds similar in may undermine that thought. First priority would be to borrow a different guitar that you know sounds to your taste and an "acoustic amp" and check the borrowed guitar through your rig and your guitar through the acoustic amp.

Cunning thought - offer to host a local "open mic" night and you will get to hear hundreds of guitars through your rig!