Padstow Darkie Days

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 25 Feb 05 - 02:12 PM

Agree with you GUEST,milk monitor. And in the same spirit of examination of divergence, Q's suggestion makes sense too.

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Feb 05 - 02:17 PM

then I read they dress to impersonate American blacks and sing songs with "nigger" in them etc.

On that joke site that milk monitor gave us a link to? Don't believe everything you read, especially on the Internet. And don't take as Gospel truth everything comic writers write in books either

We've got the makings of a moral panic on the basis of pretty inadequate information, and some very lazy reporting. Since we haven't had any links to the story itself, here a link to the BBC for a version.

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: GUEST,milk monitor
Date: 25 Feb 05 - 02:21 PM

Mc G please see my post of 11.47am. It isn't a joke site, it is just designed in the same way that the book is published, kind of cartoony. I thought it was a joke site first too.

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: Billy Weeks
Date: 25 Feb 05 - 02:38 PM

No one seems to have challenged Hawker's assertion that Bernie Grant tried to get black bin bags banned, so I'll do it. Where did you hear this story Hawker? Were you there when he said it? Or do you know somebody who knows somebody who knows it to be absolutely true? Or do you believe and pass on every urban myth put about by the Daily Mail or the BNP?

An intelligent man like Bernie Grant would never have done anything so stupid and I would like to give Hawker the credit for being credulous rather than stupid or malicious.

Persuade me, Hawker.

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: Rasener
Date: 25 Feb 05 - 02:45 PM

I have just been down to our local indian restuarant, and read todays newspaper covering this event. It seems that it was to honour the slaves etc etc.

I asked 2 of the waiters who are from India. if the photo's in the newspaper offended them. They said it didn't becuase it was folklore, and they could see the difference between our traditon and people who were offensively rascist.

It is really getting out of hand.

There is a big difference between people who are offensive to foriengners and hurl rascial abuse in comparison to Morris Dancers who keep our folk lore alive. I would not support anything that was offensive wher it was meant.

I think sometimes we need to lighten up.

Incidentally I have been to west indian parties when I lived in Birmingham and was invited by west Indian friends, and only my mate and me were white. They all thought we were the police and there to bust them. When they realised we were friends they were very nice and we had quite a few great parties. Do they know how to party.

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: GUEST,milk monitor
Date: 25 Feb 05 - 02:53 PM

I think sometimes we need to lighten up.........ah thanks villan that line is priceless and unintentionally funny, in the context of this discussion. :)

I also think we sometimes need to examine whether our ignorance can be percieved as racist, albeit unintentionally. Two waiters at an Indian restaurant do not a race make?

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: Bentley
Date: 25 Feb 05 - 03:02 PM

What does that make Al Jolson.He wasn't a rascist was he.? PC gone mad I call it. Did anyone read about the school in Norwich and the kids snowball fight? They had to be 65 feet apart! The world is going bananas!

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Feb 05 - 03:03 PM

I did read your later post, milk monitor - it depends what you mean by "joke site". I'd say it was a joke site, tied in with a joke book, written with the intention of amusing, and not necessarily too reliable. Not even intended to be read as reliable.

And that stuff about the "black bags van" is part of the same kind of spin as the stuff about "don't ask for black coffee", and the "EEC bans bananas that are bent" and so forth.

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: GUEST,milk monitor
Date: 25 Feb 05 - 03:14 PM

Mc G I agree it was certainly written as an amusing book. But I don't see why that means the author's account of what he witnessed at Padstow is to be deemed unreliable.

According to the Guardian review he is quite enamoured with the traditions he saw upheld in other parts of the country. I wouldn't dismiss out of hand his eye witness account of one aspect of one festival, because it paints a picture that isn't palatable.

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: GUEST,Hugh Jampton
Date: 25 Feb 05 - 03:15 PM

For goodness sake, please regard it as television. If you do not appreciate or like what we have been doing in these islands for years then go to your off switch and enjoy something else.

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: Rasener
Date: 25 Feb 05 - 03:40 PM

It strikes me the world is going mad. Whats wrong with you Milk Monitor?

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: Peace
Date: 25 Feb 05 - 03:46 PM

Yo, Villan.

MM is asking the same questions I am.

What's wrong with me? I am an irritating SOB who wants to know more about this stuff. Hope you're keeping well.

Bruce M

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 25 Feb 05 - 05:51 PM

I sense tensions rising, so can I just ask that we keep our cool. The discussion has been very good until now, let's keep it going the same way.

Les, I have no problem with MM's/Brucie's questions; we have to accept that to them, without the British cultural background, it appears more damning than you or I might see it.

And in any case - the court is out as to whether there have been unsavoury departures from the original custom. No doubt the tapes will show any singing of racist songs (or not as the case might be).

What I find amazing is that despite my having asked the question three times so far, nobody has responded to it yet; so I'll ask it again - where do we draw the line? I refer you to my post of 1:29 PM.

I am not being rhetorical or sarcastic. But...(yet another example)
-will we one day have to stop using the expression "yellow press" for fear of appearing racist?

Where does it stop? At what point do we say to those offended "you are being oversensitive, it has not been the intention to offend you, the backround to XXXXX practice has historical, non-racist reasons"?

Otherwise, I might want the French to change their language - because "Grec" has been a synonym of "thief" from way back. Not meant this way today of course. Should I be offended? Am I undersensitive?

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: Dave Wynn
Date: 25 Feb 05 - 06:06 PM

I have a part every year in a Lancashire Pace Egg play. It's like a mumming play but specifically done at Easter. We black our faces. It has been done in and around Lancashire for many hundreds of years and seems to have connections to the crusades. It's a play about St George and includes characters like the Black prince of Paradyne (Born of high renown) and Hector (the knight) and Bold Slasher , the doctor , old Bold Ben etc etc.

It is simply an easter revival play and absolutely no reference is made to race or skin colour (The Black Prince of Paradyne refers to him being black of character not skin colour) although there is a character called the King of Egypt no reference is made to his race apart from the calling on line of "I am the King of Egypt" , in fact no real mention is made of Easter apart from a recurring line "before I am three days old". The only possible offensive line could be the King of Egypt saying "Oh cursed Christian , what is this thou hast done" For you to ask us to remove the face paint (or make it blue or green) would stop an old tradition in it's tracks. Yes we have done it at Machester and Lancaster universities as part of a street theatre workshop , if you know the geography of Manchester then you know the university is minutes walk from Moss Side a predominately Afro-Carribean cultural area.

To be accused of being racist for pursuing a centuries old local tradition is extremely offensive to me.

Spot the Dog

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: GUEST,steven
Date: 25 Feb 05 - 06:11 PM

Padstow darkie days and the big Oss, are nothing to do with racism, people should grow up and stop being so precious about twaddle.
Racism is hating somebody for something they cant change i.e their colour
The Padstow DD is a lot of fun, if you dont like it dont turn up.
Racism is rife in DARFUR RWANDA ZIMBABWE AND THE OLD EASTERN BLOC STATES
bugger off there and spout tosh at them see how far you get.
Idiots and the narrow minded have fouled up Britain for too long , if you want to do something about racism go to any of the venues mentioned in capitals and have a meaningful discussion with those bastards
Hands off Cornwall and the bits of Britain that aren't ruined

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: Hawker
Date: 25 Feb 05 - 06:45 PM

Billy Weeks,
I only repeat what I heard on the radio. granted it was a few years ago and I found it so incredulously stupid I remembered who said it and what he reportedly said. I stand corrected if he did not say it. For the record, I am NOT racist in any way, I was born in Nigeria and was brought into this world as a white person in a black mans world. I have every respect for every man whatever colour or creed, but an intolerance of crass stupidity. I hold my hand up as crassly stupid if the story was untrue, but ask, it this perhaps, an example that maybe we should not believe all that is reported in the paper, on the radio or on the internet............. I am also a traditionalist and am sure there are many traditions in other countries which may be construed as offensive to me and my beliefs, but I would not want to stop them from carrying them out, what I would want to do is learn about them and their origins, after all we white people have been responsible through history for some pretty nasty things. I think tolerance is what is required, Man has become so intolerant of fellow man - lets all just try to understand each other.
Lucy

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: Hawker
Date: 25 Feb 05 - 06:53 PM

A thought has just occurred to me. At Sidmouth Festival a couple of years ago, i was in the middle bar and an (forgive me, what do I say without causing offense!!!) afro carribean morris man walked in - my GOD he had a fine voice too, what does he feel about blacking up - I think he was in a cotswold side, so his team didn't but I am sure it wouldn't be offensive to him - does he visit this site? are you there oh fine singer of a Morris man? can we have your opinion if you are?
Lucy

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Feb 05 - 06:58 PM

Stop showing your stupidity Lucy.

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: Cllr
Date: 25 Feb 05 - 07:05 PM

Hawker thats idris, who was at the reunion last weekend and was at wareham last september and will be at miskin in a few weeks. cllr

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: Snuffy
Date: 25 Feb 05 - 07:13 PM

I think that was probably Idris Roker, Lucy. He's a Middle Bar regular with a fine repertoire of traditional English songs, and dances with Bathampton MM. He won the Doom Gloom and Despondency song competition last year (see here).

I don't think he's a Mudcat regular but you could contact him via Morticia, and just maybe he might be at Miskin

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: Cllr
Date: 25 Feb 05 - 07:16 PM

Bernie Grant's call to ban the Padstow event was well publicised don't argue about - it check it on google.

Bernie Grant was also a critic of the police It didn't stop him pairing with the police federation representative to the house of commons Sir Michael Shersby MP. When I asked why he paired with such an outspoken critic of the police Michael said " well seeing as we both have to be there at the same time on the same issues it makes sense to pair" I think they got on despite being from different ends of the political spectrum and I learnt the lesson that just because you disagree with someone doesnt mean you can't respect them. Cllr

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: Azizi
Date: 25 Feb 05 - 07:59 PM

I'm been away from a computer for most of the day, and have just read posts since earlier this morning.

And I feel a need to comment again about this subject..

I would like to first say that I knew nothing of the European custom of blackening before joining Mudcat 6 months ago. All of know about these customs I have learned from reading these posts, and reading links that have been given on this and other Mudcat threads, and reading one book on South African music that included a chapter on 19th century minstrelsy in Britain.

I acknowledge my lack of direct information, and like Brucie wrote upthread, I am trying to learn more about these customs.

I would, for instance, I would like to know the titles of other books and articles that discuss the past & present relationships between blackening up and the American minstrel traditions For surely such connections existed and appear to still exist, perhaps as new departures from old ways, and perhaps not..

I would also like to know if any studies have been done to assess the opinions of British people of color regarding blackening up. Futhermore, have any scholarly studies been done to assess the impact, if any, of blackening up on the self -esteem and group esteem of Black Britons and other British people of color? It just seems to me that this subject is too important to be relegated to anecdotal stories about whether a person's Black or Indian friends or acquaintances feel offended or do not feel offended by blackening up customs.

Also, it seems to me that people should be interested in whether there were any short term or long term consequences to Whites as a result of their participation in or general knowledge of these customs {for instance, are their differences between the racial attitudes and levels of multi-cultural acceptance of those who participate or do not participate in these customs?}

That being said, I acknowledge that I am very prone to be sceptical of assertions that 'darkie' refers to the dark days, or the only reason why black paint was used was as a disguise so that a worker's boss would not recognize him.. These seem to me to be more like contemporary, politically correct reasons for ancient customs whose original purposes may not ever be totally known-or whose members want to defray accusations [warranted or unwarranted of their insensitivity...

Note that I said "insensitivity" and not "racism"...

This is another time where it would be helpful if Mudcat had posters who are Black Britons and other people of color from Europe and from elsewhere. That being said, I believe this is a HUMAN issue irregarless of one's race.. The central question to me of blackening is what is most important: ancient traditions or treating people with dignity and respect. My concern is that people [individuals and specific groups of people]be treated with dignity and respect.
If, in my opinion, a tradition does not do that, then, as far as I'm concerned, to hell with the tradition.

And this too I believe-given the history of the United States, if private groups were to publicly perform such blackening disguises here, then lawsuits would be filed to halt that practice. And I would be glad about that [and might even initiate or join in such a law suit].

El Greko asked where do we draw the line..and I don't know the answer to that question. All I know is that blackening up is offensive to me whether it is done by [perhaps] well meaning White people or [perhaps] well meaning African Americans who are members of the New Orleans Mardi Gras Zulu kewe.

I accept the fact that some people here at Mudcat and elsewhere may feel that it is offensive of me to have this viewpoint.

I am willing to agree that we will not agree on this issue.

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: Compton
Date: 25 Feb 05 - 08:28 PM

Rather curiously, I heard on the radio (Four) tonight about 10.30pm, the Shrewsbury Police Choir singing "I wish I was in de land of cotton, etc"..Do you think someone should have filmed it and sent it to the D.P.P for vocally insulting race?
I think we should continue to be afraid, very afraid!

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: Peace
Date: 26 Feb 05 - 12:06 AM

"Racism is rife in DARFUR RWANDA ZIMBABWE AND THE OLD EASTERN BLOC STATES bugger off there and spout tosh at them see how far you get.
Idiots and the narrow minded have fouled up Britain for too long , if you want to do something about racism go to any of the venues mentioned in capitals and have a meaningful discussion with those bastards"

OK. Now, back to the thread.

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: Rasener
Date: 26 Feb 05 - 02:04 AM

Blimey my dad would have been in trouble today.

We had a cat called Blacky

He loved the Black and White minstrals

We used to eat jam where the glass had a picture of a gollywog on

Was he rascist?

Definately not. We didn't think of it that way, and we still don't.

My daughter has a black doll. Does that make her rascist. I think not.

I have played a lot of cricket in my days and played with all natiianalities. We have all taken the pi** out of each other but never got offended.

In fact it reminds me of the time when one of my cricket friends called Neville (who was black) and a smashing bloke, had a dance with a woman, and the next minute the husband of the woman started to attack him. It took about five of us whities to hold this bloke down so that he didn't hurt our mate. If we had been rascist we would have helped the Husband.

I work with people who have mental illnesses and one day this bloke who had done a job wrong, suddenly said "blimey I am going bonkers" we all laughed because it was so funny to hear him say that.
I wonder what would have happened if I had said it. I dread to think, with the wrong person listening.

It concerns me greatly when people pull you up for a saying something that is totally misconstrued by them.

The way we are going, even Max Bygraves Pink Toothbrush will be outlawed for being rascist.

Keep the traditions going I say.
Incidentally George good post of yours at 1:29pm

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 26 Feb 05 - 02:33 AM

I don't know if there are any studies on the effect of the self-esteem of black Britons of black-face customs but I would wager that that not enough people have encountered or heard of it to be a problem. On the Morris dance discussion list in the past few years there has been interest in the effect of C19 black-face minstrelsy on British customs and, irregardless of whether or not blacking up was done prior to this, it certainly did have it's effect - witness tunes such as 'Oh Susannah' and 'Camptown Races' being used for morris dances and the number of 'Old Joe' or 'Not for Joe' tunes in use.

I was disappointed to see the pictures. To me, they are portrayals of happy-go-lucky plantation workers and not just blacked up faces as part of a disguise to ward off evil spirits or to avoid being recognised by the authorities.

I'm sure, however, that the people of Padstow will modify their costumes over the years and retain the celebrations as they have done for the May celebrations.

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: Peace
Date: 26 Feb 05 - 02:37 AM

So, GUEST,steven: what does the word DARKIE mean to you?

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: GUEST,John F
Date: 26 Feb 05 - 04:54 AM

Villan what did you think of Bruce M's post of 3.46?
And what does the word DARKIE mean to you?

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 26 Feb 05 - 05:04 AM

Hi Azizi,

Having a viewpoint cannot be offensive - it is your right. And I don't find your particular viewpoint offensive either - it is understandable, and I think we mostly agree anyway. Like you, I'm prepared to end up agreeing to disagree on the remaining few points, if necessary. But though "good enough" is good enough, there's nothing wrong with trying for "better", eh?

I wouldn't have posted so much on this thread if I did not feel strongly myself about retaining tradition (and it's not even "my" tradition we're talking about:-)), something the Brits do admirably well indeed, and I wish the Greeks had done the same. But what we are talking about goes beyond the Padstow custom, beyond keeping tradition even. This is a very important issue indeed, and it will come up again and again in other conversations.

You raise a very good question about any studies in Britain vis a vis blackening up and its impacts on Britsh people of colour. Unless we hear from someone in the coming days on this, I wouldn't mind taking it on to search for such studies (if they exist), and I have a couple of leads I could follow (there is a West Indian Justice of the Peace that will be accompanying me on steel drum in my next recording session in late summer for example), but it would take me some time (I only just made contact with him over email, we haven't met yet physically, so I don't want to barge in with such questions yet!). If I come up with anything, I will post it here.

Perhaps we need to increase our understanding (both sides of the argument), and education can help a lot there. That should ease the tension, as it helps explain to the "offended" in which cases offence is not meant by a custom and is unrelated, and so it will reduce over-sensitivity. While at the same time explaining to the "offender" how their well-meaning actions might offend. And then take a stronger line against bigotry - because it is the comparatively few bigots (and their abuse of customs, and freedoms) that drive the creation of prohibitive laws, in an ever-running cat-and-mouse attempt to pen them in.

But - and I am 100% convinced of that - we should not apply one society's rules to judge another; not without the education I mentioned above, which goes beyond learning the history of a people or speaking their language, and into the realm of understanding their thinking. Unfortunately, even in today's "enlightened" world of the Internet and easy international travel and holidays, we still commit serious "faux pas" where cultures cross.

I enjoyed our conversation very much. Perhaps we can slowly reduce our "difference of opinion" further - I 'd like to think that we can. And I'd like one day to call you by what you call yourself (the double word), and mean it as an honourary title, without needing to worry (as I do) about offending you...

White bro' George

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: Billy Weeks
Date: 26 Feb 05 - 06:27 AM

Glad to hear from you again Harker and I fully accept that your comment had no intentional racist overtone. What I was warning - and continue to warn about is a widespread readiness to to be taken in by 'news' items put about by racist bigots and our covertly racist press. Asylum seekers get preferential treatment at our hospitals, don't they? And they get given cars, too - 'everybody' knows that. And Bernie Grant(or Ken Livingstone or the CRE)? Everybody knows the dreadful things they have done or said. We read about it everywhere so it must be true.

Trouble is that this stuff is easy to make up and bigots do just that. And any crap newspaper is hungry to give currency to a vicious story if they think they can get their readers to swallow it. Imho this is a more dangerous and despicable thing than any blacking up in Padstow.

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: Pied Piper
Date: 26 Feb 05 - 06:35 AM

Azizi points out that it would be impossible for white skinned people to "black up" in the US without it being considered racist and action taken. I'm shore this is true but take of the black paint and you can join the perfectly legal NAZI party, which is banned here in Europe.
I think we're talking planks and splinters here.

PP

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: sapper82
Date: 26 Feb 05 - 06:37 AM

And people wonder why the BNP are gaining so much ground in politics today.
The problems with atni-rascism in the UK is that it is too often seen to be anti-white, and anti-English.

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: Cats
Date: 26 Feb 05 - 07:17 AM

I thought you all might like to see a photo of this years Darkie Days as published in today's Western Morning News but on the website there is no photo, just one in the paper itself. The photo shows the Merrymakers wearing Cornwall rugby Shirts, tophats and bowler hats with tinsel around them, morning tail coats and jeans processing through the town. The Blacking on faces is exactly the same as you would have on any other mummers, black faced morris or molly side. Not a minstrel in sight! There are also comments from the Cornwall County Council, the Commission for Racial Equality and Council for Racial Equality in Cornwall who all categorically say they have made no complaint. The police sent ten police officers, three police vans and three more police with video cameras to the event on Boxing day. There were less than 20 Merrymakers! The songs they were singing were traditional Cornish folk songs - does this mean we can't sing Trelawney, Camborne Hill or the White Rose anymore?

It has also been pointed out to me, and I share this with you, that all over the west country there are hundreds of 'Darkie Lanes' or 'Darkie Streets' in villages and towns. It is a traditional name in the west country and has no racist overtones. Would they have to go too?

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: Rasener
Date: 26 Feb 05 - 07:25 AM

John F
Its nice that as a guest you put your name there. :-)

Bearing in mind that I am interested in folklore and trying to keep traditions alive for our children and theirs, I do not consider Darkie to be about Black people as you would maybe consider it.

My understanding of Darky or Darkie in the folklore concept is as follows.

The term Darky or Darkie refers to people who black up their faces in disguise as part of Geese (pronounced geez) or guise dancing and is a tradition still carried out in Padstow.

There has been recent and erroneous linking with the "Black and White minstrels" and some unfounded concerns about racist overtones.

The origins of darkie day in fact go back a long way through generations of people disguising themselves so that they could get up to greater mischief back to a point in time where they may have had some significance in pagan ritual.

Whatever the background it has nothing to do with skin colour or the tradition would not have survived the vehement anti slave trade movement in Cornwall.

I personally feel that people are wrongly trying to attach a rascist theme to this.

Please bear in mind, that I am involved in folk music, not racism.

What I do object to is organisations like BNP attaching themselves to this sort of event, or people without the understanding, putting the wrong slant on things.

I see Morris dancing etc as tradition, not rascism.

As far as Brucie goes, he knows he can pm me if he is not happy with any comments I make and I can likewise.

I am more concerned with people who are taking this event out of context.

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 26 Feb 05 - 07:28 AM

McGrath claims the "true brits" site (to which Milk Monitor gave a link near the top of the thread) is a joke. Or at best "not necessarily too reliable" (good example of qualifying an opinion to the point where it is absolutely meaningless). I read the entry about gurning at Egremont crab fair, which is a tradition I've been familiar with for years, and thought it was spot on. On that basis I am inclined to accept the report about Padstow. I am sure the racial elements were not invented, nor were inserted as a joke.

I still would not be in favour of any prosecution, because as I have said in other threads I support freedom of expression. Accordingly I don't like some aspects of the UK law; I think it is a mistake to prosecute people for what they say, as opposed to what they do, even if they are preaching British National Party filth, and I am outraged by the obscenity law and the intention to widen its scope rather than abolish it.

I'd just make one other point about something El Greko said: "Britain, while far from having an integrated multicultural society, does not have the "rich" history of racial bigotry and persecution that America has."

I suspect that this line of thought underpins a fair amount of UK thinking about attitudes to race in the US, but it is not entirely fair. The US is where many of the slaves traded in earlier centuries ended up, but Britain was at the heart of that trade and played a despicable part in it. Several UK cities owe their (now faded) grandeur to the wealth it created, Bristol probably being the worst example. Almost as bad as the trade itself has been the subsequent hypocrisy and the extent to which a shameful past has been airbrushed out of the histories of Britain and some of its cities.

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: GUEST,milk monitor
Date: 26 Feb 05 - 07:28 AM

For generations Padstow folk have taken the opportunity to "black up" and parade around the town and its pubs singing minstrel songs which, although well-known, have not lost their politically incorrect words which some people have described, along with the tradition itself, as racist. "

A direct quote from The Cornish Guardian. Sorry there's no link to this either. Maybe the confusion lies in Cornish people having differing views on the tradition?

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: Rasener
Date: 26 Feb 05 - 07:39 AM

In my honest opiion this has been blown out of all proportions and the papers are only fuelling it.

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: Cats
Date: 26 Feb 05 - 07:40 AM

Perhaps it's that people weren't there and didn't see or hear what was going on? Perhaps it's because that's what it was like years ago and people haven't bothered to find out if that is what really is happening nowadays. It used to be like that, many years ago, but hasn't been for a very long time. Last year they had black and white faces - they were all painted with St Pirans flag, the Cornish Flag. The picture in WMN was from this years Dd and they had reporters and photographers there, other papers are still using archive pics. Perhaps it's just that puting inflammatory pics and text in sells newspapers?

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: GUEST,milk monitor
Date: 26 Feb 05 - 07:53 AM

The Cornish Guardian quote is ten months old, and as a local event they would cover the festival every year.

The True Brits report was from the festival that took place a year ago.

Maybe this year with the recent press coverage afforded to the event, more attention was paid to the elements that some folk found offensive. Only the film footage taken knows the answer to that one.

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 26 Feb 05 - 07:57 AM

Peter K, you are right about Britain's role in the slave trade, and that role is no loger hushed up. In the last year along, the BBC aired at least two major documentaries on the subject.

But their role was mainly as trader, not user of slaves, and as a result comparatively few slaves were employed in Britain itself, and few ordinary Brits had an opportunity to consider their stance against a person of colour. So (according to a statement I made in an earlier posting about having the object of prejudice available in sufficient numbers), there had been comparatively few racist incidents in Britain itself throughout the 18th-19th century. At the same time in the US there were many more such incidents - simply because there were more people of colour around to "be racist against", and therefore more overt racist crimes were perpetrated in full view of the populace.

Britons found their own racism only in the 20th century, when there was more ample opportunity through immigration.

So my statement about the "rich history" stands, I think.

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 26 Feb 05 - 08:00 AM

Er.. the above statements refer to colour racism of course - because there had been racism in Britain against the French, Spanish, Turks and Arabs from waaayy before that! Simply because those were the races they were most in contact with.

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: Azizi
Date: 26 Feb 05 - 08:43 AM

This will make the 7th time that I have posted to this thread.
And though I told myself that I wouldn't be posting again after my last comment {and after each other post], here I go again...

First off, I have enough words that I don't need people putting words in my mouth..[Meaning that I don't take kindly to people saying that I said something that I didn't say].

In NONE of my posts did I write that I consider the folks who blacken up to be racist. What I did say [and still believe] is that the custom is [though it may not have originally been] insensitive and offensive to me as an African American.

See this excerpt of my 25 Feb 05 - 07:59 PM post:
"That being said, I acknowledge that I am very prone to be sceptical of assertions that 'darkie' refers to the dark days, or the only reason why black paint was used was as a disguise so that a worker's boss would not recognize him.. These seem to me to be more like contemporary, politically correct reasons for ancient customs whose original purposes may not ever be totally known-or whose members want to defray accusations [warranted or unwarranted of their insensitivity...

Note that I said "insensitivity" and not "racism"..."
end of quote.

My ONLY mention of racism was when I took issue with an inference that could be made from a comment that El Greko wrote on 25 Feb 05 - 07:36 AM that racism is likely to occur when some citical number of Black people reside among mostly non-Black peoples.

The comment that El Greko made was:
"While there was contact with Africa from the ancient times, there had never been a sufficient number of Africans living there to give rise to racism - and they would have lived in the main towns only, anyway, so most Greeks would not have come into contact."

On 25 Feb 05 - 08:43 AM I wrote in response to this inference [which may or may not have been El Greko's intention}:

"Instead, I would rather praise the ancient Greeks for not having any color prejudice because they recognized that such feelings were silly or ignorant and/or because they recognized the Humanity and the merits of Africans who they had met or heard of, and/or because of their recognition of the rich heritage that that Greek culture had received from African culture".

end of quote

Note that I still did not use the word "racism".

I started my post to this thread agreeing with Joe Offer's post that "I don't think people would dare go blackface in the U.S. nowadays. Since the 1960's, it's been considered socially unacceptable. It was common in the 1950's and earlier."

My post on 25 Feb 05 - 07:59 PM reiterates this position and expands on it to say that in the United States public displays of blackening would probably be met with law suits.

Pied Piper, you said:

"Azizi points out that it would be impossible for white skinned people to "black up" in the US without it being considered racist and action taken"

Here's what I said:

"And this too I believe-given the history of the United States, if private groups were to publicly perform such blackening disguises here, then lawsuits would be filed to halt that practice. And I would be glad about that [and might even initiate or join in such a law suit]."

end of quote.

Again, I make no mention of racism.

In my posts I have consistently written that I find the practice of blakening up to be offensive to me. I have said that I would like moe information on the custom and in particular would be interested in reading about any studies made of it.

However, given what I have learned from reading this and other threads on blackening up, I have made my position clear that I believe that the contemporary practice of blackening up is counter productive to the goals of showing dignity and respect for all people.

I wrote that this was my position irrespective of whether White people went blackfaced or Black people did-and even gave an example of African Americans going blackfaced [the Mardi Gras Zulu kwewe].
If interested, posters here can google the words Mardi Gras Zulus to read about their history and African American reaction to it.

The crux of my position is so powerfully exemplified by Shirley Jackson's short story entitled "The Lottery" that Brucie provided a link to 25 Feb 05 - 10:13 AM.

I wrote that "If, in my opinion, a tradition does not do that [show dignity and respect for all people", then, as far as I'm concerned, to hell with the tradition."

I say this recognizing that there are many here who have good feelings about the ancient tradition of blackening up. I respect that you treasure this tradition, but that does not change my gut reaction of aversion to this practice which, I openly admit, was born and has been fed by my history and socialization as an African American.

All that being said, I would like to take this opportunity to send a special Shout Out and THANK YOU to Brucie and Milk Monitor.

I would also like to say to George {El Greko}, that if you mean 'sista sista' by your comment

"And I'd like one day to call you by what you call yourself (the double word), and mean it as an honourary title, without needing to worry (as I do) about offending you..."

then I would say this, although I really don't use 'sista sista' as a name, but have occasionally used it on Mudcat as a descriptive title -excluding my use of Sista in the Shane Diary posts as that character was certainly not meant to be taken seriously ;O))

I extend my right hand of fellowship to you George [and any others here and welcome you as a brother [or sister.]

I believe that people can disagree on certain points and still be friends [and part of the Mudcat family-and part of God's family].   

Peace,
Azizi

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 26 Feb 05 - 09:08 AM

Amen adelphi

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Feb 05 - 09:28 AM

Few countries are as racially tolerant as Britain.
Things that would be offensive elsewhere may not be here.
A few years ago a thread discussed the use of the word pickinini, which is neutral here but regarded as massively offensive in US.
An African American should not try to judge our customs. You would have to immerse yourself in our culture first.
I would take notice if a member of a minority community had a problem with it.
It appears they do not.
Keith.

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: Cats
Date: 26 Feb 05 - 09:28 AM

Milk Monitor.. I'd love it if the local press covered local traditions every year, (note it is a tradition and NOT a festival. very few people even know about it here in Cornwall) but they don't. Until all this happened there has been hardly any mention and no pics in the papers for years, since Bernie Grant tried to stop it in 1998 when it was found not to be racist. The local press cover very few traditions with the exception of May Day and Flora which get coverage every year. Did you know about it? Do you know about the other Padstow traditions that are kept up each year? have you seen them in the paper? I haven't.

The Merrymakers took their own footage this year as soon as they realised it was being filmed by the police and channel 4 TV to be on the safe side. We all know what photos do, never lie but just wait until I get it on the computer!!! As an after thought, if it was so inflammatory and big news, why didn't Channel 4 news put it out?

Oh how I love to play devils advocate.

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: GUEST,milk monitor
Date: 26 Feb 05 - 09:48 AM

cats, I never called it 'inflammatory' or 'big news'. In fact I don't think it either.

What I did do was quote two reports that contradict your take on things. Attack is seldom the best form of defence.

You may 'enjoy playing devil's advocate', I hope you find someone to play with. Have a good day now.

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: Cats
Date: 26 Feb 05 - 01:42 PM

Milk Monitor, I wasn't quoting you or saying you had said it was inflammatory, I said if the news was inflammatory channel 4 would have shown it. Please don't think I was getting at you at all. All I am doing is putting up all the things that are being put out in the press down here. Every newspaper seems to be putting up the sensational side of it, which went when the songs and costumes changed, although alot of people still presume it hasn't changed. As I said in the beginning, my concern is for all the other black faced traditions we have in this country, if this goes through.

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: Peace
Date: 26 Feb 05 - 02:08 PM

Britain (England) officially got out of the slave trade in 1807 if memory serves me well.

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: Peace
Date: 26 Feb 05 - 02:17 PM

Sorry. I am confusing that date with something else. It began to end in the 1770s.

BM

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: Rasener
Date: 26 Feb 05 - 02:24 PM

A morris group that I know, have in actual fact resorted to blacking up in a slightly different way. They use black and yellow and it looks very effective. They do different pattens for each person. A bit like face painting.