Put the chords where?

Subject: Put the chords where?
From: Baz
Date: 15 Mar 98 - 06:51 PM

I've posted a couple of songs and tunes lately and only included guitar chords with one I think.
Where is it best to include them? In among the text,
over the text (I don't seem very good at lining them up, they look O.K. before they're posted
or in with the ABC file? Or perhaps not at all, do people prefer to work out their own.
Regards Baz

Subject: RE: Put the chords where?
From:
Date: 15 Mar 98 - 07:29 PM

I think the .crd files that COWPIE uses are good. They just put the chords inline in brackets. There is software to print up files in this format with the chords on top.

There is also software to convert ABC files to sheet music. It has the advantage of also being capable of being played, but it has the disadvantage of being harder to write. They can include the melody as well as the chords.

If you don't mind the extra work, I would like to see ABC files posted. Otherwise I can happily live with .crd files

Murray

Subject: RE: Put the chords where?
From: RS
Date: 17 Mar 98 - 11:19 PM

The book "Rise Up Singing" has a useful chord format in which the chords are written out in a row at the end of the song (or occasionally in the middle e.g. for a bridge). There is an indicator for each beat - or sometimes each half beat - or sometimes every second beat - depending on how rapid the chord changes are. A dash means you repeat the previous chord; a slash marks the end of a line. So for example: A - D A / E --- / means: line one plays A A D A; line two plays E E E E. There are other notations e.g. for repeated bars, or extra chord changes in between, etc. It's really extremely simple to learn & use. The book is easily available, & an excellent general resource, as well.

Subject: RE: Put the chords where?
From: steve t
Date: 18 Mar 98 - 04:22 AM

Well, if you're going to include chords, be sure and send off a copy to the online guitar archive at:

[e-mail]

They love guitar tablature best, but it's mostly chord only files, in many different formats. They do require that you include your email address with your file, but sometimes it's nice to get mailings from people who have found your submission.

Subject: RE: Put the chords where?
From: BAZ
Date: 18 Mar 98 - 07:37 PM

Thanks for the above
R.S. Is 'Rise up' available everywhere?
It doesn't seem to be in any of the U.K.lists?
regards Baz

Subject: RE: Put the chords where?
From: John in Brisbane
Date: 06 Jul 04 - 09:34 AM

As you can see this is an old subject, but I'd like to make a pitch to standardise the chord format used for new submissions to Mudcat.

My suggestion is:

- Include the chord names in the same line as the lyrics text
- Use square [ ] brackets.
- Do not leave any space between the closing square bracket and the following syllable of the lyrics.
- Where a chord applies to the entire word, the chord name in square brackets should appear immediately before the first syllable, not within the syllable.
- Where a chord applies to only part of the word it should be placed in front of the relevant syllable of the lyrics.
- Where a chord appears in the middle of a word the square brackets should be prededed by a space.
- Where there are successive chords- with no aligned lyrics, they should be butted together and in turn abutt the next lyric syllable.


Why follow this convention?

- It's easy to write using any text editor, with just a few simple syntax rules.
- It's easy to read and unambiguous for any type font or page size.
- It can never get chords out of alignment with lyrics - which is so easy to do with chords on the line above the lyrics.
- ChordPro software (and similar) uses this format and furthermore allows users to print output in alternative formats (including above the lyrics) plus it allows robust transposition of the chords.
- Pavane's HARMONY program now uses this format. For a number of users this will mean that creating music files with aligned lyrics will make life a lot easier to submit tunes to the Digital Tradition.
- While the abuttment of chords and lyrics is not necessary for HARMONY, it will allow the importing of lyrics into NoteWorthy Composer and a variety of ABC utilities without losing alignment. Typically the presence of a space in lyrics represents a new syllable

I enjoy a lot of the spirit of anarchy at Mudcat, but would recommend the adoption of a common convention for chords and lyrics.

If some modicum of consensus is reached then perhaps Joe could ultimately include such details in the Mudcat Guide.

Subject: RE: Put the chords where?
From: Mudlark
Date: 06 Jul 04 - 10:44 AM

I agree with your format, John in Brisbane. It's a lot easier than trying to place chords above words, and it's a LOT more intuitively accessible than the RIS format. And for any tune that isn't just straight 1-4-5 progression, I appreciate having the chords.

Subject: RE: Put the chords where?
From: pavane
Date: 06 Jul 04 - 11:03 AM

Don't forget that HARMONY can GENERATE them from the tune as well.

Subject: RE: Put the chords where?
From: Amos
Date: 06 Jul 04 - 11:50 AM

A simple way to place chords over text is to fill in the blanks with ~~~ characters.

C~~~~~~~~~~F~~~~~~~~~~~~AM~~~~~~~~~~~~G
Like this, you see, to row skat a diddlium------day


A

Subject: RE: Put the chords where?
From: GUEST,JOHN of ELSIE`S BAND
Date: 06 Jul 04 - 12:03 PM

Stick with the tried and tested method that has been used ever since musical annotation was first put in the printed form and you cannot go wrong. See any sheet music that contains chords as samples and it will all fall into line.

Subject: RE: Put the chords where?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Jul 04 - 01:48 PM

the tried and tested method that has been used ever since musical annotation was first put in the printed form I take it that measn putting the chird above the appropriate place in the text.

In which case you cannot go wrong just doesn't apply, when you are doing it via a computer which adjust the exact place it puts the chords. Though if you listen to what you are playing, and are ready to adjust what you are seing to make it sound right, it's easy enough to sort out that kind of thing.

Subject: RE: Put the chords where?
From: Mark Clark
Date: 06 Jul 04 - 01:55 PM

I think John's idea is a good one. There are many ways to tie chords together with lyrics and each has some strengths and weaknesses. I guess I'd rather see ABC used because it's a more complete system and doesn't insist that the reader already know the melody. Still, simple chord-lyric formats are common and the one John suggests at least has software support.

Of course the phrase herding cats comes to mind with respect to a Mudcat standard. <g>

Amos, keep in mind that each computer user has the option to choose his or her own default font for text display and fonts don't necessarily have standard width ratios between similar characters. What works in a Roman type face might break in another. The only way such positioning stays consistant is to enter the text using <code>code tag pairs</code>.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: Put the chords where?
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 06 Jul 04 - 02:47 PM

In other words, you want it to look like this, for example: BIG BAD BILL FROM LOUISVILLE in the DT.

I have 2 problems with John's suggestion:

1. Search engines. You can't search for, and find, a phrase from the lyrics if the phrase as posted is interrupted with a chord symbol. Since I do a lot of searching in response to requests for lyrics, I encounter this problem a lot.

2. Spell checkers. Spelling errors are rife in both Mudcat and the DT, usually due to pure carelessness—i.e. lack of proofreading—by people who post lyrics. Personally, whenever I post lyrics, even if I copy them from another website, I copy and paste them to Microsoft Word first, and run the spell checker, as well as doing a careful visual proofread, before I copy and paste again to Mudcat. I wish others would do the same. Spelling errors also make lyrics impossible to find with a search engine. (Dialect is another problem, but I won't go into that.) I hope the people who are harvesting songs for the DT are checking them for spelling errors.

The difficulty is that, embedding chords into lyrics causes practically every word with a chord preceding it to be flagged as an error, thus making error-checking more tedious than it needs to be. You can decrease the problem to some extent by leaving a space after the bracket, but that still leaves the problem of chords that come in the middle of a word.

Personally, I prefer to have chords above the lyrics, but since I am not a musician myself, I suppose my preference doesn't carry much weight. Also, I don't use any of the software mentioned here.

If people insist on having embedded chords, then I would prefer that they post two copies of each set of lyrics, one with, and one without, chords. And, needless to say, the copy without chords should be rigorously checked for spelling errors.

Subject: RE: Put the chords where?
From: Mark Clark
Date: 06 Jul 04 - 03:03 PM

I have to say, Jim makes a strong argument here. Without the ability to search on lyric content, the song looses value as an archive. It's really only useful for those who happen to see it in a thread or already know what title they're looking for.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: Put the chords where?
From: Ed.
Date: 06 Jul 04 - 04:54 PM

It's an interesting question.

I've tended to post chords (not that I've done it a lot) using HTML 'non-breaking spaces' This thread illustrates the problems inherent in that.

Jim makes a couple of good points, but I would argue against them.

For almost every 'chord request' the lyrics are available elsewhere. (the chords probably are too, but let's not go there...) so Mudcat isn't likely to be the sole source, and as such it doesn't really matter if the Mudcat entry comes 'first' in a Google search.

For more obscure stuff, I'd suggest that we have enough decent (and creative) web search experts who realise that a search for a few short phrases, is effective in overcoming the problem

Subject: RE: Put the chords where?
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 06 Jul 04 - 06:30 PM

Ed: I'm not sure I understand your argument. By "elsewhere" I assume you mean elsewhere on the Internet, as opposed to elsewhere at Mudcat, such as in an old thread? So you seem to be saying there's a greater need for posting chords at Mudcat than posting lyrics?

Let's see, if I put "Lyr Req:" in the filter box and set the time limit to 90 days, I bring up 617 threads. If I put "Chords Req:" in the filter box and set the time limit to 90 days, I bring up 29 threads, and 22 of those are asking for both lyrics and chords. If I search for "Chord Req:" I find 27 threads.

OK, that could be because people are not using appropriate prefixes. If I search for "lyr" only, I get 925 threads. If I search for "chord" (this will also find "chords") I get 104 threads.

Hmm…

But, as Mark says, it's like herding cats anyway. Mudcatters will post whatever they damn please, standards or no. And I would never want the "standards" to be so rigid that people who have something valuable to contribute feel discouraged from doing so. I'd rather have lyrics misspelled than not posted at all, etc.

Subject: RE: Put the chords where?
From: open mike
Date: 06 Jul 04 - 08:34 PM

i can see how the letters associated with the chords
might confuse when searching for the words in the lyric
(for instance: {A}|'m a rambler and rover [D] and a wanderer it seems
might not show up if you searched rover and wanderer unless you put the
{D} in there??)
I like to see the chords right above the notes when reading
the song while playing it..and singing it.
but do have trouble getting things to line up
when using the computer...
sometimes it looks right on the screen
but when posted or printed, things change around..

Subject: RE: Put the chords where?
From: semi-submersible
Date: 06 Jul 04 - 11:19 PM

A simple way to place chords over text is to fill in the blanks with ~~~ characters.
        On my screen, Amos's example shows the comma under F, "dlium" under AM, and "day" half way between AM and G. Tildes do not a fixed-pitch font make. Sorry.

        I like JiB's suggested format. It's an easy way to post chords, especially if lyrics have already been posted. I've one question: whether to add a hyphen before the chord in a split word (e.g. to- [D]gether) or not (e.g. to [D]gether)? I'd hate to clutter harvested lyrics with stray hyphens.

        On the other hand, Jim, searching for songs is an important part of the Mudcat for me too. It's hard enough choosing a search phrase unlikely to be misspelled or interrupted by punctuation, without guessing which [G7]chords may punctu- [D]ate the words in my search string.
        Posting twice does seem a little wasteful, but anyone can do it, without learning ABC and HTML. At least we'd only have to do it for songs that aren't already posted elsewhere in the Forum. But I guess I'd better learn ABC after all. Then I can link both chords and tune to lyrics at one go.

Maureen

Subject: RE: Put the chords where?
From: John in Brisbane
Date: 07 Jul 04 - 12:06 AM

You can always post lyrics HERE using a fixed pitch font (say Courier) and place the lyrics above the matching syllables - and it works just fine if you know the HTML lingo and use it properly. The problems occur down the track if someone cuts and pastes to another application and uses a different font. Then the chords will be all over the place like a dingo's breakfast.

The argument about Searches is an interesting one and an issue that I don't profess to know too well. However if I was using Google to find the lyrics to 'The Boy Stood on the Burning Deck' I might type 'picking his nose like mad'. If I don't put this phrase in inverted commas then I believe that Google would find the individual words even if they were preceded by square brackets. Include the parentheses and it probably won't work. I haven't tried.

I guess that the endowment of any standard involves compromise. I'll leave that decision to those Mudcat members who are likely to actually use it.

Regards, John

Subject: RE: Put the chords where?
From: open mike
Date: 07 Jul 04 - 01:50 AM

i love this phrase!
all over the place like a dingo's breakfast.
i just heard this one in a john hartford song
"Darker than the inside of a cow.."

Subject: RE: Put the chords where?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 07 Jul 04 - 03:46 AM

The very simple method for posting chords, or other "aligned" type, is simply to lay it out in a monospaced font like Courier in your word processor, and the use the "preformat" tags when you "paste and post it."

If you tack a "<pre>" tag on at the beginning, and close with a "</pre>" tag at the end of the stuff that's aligned, the stuff in between the tags will keep all the spaces and line breaks just like you typed them, so you don't have to code a lot of non-breaking spaces in code, and it will be displayed on screen in a monospaced font.

If the alignment is off after you copy and paste, just select the section and change it back to whatever monospaced font you like, and the alignment should be as originally laid out.

  C              G      F       C
  Sweet fa's the eve on Craigie burn and
  Am       Em        G   G7
  Blythe a wakes the mor-row

There's no way you can use "fillers" in any proportional font and be assured readers will see what you intend, since they get to pick their own display font and different proportional fonts have "different differences" in the character widths.

John

Subject: RE: Put the chords where?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 08 Jul 04 - 04:06 AM

I like John in Brisbane's method best - but I would prefer to see chords for just the first verse and chorus - and then see the ENTIRE text of the song, without chords. This works better for search engines, and it's a heck of a lot easier to read if you actually want to understand what the song says, or if you want to sing it. Big Bad Bill is a perfect example of what John is suggesting - and it's also a perfect example of what drives me batty.
Take note, however, that Dick Greenhaus is the curator of the Digital Tradition, and the final arbiter of how chords should be submitted. As far as I know, Dick hasn't expressed his druthers.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Put the chords where?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 08 Jul 04 - 05:15 AM

"I would prefer to see chords for just the first verse and chorus - and then see the ENTIRE text of the song, without chords"

Me too!

A third vote and we'll call it unanimous! :-)

Robin

Subject: RE: Put the chords where?
From: John in Brisbane
Date: 09 Jul 04 - 05:30 AM

I believe that this is a reasonable compromise and endorse it wholeheartedly.

Most people would know this, but you can paste 'troublesome' lyrics to Word and use the Find and Replace function to remove them.

FIND {^$] REPLACE (leave this field blank) will get rid of single character chord names.

FIND {^$] REPLACE (leave this field blank) will get rid of two character chord names, such as DM or G7.

Two runs of the FIND?REPLACE function should remove the majority chords in square brackets.

If the song has chord names like Gm7B5 then chances are you're not really a folkie and interpreting the lyrics is of no real interest - only kidding of course.

Cheers, John