Ty Coch Caerdydd

Subject: Ty Coch Caerdydd
From: GUEST,Mark Campbell
Date: 28 Feb 02 - 08:12 PM

There are a couple of threads going a the moment with links to this song but I figured after a search it deserved one of its own.

Anyone have the tune for this one (how different is it to John Peel)

Anyone have the "welsh" lyrics (I assume its welsh).

And does anyone know of any Scots Gaelic songs that are related to it?

I hope to hear from you soon

Seeya

MaRK

Subject: RE: Ty Coch Caerdydd
From: GUEST,MARK
Date: 28 Feb 02 - 08:18 PM

Links to associated but not specific threads

http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=4518&messages=81

Subject: RE: Ty Coch Caerdydd
From: GUEST,Tieing it all together
Date: 28 Feb 02 - 08:20 PM

http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=44809&messages=5

And by the way:

Here's to Spike Milligan.

Subject: RE: Ty Coch Caerdydd
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 28 Feb 02 - 09:10 PM

In Wales it was a dance tune; so far as I know, it never had any Welsh language text. It's unlikely ever to have had a Gaelic text, either, though there was a Scottish song sung to a form of the tune. It first appeared, as The Red House, in Playford's Dancing Master (1695, not 1706 as I stated in the mammoth John Peel thread), and may originally have been English. All this information in greater detail in the thread I linked to (along with some bizarre misunderstandings as to the identity of Mr. Peel).

Subject: RE: Ty Coch Caerdydd
From: pavane
Date: 01 Mar 02 - 03:27 PM

I play it regularly, but never thought it sounded much like John Peel. I think Pat Shaw had a hand in creating the Cardiff version - I got it from Mick Tems myself.

Subject: RE: Ty Coch Caerdydd
From: Gareth
Date: 01 Mar 02 - 07:01 PM

Hmmm!, Linguistcally Caerdydd is an invention, presumably to provide work for otherwise unemployable Welsh sign writers.

Cardiff = Stem Latin. Caer = Fort or Castle. Diff = By or on the Taff.

Local pronounciation = Kairdif.

But Caerdydd ? Never ! And any Southwalian will tell you so, and we know 'cos we were there !

Gareth

Subject: RE: Ty Coch Caerdydd
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 01 Mar 02 - 09:20 PM

The "Cardiff" version predates both Pat Shaw and Mick Tems by quite a long time, having been first published in the 1890s. (See the John Peel thread).

Subject: RE: Ty Coch Caerdydd
From: pavane
Date: 02 Mar 02 - 06:35 PM

Don't know about the linguistic background myself, because I'm actually English. Just lived here for 30 years. In fact, Mick Tems is from about 2 miles away from where I used to live, (Essex) and we arrived in South Wales at about the same time. Met at the Ivy Bush.

Subject: RE: Ty Coch Caerdydd
From: Gareth
Date: 02 Mar 02 - 06:49 PM

On a more hurous note

There is a Pub down by Cardiff Bay known as the Ty Coch (Trs Red House) my sister who is not colour blind says that it is painted redish.

Then theres Castle Coch - the Red castle, domonating the pass at Nantgarrw, just north of Kairdif on the A470.

Rebuilt as a folly, in the style of mad King Ludwick (sp) of the Rhine, by the Bute's.

Gareth/Garydd/Garrett/Garth/Gary/Gruff

Subject: RE: Ty Coch Caerdydd
From: pavane
Date: 02 Mar 02 - 07:26 PM

And I live in Bryncoch (Trs Hill Red). 30 years here and I still can't say it right.

Subject: RE: Ty Coch Caerdydd
From: Mr Red
Date: 02 Mar 02 - 07:29 PM

Gareth
I am intrigued, got the Cardiff and the red straight off and I don't sairad the lingo but what is Ty or Trs ?

Subject: RE: Ty Coch Caerdydd
From: pavane
Date: 02 Mar 02 - 07:35 PM

Ty = House, Trs = Translation (I worked that one out) And Ty Bach = Small house (The one at the bottom of the garden!)

Subject: RE: Ty Coch Caerdydd
From: pavane
Date: 02 Mar 02 - 07:38 PM

Just reminded me of when I saw Alistair Anderson in the early 1970's, when he told the saga of Netty Roll Morton, the well known Ragtime Concertina Player. (netty being the Geordie version of Ty Bach, i.e. the outside toilet). And if you don't believe it, I still have the tape!

Subject: RE: Ty Coch Caerdydd
From: Mr Red
Date: 03 Mar 02 - 10:37 AM

Well better outhouse than in-house!!! Ta.

Subject: RE: Ty Coch Caerdydd
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 03 Mar 02 - 11:19 AM

It was Terry Pratchett who had his witches visiting "for'n parts" and discovering indoor plumbing, and deciding that it was most unhygenic to have the toilet indoors.

Subject: RE: Ty Coch Caerdydd
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 03 Mar 02 - 11:20 AM

It was Terry Pratchett who had his witches visiting "for'n parts" and discovering indoor plumbing, and deciding that it was most unhygenic to have the toilet indoors.

Subject: RE: Ty Coch Caerdydd
From: Gareth
Date: 03 Mar 02 - 06:15 PM

Ahhhh! Remember Llamedos - where they have an infinite number of words for rain ! (Soul Music)

Pratchett, learning from "Under Milk Wood"

Gareth

Thank the Lord we are a Musical Nation !

Subject: RE: Ty Coch Caerdydd
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 03 Mar 02 - 08:00 PM

For those having trouble with understanding Gareth's post, Terry Pratchett introduced Llamedos. Whereas Dylan Thomas's "Under Milk Wood" was based in the mythical village of Llaregub. Whilst many Welsh placenames start with the letter "Ll", Llaregub was chosen because (read backwards) it means next to nothing !

Subject: RE: Ty Coch Caerdydd
From: GUEST,Teg
Date: 04 Mar 02 - 06:06 PM

Gareth - Dylan Thomas said 'Praise the Lord we are a Musical Nation', not 'Thank the Lord...' Sounds much better, you'll agree. And if you are suggesting that the name 'Caerdydd' is a recent invention, this is not so. It occurs in the 12th century 'Book of Llandaf' (as 'Caer Di' and 'Caer Dif' - which gave the Anglicised form 'Cardiff'). In the 14th. century it is to be seen in a poem by Dafydd ap Gwilym. Regards!

Subject: RE: Ty Coch Caerdydd
From: Gareth
Date: 04 Mar 02 - 06:37 PM

But Latin - Not the true tongue !!

Tho yor correction on Thomas is appreciated

Gareth

Subject: RE: Ty Coch Caerdydd
From: GUEST,Kate
Date: 04 Mar 02 - 06:42 PM

Pavane, you said you met Mick at the Ivy Bush, is that the one in Ponty, and if so, do you still frequent?

Subject: RE: Ty Coch Caerdydd
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 05 Mar 02 - 02:32 PM

It's amazing how many Mudcat threads start out talking about music and end up talking about language instead.

Mark Campbell: in the post that started all this, you asked if anybody had the tune for Ty Coch. Did you ever get it? I have it, (a Noteworthy MIDI file) if you still want it.

If someone will tell me how to post the tune without making me wade through a three-page essay, I will send it in.

Subject: RE: Ty Coch Caerdydd
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 05 Mar 02 - 02:44 PM

I've posted Tycoch Caerdydd, together with its ancestor The Red House and its relatives Where Will Our Goodman Laye and John Peel (W. Metcalfe's version of 1868) to the  Do ye ken John Peel? thread, where they ought to be most useful.

Subject: RE: Ty Coch Caerdydd
From: GUEST,pavane
Date: 06 Mar 02 - 02:40 AM

Kate, Yes, that's the one. I have only been once in the last 10 years though, when Mudcatter English Jon was guest last year.

I work away from home at the moment, and don't get back until 8pm Friday, so it is difficult to get down there. That is where I recorded Alistair Anderson and Nic Jones in the 1970's. (Also still have tapes of Dis Disley, John Foreman, Tom Gilfellon, and a few more)