Help: Date of 'Liberty' (fiddle tune)

Subject: Date of 'Liberty' (fiddle tune)
From: Nathan in Texas
Date: 01 Sep 99 - 04:50 PM

Does anyone know anything about the origins of the fiddle tune "Liberty"? How long has it been around, who composed it, etc? I assume it's traditional and has been around for centuries, but I've been searching the internet and haven't been able to find anything at all about it except that it's a standard in fiddle recordings and instruction books.

Thanks!

Subject: RE: Help: Date of 'Liberty' (fiddle tune)
From: Mike Billo
Date: 02 Sep 99 - 10:44 AM

I've heard a number of people say that Benjanmin Franklin wanted it to be our National Anthem, so that would have to mean that it was pretty well known back in the 1700's.

Subject: RE: Help: Date of 'Liberty' (fiddle tune)
From: Nathan in Texas
Date: 02 Sep 99 - 01:25 PM

Thanks. I hadn't heard that, and I couldn't find it listed in compilations of 18th century tunes. Anyone else have any input?

Subject: RE: Help: Date of 'Liberty' (fiddle tune)
From: Dale Rose
Date: 02 Sep 99 - 08:59 PM

While talking to A World Reknowned Folklorist today, he gave it a date of 1786. Authorship is one of those things we like to know, but this is one of those cases where it slipped away from us before we realized the value. Various people in the folklore realm have tried to come up with more, but that is about it.

Subject: RE: Help: Date of 'Liberty' (fiddle tune)
From: Nathan in Texas
Date: 03 Sep 99 - 02:44 PM

Thanks again Mike and Dale. You've both been a great help. We're in the process of putting out our first CD and I wanted to put dates on the tunes. We combine Liberty and Soldier's Joy, so apparently 18th Century is close enough for both.

Subject: RE: Help: Date of 'Liberty' (fiddle tune)
From:
Date: 04 Sep 99 - 02:41 PM

"Soldier's Joy" appeared as a single sheet song with music, c 1760. Song and tune were reprinted in a songbook of c 1778. From the latter the dreadful song is given in Scarce Songs 1 file, and an ABC of the tune in tune file S1 at www.erols.com/olsonw

Subject: RE: Help: Date of 'Liberty' (fiddle tune)
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 04 Sep 99 - 11:46 PM

I guess I'm always leery about the pronouncements of
World Reknowned Folklorists, but I would like to see
some reference about Liberty. I've never seen it in an old collection.

Subject: RE: Help: Date of 'Liberty' (fiddle tune)
From: Guy Wolff
Date: 05 Sep 99 - 12:40 AM

Liberty is wonderfull to play thuogh, whatever its age..I had'nt thought it was 18 century...What state was it found in, in 1786 and good old Soldgers Joy<<>>> I always thought that one was from the cival war...Again anyone know what state it was heard in first????

Subject: RE: Help: Date of 'Liberty' (fiddle tune)
From: Jeremiah McCaw
Date: 05 Sep 99 - 11:12 AM

"Liberty" ... think north. This is according to information on one of Anderson & Brown's CDs. And of course, assuming we're talking about the same tune (I believe we are). Not certain of the date, but the origin is a Quebecois tune called "Reel de Ti' Jean". The tune then crossed the pond where the English translated the title and it became "Little John's Reel". Then it crossed back over to the "colonies" where it was (curiously) retitled "The Liberty Two-Step".

If this information is accurate ... now ya know!

Subject: RE: Help: Date of 'Liberty' (fiddle tune)
From: wildlone
Date: 05 Sep 99 - 11:51 AM

Ive found a referance to the Liberty song,or in freedom we're born. "The first patriotic music to be written in America was John Dickinson's Liberty song,which swept the colonies in 1768".Sung to the British tune Hearts of Oak. Taken from the book Music for Patriots,Politicians,and Presidents, By Vera Brodsky Lawrence. pub Macmillan.ISBN 0-02-569390-5 Hope this may help .WL.

Subject: RE: Help: Date of 'Liberty' (fiddle tune)
From: Lesley N.
Date: 05 Sep 99 - 12:47 PM

The tune to Heart of Oak was written by Dr. William Boyce (1711-1779). You can find information on him at English Baroque Composers (http://www.lexcie.zetnet.co.uk/englishbaroque.htm) - do a Find on Page for Dr. William Boyce.

Subject: RE: Help: Date of 'Liberty' (fiddle tune)
From: Arkie
Date: 05 Sep 99 - 03:23 PM

Great to add a bit of info on one of my favorite fiddle tunes, and one of the most popular twin fiddle tunes in the Ozarks.

Dick, while your wariness of the edicts of World Reknown Folklorists is understandable, believe me, this ones a gem. I suspect that Dale would agree. I would pit him against any encyclopedia and have. He is quicker and just as accurate

Subject: RE: Help: Date of 'Liberty' (fiddle tune)
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 05 Sep 99 - 04:22 PM

Arkie- I'd still like to see a publishing date. I suspect there were a mess of songs called Liberty, which had nothing to do with the fiddle tune.

Subject: RE: Help: Date of 'Liberty' (fiddle tune)
From: GUEST,Mr. Ozark
Date: 13 Oct 09 - 01:42 AM

An old thread, but. . . .

I came across an old tune that's first part (course) obviously was the course, second part of "Liberty". I got this from a recording made in 1971. This fiddler was born in 1891. I played it for last of the old-timers up here, and he didn't know it, despite having grown up around, and played many times with the other man.

I then had occasion to play it for another fiddler, not quite as old, and he recognised it as "Liberty", played nearly identical to the way his uncle played it, who was born in 1880. He said that his uncle played it that way, but that his dad (1908) played it the way it is commonly heard today.

So, here are two men from the late 1800s, many miles apart but in the same area of the Ozarks, who played this tune very much alike. We surmised that the change may have come as an adaptation to the square-dances, as they changed in the early 1900s.

Far as I know, the first recorded instance of "Liberty" was by Fiddlin' John Carson, in 1925.

Subject: RE: Help: Date of 'Liberty' (fiddle tune)
From: GUEST,Mr. Ozark
Date: 13 Oct 09 - 01:48 AM

Forgot to mention that the fine part of the newly discovered, old Liberty bears no resemblance to the fine part of the more well-known version of Liberty.

Subject: RE: Help: Date of 'Liberty' (fiddle tune)
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 13 Oct 09 - 04:56 AM

I assume that none of the above postings refers to "Liberty" off the Corn Liquor Still. is there any knowledge of this tune prior to the Skillet Lickers sketch?

Hoot

Subject: RE: Help: Date of 'Liberty' (fiddle tune)
From: GUEST,bb29slider
Date: 17 Nov 10 - 08:43 PM

The song "Liberty" written by John Dickinson and sung to the old english tune, is a totally different song than the fiddle tune "liberty".   All you need do is go listen to someone sing it. It's not even close in the tune.

Subject: RE: Help: Date of 'Liberty' (fiddle tune)
From: Midchuck
Date: 18 Nov 10 - 10:15 AM

I have heard, but can't remember where, that the fiddle tune, Liberty, has as alternative title, "The Tipsy Parson."

I'm trying to confirm this, but a Google search on that title is tricky, because "The Tipsy Parson" appears to be, also, the name of a VERY fashionable restaurant in New York City, that everyone is posting on the web about.

Peter

Subject: RE: Help: Date of 'Liberty' (fiddle tune)
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 07 Dec 10 - 09:02 AM

Does anyone know which tune "Liberty" is in Ryan's Mammoth Collection of Fiddle Tunes? There's 1050 of them!

Subject: RE: Help: Date of 'Liberty' (fiddle tune)
From: Jack Campin
Date: 07 Dec 10 - 04:06 PM

Could somebody post an ABC for the tune that everybody across the pond seems to know?

Subject: RE: Help: Date of 'Liberty' (fiddle tune)
From: bubblyrat
Date: 08 Dec 10 - 04:39 AM

Can anyone explain what "Reknowned" means ??

Subject: RE: Help: Date of 'Liberty' (fiddle tune)
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jan 11 - 06:23 PM

Here you are Jack:

X:1
T:Liberty [1]
M:C|
L:1/8
R:Reel
K:D
"D"f2A2 f2A2| fgfe d2ef|"G"g2B2 g2B2| gagf e2de| "D"f2A2 f2A2|
fgfe d2ef| "G"gfed "A"cABc| "D"d2f2 d4:|
|:"D"A2AB AGFE| DFAd f2d2| A2AB AGF2| "A"E3F E2FG|
"D"A2AB AGFE| DFAd f2ef| "G"gfed "A"cABc| "D"d2f2 d4:|

Not quite what I play, but close enough. From Fiddler's Companion site.

Subject: RE: Help: Date of 'Liberty' (fiddle tune)
From: Jack Campin
Date: 18 Jan 11 - 06:51 PM

I've heard that several times in Scottish sessions but never had a name for it before. It hadn't occurred to me that it might be an American tune, but there you go.

Subject: RE: Help: Date of 'Liberty' (fiddle tune)
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 29 Jul 11 - 04:37 PM

I've been told "Liberty" (the currently popular fiddle tune was used as a campaign song/tune during the Thomas Jefferson Presidential campaign.

Subject: RE: Help: Date of 'Liberty' (fiddle tune)
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 29 Jul 11 - 05:55 PM

THat was prolly "Jefferson & Liberty". Different, though excellent, tune

Subject: RE: Help: Date of 'Liberty' (fiddle tune)
From: Lighter
Date: 10 Aug 26 - 10:16 AM

Traditional Tune Archive says:


"The first recording of the tune was by Texas fiddler Bob Wills in 1947 for Columbia records, and although there is no information on where he may have obtained the tune. He is known to have had some of his repertoire from his father, but it is only speculation that the tune was in the Wills family prior to Bob. It was quickly and widely disseminated in North America following Wills' recording. Tommy Jackson's 1954 recording of "Liberty" for Dot Records may have helped popularize the tune among American fiddlers, and Don Messer's 1953 recording ("Liberty Two-Step") and Bob Hills & his Canadian Playboys ("Reel de Tí-Jean", 1955) were influential in Canada. Although assertions have been made for further antiquity, there is no evidence that has come to light for earlier origins."

The American composer Henry Cowell premiered a nifty "Liberty Hornpipe" in 1941, but I hear no resemblance to the folk tune:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYOQutCbBYc&t=1147s

I've searched two huge newspaper databases, but no "Liberty" till 1947. Of course, the tune may have existed under a different name, but there's no way to know this.

"Liberty" isn't mentioned in any of the fiddle-tune lists I've posted from the early 20th century. It seems not to have been played at any "old fiddler conventions" reported on from the 1890s through the 1950s

In any case, (see above) Ben Franklin never recommended it as the national anthem, and Thomas Jefferson never used it as a campaign song.