Arabic Influence on Renaissance Music?

Subject: Arabic Influence on Renaissance Music?
From: Kim C
Date: 11 Feb 02 - 10:30 AM

Okay, historians & early music people, help me out here.

Mister came by a very cool CD of Renaissance/pre-Renaissance music by a German group called Wolgemut. Some of the tunes are obviously European, but others seem to have an Arabic/Middle Eastern influence to them. (great for belly dancing!)

But I got to thinking, and here's what I want to know.... how much did Middle Eastern culture influence European early music? The Moors occupied a large piece of Europe, as did the Ottoman Turks, plus a lot of Europeans traveled to the Holy Land during the Crusades.

Any and all contributions made in good faith are welcome and appreciated.

Many thanks ----- KFC

Subject: RE: Arabic Influence on Renaissance Music?
From: sophocleese
Date: 11 Feb 02 - 10:55 AM

Interesting question Kim. I don't have an answer for you and would be interestd in other people's knowledge. My first thought though was that it is an impossible question. How do you measure influence? 50%? 3 drachmas worth? 7 inches?

Yes the Moors had an influence on the music. That influence diminished with distance and the waning of their power. So you'll probably hear it clearest in Spanish, French and Italian music.

The other variable would be the proximity of places where music would be written and archived to places where Moorish influences were heard. There is a fair bit of music in manuscripts from the Middle Ages but a lot never survived.

Subject: RE: Arabic Influence on Renaissance Music?
From: M.Ted
Date: 11 Feb 02 - 11:56 AM

You've pretty much got it, Kim--Contemporary early music groups generally play the Spanish music as if it were Arabic music, on the assumption that the instrumentation and the musical stylings would have to be pretty similar to the existing folk music of North Africa---Unfortunately, this is somewhat of a guess, because the surviving notation is pretty ambiguous stuff--there are no measures, no indications of sharp or flat, and no one really is sure what the pitch values for the notes(particularly the thirds) are suposed to be--also, the notation tends to leave out the drum parts, and those are often either extrapolated from the text, or borrowed from contemporary middle eastern music--

On the other end, the Turks certainly had an impact--The Turks at one point bombarded the walls of Vienna, and had much of eastern europe within their suzerain(sorry, I love that word, and almost never get a chance to use it) and it was the custom of the Sultan to send an ensemble of court musicians as a gift to the regents in newly acquired realms. Of course, the Janissaries (the Sultan's elite guard) travelled with military bands(complete with kettledrums) whose Mehter music was often assimilated in the local dance music, and who had a great influence on the classical composers--

The Turkish court music was(and is) a classical music--which is to say that the musicians are formally trained, and the music is composed by composers who are schooled in a system of theoretical principles-- Western instrumental music was developing at the time when Turkish classical music was at a peak, and it probably had a strong impact--to my ears, the development of melodic ideas in Baroque and Roccoco music seems very Turkish, though the music doesn't sound particularly Turkish because western music uses fixed pitch values, and Turkish music stretches, bends and twists the pitch around--

Subject: RE: Arabic Influence on Renaissance Music?
From: English Jon
Date: 11 Feb 02 - 12:06 PM

Well, instrumentally, the crusades of the medieaval period resulted in certain moorish instruments entering europe...Hurdy gurdy, assorted shawms,bombardes etc. A slack handfull of kettledrums, nakers etc not to mention the oud, and no doubt musical forms travelled along the same routes. Check out the Berry Hayward ensemble - they do pre-renaissance music with a definite arabic flavour.

Subject: RE: Arabic Influence on Renaissance Music?
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Feb 02 - 01:50 PM

Within the last couple of centuries, the piano (or piano-like instruments such as the harpsichord) seem to have been the "standard" instrument. Prior to that, it was the lute. The lute evolved from the oud, an instrument brought into Europe by the Moors. The word "lute" comes from al ud, meaning literally "the wood." Instruments in themselves have a strong influence on the kind of music that gets played on them.

Also, the harmonic minor scale (which wasn't called "harmonic minor" back in those days) has a characteristically Middle Eastern sound. Arabic influence is probably most noticeable in the music of Spain (classic, and especially Flamenco), where there was a strong Moorish presence until Ferdinand and Isabella and that stiff-lipped crowd drove them out.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Arabic Influence on Renaissance Music?
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 11 Feb 02 - 01:55 PM

There is a theory that "morris" dancing was originally "moorish" dancing; that the love poetry of the troubadors was derived from the ecstatic devotional poetry of the Sufis; that the founding of such organizations as the Order of the Garter, the Knights of Malta, and the Freemasons was inspired by imitation of the various Sufi orders in the Middle East; and that all this began because of the Crusades.

See Idries Shah's book "The Sufis" for more information.

Subject: RE: Arabic Influence on Renaissance Music?
From: Kim C
Date: 11 Feb 02 - 02:27 PM

Thanks Y'all. M. Ted, I had read that about the Turkish court music, and the irony that while "gypsies" were largely disdained as a people, their musicians were held in very high regard, and were often hired by the sultans and other dignitaries. Which could explain why "gypsy" music requires more technical playing than just fiddlin' around. :-)

I guess, then, it would be safe to say that the cultures borrowed from each other... pretty much like they always do............

Subject: RE: Arabic Influence on Renaissance Music?
From: GUEST,Desdemona at work
Date: 11 Feb 02 - 02:49 PM

One of the most popular Renaissance instruments, the lute, has its roots in the middle eastern oud (or ud), which was probably made its way to Europe with the Moors when they conquered Spain in the 8th century AD. In addition to instruments such as these, and the bombardes, shawms, etc., the methods of playing them and thereby the music associated with them would certainly have made the journey as well.

After the Crusades, many things that filtered back from the east became absorbed into fashionable Western European society. There were the obvious exotica and luxuries like spices, silks, perfumes, etc., but also the influences of their music and culture. There is scant European music available from the Middle Ages; one will quickly become familiar with the existing estampie, salterelli, & istanpitta if you start listening for them. The Dufay Collective & the New York Ensemble for Early Music are just two groups that have made several recordings of dance music of this period in the last few years.

In truth, I can recommend a number of recordings if you're interested; the common musical "feel" tends to be very eastern, and while this is based on the assumptions noted above, it does make sense within the context of the popular material culture of the time. A glance at manuscript illustrations of the 13th & 14th centuries shows us the fashion for turbaned head-dresses & bright, flowing silk robes; the most expensive (& therefore prestigious)delicacies & spices were imported from the east. Clearly this was a period in which sophistication often had a somewhat "exotic" flavour; in fact, most educated reconstructions of what mediaeval European food might have tasted like favour the opinion that it was a mix of sweet/spicy/salty tastes very like modern middle eastern foods!

Subject: RE: Arabic Influence on Renaissance Music?
From: Kim C
Date: 11 Feb 02 - 03:48 PM

sure Desdemona, I'm interested. :-)

Subject: RE: Arabic Influence on Renaissance Music?
From: mack/misophist
Date: 11 Feb 02 - 05:30 PM

Now that western European music has been covered ( and very nicely, too), listen to some Bulgarian folk music. The Turks controled the area for a long time. The court music I've heard sounds typically western, the folk sounds eastern.

Subject: RE: Arabic Influence on Renaissance Music?
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 11 Feb 02 - 05:43 PM

Listen to some of the early (medieval to renaissance) Spanish music recorded by Jordi Savall and his superb group of musicians, using instruments of the period. I can't get enough of it.

Subject: RE: Arabic Influence on Renaissance Music?
From: M.Ted
Date: 11 Feb 02 - 08:58 PM

There is a "traditional" music form, mostly in Macedonia(but probably into Albania, Greece, and Bulgaria) called "Chalgia" that is really a classical Turkish ensemble--Oud, clarinet, fiddle, dumbek, ney(a kind of flute), dumbek(goblet drum), qanun(a sort of zither), and perhaps a bouzouki like instrument,which plays the turkish music, but using western tempered scales--very cool--most of the Bulgarian folk music has a much more strident pulse than Turkish music, though--

Subject: RE: Arabic Influence on Renaissance Music?
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 11 Feb 02 - 09:57 PM

Old Sephardic (Jewish) music from the Iberian Peninsula and North Africa was very strongly influenced by Arabic music. Recently a few good compilations of this music have appeared.

Subject: RE: Arabic Influence on Renaissance Music?
From: Kaleea
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 01:42 AM

Yep, Jim & Desdemona are on it. The Crusades were originally Ethopians who went out to turn people into Christians--and they really got around. After Christianity was well established and the Crusades were common, they extended back into the middle east, and the slaves & other "trade goods" were brought back (before some of you scream prejudice, this is NOT an editorial comment, only a statement of historical fact!!). The human beings who were slaves were also undoubtedly musicians & dancers and shared their music. There is always going to be some mixing it up when you have some folks traveling about, and some of the men in charge no doubt liked the "exchange" of culture. The musical instruments were found during the travels, and the music came out of that influence also, as others suggested above. The modern scale which we use is based on the major tonality, but the scales used in the rennaisance was based partly on the modes and after much time worked into the Major scale as we know it. The instruments brought back on travels in other eastern countries were lute & oud like, and also there was a shawm like (or sort of oboe like) "screamer", which was like the bombarde and used for belly dancing, and still is, and then lots of fascinating drums & cymbals, very common in eastern music. These wonderful instruments and other things influenced the music, playing those instruments in the Rennaisance style would have been quite a curiosity in the time. The Rennaisance was a time in history when travel was important in the form of discovering & taking over other societies, and part of that is going to be bringing back things considered exotic compared to ones' normal tastes--teas, spices, silks, gems, beads, glass, wines & other forms of alcoholic beverages, gunpowder, & fireworks were very popular. And yes, it is interesting to see the things which influence the direction which music flows in various times & cultures.

Subject: RE: Arabic Influence on Renaissance Music?
From: Kim C
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 12:06 PM

Wow, y'all, thanks! I'm going to look into some of the things that were mentioned. :-)

Subject: RE: Arabic Influence on Renaissance Music?
From: M.Ted
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 01:50 PM

And thanks, Kaleea, for straightening that whole Crusades/Renaissance and tea thing out for us--Mr Grein(my 7th grade World History teacher) would have admired your ambition--only thing, you left out pages and vassals!

Subject: RE: Arabic Influence on Renaissance Music?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 02:10 PM

Kim C:

The Dufay Collective: "A Dance In The Garden of Mirth" "Miri It Is" Chandos Records

New York Ensemble for Early Music: "Istanpitta" "Istanpitta II" Lyrichord Discs

Also check out the following web-sites; Harmonia Mundi in particular carries a great many early music recordings:

http://www.medieval.org/emfaq/misc/labels.htm

http://www.wu-wien.ac.at/earlym-l/

http://www.concerto.demon.co.uk/category.html

Enjoy!

Subject: RE: Arabic Influence on Renaissance Music?
From: Kim C
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 03:11 PM

Oh boy! Thanks! So much music, so little time........

Subject: RE: Arabic Influence on Renaissance Music?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 28 Aug 05 - 09:55 AM

The Crusades are being over-emphasized here. Musical ideas travelled before and after. Trade, diplomacy and mercenary service all figure in to it. Much was also disseminated through the Byzantine Empire (Constantinople was the most cosmopolitan city in the world) and Sicily.
Ideas also travelled back along the same route.
Gypsies were admired as novelty performers for the Ottoman Court, but the Sultan had his own highly trained musicians. The courtly music was a very sophisticated affair and not just anyone, no matter how good, could play it.
I don't quite remember about the Balkans, but for the rest of the Empire, it's hard to say how much of an influence Gypsies were on music. Some itinerant performers were Gypsy, or rather Travellers, but by no means all. Nor were most of the wandering minstrels.

Subject: RE: Arabic Influence on Renaissance Music?
From: Tootler
Date: 28 Aug 05 - 03:15 PM

I can also recommend recordings by Ensemble Unicorn. This link has sound samples from their album "Chominciamento di gioia", music from 14th. century Italy.

Geoff

Subject: RE: Arabic Influence on Renaissance Music?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 28 Aug 05 - 03:56 PM

The best early music I've heard is Kudsi Erguner's "Osmanli Davullari" (Ottoman Drums).

Subject: RE: Arabic Influence on Renaissance Music?
From: GUEST,DB
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 08:05 AM

The Ottomans were often characterised as 'Turks' but by the time of Suleiman the Magnificent (Sixteenth Century) their empire was extremely ethnically diverse, containing people from Anatolia, the Balkans, North Africa, the Middle East etc. As the Ottoman Empire was one of the key superpowers of the time it is highly likely that many aspects of their (collective) culture were disseminated even further afield.

Subject: RE: Arabic Influence on Renaissance Music?
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 10:59 AM

Right, DB!
There are some instruments imported from the orient. Early the lute [al-'ûd]. During the wars with the Turks a special instrument was introduced into German military bands from the prizes, which is in German called "Schellenbaum" = jingle tree, often mistook for a standard, or pennant by foreign vsitors. Also the big drum is from Turkish origin. (Old army joke: The melody is for the officers, for the enlisted herd is the drum - bang is always left foot.}
The crucial difference between Oriental and European music is: Only the Europeans developed polyphony, and don't know the quarter tones which are common in the Orient.
The European scales, of which only survived major and minor, are from early Greek origin. More old scales were preserved until medieval times in church music.

Subject: RE: Arabic Influence on Renaissance Music?
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 11:04 AM

And there are the "Turkish marches", or "alla turca" (Mozart, Haydn, Beethoven): not so much moving tunes but static ones influenced by the Turkish field music which our ancestors heard on the battlefield without tremble.

Subject: RE: Arabic Influence on Renaissance Music?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 12:39 PM

The Schellenbaum appears in dozens of Ottoman miniatures. They really are interesting sources.
I'm simplifying a bit, but the Ottomans incorporated the Greek music of the Byzantines with that of the Arab and Persian courts. Of course they also had their own melodies as well as a strong Sufi tradition.
For anyone interested in Ottoman history (a pet subject of mine), I can't recommend "Lords of the Horizon" highly enough. Very entertaining popular history, full of details, best place to start from.

Subject: RE: Arabic Influence on Renaissance Music?
From: Tootler
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 02:23 PM

Wilfried Schaum wrote ... The crucial difference between Oriental and European music is: Only the Europeans developed polyphony, and don't know the quarter tones which are common in the Orient. The European scales, of which only survived major and minor, are from early Greek origin. More old scales were preserved until medieval times in church music.

Not entirely true. Many of the "old" scales (Modes) remain in traditional melodies from the British Isles. The Scandanavians use quarter tones in their traditional music. I am sure there are other examples.

On of the flute tutors at Folkworks Summer School this year was from Sweden and as well as teaching us some traditional Swedish Tunes, she brought along some traditional flutes. One was superficially identical to an alto recorder (complete with thumbhole - and it responded to recorder fingering) but the seventh fingerhole was tuned a quarter tone sharp of F rather than the Fnat of a normal alto recorder. She said that the cadence on a G maj scale used this slightly sharp F rather than the normal F# normally used for the scale of Gmaj.