Folk Icons & Hype

Subject: Folk Icons & Hype
From: GUEST,Susan C.
Date: 20 Oct 05 - 06:44 PM

What folk icon(s) have you seen live or on TV that didn't live up to their publicity/hype/image as a "performer"? In what area(s) did they come up short in your opinion?

Subject: RE: Folk Icons & Hype
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 20 Oct 05 - 08:27 PM

What / Who is a folk icon? The only one I'd grant that title (and he probably wouldn't thank me for it) is Pete Seeger.

He did disappoint me the only time I saw him live, though - at Tonder in 1990. His voice was far gone by then, and I thought he was trying to make up for it by moving about the stage with exaggerated liveliness. I now think I may have been unfair, that he was just being his usual self. I don't know, and I now remember that weekend with a lot more fondness (sentimentality?).

Subject: RE: Folk Icons & Hype
From: Elmer Fudd
Date: 20 Oct 05 - 08:51 PM

What is the purpose of such a question ? It seems to me to be a set-up for gratuitous mudslinging and petty jealousies. Does the questioner have a particular "icon" in mind herself, or does she want to enjoy watching some fur fly, or what? There is a certain ugliness to it that seems inappropriate for a site devoted to the support and appreciation of music and musicians.

Elmer

Subject: RE: Folk Icons & Hype
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 21 Oct 05 - 12:03 AM

YOUR IMPLIED DEFINITION as I see it from here: FOLK ICON --- A person who survives singing folk songs long enough to possibly gain the notoriety necessary to, eventually, be able to make a living doing that---as outrageous and as unforgivable as that might sound to some.   ;-)

**SMILE**

Again, it's about personal preference!

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Folk Icons & Hype
From: Joe Offer
Date: 21 Oct 05 - 01:04 AM

Hey, Art thieme's a folk icon, isn't he? I haven't seen him yet, but I'm bound and determined to - and I don't expect to be disappointed.

Actually, most of the folk icons I've heard have been pretty darn wonderful - and most have been very approachable. I guess one disappointment was Gordon Bok, he seemed depressed, and he kept forgetting lyrics. I liked his singing, though.

If you class Bob Dylan as a folk icon, then I'd say he was a total disappointment. Forty-five minutes of singing - no talk, no encores, no nothing; and the music he did was downright sloppy.

Oh, and the recent iterations of the Kingston Trio have been disappointing, and Glen Yarbrough is a very sad case.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Folk Icons & Hype
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 21 Oct 05 - 01:39 PM

Icons often tend to have feet of clay when viewed from within themselves.

Mentors, on the other hand, tend to stay idealized----if only because recognizing their feet of clay would diminish the choice of having accepted that person as a mentor.

All that said, it doesn't really matter! We do what we do---and we might as well learn to appreciate and accentuate the many positive aspects of those we have elevated onto the pedestals--if only in our mind's eyes.

Art

Subject: RE: Folk Icons & Hype
From: Elmer Fudd
Date: 21 Oct 05 - 02:16 PM

Very well stated, Art. Also, I think we also have to make allowances for people having off-days. I have seen/hearrd some excellent artists give concerts that were not up to their usual standards. If that was the only concert of theirs I had ever witnessed I might be prone to dis them on a thread like this, and that would be mightily unfair.

Elmer

Subject: RE: Folk Icons & Hype
From: Lancashire Lad
Date: 21 Oct 05 - 03:06 PM

I can't really see the point of this thread. Some musicians have become "iconic" for a reason. But not one of them would claim to be able to maintain the same drive / forward thinkingness / vocal or musical agility decades after their rise to fame. Not to mention that every artist can have a bad night. Dylan;s name was mentioned early in the thread. Ive seen him in sparkling form one night, but totally non connected on another. I'd still pay money to see him again and thank him for his contributions to the music I love.

LL

Subject: RE: Folk Icons & Hype
From: GUEST,Sidewinder.
Date: 22 Oct 05 - 02:23 AM

Bachman Turner Overdrive -perfunctory Bachman,jaded Turner and too much Overdrive for me.

Regards.

Sidewinder.

Subject: RE: Folk Icons & Hype
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Oct 05 - 04:39 AM

Is this an 'English disease'?

When people get really good and then famous somebody wants to knock them down.

I could be wrong but Steeleye get far more stick than is appropriate. Mike Harding is a genuinely nice bloke who does lots of good things but is sometimes cast as the devil incarnate because he plays too much of one thing and not enough of another on his radio prog. (Oh, god what have I said now?)

Subject: RE: Folk Icons & Hype
From: kendall
Date: 22 Oct 05 - 08:33 AM

Without going into detail, Joe, Gordon has plenty to be "distracted" about.

Subject: RE: Folk Icons & Hype
From: shepherdlass
Date: 22 Oct 05 - 10:02 AM

This does seem a negative thread. How about the opposite approach? Sometimes you hear so much about an artist that you think they can't possibly live up to their reputation. Pete Morton is one of those people about whom I'd heard so many glowing reports, I just assumed I'd be disappointed with him. Then I heard him live, got the albums, bought the T-shirt (actually there wasn't one on sale, but I would've done!) ... You know what I mean? Us Brits particularly are brilliant at deflating oversized egos but maybe it'd be more constructive to give good artists their due?

Subject: RE: Folk Icons & Hype
From: GUEST,Toots
Date: 22 Oct 05 - 10:55 AM

Yes, icon smashing is not only pure English begrudgery, it is their most popular national sport. Not limited to folk music, one sees/hears sneers everywhere.

Subject: RE: Folk Icons & Hype
From: Lancashire Lad
Date: 22 Oct 05 - 11:17 AM

Have to agree with recent comments
We build an artist up. They have some succes then people pounce to knock them down. See recent Kate Rusby comments
Sometimes its embarrasing to be British.

LL

Subject: RE: Folk Icons & Hype
From: Auggie
Date: 22 Oct 05 - 11:23 AM

I don't know if I've ever met any "Folk Icons". I suspect that defining that term could be a thread in and of itself.

I have, however, met perhaps a dozen or so pretty damn good folk artists both before and after, (and once during) a performance. That by itself says quite a bit. Try finding many pop, rock or country artists who will mingle with their masses. I'm afraid they are few and far between.

Folk artists? I don't think I've encountered one yet who wasn't at the very least civil; most were friendly and if not gregarious, at least gracious enough to aprreciate the fact that you could have done something else that evening, but you chose to come see them perform.

No negative stories for you here, Susan C.

Subject: RE: Folk Icons & Hype
From: GUEST,Toots
Date: 22 Oct 05 - 11:24 AM

And most of us seem so unaware of how off-putting the behaviour is to people from other less critical cultures. All humans have these tendencies, of course. But it has reached new heights in contemporary British culture, along with our narcissist worship at the altar of our national 'ironic' sense of humour. We are appalled to discover the entire world doesn't necessarily find it to be even mildly amusing.

Subject: RE: Folk Icons & Hype
From: Celtaddict
Date: 22 Oct 05 - 11:30 AM

I don't think this is a British condition but more a human condition. I was, however, thinking before I got to Shepherdlass' remarks, and Lancashire Lad and Elmer Fudd, that I would rather see some input on what are some of the features that make someone (anyone) seem iconic in their field to those of us who love their field?
I suspect, for me at least, passion is a necessary ingredient.
As Art suggests, longevity.
Influence on others in the field; inspiring "I wish I could be more like ___." This is not the same as inspiring copycat performers, which cannot possibly be as good as whoever they try to copy, but a more general approach: wish I had Pete Seeger's passion for his causes, Gordon Bok's poetic introspection, Bob Dylan's ability to try something never tried before, Art Thieme's shoot-from-the-hip wit, and many more. . . .

Subject: RE: Folk Icons & Hype
From: Lancashire Lad
Date: 22 Oct 05 - 01:02 PM

"I suspect, for me at least, passion is a necessary ingredient"

I agree with that Celtaddict. Thats what makes artists as diverse as Dick Gaughan, Billy Bragg and Frankie Armstrong so important to me.

LL

Subject: RE: Folk Icons & Hype
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 22 Oct 05 - 06:22 PM

I agree with most of the above as to 'What makes a great folk performer', and quite a few of my heroes have been mentioned. But does it make them all icons? To come back to my example: Pete is about the only one I can think of who'd need no surname; everybody would automatically think 'Seeger'. Who else can claim that? (Not that he would!)

Subject: RE: Folk Icons & Hype
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 Oct 05 - 08:10 PM

Joe, Gordon Bok must have been having a real off night when you heard him. Too bad.

I've heard him twice, first in Bellingham, WA, then a couple of years later, in Seattle. While he was in Seattle, on the evening before his concert, a bunch of us got together with him on a houseboat on Lake Union (just north of Seattle city center) and swapped songs. He was very outgoing and friendly. He and I swapped guitars for a song or two—he had a Santos Hernandez classic with him—and after playing my Japanese-made classic a bit, he said, "Beautiful, warm sound. It has bells in it." And it was great to hear that voice up close (like dark chocolate). The following evening at the Museum of History and Industry auditorium, he laid down a superb concert. Great program, great voice, and great guitar work.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Folk Icons & Hype
From: Peace
Date: 22 Oct 05 - 08:27 PM

Hype is part of the business. However, singers/songwriters/performers who manage to keep doing it for any length of time obviously have a following of sorts. That is, they have a 'base' of people who like their work. That oughta tell people something.

Subject: RE: Folk Icons & Hype
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Oct 05 - 12:03 AM

Harry Lee Wigford. He was a dreadful disappointment. He performed wretchedly. I want my $10 back! The secret decoder ring has also been a big disappointment. It simply does not work. Folk icons have got to stop using these shoddy late night TV ads to flog their "product" on the airwaves. It's disgraceful.

Last week I took all my Harry Lee Wigford records, tapes, and CDs and dumped them in the local landfill. I am disgusted.

Subject: RE: Folk Icons & Hype
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Oct 05 - 12:05 AM

One thing for sure...you'll never see a complaint about William Shatner on this thread. His performances are always flawless.

Now, Harry Lee Wigford, THAT's another story!

Subject: RE: Folk Icons & Hype
From: Elmer Fudd
Date: 23 Oct 05 - 12:37 AM

LOL, LH! Atta boy. Ya always get to the heart of the matter, man.

Subject: RE: Folk Icons & Hype
From: GUEST,Billy
Date: 23 Oct 05 - 02:46 AM

Au contraire!
99.9% of all the folk acts I have seen (in the midwest)have been excellent. (The 0.1% was a person who plays autoharp and failed to notify me on the day of a concert that he had laryngitis and could not sing. (This I found out 30 minutes before the concert). We were treated to 90 minutes of autoharp tunes (with two attempts at croaking vocals). It was awful, but he still walked out with all of the money. He won't be booked by us again!
I recommend to all bookers some of these lesser-known acts from the mid-west.
http://www.kateggleston.com/      
http://www.ljbooth.com/
http://www.smallpotatoesmusic.com/

Subject: RE: Folk Icons & Hype
From: GUEST,Auldtimer
Date: 23 Oct 05 - 07:03 AM

Folk Icons & Hype? This has all come about through the increase in large concert and festival venues. Icons and hype rarely, if ever, existed in the days of smallish clubs and festivals where guests and audence, performers and punters, mixed in the same halls, rooms and pubs. Thankfully there are still many clubs and festivals arround where performers and audences are all made to feel part of the one event and not "them and us".   Cheers

Subject: RE: Folk Icons & Hype
From: Celtaddict
Date: 23 Oct 05 - 07:59 AM

Auldtime, I agree; I think one of the major appeals of tradition-based music is the type of people who perform it. They are in general human and accessible, and, dare we say it, folk.
I have met many musicians, have been privileged to become friends with a number of them.
If my daughter goes to see a major pop or rock act, the socialization is with her friends, and they paid big bucks for tickets online to join thousands of others. That is an entirely different situation from if she comes down to the pub with me and the singer says, "Hi, how are you? How's the team? What would you like to hear tonight?"