Origins: Holmfirth Anthem/Through the Groves

Subject: Origins: Holmfirth Anthem/Through the Groves
From: r.padgett
Date: 21 Mar 06 - 05:01 PM

Holmfirth Anthem was written by Joe Perkin from Holmfirth and it has not escaped many peoples attention that Through the Groves is very similar

Has anyone any information on 'Through the Groves'~ it seems to have been sung by Pop Maynard can anyone date the first sighting please?

I do know that Mary and Anahata have it on CD etc!!

Ray

Subject: RE: Origins: Holmfirth Anthem/Through the Groves
From: Matthew Edwards
Date: 21 Mar 06 - 05:34 PM

The search box doesn't seem to find some more recent threads, but Malcolm Douglas mentioned in this thread Lyr Req:Holmfirth Anthem in Oct 2005 that Roy Palmer had noted a 1790 version which is indexed in Eighteenth Centutury Short Title Catalogue as:

The maiden's complaint for the loss of her shepherd. A new song. [London]. [1790?]. 1 sheet: ill.; 1/40. British Library 11621.k.5(7) Cambridge University Library Madden: ballads, vol. 2 A slip-song - "As thro' yonder grove I walked,". No full stop at end of title. REFERENCE: ESTCT38875.

Subject: RE: Origins: Holmfirth Anthem/Through the Groves
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 21 Mar 06 - 05:38 PM

Roud has a version published on JFS 1909, collected by Vaughan-Williams from a Mr. E Shergold. It's reprinted in Roy Palmer's Bushes And Briars (Folk Songs Collected by RVW). Palmer gives the earliest he can find as "an eighteenth-century ballad slip entitled 'The Maiden's Complaint for the Loss of her Shepherd'". He goes on to mention: "One of the best known versions is known as 'The Holmfirth Anthem', because of an arrangement made at the turn of the last century by Joe ('Mendelssohn') Perkins, woolsorter, and conductor of the Holmfirth Choral Society"

Palmer's appendix gives details as Mr. E. Shergold (aged 75), of Amesbury, Wiltshire at Southampton Workhouse. The ballad slip is without imprint: Madden 5/1060.

Mick

Subject: RE: Origins: Holmfirth Anthem/Through the Groves
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 21 Mar 06 - 05:38 PM

(cross-posted)

Subject: RE: Origins: Holmfirth Anthem/Through the Groves
From: Matthew Edwards
Date: 21 Mar 06 - 06:08 PM

Thanks Mick, I guess Ray has more information than he really wanted now!

My link above seems to have been renamed as Eighteenth Century Cheap Print, but it still doesn't give doesn't give much background information on the Eighteenth Century Short Title Catalogue Project, but according to the British Library;
"Originally, the catalogue was entitled the 'Eighteenth Century Short Title Catalogue', covering the period from 1701 to 1800. In 1987, the International Committee for the 'Eighteenth Century Short Title Catalogue' approved a plan to extend coverage retrospectively to the 15th century and the advent of printing in the British Isles. In 1989, the American team began work on pre-1701 material, and the resulting records were made publicly available in 1994. To reflect the expanded coverage, the database was renamed the 'English Short Title Catalogue'.

Subject: RE: Origins: Holmfirth Anthem/Through the Groves
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 21 Mar 06 - 06:15 PM

It's always been 'Eighteenth Century Cheap Print', surely? I've used it for years. So far as I know, the 'English Short Title Catalogue' is an entirely different animal, and is available only via subscribing institutions.

Subject: RE: Origins: Holmfirth Anthem/Through the Groves
From: Matthew Edwards
Date: 21 Mar 06 - 06:17 PM

Back again!

Another quick look under 'M' in the Eighteenth Century Cheap Print site brings up an earlier 1782 copy from Exeter.

" The maid's lamentation for loss of her shepherd. Exeter: printed by Thomas Brice. 1782. 1 sheet; 1/40. Exeter Central Library Ephemera Not separated from the slip-song printed with it A slip-song - "Down to the woods, down to the groves,". One of two slip-songs printed side by side on one half-sheet, intended to be separated; the other is 'Rodney triumphant, and France humbled', a song commemorating Admiral Rodney's victory of 1782, which has a colophon "Exon: printed by T. Brice". The EXp copy has not been separated. REFERENCE: ESTCT169341."

Subject: RE: Origins: Holmfirth Anthem/Through the Groves
From: GUEST,padgett
Date: 22 Mar 06 - 03:54 AM

Thanks to Mick Pearce, Matthew Edwards and of course to Malcolm Douglas all of whom can be relied upon for accurate information

The Roy Palmer reference would appear to very relevant as my interest is mainly for Yorkshire song sources ~ That Holmfirth Anthem was an arrangement of earlier work as above

Does anyone know of any other songs or arrangements by Joe Perkin other than 'Merry Mountain Child' as popularised by Arthur Howard?

Ray Padgett

Subject: RE: Origins: Holmfirth Anthem/Through the Groves
From: Matthew Edwards
Date: 22 Mar 06 - 09:28 PM

The notes by Dave Bland to the LP A Fine Hunting Day: Songs of The Holme Valley Beagles. Leader LEE 4056 quote an interesting account of the history of the musical arrangement for the Holmfirth Anthem.

In an article published in 1962 in a "local newspaper" Mrs Hale Mason wrote:-

"The music, which is founded on an ancient ballad, was harmonised and arranged by Joe Perkins, of Cliffe, Holmfirth...At the time, Mr. Perkins was conductor of the old Holmfirth Choral Society...It is said that Joe was only paid 2 gns. for arranging Pratty Flowers which certainly seems inadequate, to say the least, but as it is reputed to have taken him only three hours to finish perhaps all was well. I have been told that Joe, a woolsorter, was a lame man and walked with a stick. He worked hard at his harmonies in his grey, stone cottage while his wife, Eliza, sat on their doorstep, smoked her long clay pipe and looked out over Holmfirth far below."

Elsewhere in the notes to the LP Bright Rosy Morning: The Holme Valle Tradition, HD 851 Ian Russell states that the arranger's name is Joe Perkin (not Perkins), and that the arrangement was composed in about 1857.

Ian Russell would almost certainly be the best person to ask for any forther information about Joe Perkin.

Subject: RE: Origins: Holmfirth Anthem/Through the Groves
From: GUEST,padgett
Date: 23 Mar 06 - 04:15 AM

Thank you Matthew

Ian Russell is certainly well into the Sheffield Carolling and has the CDs for sale!

He may have information which he would be happy to pass on (on not!)

You may be unaware of the initiative which we are currently undertaking, that is to collate and record a Yorkshire song database and we are currently seeking appropriate songs

We have a LHI grant to do this!

we = Steve Gardham, Ray Padgett, Mike Parsey (see Yorkshire Garland)

I have the LP referred to a well as Arthur Howard's LP We are going to look as far back as we can and obviously take in Will and John, Ernest and Barry and any others who may be approachable such as Bob Auty

Hunting songs, as such are important but not a priority

Thanks for all your help
A recording session at Holmfirth Festival of Folk on Easter Saturday afternoon will take place at the Old Bridge if anyone is interested in being there (free)
Ray

Subject: RE: Origins: Holmfirth Anthem/Through the Groves
From: r.padgett
Date: 23 Mar 06 - 02:08 PM

Whoops Easter Saturday is wrong I meant the Saturday of the Holmfirth Festival of Folk sorry


Easter w/end is at Barnsley for the singaround in the Shaw

Subject: RE: Origins: Holmfirth Anthem/Through the Groves
From: r.padgett
Date: 24 Mar 06 - 02:09 PM

refresh

Subject: RE: Origins: Holmfirth Anthem/Through the Groves
From: BillE
Date: 27 Mar 06 - 10:03 AM

I once heard a song at the Jolly Porter Reunion (Exeter) in 1998 which sounded very close to Pratty Flowers, but wasn't. The cassette tape ran out just as the previous singer finished and by the time it was reloaded it had missed the first verse(s) of the song in question. The tape then started with the last line of a verse, 'Lamenting for her shepherd dear.' The next verse began: 'Boldly then I stepped up to her..."

If this is Through the Groves, would someone please send me the full words. It was a wonderfully harmonious song, beautifully sung, and deserves a wider singing (even up here in Yorkshire!).

If it isn't Through the Groves, please still send the words if you recognise it!

Bill

Subject: RE: Origins: Holmfirth Anthem/Through the Groves
From: r.padgett
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 02:03 AM

Sounds like through the groves

Subject: RE: Origins: Holmfirth Anthem/Through the Groves
From: Matthew Edwards
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 05:46 AM

BillE, that version you heard in Cornwall looks very like the one from Hampshire mentioned by Gwilym Davies (Tradsinger) in this thread Lyr Req: Holmfirth Anthem.

George Gardiner collected several versions of the song in Hampshire, but the only one which has been published is from Daniel Wigg, of Preston Candover collected in July 1907. Gardiner noted both words and music, but the text only is given as 'Twas Through the Groves in James Reeves, The Everlasting Circle, (London, Heinemann, 1960.) p. 165.

Subject: RE: Origins: Holmfirth Anthem/Through the Groves
From: Matthew Edwards
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 05:54 AM

Bill - sorry for my geographical lapse. Exeter is still in Devon to the best of my knowledge!

I'll add the words of Daniel Wigg's version later, though they differ widely from any of versions already given.

Subject: RE: Origins: Holmfirth Anthem/Through the Groves
From: BillE
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 08:14 AM

Thanks Matthew, that's the one.

Bill

Subject: RE: Origins: Holmfirth Anthem/Through the Groves
From: Mary Humphreys
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 03:26 PM

I sing a version from Mr E Shergold of Amesbury at Southampton Workhouse collected by Ralph Vaughan Williams in 1909. It is published in Roy Palmer's "Folk Songs Collected by Ralph Vaughan Williams". I notice, having gone back to the printed copy today, that I have added a verse before the penultimate one which has the 'pretty flowers' motif. Can't imagine how that crept in!
The rest of it is very similar to Gwilym's Hampshire version.

Subject: RE: Origins: Holmfirth Anthem/Through the Groves
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 04:18 PM

Strictly speaking, Vaughan Williams didn't "collect" the song from Mr Shergold; the credit for that is due to Dr George Gardiner (text) and J F Guyer (tune), 21 June 1906. RVW re-noted the tune in January 1909 prior to its publication in the Journal of the Folk-Song Society (III.4 (13) 1909, 285-6).

He did the same with several tunes from the Gardiner collection (in some cases from phonograph recordings) that the editorial board were a little unsure of for one reason or another, and sometimes gets credited as the original collector rather than, as it were, musical editor. I think that, in some cases, only his notation survives; which of course adds to the confusion.

Subject: RE: Origins: Holmfirth Anthem/Through the Groves
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Mar 09 - 10:39 PM

my name is marty shergold brisbane aust looking for more info in edward shergold area, u seem to know your stuff, i would like a copy of any words or scores on edward shergold for a family history thesis. if you can help please email me at [e-mail]. it would really help thanks.

Subject: RE: Origins: Holmfirth Anthem/Through the Groves
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 16 Mar 09 - 06:44 AM

Pratty Flowers is a contender for the worst song ever written. Blasphemous but true.

Subject: RE: Origins: Holmfirth Anthem/Through the Groves
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 16 Mar 09 - 03:34 PM

Okay, okay, Glueman, the lyrics aren't exactly inspiring, BUT the tune and harmony potential are phenomenal and very inspiring. Watch your back when entering the West Riding.

Subject: RE: Origins: Holmfirth Anthem/Through the Groves
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Mar 09 - 06:56 AM

it is a good song.
doggy in the window,tie the yellow ribbon,watch out they are coming through the door,they are coming to take me away ha ha,yellow submarine,,mellow yellow,they are bad

Subject: RE: Origins: Holmfirth Anthem/Through the Groves
From: GUEST,Steve Howlett
Date: 17 Mar 09 - 09:50 AM

Here's a version I got from Moss, the Fool of Leeds City Morrismen. He claims it was found by somebody in Durham while clearing out a deceased relative's effects, but I am sceptical about that. It does, however, make quite explicit the nature of the "thus" in which the erstwhile Maiden is left!
It goes to the usual tune.

Maiden's Mourning

Abroad for pleasure as I was a-walking
'T was on one Summer, Summer's evening clear.}Repeat
There I beheld a most beautiful damsel
Lamenting for her shepherd swain. }Repeat

The fairest evening that e'er I beheld
Thou promised evermore for to love and adore.
There I gave thee my maiden garland
For thy promise I would be thy wife.

The sorest evening that e'er I beheld
They told me thou hadst listed for the foreign war.
And I cried "Wilt thou go fight the French and Spaniards?
Wilt thou leave me thus, my dear?"

My baby was born with never a crying
And my love lies wasted on some foreign shore.
And I must take me to yonder mill-race,
For in life's treasure I can find no store.

No more to yon green banks will I take thee
With pleasure for to rest myself and view the lambs.
But I will take thee to yon green garden
Where the pratty flowers grow.

Words from Moss of Leeds City Morris Men,
Saddleworth Rushcart 1998

Subject: RE: Origins: Holmfirth Anthem/Through the Groves
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 17 Mar 09 - 03:58 PM

"Watch your back when entering the West Riding."

I'm reasonably confident if you ask 10 people under retirement age in Holmfirth if they think Pratty Flowers is a good song, 9 will say it isn't.
Some of them will even be folkies.

Subject: RE: Origins: Holmfirth Anthem/Through the Groves
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 17 Mar 09 - 04:04 PM

Bad song, nicely sung.
http://www.holmfirthartandmusic.org.uk/prattyflowers.html

Subject: RE: Origins: Holmfirth Anthem/Through the Groves
From: GUEST,marty shergold
Date: 23 May 09 - 07:15 PM

thanks for words,
apparently there as a lyricist or musican under queen anne, and i was hoping somewhere on the planet someone might know more about edward shergold from this period, possiblY of ireland, louth meath are a few names that popped up
marty shergold brisbane.
mshergoldbusmgt@hotmail not optus anymore,
ps does anyone have words for poem by s shergold , called a military career? apparently a six cantor poem?
this is a great site