Still in trouble with the VWML website?

Subject: Still in trouble with the VWML website?
From: Nick Dow
Date: 21 May 26 - 04:55 AM

So many people have given up in despair, I thought it might be useful to start an advice thread. It takes a bit of getting used to and with no offence to the existing tuition on You Tube, problems may be solved by discussion. (I hope)

Subject: RE: Still in trouble with the VWML website?
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 21 May 26 - 05:10 AM

VWML ?

Subject: RE: Still in trouble with the VWML website?
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 21 May 26 - 06:53 AM

Vaughan Williams Memorial Library. A repository of resources concerning folk music and dance.

Subject: RE: Still in trouble with the VWML website?
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 May 26 - 04:33 PM

I have given up trying to give advice, recently someone asked for my advice on their marriage, me of all people.
However i have cast my vote supporting jon Boden and brian Peters. perhaps the vwml library should be moved else where, notice i stress the word perhaps, to stowmarket?

Subject: RE: Still in trouble with the VWML website?
From: Nick Dow
Date: 21 May 26 - 07:25 PM

Wherever they are, the website will be the same. However, I have spent considerable time working on the ins and outs of the new website, and I am quite happy to help anybody who is stuck. I have had quite a few people pulling their hair out trying to use it, and I must admit it is not easy, and I'll wager others are far more adept than I. I'm just offering a bit of help if it's needed. How do you get on with it, Dick?

Subject: RE: Still in trouble with the VWML website?
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 May 26 - 02:05 AM

my apologies I did not understand your question

Subject: RE: Still in trouble with the VWML website?
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 May 26 - 02:27 AM

6 out of 10, ok, but ifind being askeed for a donation a bit annoying as i am already a member, a bit over aggressive.
reminds me a bit of shopkeepeepers who were badgering you all the time to buy something

Subject: RE: Still in trouble with the VWML website?
From: DaveRo
Date: 22 May 26 - 03:04 AM

Doesn't it only ask for a donation if you're not signed in (and have enabled cookies) - like wikipedia?

Subject: RE: Still in trouble with the VWML website?
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 May 26 - 03:21 AM

imo, it is over the top. furthermore if they stopped bollocking about with the name, and ran a festival somewhere like they used to, sheffield might be a good idea, a festival based round good singing rather than so called names

Subject: RE: Still in trouble with the VWML website?
From: Nick Dow
Date: 22 May 26 - 03:54 AM

All good ideas, Dick. Did you find it easy to access the songs you wished to view? If so, how did you manage?

Subject: RE: Still in trouble with the VWML website?
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 May 26 - 04:29 AM

i searched for ball of yarn and ended up with adieu sweet lovely nancy, a sort of magical mystery tour, a bit like being led up the garden path by goosy goosy gander

Subject: RE: Still in trouble with the VWML website?
From: Nick Dow
Date: 22 May 26 - 06:14 AM

LOL That's why I started this thread. When time allows, tell us what you did. I'll post my findings later on when I'm not so busy.

Subject: RE: Still in trouble with the VWML website?
From: Robert B. Waltz
Date: 22 May 26 - 06:22 AM

The Sandman wrote: i searched for ball of yarn and ended up with adieu sweet lovely nancy, a sort of magical mystery tour, a bit like being led up the garden path by goosy goosy gander

That's because the Roud Index isn't organized by titles or first lines; it's organized by Roud Numbers. So a title/first line search will often pick up many different songs. Whereas a search by Roud Number will (usually) get you directly to what you want.

I'm not saying one is better than the other; one is serendipity, the other, directed search. You can choose the sort of search you want.

Incidentally, the next version of the Traditional Ballad Index (which I'm now thinking will come out in early to mid June) will also make serendipitous search easier.

Subject: RE: Still in trouble with the VWML website?
From: Nick Dow
Date: 22 May 26 - 10:14 AM

Meanwhile. If you are a casual browser, looking for 'The ball of Yarn ' here s how I would do it.
1. The opening page has no obvious links. In fact everything is a link. Go for the small typed 'Archive Catalogues'
2. Scrole down to the search engine, bearing in mind it is a bit complicated and sort of works backwards. Enter 'The Ball of Yarn' into the first box marked TEXT.
3.There is a drop down menu in the next box with asks WITHIN. Which at first sight means nothing until you read the options. Select TITLE and search. Geuss what!! You get one bloody song. Why because as Bob says above you need the Roud number to search properly. That's alright if you know it! Well now you do it's marked on your lonely song as Roud 1404.
4.Select the red button EDIT TEXT bin off the title type in the Roud number and add the Roud no. option on the Within box.
5.Dear reader geuss what! You get the same single song again and no others. Bloody wonderful. Why? because it was only collected in pen and ink once.How you are supposed to know that...well now you do. There are 75 sound recordings though. So lets select the box for that on the left of the page.
6. Success! You can listen to some of the recordings.
7. OK let's assume you are looking at a song that was collected in Manuscript form many times. You have finally got the copies up on your screen. You want to take a copy so you right click and bugger all happens. Eventually I figured out the you need to open in another window,(there is an option) and then the right click and the'Save as 'option' is available.
8. If you want to download a sound file use the three dot link by the recording on your screen and it should work.
My honest advice to you is copy as much material as you can, and put it in you own archive file. It saves as mp3 or jpeg, then browse to your hearts content without all the drama, I have copied the entire Hammond Manuscripts.
ON THE POSITIVE SIDE
There are Midi transcriptions of songs (if you can find them) It's lightning fast, and as long as you get the hang of the options you can refine your results. Keep your temper, and try try again, it does make some sort of sense when you get used to it.

Subject: RE: Still in trouble with the VWML website?
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 May 26 - 11:51 AM

perhaps the website needs to be redesigned, really a bit more of a priority than the silliness of chnging their name

Subject: RE: Still in trouble with the VWML website?
From: Nick Dow
Date: 23 May 26 - 12:21 PM

The website choices need to be much more obvious. The idea is to make the collections acessible imo. Not jump through hoops to get to the basics. Yes Dick it should be a priority.

Subject: RE: Still in trouble with the VWML website?
From: Robert B. Waltz
Date: 23 May 26 - 12:56 PM

Nick Dow wrote: The website choices need to be much more obvious. The idea is to make the collections acessible imo. Not jump through hoops to get to the basics. Yes Dick it should be a priority.

Without disagreeing, building an online database -- not a web site, a user-facing database -- is hard. Believe me, I know! And because it's hard, it's expensive. What would you be willing to sacrifice to have that better site?

It's a difficult choice to face. Again, I know this from experience.

Subject: RE: Still in trouble with the VWML website?
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 May 26 - 02:34 PM

there are professional website designers , i know, i have a website, THE EFDSS sgould emplOy a better website designer, Instead of fussing over their name, I am sure they have more money than me, is this not just another example of as, teachers used to say"tries hard but could do better"

Subject: RE: Still in trouble with the VWML website?
From: Reinhard
Date: 23 May 26 - 02:39 PM

Nick, when I search for a song I usually do not use the small typed "Archive catalogues" but two positions to the right the small typed "Roud indexes". Then entering "Ball of Yarn" and "within: Title" immediately gives me 114 entries. The first of it (and most if not all others) shows the Roud number 1404 as a link. When I click on the Roud number link I get 144 entries, enough to suffice my need ;-)

Subject: RE: Still in trouble with the VWML website?
From: Robert B. Waltz
Date: 23 May 26 - 04:15 PM

The Sandman wrote: I am sure they have more money than me

No, they don't. They are under financial strain. If you want them to do something, you either need to say what you would cut, or you need to donate.

If the issue is searching the Roud Index, as opposed to the whole site, it's fairly straightforward, as Reinhard says. And there are other ways to find it, too. For example, you can find the title on the Traditional Ballad Index site and then follow the Roud link. So, for "Ball of Yarn," go to the Ballad Index content list:

https://balladindex.org/ShortContents.html

Search in your browser for "Ball of Yarn" and follow the link to

https://balladindex.org/Ballads/EM089.html.

On that page there is a link to "Roud #1404." That will get you hundreds of links.

Or you can download the Ballad Index software for Windows or iOS (the Mac version is, sadly, pretty much broken). This gives you a full-fleged search machine, based on FileMaker Pro, that will let you do much more complicated searches than the VWML site.

Subject: RE: Still in trouble with the VWML website?
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 May 26 - 05:54 PM

I am a member, that is financial support. are you a member? I am already a member.
I did not find the website easy to navigate
Nick Dow asked a question. I explained that I too had a problem.
I have voted in the ballot as a member
The English Folk Dance and Song Society (EFDSS) has not officially disclosed the exact financial cost of its rebrand. This makes it difficult for me to tell them to cut money since i do not know the cost of the rebrand, but since it will cost some unspecifed amount, Iconsider like many other members that the rebrand is a waste og money when they are under financial strain

Subject: RE: Still in trouble with the VWML website?
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 May 26 - 07:22 PM

if a website needs an explanation of how to use it , perhaps an explanation should be included to make it easier for members like myself and any non members, on how to use it.
Membership of EFDSS is not free
Members of EFDSS are in effect already supporting it financially,
members and non members are imo allowed to reply in a discussion, stating difficulties they may have had with the website.
EFDSS has around 3000 members , multiply it by 50 , standard member is 60 pounds, that means they have approx 150,00pounds
Since Robert you stated they had less money than me , Your statement is incprrect

Subject: RE: Still in trouble with the VWML website?
From: Nick Dow
Date: 23 May 26 - 07:48 PM

Thanks, Reinhard. Whilst that is very helpful, it demonstrates my problem with the website. You have now demonstrated yet another way to access the songs. The previous website, while it had many problems, was a straightforward guide to the songs. Stick the title in, and up came every digitised version of the song, plus sound versions. Scroll left to right and download what you want. How many people have clicked the Roud link on your invaluable website and given up in despair of finding the songs? The answer, in my opinion, should not be too expensive to achieve. Have a quick link option at the top of the page without all the box-ticking link-clicking nonsense.
Should the user wish to refine the search, the options are there already. This is why I suggested that the website worked backwards. I admit that is a silly exaggeration, but there is some merit in the idea of songs first, which version, singer, or format second. As Dick said, it is not user-friendly, with the best will in the world.

Subject: RE: Still in trouble with the VWML website?
From: Robert B. Waltz
Date: 23 May 26 - 09:48 PM

The other option here is simply to download the Roud Indices and load them into your own database/spreadsheet/whatever. Steve makes them freely available, for Cardbox if you have that or as CSV files that you can load into any database, or even a spreadsheet if you're willing to deal with huge numbers of lines. Then you can search however you like.

Moreover, Steve usually seems to release the new download files faster than they are posted at VWML.

The VWML site is one way to approach the Roud Index. But you can create your own that meets your own needs better.

I don't use the VWML site, because I in fact have done just that. Of course, that also means that I'm not fluent in it on the rare occasions I go there. :-)

The question about whether I pay dues to VWML is not really relevant, because I make no claims to tell them what to do -- but I will answer anyway. No, I do not. My budget is finite. Every cent I have that can go to folk music goes to material directed to the Traditional Ballad Index, which does not collect dues. I don't even go to concerts any more, and I generally don't buy recordings if they can't go into the Index. Would I like to do more? Sure I would. I'd also like to give enough to Ukraine to help end the Putin Genocide, and I'd like to give enough to Gaza to save the people there, and enough to Sudan to end the humanitarian crisis there, and on and on. I'm autistic; I have hyperempathy; I find it incomprehensible that our leaders do not do more to make the world a better place. But there is an efficiency question here: If I donate to VWML, and to Mainly Norfolk, and to Folk Song and Music Hall, and all the others, and they donate to me, it is less efficient than all of us simply managing our own money, because it takes time and costs transaction fees. So I put my money toward the Ballad Index, and don't try to get money out of others. And, in return, I try not to attack others for the choices they make.

Subject: RE: Still in trouble with the VWML website?
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 May 26 - 12:40 AM

i criticised their website, and rightly so, I was asked my opinion, i found it difficult to find a particular song.

Subject: RE: Still in trouble with the VWML website?
From: Nick Dow
Date: 24 May 26 - 05:17 AM

OK, small piece of humble pie. I followed Reinhard's instructions. There is a quick link under the Roud indexes option as he suggested. I've been using the website for months, and I needed this thread to find it. That speaks volumes about the website and, I'm afraid, yours truly. I shall pass this on to friends and enquirers.

Subject: RE: Still in trouble with the VWML website?
From: Nick Dow
Date: 24 May 26 - 11:24 AM

I'm wrong!! No I will not be eating humble pie. Once again this galactically irritating website has wasted another God knows how long of my time. There is no link from the Roud indexes list to the archives and photos. Which means you will get listings of the songs but no way of viewing them unless you re-enter your search in archives and photos which you could have done in the first place. So much for the quick link. All I want is to put a song title into a search engine and view the bloody thing! If it has not been collected then say so! I have really had enough for now. I know I shouldn't be ranting but my patience is exhausted for the present.

Subject: RE: Still in trouble with the VWML website?
From: Nick Dow
Date: 24 May 26 - 01:35 PM

OK I've calmed down so here is the reason why the above is happening.
Missing Metadata and Incomplete Digitization Embedding a direct link requires a staff member or software rule to manually map a Roud record to an archive item. Because the Roud Index contains hundreds of thousands of entries, and VWML’s digitized photo and manuscript collection is equally massive, establishing a comprehensive, automated link between the two hasn't been fully completed.

Well it is what it is. Much better when it was what it was.