BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions

Subject: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 27 Aug 11 - 09:11 AM

Dale Farm in Essex, UK., is a community established by travellers some years ago, on land which they legally own.

Basildon Council has served eviction notices to 90 families living on the farm w.e.f 31st August. As a response, supporters of the travellers have established what they call Camp Constant, with the aim of preventing the evictions from being carried out.

Basildon Council's actions are inhumane and pointless. Like all other evicted travellers, they have nowhere else to go, and they will be forcibly ejected from the site while council bulldozers smash up all that they have worked so hard for for so long.

You can read more here and there is also a brief BBC News report .

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 27 Aug 11 - 09:39 AM

Did they obtain planning permission for dwellings on the land they bought? On what grounds are they being evicted?

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Will Fly
Date: 27 Aug 11 - 09:48 AM

According to the local council, although the travellers own the land, only half the families have installed homes legally - the remainder have had planning permission refused because their part of the land is apparently classed as "green belt". (I don't know the ins-and-outs of this - it's only what I've read in today's papers and on the net).

The legal dispute with the local council has been going on for some months.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Musket
Date: 27 Aug 11 - 10:47 AM

I own some land surrounding my home that is classed as green belt. I applied for planning permission to sell it on and was refused.

if I had gone ahead anyway, I doubt I would be in the right and the people living in the houses would be evicted as the properties were pulled down.

Don't wish to sound thick here, but what is the difference? If there is a problem with the law, there are ways in a democracy to get the law changed.

Ironically, their saviour may well be the Prime Minister. Cameron has pledged to remove red tape and make it easier to get planning permission, removing many of the objections a council can make. Funny that by doing so, he may make new friends amongst people who don't pay taxes, think they are above the law, run their businesses without a care for others, lay waste to everything they come across... Oh, silly me... That's why he proposed the new planning laws..... Diddycoys and so called new age travellers fit the criteria for his mates.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: open mike
Date: 27 Aug 11 - 11:28 AM

Perhaps there is a statute that allows non-permanent homes (such as mobile homes, motor homes, caravans) on a different permit basis than "stick built" homes. Here that is the case...if a building is smaller than a certain size or if it is portable in some way it need not comply with all the planning and zoning laws. Having land and living on it are different things, unfortunately. Perhaps the person who sold them that land did them a dis-service, and may have known the
green belt status.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: open mike
Date: 27 Aug 11 - 12:06 PM

I was not familiar with the area, so looked to see where this is.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basildon this is in Essex county, SE England.

here is another article http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2011/aug/26/dale-farm-travellers-prepare-eviction

here is a link to the local radio statio--perhaps some info will be found here http://www.gateway978.com/

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 27 Aug 11 - 12:37 PM

Yes it's on green belt, but it's actually built on the site of a former scrap yard, and probably looks a lot more in keeping with the local environment than the scrapyard did.

Why didn't the travellers apply for planning permission? Because the vast majority of planning applications from travellers are turned down.

The point is that these people are being turned off their site for no reason other than a bureaucratic nicety. I've only seen Dale Farm on tv, but it looks extremely clean and well laid out and organised. It might have broken the letter of the green belt regulations, but it certainly hasn't breached their spirit.

But those who snigger and sneer at diddycoys might pause to wonder where they are supposed to go once they've been evicted. What tiny corner of this splendid isle of ours is left where they can set up home without offending the planning laws and local opinion? Before you try and answer that one, please remember that official traveller sites are already woefully under-resourced and cannot accommodate anything like the numbers of families who need them.

"The hard eyed men who guard the roads
They bid us choose our way.
And yet they will not let us go.
Nor will they let us stay." Ewan MacColl.

Someone said to me the other night, travellerphobia is about the last form of racism that is still socially acceptable. One day we'll kill that off too.

And before I forget, alterations to the planning regulations will not make it easier for travellers to gain planning permission. It will simply make it easier for councils to reject them, and for magistrates to evict them.

One final point. The landlord of the pub at the back of me put up some jumberellas a couple of years ago. "you can't do that", objected the local residents. "You should have sought planning permission first. Moreover they will exacerbate problems with the pub about which we are already complaining."

The brewery sought retrospective planning permission for the jumberellas and got it, despite local opposition.

Seems to me there's one law for the rich and powerful, and another for the dispossessed.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Aug 11 - 12:53 PM

my sympathy is with the travellers

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Aug 11 - 01:06 PM

Our UK planning permission system is based in the nature of use. Change from scrapyard to residential requires planning permission. It is a different use. Residential is residential even if it is in a caravan.

The Green belt was set up to prevent urban sprawl. Those in less crowded countries can have little perception on how that really matters in the UK. If you drove at the legal speed limit (it would have to be at about 3 am) round the south circular and north circular back to where you started it would take over 2 hours and you would be in an urban setting all the way - in some parts quite well into an urban setting.

It was to protect the environment, and the proposed conservative relaxations to let profiteers and land speculators turn a faster buck are quite villanous - but the present system is not honestly run and does discriminate against travellers.

Councils are supposed to provide traveller sites but they do not. Wtat there is is insufficient, those there are are often unsavoury. What is the traveller to do?

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: greg stephens
Date: 27 Aug 11 - 01:39 PM

I am with the travellers. The display of open and revolting racism I see earlier in this thread is disgraceful.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 27 Aug 11 - 02:07 PM

Even though they haven't obtained planning permission, (and I agree, it is the Law) one can't just evict and chuck out people from their dwellings without putting some contingency arrangements in place. Has the local council any ideas about where these folk will find shelter? They will become virtually 'refugees', which isn't humane or civilised. A proper Travellers Site could at least have been prepared for them months ago, with proper facilities, where they could live legally and in peace. There must be elderly and babies etc among the travellers, it isn't right to shove them out. I'm reminded a bit of the Highland Clearances, where people were forced out of their crofts to make way for sheep!

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: GUEST,999
Date: 27 Aug 11 - 03:24 PM

Save Dale Farm video on Youtube


This is worth watching to see a Traveler speaking of the pending eviction. Ten minutes, and worth every second.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: GUEST,999
Date: 27 Aug 11 - 03:29 PM

Of very special interest, imo, are the comments that are down the Youtube page (below the video).

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 27 Aug 11 - 04:34 PM

Fred, have you any land beside you that could house them ? They steal, crap everywhere, dump litter and do what they want as the police can't be bothered chasing after them as they give false names and just bugger off to pester another area.

The days of singing tinkers who do odd jobs, play music and work hard are long gone. These bastards robbed my mother in law and father in law who were in their mid 80's, they posed as Water Board workers,once in they wrecked the house and stole a lot of priceless items. The police told us they knew them, never caught up with them might I add. Scum of the earth who I hope rot in hell only good point is, figures show their kids die young.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 27 Aug 11 - 04:38 PM

By the way Fred, did you not make a very emotional and dramatic speech of departure here a few months ago before you unleashed your plans to create some sort of forum in which you wanted to close down Mudcat ?

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Smokey.
Date: 27 Aug 11 - 04:48 PM

Bluesman, I've been robbed by non-travellers, and where I live is completely surrounded by the buggers.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 27 Aug 11 - 05:01 PM

Smokey, robbing a couple in their 80's was low, you would not believe the mess they left, police said it was a father and two sons, they left a trail across the country of hurt and misery. Why were their photographs not put on Crimewatch ? Oh I know, because they have rights, yes rights which they use daily as a tool to screw us.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Smokey.
Date: 27 Aug 11 - 05:08 PM

Of course it was low, but it was done by thieves. My only point is that their being travellers is as irrelevant as if they were gay thieves, ginger haired thieves or any other sub-group. Everyone, in general, exploits whatever 'rights' they have.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Matthew Edwards
Date: 27 Aug 11 - 05:48 PM

I have just returned home from Whitby Folk Week, where the contribution of Travellers was acknowledged and celebrated on all sides. Thomas MacCarthy and Simon Doyle and his family, in particular, provided hugely enjoyable samples of the songs and tunes which have enriched our traditions. I was also privileged to listen to Sheila Stewart talk about her pride in her Traveller culture.

It is therefore very, very deeply depressing to come back home to encounter the racist prejudice expressed here by the pseudonymous Guest "Bluesman", and the alarming sentiment rejoicing that "their kids die young".

I am sorry for the losses of "Bluesman's" mother and father-in-law, but these cannot be blamed on the whole Traveller community. It is utterly unacceptable to condemn all Travellers for the actions of a few.

Fred McCormick and I both live in Merseyside where we are very aware of the dangers of racism which led in 2003 to the murder of a young man of Irish Traveller background, Johnny Delaney, in Ellesmere Port.

Thanks to Fred for continuing to remind us all of the oppression experienced by the Traveller community.

Matthew Edwards

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 28 Aug 11 - 02:59 AM

Good grief, how could ANYONE rejoice that 'figures show their kids die young'? Sounds like Adolph Hitler!
There are thieves and ne'er-do-wells of all races and persuasions, but the majority in any group is made up of good people who only ask for a peaceful existence. Racism and 'ethnic cleansing' attitudes are dangerous and hate-provoking. I don't want to see such things perpetrated here in UK (or anywhere!).

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 28 Aug 11 - 04:35 AM

The planning system is already a complete shambles and Cameron would, effectively, abolish it altogether so that the rich who he, like most of our elected politicians, represents - rather than we who elected him - can do whatever they like.

Where I live there is a land owner who appears to pay only 'lip service' to the planning system. Complaints to the local council, by local residents, about some of his more outrageous developments and plans, are routinely ignored. Perhaps it's just a coincidence, but the land owner is himself a property developer and appears to be well acquainted with the planning dept. It's not what you know etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 28 Aug 11 - 04:46 AM

Shimrod, a similar thing happened in my last village. A chap decided to build three dwellings in his back garden, in spite of the fact that the access was too narrow for emergency vehicles, and the plot was ridiculously small. There were several objections submitted by neighbours etc, but he was granted permission. He was a well-off businessman and...a Councillor on the PC!

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Aug 11 - 05:20 AM

"Sounds like Adolph Hitler!"
Doesn't it just - and in the long run it adds up to the same thing - ethnic cleansing and genocide.
May as well start to set up our extermination camps now, there are far too many of them to wait until they die off naturally, and the fact that they tend to have large families means their number is increasing daily - perhaps enforced sterilisation would be a good start.
It really is time that armchair (sometimes, not so "armchair"; I've seen the result of arson attacks on Traveller sites) fascists are forced to confront the consequences of their racist bile on humanity.
If Bluesman and his ilk targetted his hatred at any other ethnic or social group in Britain they would soon be viewing the world through prison windows - let's look at that aspect of ignoring the law before talking about planning permission for people who are just looking for somewhere to live.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Musket
Date: 28 Aug 11 - 05:57 AM

I suppose there are many interpretations of "victimisation," "racism" and use of the word "ethnic."

Lets at least get one thing clear.. We have a society, and in order to claim a stake in that society, you need to contribute if you can or be cared for by it if you can't.

Putting the apocryphal Guinness label where your tax disk should be and always dealing in cash is not contributing to the business economy from where I am sitting. Having tax payers pay for your mess to be cleared up when you bugger off isn't fair either.

They are not an ethnic group, they are people who choose not to abide by society's rules. I see no reason why society has to pander to them. People are people and as such have a right to peaceful existence. But people also have the right to contribute to the community they enjoy living alongside.

When I see one fill in a tax form, I'll start advocating their rights. Don't get me wrong, I live near Doncaster, (the woods are full of 'em.) I've sold land to travellers who wish to build a house to retire and people are people, good and bad. You can't generalise, but you can talk about risk. And when camps were set up at the end of an industrial estate where we had premises, the risk of finding the place emptied and trashed as a goodbye present increased. To the point of being realised too. Did they criminals end up answering for their crimes? Well, no. The police said it isn't worth pursuing them.

You can't make people like those who choose not to abide by society's rules and order, you can scream about ethnic cleansing all you like, but if they joined in instead of ignoring, there wouldn't be an "ethnic group" or whatever to be "cleansed" or however you wish to describe people freely expressing an opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 28 Aug 11 - 06:11 AM

If the travelling community want to be accepted into mainstream society then let them start paying tax,send their kids to school as no one prevents them from education.

The negative image is brought on by the travellers themselves. If they insist on being classed as a differnt people then that is what they will get!! Crime is rampant and the settled community is despised and preyed on.

Poverty? let's face it these people are not short of cash!! They go on about their way of life being disrupted when they squat on private property disrupting some poor innocent persons life! Complain about no amenities like restrooms and washing,well if you want to live a vagrants life then thats how it is anyway they can well afford to install these necessities themselves. Civic life starts with Personal Responsibility in other words this section of the travelling community needs to clean up it's act.

What has happened to drama Queen Fred ? Remember his words "I will never return, goodbye, goodbye Mudcat"

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1148767/Pensioner-faces-jail-refusing-pay-council-tax-travellers-door-commit-250-crimes.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Aug 11 - 07:53 AM

"let them start paying tax..."
Nope - let society first recognise them as human beings and treat them as such - why should any social group which is denied the basic needs of life - somewhere to stop, sanitation, drinking water, protection from racist bigotry like yours.... the basic needs of life, even consider paying taxes to a society that has totally rejected them.
School - do you know what happens to Traveller children who attend school, usually at the hands of bigots like yourself? How can they possibly consider sending their children to school, especially if they are not allowed to stop in one spot long enough for them to do so; the same goes for regular employment.
Your racist-based ignorance is typical of the bile I have been listening to for most of my life; I am tired of inadequates like yourself taking out their inadequacies on 'soft target' like Travellers, or immigrants, or anybody who happens to be different than they are.
I think it is you who is very much in need of an education
"They are not an ethnic group, they are people who choose not to abide by society's rules."
No Ian, they are people who have been born to a way of life which is no longer "convenient". There are nowhere near enough legal stopping places for the travelling community as it stands at present. If they stop illegally they risk being driven off and stand to having their homes confiscated. Alternativly, if they move into houses they are greeted with open and agressive hostility, running the risk of having themselves and their children harrassed and abused, physically and mentally, by people who sdhare your ignorance-based views - seen it happen dozen of times.
Nobody has to "earn the right" to be treated as a human being in this life - it comes with being born human - except if you happen to be born a Traveller, it would seem!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 28 Aug 11 - 08:45 AM

Before this thread gets closed down, because of abusive postings by pseudonymous "Guests", I would like to mention that "Bluesman's" real first name appears to be Keith. It wouldn't take a brain the size of Einstein's to work out which Keith.

It takes two to debate sensibly and Keith is obviously neither a sensible or rational person. Therefore, I won't be entering into any further discussion with him. Whoever he is, he is obviously a thoroughly nasty and bigoted piece of work, and I am only sorry that I have to share this planet with his like.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 28 Aug 11 - 08:55 AM

For anyone genuinely interested in the humane treatment of human beings, a demonstration has been called for Saturday September 10th at Dale Farm. For more details visit .

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 28 Aug 11 - 09:37 AM

One should mention that Dale Farm is adjacent to Billericay one of the more wealthy (posh) areas of Essex. And the contention of having a higher demographic of traveller children in the local school (Crays Hill) without receiving extra funding to cope with their particular educational needs, caused a walk out of the school governors and subsequent pulling of all non traveller children from the school. For some years the school has been open and teaching an ever shrinking population of traveller children only.

However, the school has also been teaching adult traveller women and engaging them in taking up governor duties in the school spokespeople for their community.   The space is there and if the council gave permission for them to really settle there, the fear of being shoved along might mitigate the abuse of the site some people complain about.

As an aside there is development planned for north Chelmsford that will introduce 4000 new homes, a secondary school and train station. Included in that plan is a measely traveller site of only 10 pitches.   It appears the plan is to break them up into smaller and smaller groups and to finally do away with traveller culture.

I know that some new travellers seem only to be tax dodgers, but I find this much less offensive than the likes of Sir Philip Green who also avoids paying taxes and trashes the entire globe and engages in human rights abuses with impunity.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 28 Aug 11 - 10:21 AM

Matthew. Sorry, I've only just seen your posting about the Johnny Delaney murder.

In 2003 I was taking care of my mother who was in the last dying throes of senile dementia, plus a whole lot of other things, and it got that way that I just did not know what was going on in the world outside. A situation I'm sure you'll recognise and appreciate.

So the sum total of my knowledge is restricted to the song you wrote about him. Any chance you could post it here?

Will you be at the next Lion session in 2 weeks time? If we can't do anything else at least we can sing a few songs for social justice.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 28 Aug 11 - 10:26 AM

Ah, of course, if you abide by the rules, you are a racist bigot eh?

Mr Carroll, you have every right to question people who don't understand that not paying taxes and leaving your filth for others to clean up. After all, they are some weird heritage that must be protected like Stonehenge.

Living in Ireland these days, you don't have to put up with diddycoys. Mainly because the buggers are all over here.

It is easy to sing Ewan McColl songs about freeborn men and thirty foot trailers, and getting all misty eyed over their plight. Tell you what, let's end their plight shall we?

If they stop being a criminal menace, decent people might stop pointing out their faults. If they start contribute and paying their way, decent people might stop asking the authorities to protect them from the criminal elements within new age travellers and diddycoys, because the culture of crime seems t be part of the tradition rather than impoverished circumstances.

In the meantime, there are always those who can use them as an excuse for their ill thought out outrage against the majority population, and there are always those like my mate who used to own a small construction plant repair business. He loved them so much he once accepted a cheque from one.... Funny that. Before he took it to the bank, he used to say the particular family were misunderstood. After he presented the cheque, well.. I blush at what he used to say. I doubt the sanctimonious Mr Carroll would have liked it anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 28 Aug 11 - 11:17 AM

The good news is, Basildon Borough Council leader Tony Ball said "It will be going ahead very soon".

The council, has its own budget of £9.2 million for the operation. The police is now expected to begin booking hotel accommodation for its officers near Dale Farm, in preparation for the eviction.

I would prefer to see a group of ex squaddies deal with it and the police to keep a safe distance and let them get on with the job in hand.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: greg stephens
Date: 28 Aug 11 - 11:38 AM

Like Matthew Edwards, I have just had the pleasure of attending a session with Thomas McCarthy, Sheila Stewart and others at Whitby: a profoundly moving experience. They, and others like them, are responsible for loving, preserving and nurturing many of the things I hold most dear. A very welcome counterblast to some of the stuff you can, alas, read on this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: greg stephens
Date: 28 Aug 11 - 12:02 PM

Tommy Armstrong had something relevant to say on a very similar topic:
"And what would a dee if aw had the power mesel'
Aw would hang the twenty candymen and Johnny who carries the bell"

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Matthew Edwards
Date: 28 Aug 11 - 12:23 PM

Some of the sentiments expressed by Steamin' Willie and Bluesman are frighteningly intolerant, not least Willie's exhortation "Tell you what, let's end their plight shall we?"

Words like this can have tragic consequences, and such language doesn't belong here. The family of Johnny Delaney have suffered terribly though his death; no more families should be subjected to such brutality.

The killing of Johnny Delaney in Ellesmere Port on 28 May 2003 wasn't widely reported at the time, but it deserves to be far better known. He was living at the time with his family on a traveller's site in Liverpool, and went over to Ellesmere Port that day to visit some cousins. He was taunted by a group of five youths who called him racist names; he tried to run away but fell, whereupon the youths assaulted him, kicking his head so violently that he died from his injuries later that night in the Countess of Chester Hospital.

The police rightly treated this as a hate crime, but at the trial at Chester Crown Court the judge ruled that the attack was not racially motivated, and sentenced only two of the youths to four years imprisonment for manslaughter.

Johnny's family campaigned against the injustice, but the struggle was too much for Johnny's father who died not long afterwards.

You can read a report of the trial on the BBC and there is a very good article by Audrey Gillan in The Guardian.

I have made a song about Johnny, but I won't publish it here yet as I want to be sure his family are happy with it first.

Matthew

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: GUEST,999
Date: 28 Aug 11 - 12:47 PM

I like to hope that the intolerance expressed by too many people on this thread is not the attitude of the general population. It is little different than that shown to Black people in 1950s-USA. I am seldom gobsmacked, but in this instance I am.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Aug 11 - 12:56 PM

"you have every right to question people who don't understand that not paying taxes and leaving your filth for others to clean up...."
We all leave filth for others to clean up - and isn't not paying taxes what the rich do when they deposit their wealth in off-shore accounts.
The difference is that nobody has proposed that the above be exterminated, that they be forced to live without running water and sanitation and that the should have to live under th constant threat of being abused and assaulted by the fascist scum who have posted here.
Get a life and get some understanding for the lives of others.
And by the way, I spent thirty years in the company of these degenerate theives and felt more threatened walking down Wandsworth Hish Street late at night than I ever did on any one of the hundreds of Traveller sites I visited
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 28 Aug 11 - 01:09 PM

Why are you calling them "travellers" they are not travelling, this pack of Pikey scum on this site are illegals, run a couple of D8's over the site once darkness falls, should do the job.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Aug 11 - 01:26 PM

Well Mad Mick who used to live near me and drank in my local pub was a delight to know. Likewise Sprout, who used to turn up in his trotting sulky every so often. But I gather that other families were a problem at the Red Lion before they were barred, quite a long time ago. Most sets of people contain some good and some bad. But to judge the entire set on the basis of the bad ones is bigotry however you slice it.

Recent rigorous statistical studies have revealed that the rich differ from the rest of us - and not in a good way.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Will Fly
Date: 28 Aug 11 - 01:42 PM

Scum of the earth who I hope rot in hell only good point is, figures show their kids die young.

...this pack of Pikey scum on this site are illegals, run a couple of D8's over the site once darkness falls, should do the job.

Bluesman, from the tone of these remarks - and similar ones from you on other threads - you seem to be constantly consumed by blind hatred and to be completely devoid of the power of rational and reasoned argument.

Why is it necessary to say such things in Mudcat posts? Isn't it possible to debate the difficult questions that arise in society without resorting to such diatribes? If you disagree with a point of view - which you're perfectly entitled to do - why not express it with composure?

And why does this unreasoning rage always seem to appear largely in arguments between UK 'Catters and less so in discussions between our friends in the US?

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 28 Aug 11 - 02:10 PM

Because you don't get this vermin over there, they remain in areas they can steal,laugh at and shaft people like the drama queen from Liverpool who runs after them known as Fred. They crap all over the law and more or less do what they want. Hope that answers your question.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 28 Aug 11 - 02:14 PM

Yes Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 28 Aug 11 - 02:15 PM

Evolutionary IQ Liberal versus Conservative

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Grendel's Dad
Date: 28 Aug 11 - 02:23 PM

No travllers in the USA eh? Shows how much Bluesman knows. Take a look at this and you'll see differently http://www.smithsonianeducation.org/migrations/gyp/gypstart.html .

That's not counting the Oakies who were discriminated and hassled in the thirties in very muc the same way that travellers in Britain are today.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 28 Aug 11 - 02:27 PM

Sorry folks, I forgot my vow of silence where Bluesman aka Keith is concerned. Agus fagáimead siúd what a tosser. Him, I mean. Not me.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 28 Aug 11 - 03:12 PM

I am surprised that such racist and wicked statements have been allowed to remain on this thread. Can the moderator not delete them as offensive?

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Aug 11 - 03:25 PM

VT, that otherwise interesting study would appear to be undermind by the assertion that liberals control the media. Plainly both in the USA and the UK that is not so and the dominant media are very reactionary. Possibly the circle could be squared by allowing for the "countervailing values" of which teh writer speaks

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: GUEST,999
Date: 28 Aug 11 - 03:33 PM

"I am surprised that such racist and wicked statements have been allowed to remain on this thread. Can the moderator not delete them as offensive?"

That means that when you post something a prejudiced person disagrees with--well, how would you respond if your posts were deleted because he/she asked?

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: greg stephens
Date: 28 Aug 11 - 03:41 PM

Don't feed the trolls is always a good position in this sort of thread I think. There is a difference between arguments caused by actual differences of opinions, and those caused by malicious stirrers trying to fire people up. For that reason, a simple statement of one's position is probably best, rather than engaging in any kind of discussion with the usual pseudonymous suspects.
I will go and put on a CD of some traveller singers, or possibly a recording of the Oakley Evictions.

Subject: RE: BS: Dale Farm Traveller Evictions
From: greg stephens
Date: 28 Aug 11 - 03:42 PM

Sorry, Oakey Evictions(not Okies, something else altogether)