Trad Singing Tuition

Subject: Trad Singing Tuition?
From: GUEST,Ana
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 07:24 AM

Traditional style musicians - fiddle, flute etc - if wanting formal lessons will generally seek out a traditional player. Although some may want to diversify and expand their repertoire of techniques with a jazz or classical musician, this isn't (in my experience) the norm.
Singing however seems to be regarded differently where I come from (Southern Hemisphere). There seems an assumption that singers aren't musicians, and that technique is just acquired by imitation.
As a trad style singer of celtic music, I want to build on and develop my technique in this genre. There seems an assumption however that all singers just go to generic teachers, experienced in pop, jazz or classical styles. Although I'm sure that I could learn something from them (as I have before), I'm not sure I'll learn what I want.
Workshops at music festivals are likewise fine for imparting the basics, but for someone more experienced they are somewhat unchallenging.
I'm interested to know if there are such things as teachers of trad singing in the UK, and if so - what is taught; ornamentations? styles? timing? vocal flexibility?
Lookng forward to your thoughts
Ana

Subject: RE: Trad Singing Tuition
From: Dave Earl
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 07:37 AM

What is important is that you sing.

I think ANY voice coach will give guidance to "singing" techniques(diaphragm and breathing,projection etc).

If you can "sing" well what you choose to sing is a secondary consideration.

Good Luck.

Dave

Subject: RE: Trad Singing Tuition
From: PoppaGator
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 08:06 AM

I would think it most appropriate to learn traditional vocal technique, or to "be taught," in a traditional rather than a formalized academic manner. In other words, by spending time with, talking music with, and most importantly singing with, singers whose style you'd wish to emulate, who are more experienced or more deeply immersed in the tradition you admire, in a sort of apprentice-master relationship.

You seem to dismiss the idea that "technique is just acquired by imitation" [emphasis mine], but how else, ultimately, are you going to learn? Ideally, you would hope to be able to engage in some kind of dialogue with the singer(s) you would most like to imitate, and to have them evaluate the quality of your performance.

You are obviously not entirely satisfied by what you've been able to learn at workshops, but could you envision learning more from anyone who has conducted any such workshop that you've attended?

<> If so, seek them out, attend and seriously study their performances, and try to cultivate a relationship where they'll work with you in whatever manner they see fit, no matter how offhand and informal that may be;

<> If not, you may well have exhausted all avenues of possible advice and teaching available to you there Down Under. If none of the traditional singers who perform and conduct workshops at festivals in your area can help you progress any furhter than you have already managed on your own, I wouldn't imagine it likely that the teacher you seek even exists ~ one who combines knowledge of the folk tradition that interests you with the inclination and ability to provide the kind of formalized lessons you've experienced in your classical/jazz/pop voice lessons.

I'd hate to see you travel halfway around the globe only to be disappointed, but the prospects of finding someone in the UK who can provide the combination of skills you're seeking (traditionial authenticity plus educational acumen) might not be much more likely than back home. Of course, assuming that the tradition in which you're interested is British or Celtic, moving to the "homeland" should provide access to a greater number of master vocalists from whom you can continue learning informally, some of whom you can perhaps befriend, etc.

Subject: RE: Trad Singing Tuition
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 11:54 AM

I am ignorant of the concept and state of traditional singing in Australia.

However, as far as the States are concerned, thinking of traditional singing as a genre would be quite misleading.

All the traditional singings I am familiar with--my wife, Jean Ritchie, Sheila Kay Adams, Ginny Hawker, Maggie Hammons Parker, Bobby McMillon, Granny Riddle, etc., etc.--do it differently.

They are traditional singers, not because the sing a certain repertoire in a certain style, but because they are members of living musical traditions who learned in traditional ways. Mostly orally and aurally. Usually from other human beings but not infrequently from the radio and recordings.

Some rough broad generalizations can be made about "traditional" singers in the States. For example I never tire of pointing out that "some sing low, some sing higher." Jean Ritchie and Maggie Hammons Parker usually prefer to sing high while Sheila Kay Adams comes from a family of singers who tended to sing in the same range as their speaking voices.

But broad generalizations beyond this are pretty much useless.

Everybody phrases and breaths and ornaments differently.

In the states, if you wanted to learn "traditional" singing you'd go to Augusta or Swannanoa and take classes from people like Sheila Kay Adams.

You'd sit "knee to knee" and learn.

You'd probably find it worth the time and effort.

Russ (Permanent GUEST and traditional musician himself)

Subject: RE: Trad Singing Tuition
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 01:09 PM

The first thing that "generic" voice teachers and voice coaches try to do is to teach the aspiring singer how to sing in an easy and relaxed manner—in a way that will allow them to sing without developing vocal problems:   relaxing the throat and breathing in a natural manner that will allow them to support the voice and sing without strain.

I've written enough on other threads about this sort of thing that I feel like I'm written out on the subject (try the search box for "voice lessons" and such—lots there), so I'll just point out that trying to learn to sing merely by imitating singers you like can be fairly "iffy." You can also learn someone else's vocal problems be imitation.

A voice teacher, even a classical voice teacher, can't make you sound like an opera singer. All they can do is help you bring out the best that's there—and sing in a manner that won't eventually screw up your voice. Once you know how to sing easily and without tension or strain, then you can listen to the singers you admire and imitate their style of singing. Their style. But not necessarily whatever vocal technique they may be using. Those are two different things.

Pete Seeger always sang with a noticeable bit of tightness in his voice. And he lost his voice some years ago. The two facts are connected.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Trad Singing Tuition
From: Jim Lad
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 01:41 PM

Ana: While I am in favour of voice coaches for those who need them or just want to improve their technique, I'd have to go along with the first part of PoppaGator's statement.
You cannot teach Tradition. By taking up the song, you become part of the Tradition.
I can only speak for myself since my whole career has been spent as a Soloist with minimal skills on the musical instruments I play and just the occasional venture into groups who were temporarily, in need of a singer.
I take a song, listen to it a few times, discard the album and then practise the song until I know it. In time, my version will be at least, slightly different.

Andy M. Stewart would be the most obvious example here. My wife loves him. He lilts his way through Traditional songs to the point that it can become difficult to decipher the tune. That's his rendering of a Tradional song and is no less Traditional than Callum Kenedy's.
However, if you were to take that same song and sing it, note for note, the same as Mr. Stewart, I'd have to consider that to be your version of an Andy M. Stewart number.
I know what it is that you're looking for but in my opinion if you sing the Tradional song in a manner that comes naturally to you then you are singing in the Tradional manner.
No?

Subject: RE: Trad Singing Tuition
From: PoppaGator
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 02:17 PM

Good points by Don; the most important vocal education you can get from good "in-person" voice lessons transcends genre, and simply helps you find your most natural approach, the best manner by which to maximize your own potential. An experienced voice teacher (perhaps "vocal coach" would be a better term) can observe and listen, detect anything the student might be doing "wrong," and offer practical advice.

Ana seems to have already gotten some formal voice training ~ maybe enough to have internalized everything she needs to know about using her own voice without undue strain, maybe not.

What she seems to be looking for is guidance in perfecting her style, to sound as "traditional" or "authentic" as possible. I'm not sure there's any alternative to "imitation" of the singers she most admires; the problem is defining who and what to imitate, and where and how to achieve access.

I wouldn't expect classroom lessons to be available, at least not very helpful ones. For someone with the time and money, the ideal solution is probably "total immersion": Moving to some rural outpose in Ireland or Scotland where one's chosen tradition is alive, where oldtimers and their more serious younger friends sing away the hours in local public houses, and where one can hopefully, gradually, become part of the scene.

Subject: RE: Trad Singing Tuition
From: M.Ted
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 03:29 PM

Charlie Parker supposedly said something the effect that you should learn everything that you can, then forget it all, and just play--

Subject: RE: Trad Singing Tuition
From: GUEST,padgett
Date: 06 Jun 07 - 06:11 AM

There are notable song workshops in the traditional style run by such as Chris Coe and I believe Sandra Kerr is the voice person on the Trad English Degree course

Vic Gammon is also a song person

I feel that traditional style English performers have a variety of 'tricks' and techniques and the aspiring trad style singer should listen to the recordings and absorb the differing techniques

Walter Pardon, Fred Jordan, Arthur Howard, Frank Hinchliffe, Sam Larner, Harry Cox prime examples of 'trad style ' singers UK

These are the ones from who songs can be learnt along with their methodology of how they are putting the song words first but using their own style of singing to accentuate and deliver the feel of the song by standing in the shoes of the individuals concerned

I do feel that a fair voice and range can be very helpful

Accompanying song musically is a different issue and has its own set of criteria

Ray Padgett

Subject: RE: Trad Singing Tuition
From: GUEST,Ana
Date: 06 Jun 07 - 06:38 AM

Thanks a lot for your thoughts everyone: I really appreciate you all taking the time to respond - I'll continue my research with all the tips!
I would certainly love to enter the 'total emersion' school. For me, the voice is the 'purist' of instruments (and no - I'm not meaning to be provocative or impose that as any kind of absolute truth!). It is where my heart lies musically. There are so many shatteringly good instrumentalists around - fiddle, flute etc - I feel singers are less likely to be held in the same regard. Is there an assumption that singers somehow just have a 'gift' of voice, and don't work on this as their discipline? Just a thought.
The Trad English Course sounds just my cuppa tea - wish I was there... or they were here.... mmm wonder if they are into touring!

Subject: RE: Trad Singing Tuition
From: Marje
Date: 06 Jun 07 - 06:51 AM

I'd agree with what Don and Ray above have said, and that generic singing teaching can be useful for any singer. A good teacher will help you get control of your voice so that you can get it to do what you want. If you learn to sing in a very plain, unornamented way, you can then add any inflections or ornamentation you want, whereas if you start off with mannerisms copied from records etc (in any genre of music), you may find it difficult to drop them.

I'm not sure what a traditional "celtic" style would entail - really that term applies best to singing in the gaelic languages, which I don't imagine is what you're doing.

Irish singers, even singing in English, often use a lot of ornamentation, which you can learn from listening to performers and recordings, if that's what you're after. English and Scottish singing styles vary considerably, but there are certain common features that distinguish traditional from "classical" singing:
Avoid the use of vibrato and keep a nice steady tone
Keep the pitch in a comfortable range, rather than pushing the voice as high as possible
Keep to the accent and pronunciation that you've chosen - the choice of accent is a whole nother issue that I won't deal with here, but try to avoid distorting the vowels too much or spitting out the consonants as choir-boys do.
And above all, think all the time about the song and what it's conveying, rather than about the sound you're making. It's not about you, it's about the song. The words matter, the tune matters. That approach is what marks out the most of the good and respected traditional singers, and it's often somewhat lacking in both classically trained singing and bad folk singing.

Marje

Subject: RE: Trad Singing Tuition
From: Jim Lad
Date: 06 Jun 07 - 12:38 PM

Judging from all of the comments above, Ana, I'd have to say that no matter which style you choose to apply to your music, an appreciative audience awaits you.
Best of luck with it.
Regards
Jim

Subject: RE: Trad Singing Tuition
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 06 Jun 07 - 12:48 PM

"Keep to the accent and pronunciation that you've chosen - the choice of accent ... "

Hmm, I'm surprised Jim Lad let this go by. The advisability of "choosing" an accent is quite contentious - let's see if we'll get a Donnybrook out of it ...

Subject: RE: Trad Singing Tuition
From: PoppaGator
Date: 06 Jun 07 - 01:07 PM

A lot of thoughtful and even inspiring things have been said throughout this discussion.

Ana, the original poster, made quite a telling point a few hours earlier today, observing that singing is often taken less seriously than instrument-playing as a musical discipline, and even as a personal accomplishment. Sadly, this is sometimes true not only of insensitive observers, but even of those of us who ourselves sing and play. Playing quite obviously requires study and work and practice while singing, in comparison, "comes naturally" and depends, to an extent at least, upon having the "gift" of a reasonably listenable voice.

As singers, we really need to continually remind ourselves that working at the craft is essential and results in quality performance, and I think it's also important to maintain the sure knowledge and the attitude that the God-given or Nature-born "gift" of one's voice is not nearly so critical to our success as the determination to use that voice and the conscienciousness and taste we cultivate and bring to our efforts.

We all can think of famous and tremendously effective vocal performers, in most if not all of the different folk traditions we pursue, whose voices are by no means conventionally beautiful or pure, but who charm and engage us by their attention to the meanings and messages of their songs and by their ability to speak directly to our hearts. If this level of achievement is what we're striving for, the best "teachers" we're likely to find may not be available for regularly scheduled lessons. Indeed, some of them might not even be singers or musicians!

Marje brought up an interesting point about "ornamentation" versus plain, unadorned, earnest singing. It's absolutely true that "It's not about you, it's about the song [and that] the words matter, the tune matters." Our primary task is to understand the song and present it clearly with full consciousness of all its subtleties. However, certain of the traditions that many of us know and love do offer, and indeed to some extent require, the use of particular conventions of vocal "ornamentation." As Marje noted, this is certainly true of the Irish tradition(s), and I would add the additional observations that an entirely different, but essentially parallel, set of vocal embellishments is essential to the African-American vocal traditions upon which all Gospel, jazz, blues, and even pop music is based.

It's easy enough for a technically competant vocalist to employ a given set of these conventions, and to overdo it. It's another thing entirely to exhibit the taste and restraint required to put in just the right amount of trills and grace notes, and in just the right places, to enhance the meaning and feeling of a song without turning the performance into an exercise in egotism ~ "showing off." How does one learn where and how to draw the line? Not from x-number of once-a-week lessons, that's for sure; only from months and years of listening and learning, of performing and failing and gradually improving.

Subject: RE: Trad Singing Tuition
From: Jim Lad
Date: 06 Jun 07 - 01:21 PM

I didn't so much "Let it go" with regards to Marje's thoughts "Draw" from them.
Clearly, we are polar opposites when it comes to singing and no doubt, we both share the same love for Folk Music.
I find the subject interesting because I am currently delaying my next recording until such time as I think that my voice is whipped back into shape.
Vibrato & pushing the range just happen to be two very important ingredients in my style of singing.

Subject: RE: Trad Singing Tuition
From: Jim Lad
Date: 06 Jun 07 - 01:22 PM

I didn't so much "Let it go" with regards to Marje's thoughts as "Draw" from them.
Little typo back there.
Sorry!

Subject: RE: Trad Singing Tuition
From: Marje
Date: 06 Jun 07 - 01:30 PM

PoppaGator:I agree completely with what you say about ornamentation. What I meant (and maybe didn't make clear) was that I think it is best to learn your singing technique, initially, with as little ornamentation as possible. Then you can add, as a deliberate choice, whatever decoration you decide you want.

All styles (including classical) singing have their own tricks and mannerisms for adding expression and interest, but if you do these right from the start, all the time, you can get to depend on them and find it difficult to adapt your singing to a different style or deliver a song in a particular way. I didn't mean that traditional singing should or could be without such techniques.

Marje

Subject: RE: Trad Singing Tuition
From: PoppaGator
Date: 06 Jun 07 - 02:00 PM

Oh yeah, Marje, I think we more-or-less understand each other, maybe just express ourselves a bit differently.

Of course, many singers start out ~ naively ~ by overdoing the fancy stuff, and only later learn to be more subtle. Those among them who do eventually wise up and get better, however, can certainly become just as competant and tasteful as are those who follow the regimen you (quite understandably and correctly) recommend, to start with a plain and simple approach and only gradually add emphasis here and there.

It often is the obvious stylizations that draw a listener to a particular genre, so it should be understandable that some beginning performers might tend to overdo things at first. Also, of course, not all of them will ever learn to become more refined. But some will probably prove to be capable of cultivating a growing understanding and to eventually become as good as they can be.

Subject: RE: Trad Singing Tuition
From: Jim Lad
Date: 06 Jun 07 - 02:57 PM

You were right.
Good Call, Meself:
I'm not biting, though.
Catch you on another thread, Bud.
Cheers!
Jim

Subject: RE: Trad Singing Tuition
From: r.padgett
Date: 06 Jun 07 - 03:10 PM

Perhaps it should be said that singing cannot really be taught but it is down to each singer to let his/her own voice evolve using their own voice, and what they are comfortable with

The singing style may start off of being a 'mimic' of the source singer and there are certainly singers who sing material where it is pretty clear where they got the song from as the source singers intonation is clearly there

The singer should let his/her own voice come through and the style should evolve, to my mind influenced by listening and absorbing but using all the techniques which the singer can or feels apt

This also brings into being the singing of material which is really derived from the singer's own area

A bit McColl school I suppose but clearly English singers should not sing Scottish songs or Irish songs which are basically out of area in a pseudo accent (dont do as I do but as I say!) ideally

Ray

Subject: RE: Trad Singing Tuition
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 06 Jun 07 - 03:11 PM

I am pretty dubious about voice coaches in toto - by and large for them the only vocal presentation is opera, and they talk a lot of mumbo-jumbo about "columns of air (huh? how much of a ceiling will that hold up?) and "sing from the stomach" (huh? 6 pints of lager and a vindaloo coming right back atcher) and "don't sing through the nose" (huh? hold your nose. now you can't sing through it, canyer? how does that sound?) Oh, yeah, and grip your hands under your bosom dear and stand up straight and sound your "t"s.

Like guitar teachers, how many will help you to do what YOU want to do, not what THEY want you to do?

Even worse, IMHO is trying to be someone else. Don't copy mannerisms at all.

Listen to yourself (don't be put off, we all hate our own voices recorded) and give what you can to the song. If you need to rest your throat the next day, do so.

Oh, and always ignore advice, particuarly from people who are worse than you. If you are singing already, that's about 99% of the world. Who am I, or who is anyone else, to tell you what to do?

Subject: RE: Trad Singing Tuition
From: Jim Lad
Date: 06 Jun 07 - 03:41 PM

I think what my learned friend has so eloquently said is that for all of its faults, the modern methods make nicer music.
I agree, Tim.
Cheers!
Jim

Subject: RE: Trad Singing Tuition
From: Rapparee
Date: 06 Jun 07 - 03:45 PM

You might pay tuition to learn trad, but for blues ya gotta pay dues.

Subject: RE: Trad Singing Tuition
From: Jim Lad
Date: 06 Jun 07 - 03:45 PM

Now how did that happen?
Sorry guys!
Wrong thread.

Subject: RE: Trad Singing Tuition
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 06 Jun 07 - 03:57 PM

Indeed! (Harumph) ... yes, well, now where were we?

Subject: RE: Trad Singing Tuition
From: Jim Lad
Date: 06 Jun 07 - 04:23 PM

Same way as Dick wandered into the wrong thread the other day, I'm afraid.
Where were we?
I was saying "You're probably right." for the second time in one week.

Subject: RE: Trad Singing Tuition
From: PoppaGator
Date: 06 Jun 07 - 05:11 PM

Excellent quip, Rapaire!

I'm sure every one of the Americans among us had to double-take at the word "tuition" in this thread title.

I've absorbed enough Brit-isms here at Mudcat to realize that this word can simply mean "teaching" or "training" across the pond and, apparently, down under as well.

In the US, however, the exclusive meaning of the word "tuition" is the fee paid for schooling.

Subject: RE: Trad Singing Tuition
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 06 Jun 07 - 05:18 PM

Good heavens. Over here that is "Tuition Fee". I like to think I can at least understand American (I've lawyered against enough from California and New York over the years) but that one escaped me.

Subject: RE: Trad Singing Tuition
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Jun 07 - 05:56 PM

Beware! Lengthy screed about lessons and accents (it's a quiet day at the skunk works).

I guess I was lucky in the voice and guitar teachers I had early on. My first voice teacher was Edna Bianchi, a retired operatic soprano and my second, George Hotchkiss Street, had been a singer (bass-baritone, more like my own voice) and choir director. Neither of them tried to push me into a particular repertoire or style. They both had me doing a lot of vocalizing with scales, arpeggios, and other exercises, teaching me breath-control and getting me to relax my throat and let my voice come out. They both asked me what sort of songs I wanted to sing, and that's what we worked with. Their focus was not on how I should sing the songs as far as style was concerned (they both said that I probably knew that better than they did), they focused on voice production, such as breathing, relaxed throat, and projection. Both were sticklers for clear diction and phrasing. Vocal technique, not style. They managed to turn my "frog in a rain barrel" into a halfway decent sounding singing voice. Not particularly operatic, but at least fairly listenable (well, anyway, not too many people get up and make for the door when I start to sing).

Mr. Street had me bring my guitar to the lessons and accompany myself while I was singing. He would often stop me in mid-song and ask, "Okay, now what, exactly, does that last line mean? The one that starts—" and then he'd quote the first word or two of the line. What he was pointing out to me was that I hadn't really paid attention to what the line meant. I had just been singing it by rote, without really understanding what the heck I was really singing about. Very valuable lesson!

My first genuine guitar lessons were from Walt Robertson (two Folkways records, and he had a local television show at the time). Chords, strumming and picking patterns, and lots of songs. After about six months, he said he had taught me about all the guitar he could, and suggested a classic guitar teacher. Over several years I took classic guitar lessons from three different teachers, and took four months of flamenco lessons from one of the guitarists who was playing at the Spanish Village during the 1962 Seattle World's Fair. I picked up folk techniques by watching, listening, and trying things out. Still at it. And with the classic, I'm no Segovia, but if I've taken my vitamins and have a good tail-wind, I can manage to play a few fairly impressive concert pieces.

How do I apply that to folk song accompaniment? I don't, all that much. I generally keep my accompaniments pretty simple and straightforward. But on a few songs, where I think it might be appropriate, I pull out the stops and try to handle the guitar as if it were a lute (Greensleeves, The Three Ravens, a few others).

None of the music teachers I took private lessons from tried to push me into doing things I didn't want to do or force styles on me that I didn't think were appropriate for the kind of songs I chose to do.

If a teacher insists on pushing you in a direction you don't want to go, find another teacher.

Accents and dialects:   There have been a number of threads and a lot of comments about using accents and dialects that aren't part of your own ethnic background.   Lots of people seem to feel that it's "phony." But unless you are going to limit the songs you do to one category (placing an arbitrary limit on yourself, which I, personally, am not about to do), one can hardly avoid it. I do a fair number of Scottish songs and ballads (even though I was born in Los Angeles and have never been to Scotland, I feel that with a name like Firth, and considering that my great-grandfather came from Scotland, I can claim some rights in the matter), and, if I do say so myself, I am pretty good at imitating accents and dialects of various kinds.

I challenge anyone to sing songs like McPherson's Lament or Bonnie Dundee without adopting a Scottish accent. And I'd say that singing something like The Braes of Killiecrankie would be impossible to do in American English. And how, exactly, is one to sing "Oh, me name is Dick Darby, I'm a cobbler. . . ." without a touch of the Irish?

Some people can't do accents and dialects for sour apples, and if you can't, you probably shouldn't. But if you can, then have at it, say I!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Trad Singing Tuition
From: Jim Lad
Date: 06 Jun 07 - 06:10 PM

Thanks for the warning Don. I'll read it after I eat.