BS: Nobody likes a Tory

Subject: RE: BS: Nobody likes a Tory
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 20 Oct 11 - 03:28 PM

Actually I think that the chart is spot on. Note how the Labour and Conservative parties are both in the top right quadrant i.e. right wing/authoritarian - with Labour being MORE authoritarian than the Conservatives. I think that all Labour Party supporters should reflect on this - if they're able to reflect on anything - which I seriously doubt. They're too busy being sanctimonious and self-righteous - whilst, simultaneously, slavishly toeing the party line set by their right wing leaders.

The drift to the right by all parties, over the last few years, should worry us all.

Subject: RE: BS: Nobody likes a Tory
From: GUEST,cujimmy
Date: 20 Oct 11 - 04:18 PM

Some Torys are nice people - ive met both of them

Subject: RE: BS: Nobody likes a Tory
From: BTNG
Date: 20 Oct 11 - 06:12 PM

"They're too busy being sanctimonious and self-righteous"

now that sounds familiar...oh right, some here on Mudcat

Subject: RE: BS: Nobody likes a Tory
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Oct 11 - 08:07 PM

Enrich the rich? Handsome is as handsome does.

Who opposes the 50% tax rate?

Do you know where the Parliament Acts came from?

Who wanted to remove estate duty/inheritance tax?

Subject: RE: BS: Nobody likes a Tory
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Oct 11 - 08:19 PM

No, that table is not a fair representation of things. Broadly, conservatives believe that the lower orders should do as they are told, for the benefit of those in control. Broadly, labour believes that all, not just some, should be controlled by law for the benefit of society.

Subject: RE: BS: Nobody likes a Tory
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 20 Oct 11 - 09:00 PM

Disagree Richard. the Labour party has produced enlightened souls like Sydney Silverman - without whom we would be prepaing execution chambers like the Yanks.

Without Silverman we should have executed the Birmingham 6. Churchill said, grass grows over a battlefield, but not a scaffold. But he didn't do anything to improve the situation.

There has always been a patrician element in the Labour party based on respect for intellect.

The tories are rather embarassed by intellectuals - mainly cos theirs have really buggered them up - like keith Joseph, and his national curriculum - designed after never visiting a state school.

Poor old Thatch. very clever girl. spent eleven years posing as an idiot to please the silly hat brigade,

Subject: RE: BS: Nobody likes a Tory
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 21 Oct 11 - 10:58 AM

""Some Torys are nice people - ive met both of them""

I can't remember us ever meeting Cujimmy. Where was that then?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Nobody likes a Tory
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 21 Oct 11 - 11:11 AM

""Broadly, labour believes that all, not just some, should be controlled by law for the benefit of society.""

Broadly bollocks, and totalitarian to boot, and the last time we heard that crap, it was from Josef Stalin. The last potential leader of the Labour Party, who believed in British style Socialism was John Smith, and he never got to try it out.

Since then Labour politicians have broadly believed in controlling everybody for the benefit of Labour politicians, and their best interests lay in pursuing a pseudo Tory course, and a bloody poor and ineffectual imitation at that.

Ed Milliband may have some pretensions to espouse the benefit of Society, but he is IMO an empty vessel, in a clay too thick to resonate at all well. He won't last, because they chose the wrong brother.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Nobody likes a Tory
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 21 Oct 11 - 11:47 AM

"Let them eat cake" Good God, Dickie this all sounds like we are living in the 17th century.

So Dickie, why not tell us what this country needs and where the money will come from to pay for it ????

All well and good your daily dose of slagging the current government,Labour made a horlicks out of it. So tell us what we need to do. No point in these daily horror stories you call upon in the media about somebody's granny getting fucked out of a care care home, or a single mother with five children who is murdered with piles and the ass is cut off her.

Subject: RE: BS: Nobody likes a Tory
From: Musket
Date: 21 Oct 11 - 11:50 AM

At the risk of sounding like a stuck record...

What is the difference really?

Bridge reckons there are idealogical differences, although I recognise neither the "know your place" Tory bit nor indeed the rather sinister "controlled by law for the benefit of society" Labour bit.   Although being a solicitor of sorts, that means Bridge gets to tell us all what to do. Now we get to the crux of the matter....

But judging late 20th and 21st century actions, what is the difference? if you go further back, Tories are for the union of Great Britain at any cost and Labour are about shafting anybody who doesn't get their hands dirty for a living. Neither stereotype describes either party nor indeed either present day creed.

Out of interest, New Labour don't control by law, they control by regulation which is not exactly the same thing. To regulate is to allow due diligence and self determination with minimum expectations. That is the Labour way, and working these days as a regulator, I like the principle. As the present government seem to like it too, it doesn't say much for the "lower orders doing as they are told" bit. Who are the lower orders Richard? I'm not and neither are any of my friends. And some of them (shock horror) are poor by the standards of a patronising "professional."

Subject: RE: BS: Nobody likes a Tory
From: BTNG
Date: 21 Oct 11 - 11:52 AM

'e gets worse and worse don't 'e muvver, what's to be done, what's to be done, I say. put 'im out of 'is misery, you say? Good idea, but you can be taken away to the nick for doin' fings like that....

Subject: RE: BS: Nobody likes a Tory
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 21 Oct 11 - 12:00 PM

I'm a lower order.

Subject: RE: BS: Nobody likes a Tory
From: BTNG
Date: 21 Oct 11 - 12:36 PM

oim proud to be a member of the lower orders, oi 'ave a noice embossed card from the vicar say so too

Subject: RE: BS: Nobody likes a Tory
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 21 Oct 11 - 02:20 PM

Lower paid staff had pay rises? Not in the council I work for. At least not for the last 3 years.   My council opted out of the cost of living pay for employees earning under £21,000. The performance pay contract for each employee goes through panel to decide if you fully met or exceeded objectives. Fully met gets you no increase in pay. Exceeds does. Guess what level was awarded fully met and what level received exceeds. Naturally those highest up in the organisation got their Exceeds on the backs of the staff who actually do the work.
And our councillors increased their pay last year, just before they approved the plan to dismantle as much non-statutory service as they can. But then it is almost wholly conservative council.
I should have gone out to the private sector from the start. I would have made more money. So much for wanting to be involved in meaningful work in public services. I am getting nothing but grief for it now and soon they will raid my gold plated pension, all £2450 of it, if I live long enough to be able to afford to retire.

Subject: RE: BS: Nobody likes a Tory
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 21 Oct 11 - 07:08 PM

We live in a world where there are (as there should be) laws. The conservatives always leave the rich with a way out. Labour (until B. Liar and the willowy Mandelbaum) at least tried to avoid that sort of inequality. And rightly so. The chants of "Stalin" are simply a matter of ignorance about the necessity for the rule of law to apply in a civilised society. Constitutional law 101.

But for tonight's "cream of the scum" award, again going to the conservatives (and not to the unfortunate claimants)


http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2011/oct/21/disability-groups-further-benefit-cuts

Subject: RE: BS: Nobody likes a Tory
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 21 Oct 11 - 07:21 PM

"This week one startling piece of evidence stands out. Economist Cormac Hollingsworth, a former managing director at Kleinwort Benson, ... produced these figures: the extra £16bn in cuts imposed by Osborne's plan A have so chilled growth and employment that the deficit will only be cut by £3bn. All this suffering imposed on millions of lives has been for nothing much. For every £4 extra cut in spending, only 75p is wiped off the deficit, due to rising social security costs and falling tax receipts. This textbook proof of Keynes' "paradox of thrift" shows how during a depression the more you cut, the worse things get."

Told you so.

Subject: RE: BS: Nobody likes a Tory
From: BTNG
Date: 21 Oct 11 - 08:51 PM

The private sector in many cases pays far more, money, but as odd as it may seem to some (naming no names) it's not always all about money, maybe you truly enjoy what you do and like the people you work with....just thought.

Subject: RE: BS: Nobody likes a Tory
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 22 Oct 11 - 04:28 AM

We know all this Dickie, you tell us daily. So what should the government do to get us out of this Labour mess ?

Subject: RE: BS: Nobody likes a Tory
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 22 Oct 11 - 12:55 PM

I do enjoy what I do and like the people I work with. That's a perk. More important to me, is supporting people who are providing a public service. The problem is I can't support myself on the pay if it does not rise with inflation and I will never be able to retire, because I won't be able to afford it.

I put in more than 37 hours a week, often up to 41 a week. I really don't mind it. There are others who put in more hours at less attractive work and are paid less. Carers, refuse workers, cleaners, etc. Old, young, and middle aged, we are all hurting. Yet Chief Execs can pay themselves over £250,000 and surround themselves with a coterie of staff all paid over £150,000 and still get bonuses because we underlings have fulfilled our contracts or the managers get disgusting pay offs when they fuck up. The director and corporate level of local authorities is rotten and overrun with the self- serving. The same people who are dismantling public services and selling them to the lowest bidder, are probably lining their stock portfolios with these new companies that sell the service back to the council.

We have broken contract with BT and taken up with IBM at a loss for IT services which have since been abysmal. We sold council owned care homes and services to a private company who botched it so bad (dying patients) we had to bring it all back in house. Yet they are selling it again. I won't go into the plans for schools. We have outsourced highways and brought it back in and tendered out so many times I can't count. Social services and libraries being restructured making them fit to outsource. The council can and will make statutory provision through private companies wherever it can. Somebody is making some money out of this.

Should private companies profit from your taxes?

Subject: RE: BS: Nobody likes a Tory
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 Oct 11 - 08:17 PM

Excuse me Bluesman. It was the tories who gave up on us. Decided it just too difficult to figure out a way to keep our mining and heavy engineering, ship building, motorbike, most of the car, most of the steel, most of the manufacturing industries going. Massive mega unemployment. Scenes of Dickensian poverty. Beggars on the street and an endemic hard drug problem.

You remember - we were going to have the economy revived in a services led revival. The only part of the economy that has thrived has been the black economy - criminal enterprises - sometimes white collar, sometimes various mafias moving in on England like an uncut diamond. Even our major institutions seem to owned by international ruffians football team, banks , the bloody lot!

Every government (tory and Labour) since Thatcher has simply been sticking their fingers in the dike to try and mitigate the scale of the disaster, she and the selfish bastards voting for her brought about.

Labour mess, my arse!

Subject: RE: BS: Nobody likes a Tory
From: BTNG
Date: 22 Oct 11 - 09:16 PM

I don't work for the private sector, though if I did, I would twice, perhaps three times what I'm earning now, but the offset is, I like the people I work with and and enjoy my work. Oh, and no, the private sector should now nor ever profit from our taxes. Big business, banks etc, have long been a part of the education system here, I can remember when the first automatic banking machine was installed on a university campus, folk said that it would be all down hill from there, depending your point of view it is all downhill. the same uni's food service are, by and large, run by fast food outlets, McDonalds etc....

Subject: RE: BS: Nobody likes a Tory
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 Oct 11 - 09:30 PM

They said that about the condom machine at our college.

Subject: RE: BS: Nobody likes a Tory
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 Oct 11 - 09:42 PM

I used to love coming home from the pub and seeing Brian Clough's teams beat everyone else on Match of the Day. And watch the Test Match, on the Beeb with sensible comments between the overs instead of adverts.

Before that bugger sold it all to Murdoch. That was the trouble that bugger with her shopping basket, she had no sense of what was important. Everything ordinary people liked, it had no value. Only a price, she could flog it off for.

Subject: RE: BS: Nobody likes a Tory
From: Musket
Date: 23 Oct 11 - 11:47 AM

Been quiet in this debate for a while, thought I had said all I wanted to.

Just can't help pointing out something though.. Fully agree that there are not enough safeguards in the new Health Act and I fundamentally disagree with the GP knows best bit, as successive governments have tried to engage with them and got their fingers burnt.

However... to say this government is responsible for the £20 Billion savings (or cuts depending on your spin) is disingenuous to say the least. The savings, known in NHS circles as QUIPP (look it up if you must know) was announced by Andy Burnham about a year before the election.

One of the huge issues The NHS has with the new Act is that the £20 Billion savings are even less easy to achieve now the whole infrastructure is in turmoil. (I don't know why all the fuss about the new Act, all the consultation etc. They have been dismantling to the stage of being irreversible since well before the Lords passed it art week. ABout a year ago was the point of no return.

Not Tories, just politicians.

Subject: RE: BS: Nobody likes a Tory
From: BTNG
Date: 23 Oct 11 - 01:21 PM

and there was Grandstand with David Coleman

Subject: RE: BS: Nobody likes a Tory
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 23 Oct 11 - 03:14 PM

Hang on! Wait for it!

(whingeing voice) It wasn't really the tories fault......

They take responsibility for NOTHING! Except the economy was in wonderful shape.....yeh and the schools hadn't had a lick of paint in years, no one had a job, and Rupert sodding Murdoch owned everything that wasn't screwed down, and several things that were....

Subject: RE: BS: Nobody likes a Tory
From: BTNG
Date: 23 Oct 11 - 03:24 PM

Murdoch owned the screws.....

Subject: RE: BS: Nobody likes a Tory
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Oct 11 - 05:49 AM

Meanwhile, today, in two new slaps in the face to millions, we learn that the government has been hiding plans to pass the buck on the NHS to a quango, apparently so that ministers will not have to face the music when things go wrong, and that Cameron plans to bring back Lord Young, the 79 year old peer who said only a year ago: -

"Recession, what recession?" and

"You've never had it so good".

And this nincompoop is to advise on business? You MUST be joking. Except that not one bit of it is funny.

Subject: RE: BS: Nobody likes a Tory
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Oct 11 - 07:38 AM

That's a great title! Lord Young! Lord Sexy! Marquess Longhampton....

Subject: RE: BS: Nobody likes a Tory
From: Musket
Date: 24 Oct 11 - 10:01 AM

I don't like the idea of Ministers not being day to day accountable for The NHS, even if I do like the idea of less political short term interference for political rather than patient benefits.

But what quango has the government been hiding?

The National commissioning board has been set up in shadow for over a year, Sir David Nicholson was appointed chief executive about a year ago, the chairman was announced (after newspaper adverts inviting candidates to interview) last month and the whole of The NHS has been reorganising to accommodate it since the health bill was announced as a white paper.

If they have been hiding it, they made a crap job of it because every newspaper has been reporting on the implications of it since it started to take shape.

Anyway, I would have thought Bridge would be comfortable with it. After all, David Nicholson was a member of The British Communist Party many years ago.

This government can be questioned on enough facts without making up tales about them....

Subject: RE: BS: Nobody likes a Tory
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 24 Oct 11 - 10:06 AM

""Excuse me Bluesman. It was the tories who gave up on us. Decided it just too difficult to figure out a way to keep our mining and heavy engineering, ship building, motorbike, most of the car, most of the steel, most of the manufacturing industries going. Massive mega unemployment. Scenes of Dickensian poverty. Beggars on the street and an endemic hard drug problem.""

God almighty Al.....Where do you get your history from?

The motorbike industry invested nothing in innovation and was still selling outdated machines based on pre war technology well into the mid sixties, when Honda decided to give the buying public a machine that was twentieth century. That wasn't the fault of any government. It was entirely down to the owners of the companies.

Triumph decided that bikers could just put up with having their boots sprayed with hot oil from rocker boxes (I know 'cos I rode one for five years. BSA made no real attempt to move on from the fifties, and relied on the "Gold Star" reputation. Norton produced a new machine which used up a set of big ends in 3000 - 6000 miles.

They gave the Japanese the industry.

As to the other stuff, we've been here before. British heavy industry autodestructed on the watch of Harold Wilson, in a fury of strikes, impossible pay claims and civil disobedience, which continued through the reign of the gutless Jim Callaghan. In 1979, what was left was well past saving without massive changes that the work force wouldn't accept. End of story.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Nobody likes a Tory
From: BTNG
Date: 24 Oct 11 - 10:17 AM

Funny...I never had a problem with my '69 BSA A65 Lightning.
End of story

Subject: RE: BS: Nobody likes a Tory
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 24 Oct 11 - 10:27 AM

""I used to love coming home from the pub and seeing Brian Clough's teams beat everyone else on Match of the Day. And watch the Test Match, on the Beeb with sensible comments between the overs instead of adverts.

Before that bugger sold it all to Murdoch. That was the trouble that bugger with her shopping basket, she had no sense of what was important. Everything ordinary people liked, it had no value. Only a price, she could flog it off for. ""

Enlighten us Al.

Just when did that "bugger" take control of the FA, the ICC, F1 management etc, so that she could sell them to Murdoch.

An interesting, if somewhat hysterical, theory, but I believe she was long gone when we lost test matches and half of F1, and I don't think she was ever on the board of the Football Association.

I too am incensed by the acquisition by Murdoch of what should be free-to-air, but I tend to target my anger at those who could actually have stopped it happening, and "that bugger" wasn't one of them.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Nobody likes a Tory
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Oct 11 - 10:30 AM

'David Nicholson was a member of The British Communist Party many years ago.'

Back in those days Ian, Woodrow Wyatt was a left winger.

Didn't learn my history, Don - had the misfortune to live and work through it.

Would agree that management gave the industries away. And which party is the party of the bosses. I worked for British Leyland and never saw, an ununcooperative worker - but I saw dozens of shit management decisions.

As The Spycatcher debacle implied, the tory grandees were in power even when they weren't in office. Callaghan and Wilson did some good stuff. Comprehensive education as a stated aim. The Open University. Index linked benefits (soon done away withby her holiness, the tory saint).

But since Suez we've been so far up the USA's bum that even Wilson's mild disgreement over Vietnam was not tolerated by our Lords and Masters. Wilson was the last PM to have the balls to stand up to USA foreign policy - possibly the last of the 1945 patriots.
The US kicked the shit out of our economy for having such temerity and independence of spirit.

Subject: RE: BS: Nobody likes a Tory
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 24 Oct 11 - 10:47 AM

""Funny...I never had a problem with my '69 BSA A65 Lightning.""

Hardly qualifies as mid sixties BTNG, and another case of too little, too late.

By that time the advantages of Honda bikes were known, and in 1965 they were the largest producer of motorcycles in the world

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Nobody likes a Tory
From: BTNG
Date: 24 Oct 11 - 10:58 AM

mid sixties, late sixties, fact is I never had a problem with it...mind you I never have had a problem with Honda or any other Japanese bike either

Subject: RE: BS: Nobody likes a Tory
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 24 Oct 11 - 11:00 AM

""I worked for British Leyland and never saw, an ununcooperative worker - but I saw dozens of shit management decisions.""

How amusing!...........NOT!

You never saw an uncooperative worker in the company that bid fair to lose the world's largest number of days of production to lightning strikes.

And it was all due to those nasty old bosses wanting to employ one man to handle both nut and bolt, thereby putting one hardworking (though unnecessary and expensive) nut or bolt handler out of work.

A bit of tongue in cheek poetic licence there, but you know damn well that strikes were regularly called on equally nonsensical grounds.

And I wouldn't call striking for 40% pay increases in a firm that was always struggling to survive all that terribly cooperative either.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Nobody likes a Tory
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Oct 11 - 11:02 AM

Wake up and smell the coffee Don. You think she got all that support for free! Like Blair after she paid the danegeld, saw Richard Attenboroughs company off. Course she did, and so did Major after her. Thus Murdoch was dancing round saying "WE did it" after the 1992 election. And he did it - all right. Even got that idiot Kinnock on film falling in the sea. He probably wrote all his stupid verbose speeches for him.....

My heart used to sink every morning when the today programme came on and there was Neil, " Would the Prime Minister agree that her policy is sexualised, sausalicious, and sacre de cristo...."

You can't fool me he thought up all that shit himself - no it was Murdoch and Thatcher. Satan and the Cacodemon.

Subject: RE: BS: Nobody likes a Tory
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 24 Oct 11 - 11:09 AM

""This government can be questioned on enough facts without making up tales about them....""

Now now Ian.

Richard Bridge is the Tweedledee (or is it Tweedledumb) of the legal eagles, and "Facts are whatever he wants them to be".

His stock in trade is using words to twist facts to his professional advantage, and the advantage of his client, innocent or guilty.

It must be a hard habit to break when off duty.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Nobody likes a Tory
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 24 Oct 11 - 11:13 AM

Al, I suppose you can explain how she sold test matches to Murdoch when New Labour were in power, and she wasn't connected with the ICC?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Nobody likes a Tory
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Oct 11 - 11:40 AM

She and the interests she represents are NEVER out of power.

Grasp this and you have you are beginning to undertand the situation. The democracy is purely cosmetic. The Spycatcher case made it very clear that the intelligence services in this country call the shots.

So what does Blair do when he gets elected after all those years of rule by right wing ideologues. Does he clean out the Augean stables of the MI5 and MI6? Does he reform a voting system that has returned a party that has vandalised our society?

Not a bit of it. Meet the new boss.....

Subject: RE: BS: Nobody likes a Tory
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Oct 11 - 03:30 AM

Remember the tax amnesty on tax fraud money hidden by rich bastards in Switzerland? The one that was going to get £7 bn (out of estimated £ 20 bn owed) back for the UK tax net. Looks like it isn't working, the rich bastards get off scot free and the UK gets nothing.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2011/oct/25/swiss-tax-deal-uk


Told you so at the time.

Subject: RE: BS: Nobody likes a Tory
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Oct 11 - 03:32 AM

Remember the riots that were caused by gangs and foreigners, not poverty?

Or so evil tory bigots said. They were wrong. The truth here.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/official-cabinet-ministers-wrong-about-cause-of-riots-2375515.html

Subject: RE: BS: Nobody likes a Tory
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Oct 11 - 03:36 AM

The rich can still get educations.

Woe betide teh poor.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-15430189

Subject: RE: BS: Nobody likes a Tory
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Oct 11 - 03:39 AM

Bankers trouser bonusses - society pays, warns Bank of England expert

Subject: RE: BS: Nobody likes a Tory
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Oct 11 - 03:45 AM

Government fails to supervise outsourced police functions

Subject: RE: BS: Nobody likes a Tory
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Oct 11 - 03:49 AM

International capitalism wants 16 hr days, poor pay, and penalties for unions

Subject: RE: BS: Nobody likes a Tory
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Oct 11 - 03:52 AM

Open justice threatened by CIA lobbying

Subject: RE: BS: Nobody likes a Tory
From: Musket
Date: 25 Oct 11 - 03:56 AM

Never knew you were an aficionado of The Voice of Reason Al!

Woodrow Wyatt, that takes me back.

It takes me back to when I was young, impressionable and all the evils of the world could be thrown at the door of a target. Th*tcher was in power, so the target wasn't too hard to find. The Voice of Reason was in the same newspaper that gave most football coverage so no problems picking up a copy at work and allowing me to fume in my sanctimonious way. Oh, and what with Red Wedge being popular, I had no problems getting gigs at political events, singing songs of oppression and class warfare.

All good stuff.

Till my balls dropped.

Subject: RE: BS: Nobody likes a Tory
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Oct 11 - 05:05 AM

200