uk folk club scene

Subject: uk folk club scene
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Jun 26 - 03:55 AM

Suggestions for constructive criticism, as to how the uk folk club scene can be improved.
I am of the opinion that a good way to promote music is to state clearly musical policy,AND WHAT PEOPLE SHOULD EXPECT if for example it is a blues club, promote it as such, if it is an Acoustic music club, try to appeal to those people, if it is a Tradtional and contemporary style folk club promote it in that way.
I am intersted whether other people think this is a bad or good idea and why.
I base my opinion on the belief that most people have particular prefernces style wise and that it is a minority that like all kinds of acoustic music.
I know for example that if i see a Beethoven classical concert advertised,I would be dissatisfied if i was substitued with aoasis tribute band, but would be happy enough if the concert had for some good reason be changed to a Mozart evening.
My experience has been that it is impossible to please everyone

Subject: RE: uk folk club scene
From: GUEST,Joe G
Date: 02 Jun 26 - 05:08 AM

My first club was Hartlepool Folk Club in the late 70's. They had a very eclectic booking policy and range of floor singers. The first artist I saw was Johnny Handley and after that I saw blues musicians, traditional singers, contemporary singer songwriters, skiffle, music hall and possibly even some folk rock at the club.

It was that very eclecticism that drew me into the folk and acoustic scene and I suspect many people feel the same about clubs. Most people have wide enough tastes to appreciate all under the broad umbrella of folk. I think though that the word folk might be better changed to acoustic

Subject: RE: uk folk club scene
From: Sol
Date: 02 Jun 26 - 06:38 AM

The few local clubs that I frequent generally have an 'anything goes' policy as long as it's acoustic based. Okay, there are some genres I'm not too enthusiastic about however, I think it's healthy to be exposed to music you would not listen to by choice. As a result, I've found a few songs I really like that would have normally been off my radar.
So, 'vive la difference' I say.

Subject: RE: uk folk club scene
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Jun 26 - 06:44 AM

ok
but if i was running a blues club i would target jazzers as well as blues fans, Before i Targetted TRAD FOLK CLUBS
I played Hartlepool folk club a good many times and I think you mean Johnny Handle, my impression was at that time they booked trad performers and some song writers.
Washington folk club,TO MY RECOLEECTION had a broader policy.
if you run an acoustic music club it makes sense to call it an acoustic music club you are saying our policy is to book anything as long as its acoustic. it is about clearly aiming a policy at certain groups

Subject: RE: uk folk club scene
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Jun 26 - 08:03 AM

Sol, but is it the best way to promote the club to get more people

Subject: RE: uk folk club scene
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Jun 26 - 08:05 AM

I run a festival its maritime and folk, my regular attendees would not return if i booked country and irish

Subject: RE: uk folk club scene
From: r.padgett
Date: 02 Jun 26 - 09:15 AM

Fragmentation and differing strands trad, singer songwriter, popular music, shanty etc

Folk club audiences are a funny bunch and singaround style with occasional guests tend to put people off and of course frequency and numbers of audience to actual performers matters, a lot

I am currently only traddy in a room full of brilliant acoustic guitar players who seem to want to play together and harmonies musically ~ I sing folk and the stories are for me the thing ~ they put up with me so far!

Now I do not take tunes and reading music for granted but that int
me
Entertaining, telling song stories and performance is fundamental ~ people understand English better than they like tunes? maybe


Ray

Subject: RE: uk folk club scene
From: GUEST,Keith Price
Date: 02 Jun 26 - 10:08 AM

I think a good number of folk clubs would be better described as social clubs.A place to meet friends.
The style of music doesn't seem to be of great concern. If it's performed well, whatever it is,it's appreciated.
There's nothing wrong with that, that's what happened in Parochial clubs, Workingman's clubs and political clubs up and down the country.
Sadly the majority of them have disappeared.
I agree with Dick. It's not reasonable to expect them to be all things to all people, if the main interest is music.
Can you imagine if they did this with 'Sport,' find out when you get to the stadium, if it's Football, Cricket or Dressage.

Subject: RE: uk folk club scene
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 02 Jun 26 - 10:08 AM

The problem with trying to set a clear musical policy is that there is a danger of getting into the "what is folk" argument. Contemporary folk songs of the early 60's are now over 60 years old. How long will will it b before they are considered traditional? Are music hall songs now traditional?

The Louth Folk Club welcomes a wide range of peformers, which is the main reason that I am a member. I have a somewhat tongue-in-cheek attitude that, if a song is over 100 years old, it must be a folk song. This allows me to get away with the odd 1920's blues number but I try not to overdo it and would normally balance it with something traditional.

The Folk Club has had a number of homes over the years, mainly in pubs. 'Acoustic' is a reasonable description of what was on offer there. It is based at the Louth Jazz Club and, as such, the room is set out for the Jazz Club's needs. Folk Club performers, whether invited guests or floor singers, generally perform from a low stage at one end of the room, using mics with ibstruments sometimes plugged into the sound system. Would tjisnoe preclude us from using the 'acoustic' label even though the content is pretty much zs before?

DC

Subject: RE: uk folk club scene
From: cujimmy
Date: 02 Jun 26 - 10:10 AM

I was at a Folk Festival recently with a friend of mine, a lot of the musicians and singers seamed to enjoy my songs ie traditional songs mostly like The Letter (Kilkelly Ireland), Loch Lomond, The Terror times, Freeborn Man and others. A lot of people I met were younger than me and some asked me about my songs ie history, where I got them from etc. These people were very good musicians and very friendly, so I made some new friends which for me is why I enjoy Folk Music so much. So Ive passed some good songs onto some younger people, and felt very much appreciated. So Im off to Robin Hoods Bay FF this weekend which has been excellent for singers over the years. So for me there is still a lot to be enthusiastic about. Im 69 and have like lots of us, lost so many friends from the folk scene, but I feel it will carry on regardless and lots of people will continue to enjoy listening and participating and keep it very much alive.

Subject: RE: uk folk club scene
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 02 Jun 26 - 10:10 AM

Would this now preclude us .....

Subject: RE: uk folk club scene
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Jun 26 - 10:40 AM

doug chadwick , if it says blues thats what it isaYS if it says acoustic music club that is what it should be ,if it says trad music or trad and comntemporary folk songs it is all quite clear.
State your policy, promote it then targetting your possible audlence, an example... a blues club might target jazzers, it is not about what is folk music, it is about promoting certain genres., so that YOU ARRIVE AND LEAVE HAVING ENJOYED A MUSICAL EVENING
I happen to like blues trad folk contemporary folk song, but i am not keen on listening to pop songs, so if i go to a folk club on spec, i know what i might be in the mood for,I DO NOT WANT BADKY PERFOMED POPSONGS if Martin Carthy is advertised I DO NOT EXPECT HIM TO SING COUNTRY AND IRISH.
If i am the paid guest, i am getting paid to play my stuff be pleasant and put up with whatever. If i PAY MONEY TO GO TO A CLUB, I WANT TO KNOW WHAT I AM GOING TO GET.
If i go to a restaurant and order a vegetarian dish i do not want Tripe and onions, AND I WOULD BE IN MY RIGHTS TO ASK FOR MY MONEY BACK

Subject: RE: uk folk club scene
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Jun 26 - 10:55 AM

Clear specification, Blues, trad folk , trad folk and contemporary. Acoustic music, music hall, music hall trad folk contemporary or have specific nights, as some clubs do. Having specific nights targets particular tastes
Because a song is 100 years old is irrelevant

Subject: RE: uk folk club scene
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 02 Jun 26 - 11:45 AM

I agree that if it is clearly stated, then you should stick to what is requested. If it is not clear, then caution should be exercised. When I first went to the Louth Folk Club, I stuck to the straight and narrow until I got an idea of what was acceptable.

I did say "a somewhat tongue-in-cheek attitude" when I referred to songs over 100 yeats old. The Jazz Club has recently started having singers' nights, for blues/jazz/swing, in which I participate. I wouldn't dream of singing a folk song there - but it doesn't stop me making my 'folk song' joke if it's a Bessie Smith song from 1922.

DC
.

Subject: RE: uk folk club scene
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Jun 26 - 11:52 AM

it appears that some clubs have different audiences for singers nights and guest nights, that is revealing,

Subject: RE: uk folk club scene
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 02 Jun 26 - 12:02 PM

I meant to add to the opening paragraph above .....

I agree that if it is clearly stated, then you should stick to what is requested. I visited the Cork Singers' Club where it was clearly stated that the only acceptable instrument was the human voice. My guitar stayed locked in its case, out of the way, and I was pkeased to be invited to sing a song, a cappella.

DC

Subject: RE: uk folk club scene
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 02 Jun 26 - 12:19 PM

it appears that some clubs have different audiences for singers nights and guest nights, that is revealing,

In my experience, singers' nights are generally attended mostly by club members. A decent guest, properly advertised, could double the numbers by attracting non-members who want to see a top-class act.

DC

Subject: RE: uk folk club scene
From: Johnny J
Date: 02 Jun 26 - 05:26 PM

Well, I agree up to a point but one of the main problems now is that the folk and acoustic music has become too fragmented and specialised these days. In Edinburgh, at least, but possibly elsewhere too.

The Edinburgh Folk Club's original constitution stated something along the lines that the aim was to promote a wide range of folk music but predominantly traditional and Scottish. I can't remember the exact wording. So, over the years, there has been quite a variety of music including everything from unaccompanied Scots song, instrumental acts, folk bands, singer songwriters, blues, American music, Scandinavian music and so on.

In the old days, I felt audiences were actually more open to listen to something different. Also, EFC and similar clubs have historically been fortunate enough to be located in a reasonably large catchment area. So, aside from the regulars and members, there was usually enough of a local audience to make up the numbers for different types of acts. So, it wasn't necessarily always the same people coming through the doors every week.

Over the years, we have always had conflicting opinions about what should be presented e.g. trad V contemporary in the early days, old timers V the whizz kids and so on.
However, having said all that, it was usually always fairly obvious what belonged and what didn't.

Also, I recall that there was often some crossover even with individual artists. For instance Mike Whellans was very much an acoustic blues performer but he also sang bothy ballads and traditional songs and played with the likes of Aly Bain and The Boys of The Lough. Hamish Imlach also sang blues songs as well as various Scottish songs both traditional and contemporary.
There were and are many more examples.

Subject: RE: uk folk club scene
From: GUEST,Joe G
Date: 02 Jun 26 - 07:05 PM

Yes you are correct Dick it was Johnny Handle! Apologies for not spotting the autocorrect (auto incorrect) on my phone. I remember enjoying your performances there.

In relation to the issue raised above whether amplification would prevent it being described as an acoustic club, I think light amplification, such as used at the Black Swan Folk Club in York where I live now, would still make it reasonable to describe it as acoustic club.

In the end though we are in danger of getting into the 'what is folk' quagmire which I don't think helps anyone - especially not the promoters or organisers who put on gigs (or arrange folk clubs). I think most people know instinctively (or through internet research) whether a night would appeal to them without having to nail down the genre too to tightly. We really don't want to go down the JC route.....(and I don't mean Jeremy Corbyn ;-) )

Subject: RE: uk folk club scene
From: Johnny J
Date: 02 Jun 26 - 07:11 PM

Yes, there is an obvious distinction between the use of a PA or even plugged in acoustic instruments as opposed to "going electric".
;-)

Subject: RE: uk folk club scene
From: GUEST,Joe G
Date: 02 Jun 26 - 08:02 PM

Absolutely - though I love both :-)

Subject: RE: uk folk club scene
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Jun 26 - 01:38 AM

the first club i went to was a blues club.
my only concern is whether organisers by spoecialising might be able to promote better. perhaps its a question of sometimes yes sometimes no,

Subject: RE: uk folk club scene
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Jun 26 - 03:40 AM

if i was running a predominantly trad club i might contact CCE, to have a tune session, or an english or scittish equivalent at beginning and in middle when people were socialising. I might also target story tellers and include., as they might appreciate story songs
if it was a song writing type club, i might try and contact poets or writers, these are only ideas that might or might not work but specialising could possibly have positives

Subject: RE: uk folk club scene
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 04 Jun 26 - 05:02 AM

I always find the term “acoustic music” a bit of a misnomer, when most guest artistes use such things as PA systems and microphones. Most dictionary definitions of acoustic music run thus:
“In music, acoustic primarily refers to sound produced naturally WITHOUT electrical amplification. It describes instruments that rely on physical vibrations—like hollow wooden bodies or brass chambers—to project sound. It also refers to the physical properties of a room or concert hall that affect how sound waves.”

In one club, some members suggested changing the name from “X Folk Club” to “X Acoustic Music Club” as they thought it would appeal to more people. The proposal was voted against, so it’s still a folk club.

As far as folk clubs go, I’d agree with Johnny J’s contention that guest nights can feature a wide variety of singers/players that fall under the broad umbrella of “folk music” (no, I won’t try to define it! Too many people have tried already.)
I assume that clubs will publicise their guest nights in advance, so it is possible, nay desirable, to say a few words about what to expect from specific guests, and then one can make one’s own mind up about whether to attend or not. So, for one person I know, a night of all tunes and no songs would be a turn-off, and a night of Bluegrass and Americana might draw in a different crowd as well as our usual clientele.
And for our session (non-guest) nights, people are welcome to sing or play whatever comes into their head (or tell a story/recite a poem). Nobody will tell them “you can’t do that, because it’s not folk”.

Subject: RE: uk folk club scene
From: Johnny J
Date: 04 Jun 26 - 07:46 AM

Yes, "Folk Club" is as good a term as any and covers a multitude of sins.

Many years ago, we had considered changing the name but decided to keep it but we added something in our publicity like "promoting music in Edinburgh" . I can't remember the exact words but the idea was to suggest that we were attempting to appeal to a broader audience.   That was in the eighties, believe it or not. ;-)

Also, in the latter days, Edinburgh Folk Festival promoted itself as "Shoots and Roots" but I always thought this was more likely to confuse potential audiences and, in some ways, seemed an even narrower approach although it was intended to have the opposite effect.

Personally, I think basic descriptions are the best. In Edinburgh, we now have "Trad Fest" which covers a multitude of possibilities which is fine.

Also, Scots Fiddle Festival is another good all embracing name which covers all varieties of fiddle music from Scotland and also allows music from elsewhere to be staged IN Scotland..... So, anything is possible.
Edinburgh International Harp Festival is also a good name too.

Both of the above also allows for the inclusion of other other instruments, ceilidhs, and even some singing. It's just that the named instruments are the main focus.

In Glasgow, there is Celtic Connections. A more restrictive description on the face of things but they are stuck with it now. However, they get away with presenting whatever they wish by focusing on the "Connections" side of things.
;-)

In short, all of the above could be briefly summarised as "If it ain't broke, don't try to fix it".

Subject: RE: uk folk club scene
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Jun 26 - 09:56 AM

it is not a question of anyone telling anybody what they can or cannot do ,
it is about promotion and what is the most successful way to promote., and getting pepple to come back regularly

Subject: RE: uk folk club scene
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Jun 26 - 09:59 AM

example, of good promotion
if i have a blues perfomer ,the best way to proomote it is call it a blues night.
if someone is a songwriter say so

Subject: RE: uk folk club scene
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Jun 26 - 10:12 AM

so,that leaves us with singers nights, what we know is that there will not be a quality guest performer, doing 2   40 min spots.
we know that everybody who wants, gets a chance to sing, what often happens is that singers come
some of whom may be good and others may not, does it include any audience who are not singers,, does that matter to the organisers? does it attract people who are not singers or are people put off by possible variable standard?
these are qustions, about why people do or do not come
in my opinion it is situations like that[ possibly iffy singers nights] that require a good nucleus of high quality residents, available to bring the standard up

Subject: RE: uk folk club scene
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 04 Jun 26 - 11:35 AM

At the "Folk at the Barlow" we have one guest night with a support and one singers night per month.
We try to keep to a standard charge for tickets for the guest nights, bearing slight losses and topping up from increased takings from the more popular nights. Some artists attract an audience that they, in effect, bring with them because of their following. Some of these return in later months once they have seen the quality of our venue.
For singers nights we suggest a donation in proportion to the number of participants set against the room hire cost. Some we win, some we lose. We are not a "for profit" organisation and if we have a surplus then we can book more expensive guests another time.
There is a lot of word of mouth for attracting singers to the singers nights as we have quite a lot of sessions in the area, all things considered.
We do get some younger audience members as tickets are free up to the age of 16 and half price up to 25.
I think it is helpful to encourage less gifted performers when they make a better fist of a particular song and try to explain to them what you thought was better about that particular one.
I would try to refrain from making comments that discourage performers, and just keep to the positive.
I have, in the past, and not in Lancashire, seen a total beginner develope into a quite reasonable performer from one who could not keep in tune for nervousness, all because of helpful comments from others there.

Robin

Robin

Subject: RE: uk folk club scene
From: Johnny J
Date: 04 Jun 26 - 12:08 PM

Yes, of course you should promote individual *nights* at clubs and as part of a festival accordingly.

However, a folk club may have had a blues act one week e.g. someone like Dave Peabody or a guitar player such as John James, Duck Baker, Eddie Walker etc and the next week the guest could have been Martin Carthy. Or a fiddler like Tom McConville.

Showing my age with some of these but I wanted to give well known examples....

All of the above acts, one might reasonably expect to find in most larger folk clubs. As I say, make sure the audience knows what to expect on a "nightly" basis but there's no need to rename the club itself. Just my opinion. ;-))

Subject: RE: uk folk club scene
From: Johnny J
Date: 04 Jun 26 - 12:14 PM

Of course, if it definitely IS a Blues, jazz, Americana or whatever club then YES..it should be promoted that way.
However, if it is a more general folk club as many still are, I'm happy with still calling it a folk club.