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Help: Old Time & Bluegrass
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Subject: Help: Old Time & Bluegrass From: Ian Darby Date: 02 Apr 02 - 06:47 PM I just watched 'Down From The Mountain' and would like to hear more of the same. Could any of you please point me in the right direction? I'm particularly interested in Appalachian stuff and would also like to get in to Bluegrass. If you could give me the names of some of the players or album titles I'd be grateful. Thanks, Ian. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Old Time & Bluegrass From: michaelr Date: 02 Apr 02 - 07:13 PM Ian - check out the Del McCoury band. They are one of the hottest "traditionalist" bluegrass bands working at this time. I haven't seen "Down from the Mountain" so I'm not sure who is in the film, but as far as classic bluegrass there's Bill Monroe (the "father" of BG), the Stanley Brothers, and Flatt & Scruggs. For the New Trads, there's Gillian Welch, Alison Krause & Union Station, Nickel Creek, Steve Earle, and Alison Brown. You might also look for some Ricky Skaggs albums (beware, he went through a Nashville country-pop phase but is playing BG again). And of course The Queen, Emmylou Harris. Also of note this year is the 30th anniversary of the Nitty Gritty Dirt Bands groundbreaking collaboration album with dozens of the greats of pre-pop country and BG, "Will The Circle Be Unbroken", which is being reissued. A must-have, timeless classic! Hope this will get you started; if you have more specific questions, post them here; there are others more qualified than I to answer them (I'm mainly a Celtic guy these days). Cheers, Michael |
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Subject: RE: Help: Old Time & Bluegrass From: Ian Darby Date: 02 Apr 02 - 07:24 PM michaelr That's more than enough, I've read about most of these in 'Mojo' magazine, what I wanted to avoid was the 'Nashville Country Pop' stuff that seems to be flying about. I definitely fancy the Steve Earle/Del Mc Coury Band album. I have also heard Ricky Skaggs on the Mandolin. I just bought 'Stars & Stripes Forever' by the NGDB, which I enjoyed immensely. (I'll have to buy all their other stuff now.) Thanks for putting me on the right track. Ian |
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Subject: RE: Help: Old Time & Bluegrass From: michaelr Date: 02 Apr 02 - 07:30 PM Ian - listen to NGDB albums before buying; they too have been guilty of Nashville schlock transgressions, especieally during the period when they shortened their name to "Dirt Band". But you can't go wrong with the "Circle" album. Michael |
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Subject: RE: Help: Old Time & Bluegrass From: wysiwyg Date: 02 Apr 02 - 07:50 PM LISTEN HERE. Some of the artists there are also HERE with MORE to listen to! Here is an article about the difference between old-timey and bluegrass, in terms of musicianship and jam expectations that I found today HERE: NOTES ON JAMS AND JAM ETIQUETTE, Compiled by Edward I. Pollak, Ph.D., epollak@wcupa.edu. Appropriate jam etiquette should ALWAYS be observed. If you're a novice, stay in the background & play quietly until you get the hang of it. (This is the musical equivalent of "lurking.") No one is impressed by a newcomer (or old timer) who insists on playing over everyone else's vocals and breaks. Rules of etiquette tend to differ from jam to jam and especially between Old Timey and BG jams. In BG jams, all pickers are expected to vamp or chop or play back up licks behind the vocalist or whichever instrument is given the nod to take a solo break.
In Old Timey (OT) jams, it's common for all banjos and all fiddles to play the melody in unison. This behavior would quickly make you persona non grata at a BG jam. Many OT jams frown on banjo players with finger picks (and possibly resonators) because such instruments overpower the more traditional-style pickers. Playing Scruggs style at some OT jams is liable to get you ridden out of town on a (f)rail
Some "Folky" jams are not jams at all but "open circles" where participants take turns singing and playing. It always pays to stay in the background for a half hour or so until you can deduce the rules.
BG jams will often welcome an OT banjo player and even offer him/her solo breaks but you must obey BG etiquette and not keep frailing, etc. over other people's breaks. The key here (and in most group playing) is to maintain eye contact with whoever is leading that particular song. This is usually, but not always, the vocalist or in the case of instrumentals, whoever kicked off the tune.
I see lots of novices wondering why no one gives them a solo break. There are usually three answers:
1)The leader tried to give you a break but you were too busy looking at your fingerboard. (Dobro players are notoriously guilty of this particular sin.)
2)The leader didn't feel you needed a solo break since you'd already (effectively) taken your "solo" break(s) albeit while the vocalist was singing or the mandolin was trying to be heard for his solo break. Sometimes I get the impression that new jam participants try to play too loudly and too much so that those standing around will know that the newcomer has some ability and is, therefore, deserving of a solo break. Rest assured that you can give people a feel for your skill level just as easily with a few well chosen back up licks as you can with a raging "solo break" played over the vocals.
3)The final reason you may not get a break is that the jam leader(s) are being insensitive boors. Sometimes this is a momentary lapse and sometimes it is a persistent personality flaw but don't jump to conclusions too quickly.
I have heard people say "that jam doesn't like new comers" when I know for a fact that is not true. Give a jam a couple of tries before deciding that the participants are simply too inbred to deal with.
Another truly annoying habit (not necessarily restricted to novices) is evidenced when someone continuously "noodles around" on his/her instrument between songs. People are often trying TUNE between songs and do not , therefore, appreciate such an activity. If your noodling around is a (not so) subtle way of suggesting the next tune, then just go ahead and suggest the next tune! If your noodling around is just a way of showing others how good you are, it is unnecessary, and just plain annoying. If your noodling around is an attempt to practice a particular tune or lick, move away from the group and practice in a corner by yourself.
Last but not least, a note for long time jam participants: Go out of your way to be welcoming and helpful to new comers. They represent the future and growth of the music and jam sessions we all love.
revised 10/14/00
~Susan |
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Subject: RE: Help: Old Time & Bluegrass From: Anahootz Date: 02 Apr 02 - 07:56 PM A few more to look into...For Bluegrass: Don Reno, The Osborne brothers, Larry Sparks, Mike Compton, Frank Wakefield, Country Current, Hot Rize, IIIrd Tyme Out, Seldom Scene, The Country Gentlemen, The Kentucky Colonels, Jackstraw, The Nashville Bluegrass Band...to name but a smattering. For old time: Tommey Jarrell, Fred Cockerham, Gid Tanner, Uncle Dave Macon, Any Old Time String Band, Fuzzy Mountain String Band, Freighthoppers, Tim O'brien, Dirk Powell, John Herrmann, Piney Creek Weasels, Middle Spunk Creek Boys...to name yet another few. If you wish, I can direct you to .MP3 sites with all of these folks and a ton more. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Old Time & Bluegrass From: Ian Darby Date: 02 Apr 02 - 08:21 PM michaelr, Anahootz & WYSISWG This is plenty to be going on with. I'm sure I'll end up poorer and happier by the time I've bought all this stuff. Thanks again, Ian. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Old Time & Bluegrass From: Steve Latimer Date: 02 Apr 02 - 09:16 PM Another vote for Will The Circle Be Unbroken (Be sure it's Volume I, the double CD) as a starting point. It has some of the finest players of these genres ever assembled. Earl Scruggs, Doc Watson, Merle Travis, Mother Maybelle Carter, Roy Acuff Johnny Cash to name a few as well as some who were considered newbies at the time who have gone on to play wonderful music. Choose some of the performers that you like and explore their own stuff. Another couple of good ones are "The Stanley Brothers, The Complete Columbia Recordings" and "Flatt & Scruggs, 20th Century Masters, The Millenium Collection" which is put out by Universal/MCA. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Old Time & Bluegrass From: X Date: 02 Apr 02 - 10:16 PM Can't be said enough, "Will The Circle Be Unbroken" album with the Nitty Gritty Dirt Band. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Old Time & Bluegrass From: wysiwyg Date: 02 Apr 02 - 10:41 PM MP3's? Freebies? With GOSPEL tunes in 'em? Where.... ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: Help: Old Time & Bluegrass From: Anahootz Date: 02 Apr 02 - 10:57 PM Here. Go to "download Satellite" and do that - MAKE SURE YOU READ WHAT YOU ARE GETTING. Some annoying stuff is "bundled", but that takes a minimum of effort to get rid of before D/L. When you get it installed, search for tunes by title or artist. I have 2000+ Bluegrass and oldtime tunes to download, and my user name there is the same as here. Some members of my group ('Grass for the masses) have over 8000 Bluegrass tunes . Remember, mp3 sharing is sort of like borrowing, so if you find an artist that you really like (and who isn't on Rounder Records), go buy the album instead of ripping the cd from the 'net. Just an opinion. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Old Time & Bluegrass From: Desert Dancer Date: 03 Apr 02 - 12:54 PM "Old time" country music is what they were doing before bluegrass was invented. If you want non-commercial, it makes traditional bluegrass look like big bucks. Here are a few starter sites: |
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Subject: RE: Help: Old Time & Bluegrass From: Desert Dancer Date: 03 Apr 02 - 12:57 PM Somehow the end of my message got clipped. Here's one more site: |
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Subject: RE: Help: Old Time & Bluegrass From: Ian Darby Date: 03 Apr 02 - 07:07 PM Thanks to the lot of you. What I like about Old Time and Bluegrass (I know they're two different things) is the straight-forwardness of the stuff. I think I can hear some Old Time influence on the first two John Prine albums. Good story telling, simple structures, and great playing. By the way, what is 'flat singing?'. Thanks again, Ian. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Old Time & Bluegrass From: wysiwyg Date: 03 Apr 02 - 07:32 PM We are finding the same thing as we use the gospel ones in worship in our Saturday Night Service. They are, as a good friend says it, POW'ful! Flat voice... I think that would be the tone of the voice-- not the pitch but the flatness of the sound, as opposed to the technically correct singing from the head voice.... it would have to do with where in your throat you put the voice, how you color the tone.... Gosh that's easier done than said! ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: Help: Old Time & Bluegrass From: Desert Dancer Date: 04 Apr 02 - 01:54 AM Eeek! Third time's the charm??? ~ Becky in Tucson |
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Subject: RE: Help: Old Time & Bluegrass From: Steve Latimer Date: 25 Apr 02 - 02:16 PM I just picked up "Hand-Picked 25 Years of Bluegrass on Rounder". It is very good. It's a two CD set that I paid $7.99 CDN for (about $5.00 U.S.). There is way too much on it to try to list here, click below. It's a wonderful CD, despite the cover photo looking like Rick Moranis & Joe Flaherty. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Old Time & Bluegrass From: Ian Darby Date: 25 Apr 02 - 09:01 PM Steve Latimer, I'll try and get hold of this. The rest of you... I just got the NGDB 'Will the Circle Be Unbroken' album and like both discs. I also got a Bill Monroe CD for about four quid (UK Money,) I can't believe what I've been missing. Also taped 'Down From The Mountain' off BBC Four and will buy the DVD as soon as we get a player. This stuff is as much to our taste as 'The Last Waltz', and if any of you know of any music videos along similar lines we'd love to hear about it. I haven't seen 'Oh Brother Where Art Thou' yet, but our Drummer played me some stuff off the DVD the other night and I can't wait to see it. (My better half hadn't heard Cajun Music before we got together, and she's as excited about hearing Old Time & Bluegrass. WYSIWYG, Have seen the light, now I need to move in to gospel. (We just got the Aretha Franklin Double 'Amazing Grace' CD.) Please, (again) point me in the right direction, Rosetta Tharpe etc... Regards, Ian.
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Subject: RE: Help: Old Time & Bluegrass From: Mark Ross Date: 25 Apr 02 - 10:09 PM Now is the time for you to check out the Harry Smith 3 CD ANTHOLOGY OF AMERICAN FOLKSONGS. That is the real article, commercial 78's issued in the golden age of recording. I hear that there is even a 4th out now. Harry Snith had always planned one but never got around to it, and now somebody did. THis Old-Time MUsic at its best. Mark Ross |
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Subject: RE: Help: Old Time & Bluegrass From: Steve Latimer Date: 25 Apr 02 - 10:11 PM Ian, Aretha is a pretty good starting point. You may or may not know that her father was a Minister and she started singing in his Church. What a voice. Some of the best Bluegrass is Gospel. The Stanley Brothers Complete Columbia Recordings has many gospel tunes on it. You'll be hard pressed to find better harmonies than Carter & Ralph together. I'm glad you're enjoying WTCBU. Some wonderful performances on that. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Old Time & Bluegrass From: wysiwyg Date: 25 Apr 02 - 10:38 PM Head on over to www.dovesong.com and have a listen. Yer on the Whoa Nellie track now! I have a lot of stuff to share-- keep asking! *G* ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: Help: Old Time & Bluegrass From: Stewie Date: 25 Apr 02 - 11:19 PM In relation to NGDB's 'Will the Circle', Capitol have recently released a '30th Anniversary Edition'. I have not heard this edition, but evidently the set's 38 songs have been expanded to 42 with 4 previously unreleased segments included. --Stewie. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Old Time & Bluegrass From: Steve Latimer Date: 25 Apr 02 - 11:25 PM Stewie, I read somewhere that two or three of the "extra" tracks are conversations similar to the meeting of Doc & Merle. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Old Time & Bluegrass From: Steve Latimer Date: 25 Apr 02 - 11:30 PM Stewie, Here it is. There is also a piece by John McCuen talking about the original sessions and the re-mastering. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Old Time & Bluegrass From: GUEST,Zorro Date: 25 Apr 02 - 11:56 PM A couple of years ago I was looking for a Darby & Tarlton record and someone from Mudcat put me onto a website that has the word "County" in the name. They had a CD of Darby and Tarlton who recorded in the 20's (I think). I still get a magazine of cd's that are available, old, old stuff that predates Bluegrass. For the life of me I cannot remember the name of the magazine or the web site. I'll keep looking or someone in the forum may know. I'm amazed at how much collective information is available at MC. And we are all willing to share ..... Z |
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Subject: RE: Help: Old Time & Bluegrass From: Stewie Date: 26 Apr 02 - 02:56 AM Steve, thanks for that. Zorro, the site you are seeking is probably County Sales: --Stewie. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Old Time & Bluegrass From: open mike Date: 26 Apr 02 - 03:52 AM there is a s.f.bay area band called the crooked jades who recently did a documentary about 7 sisters in appalachia (Kentucky?) they have a bumper sticker that says: Old time is not a crime..... you might want to go to fiddle festivals/contests or contra dances-lots of live music at these-- old time fiddle tunes and bluegrass tunes... |
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Subject: RE: Help: Old Time & Bluegrass From: GUEST,vixen @work Date: 26 Apr 02 - 11:42 AM Shameless promotion here-- If you want to sample some of both, come see/hear Shady Creek (Mudcat Reynaud) and Traver Hollow at Three Rivers community College in Norwich CT tomorrow, Saturday, 27 April, at 7:00 pm. $10 donation benefits the college fine arts program. V |
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Subject: RE: Help: Old Time & Bluegrass From: GUEST,Chris Date: 26 Apr 02 - 12:51 PM Try a box set from Proper Records Ltd. 4 cds with 109 tracks, including Ernest Stoneman, Uncle Dave Macon, Gid Tanner, Monroe Brothers, Bill Monroe, Delmore Brothers, Stanley Brothers, Flatt & Scruggs and many others. All genuine old time and classic bluegrass music. All for about £18. In many record stores in the UK, and they have a web site www.proper.uk.com |
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Subject: RE: Help: Old Time & Bluegrass From: GUEST,Chris Date: 26 Apr 02 - 12:55 PM Sorry, forgot the title of the Proper Box set - its "Bluegrass Bonanza". |
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Subject: RE: Help: Old Time & Bluegrass From: Steve Latimer Date: 26 Apr 02 - 01:35 PM Don't forget, if your CD store doesn't have it they can ususally order it. Most of my recent purchases have been ordered, are here in a couple of weeks at the regular price. |
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