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BS: Megiddo
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Subject: Megiddo From: Ebbie Date: 26 Sep 01 - 02:13 PM I'm dogsitting at a friend's house this week. Turned on the TV and saw the most- what can I say- bizarre religious show I've ever seen. It's evidently called 'Megiddo', on TBN. Four people perched on - lawn chairs, maybe?- workers or maybe audience in the background. One of the men looked sane- and yet he is the one who did most of the talking and somehow was able to keep a straight face. The other man (maybe his son?)was a giggler; the woman beside him didn't speak but her hair was spiked and touseled. Ah, but the other woman was a treat- think a heavy Tammy Faye, with a twist. A flowing golden wig over shorter hair close to the face (looked like a poodle straight from the shop where the groomer had tried to get a startling effect). No Tammy Faye eyelashes, though. She was wearing a black off-shoulder dress, deeply scooped to show her swelling breasts that were coyly peeping through her flowing locks... At first I thought it was a parody of tv evangelism and I laughed and laughed- but it developed that they meant to be serious. To bring this back to a music thread- there was no music. Ebbie :~) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Megiddo From: wysiwyg Date: 26 Sep 01 - 02:22 PM Oh good, more anti-religion stuff at Mudcat. ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Megiddo From: Ebbie Date: 26 Sep 01 - 02:41 PM Discussing 'anti-religion', WYSIWYG, is not what this thread is about. It's about a totally inept presentation that is, I would hope, counter-productive. Have you ever seen the show? On the other hand, I can see that this thread is also counter-productive. For that much, I apologize. Ebbie |
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Subject: RE: BS: Megiddo From: GUEST,Russ Date: 26 Sep 01 - 03:44 PM Don't let WYSIWYG bully you.
Not familiar with the program but found a few websites that might be connected. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Megiddo From: Joe Offer Date: 26 Sep 01 - 04:59 PM Hmmm. Russ, the last two links you provided are a bit scary. Here's a link to http://www.tbn.org/. I can't find the program in question. Megiddo is is another name for Armageddon, the location in Israel where the final battle between good and evil is expected to take place. Whenever there's a significant tragedy, the TV evangelists go into a feeding frenzy, talking about Armageddon and all that sensationalistic end-of-the-world stuff. Makes for good TV ratings, and larger collections. If the world is coming to an end, who need soney? Might as well give it to the preacher and buy some salvation. As a Christian (of the liberal variety), I find television evangelism very embarrassing, for the most part. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Megiddo From: Don Firth Date: 26 Sep 01 - 05:06 PM Fret not, WYSIWYG, the show Ebbie is talking about doesn't have anything to do with religion. IMHO Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Megiddo From: Cappuccino Date: 26 Sep 01 - 05:26 PM One of the biggest challenges in evangelism is indeed in getting over the embarrassing parts of it... and a lot of British religious TV is also embarrassing. That's why we're planning on taking some really rough folk/blues, but with Jesus lyrics, out to local pubs. Hope you like this response to a potentially embarrassing moment, Susan and Joe - One of our preachers was praying that the kids who hang around our shopping centre would all be seen to exchange their beer cans for Bibles. In the stunned silence that followed, my harmonica-playing partner remarked: 'no, let's be realistic... let's start by aiming for a beer in one hand, and a Bible in the other!' - Ian B
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Subject: RE: BS: Megiddo From: wysiwyg Date: 26 Sep 01 - 05:29 PM Ian, I adore you more every day. Please come play with us! ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Megiddo From: Cappuccino Date: 26 Sep 01 - 05:32 PM She only says that because she knows I'm 3,000 miles away! - Ian |
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Subject: RE: BS: Megiddo From: wysiwyg Date: 26 Sep 01 - 06:03 PM *G* Think MP3s, then! ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Megiddo From: John Hardly Date: 26 Sep 01 - 06:09 PM As a Christian (of the conservative variety), I find television evangelism very embarrassing, for the most part. John Hardly
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Subject: RE: BS: Megiddo From: GUEST,Russ Date: 27 Sep 01 - 09:04 AM Joe, Christians have been predicting the imminent unpleasant demise of the world as we know almost literally from day one. The phenomenon is sometimes called "millenarianism" or "chiliasm" and is as old as Christianity. You want scary, read about the furor accompanying the year 1000 C.E. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Megiddo From: John Hardly Date: 27 Sep 01 - 10:30 AM Russ, In fairness to them----and this sounds like a nit-picky point but isn't-----they aren't "predicting the imminent, unpleasant demise...". They are trying to interpret the Biblical writing that predicts the "unpleasant demise...". They look at it literally, others look at it figuratively......but they're not making it up. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Megiddo From: GUEST,Russ Date: 27 Sep 01 - 11:16 AM John, Good point. I made some assumptions about them and simply lumped them into a group. Thanks for confusing me with facts. However, an intense "interest" in the proper interpretation of Revelations, especially on the part of a group rather than an individual, tends to be one of the "warning signs" of chiliasm. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Megiddo From: Don Firth Date: 27 Sep 01 - 12:22 PM Not all Christians are into that stuff. Of those who are, the noise they make is far out of proportion with their numbers. They are usually called "millennialists," and no matter how you slice it, they're a cult. The core of their beliefs is not centered arounds Jesus' teachings, but around wild-eyed attempts to interpret the Book of Revelations, which, if put into historical context, is a polemic against Roman occupation. FOr example, the Number of the Beast (666), in a school of numerology popular at that time, refers, not to some sort of spiritual Evil such as Satan or the Anti-Christ -- it refers to the Roman Emperor, specifically, Nero. The Zealots were gung-ho on driving the Romans out, and the Book of Revelations is a Zealot political tract written in metaphor. Why it's included in the Bible at all is the real mystery. (Strike me with lightning, somebody) Main-stream Christian churches (Lutheran, Methodist, Episcopal, etc.) tend to distance themselves from this bunch. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Megiddo From: Cappuccino Date: 27 Sep 01 - 01:01 PM Don, any references online where I can read about your Revelations theory? (Not my favourite bedtime reading, I have to say!) Thanks - IanB |
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Subject: RE: BS: Megiddo From: Jack The Lad Date: 27 Sep 01 - 01:35 PM Megiddo- or more accurately Megiddo Forest was the scene of Israel's most recent folk festival(actually ethno-folk). Held at Rosh HaShanna(New Year) an estimated 25000 people took part. Folk Festivals are better than battles. Jack The Lad |
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Subject: RE: BS: Megiddo From: John Hardly Date: 27 Sep 01 - 01:57 PM "...no matter how you slice it, they're a cult." --Don Firth Don, I couldn't hope to be your intellectual equal---I love what you write here (as you know I've even quoted you elsewhere) and you are nothing if not a gentleman. Still, even though I am from a minority school of thought that believes that "fundamental Christianity" has been highjacked, there are many believers in many of the mainline denominations who take Revelation literally and do not fit with the orthodox definition of "cult". Even to these people the book is at the very least divided into the present (the churches of Greece and Asia Miinor) and what has to either be deciphered as mystery, or future events. One of the strengths to the acceptance of the book of Revelation is that it is the writings of the Apostle John-----Apostles always given more weight when considering the canon. I guess that what I'm trying to say is that, though I will conceed that a preoccupation with Revelation seems to be the repository for the church's biggest kook-burgers, it is still overstatement to say that "no matter how you slice it...". I've seen it sliced a different way all my life....within an orthodox context. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Megiddo From: wysiwyg Date: 27 Sep 01 - 06:04 PM In another thread I responded with the reality of life in a liturgical church. One benefit, I said, was that in a liturgical church, you get exposed to ALL of the Bible. The standing committee of our diocese today began with a Bible study prepared and led by my husband, based on the Epistle due for this coming Sunday. Here is the material that introduces the passage due for Sunday, in the New English Bible translation, from the letter to Timothy. ======================================================== THIS IS WHAT you are to teach and preach. If any one is teaching otherwise, and will not give his mind to wholesome precepts-- I mean those of our Lord Jesus Christ-- and to good religious teaching, I call him a pompous ignoramus. He is morbidly keen on mere verbal questions and quibbles, which give rise to jealousy, quarrelling, slander, base suspicions, and endless wrangles: all typical of men who have let their reasoning powers become atrophied and have lost grip of the truth. They think religion should yield dividends; and of course religion does yield high dividends, but only to the man whose resources are within him. We brought nothing into the world; for that matter we cannot take anything with us when we leave, but if we have food and covering we may rest content. Those who want to be rich fall into temptations and snares and many foolish harmful desires which plunge men into ruin and perdition. The love of money is the root of all evil things, and there are some who in reaching for it have wandered from the faith and spiked themselves on many thorny griefs. ========================================================= I didn't start this thread, but where I can present things I know from my own experience, that shed light on threads others start, I am going to. There is too much untruth circulated here, IMO, to leave standing on its own. ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: BS: Megiddo From: Don Firth Date: 27 Sep 01 - 06:07 PM IanB, what I said about the Book of Revelation isn't my theory, it's been pretty solidly established by the more objective Bible scholars. I don't know of any info online, but there may be some. Much of what I've heard comes from reading and from classes I've taken at one time or another, and from talking with a number of pastors, priests, and ministers of various denominations. That is, ones who are willing to discuss, not just make pronouncements and issue edicts. I can't recall if he covers Revelation or not, but a retired Episcopal bishop has written a most interesting book, Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism : A Bishop Rethinks the Meaning of Scriptureby John Shelby Spong. For those who are interested in the subject, this is pretty fascinating reading. Bishop Spong has written a number of equally thoughtful (and controversial) books. Although highly respected by many clergymen, needless to say in some churches he is definitely not flavor of the month. There are some who maintain he is The Beast. Nevertheless, interesting and thought-provoking. He has quite a following among many Christians, as this website demonstrates. A clergyman with a fan club, no less! And John, first of all, thanks for the kind words. Rethinking the line "…no matter how you slice it…" this was perhaps a bit strong. There is a substantial number of main-line Christians who take Revelations pretty seriously and I don't mean to step on their toes. I must admit, I don't know all that much specifically about the Apostle John, but at least a couple of the Apostles were Zealots. Judas was, and that explains his actions. He (and others) expected Jesus to be another warrior king, like David, and drive the Romans out with a flaming sword. When it became obvious that this was not what Jesus was all about, Judas was bitterly disappointed in him. Some maintain that Judas' betrayal was a misguided attempt to goad Jesus into action. Where John stood it this (if at all), I don't know. What I take issue with are the folks who drag people out onto a mountaintop (or far worse), and those willing to be dragged, to await Jesus' return in a fiery chariot, accompanied by a host of angels waving flaming swords and hacking up all those whom they think are non-believers. Very Christian. For them, I would suggest a little less time in Revelation and a bit more in the Gospels. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Megiddo From: wysiwyg Date: 27 Sep 01 - 06:32 PM Um Don, one of the problems people have with Spong is not his controversies, but the fact that he does engender fan clubs, etc.... some people prefer the focus be on our Lord, not Our Bishop. When a church controversy degenerates to "I agree with that guy," instead of "This is what God says to me about it," that's indicative of a problem underlying the rest of what the person presents. ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Megiddo From: Joe Offer Date: 27 Sep 01 - 10:14 PM This is all very interesting. It really is - but with John Hardly talking about kookburgers and slicing things that might be edible, and Don Firth about the flavor of the month, I think I'd better go cook dinner. If I weren't so darn hungry, I'd take the time to look up some passages in St. Paul that seem to indicate that he thought the end was near. So yeah, I'd agree with Russ that Christians have been preaching about the end of the world since "day one." So, can somebody else find those passages for me while I'm doing dinner? -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Megiddo From: John Hardly Date: 27 Sep 01 - 10:41 PM They are throughout the book of II Thessalonians. They don't imply a soon, only an imminent return. That was the point of Paul's writing. The people of Thessalonica were behaving as the kookburgers of our own times--acting as though Jesus would return and that meant they need not live in the day to day. One of the key themes in Thessalonians was to counter this behavior and teach that, one should act as one wishes to be found acting when Jesus returns, because you don't know when that will occur. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Megiddo From: Troll Date: 27 Sep 01 - 11:38 PM Susan, the fan club business may be so and it may be sour grapes. As you well know a preacher who is an interesting and dynamic speaker will attract more worshipers than will a dull but earnest one no matter how well grounded his theology. troll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Megiddo From: Don Firth Date: 28 Sep 01 - 12:35 AM Susan, Bishop Spong didn't set out to engender fan clubs; in fact, I think he finds them a bit embarrassing. He was attempting to answer as best he could the need of a lot of people -- a lot of people -- who were dissatisfied with the same old pap they were hearing from the pulpit every Sunday, or who had ceased going to church because, as someone once said, "This just isn't enough food for my soul." (Sorry, there we go with food again). After all the murkiness that has been stirred up by the forty-umpteen different and contradictory interpretations of the Scriptures (including the interpretations of those who say one must not interpret but take the Bible literally), no wonder many people try to learn about the Bible in an effort to better determine what it really means (in fact, many churches recommend that one do this). If you know some of the history of the period and something about the people who wrote the Scriptures, things often become a lot clearer than if you just try to read them cold. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Megiddo From: wysiwyg Date: 28 Sep 01 - 03:18 AM As regards Spong, I am talking about the things one may observe when one applies the principle, "Ye shall know them by their fruits." People who know his diocese report more than controversy, they report brokenness between people caught up in the controversies and a polarization by lines drawn according to whether one supports him or does not. The Church of course is bigger than Spong, and there is of course room in it for him; but his teachings have less than a full generation behind them, while many generations have been spent amassing the understandings he dismantles with his new applications of the Scriptures. Look here, see, now we are in a Spong debate, instead of discussing anything else. See what I mean? As regards fan clubs, I am more than familiar with the dynamics of church growth. Short term church growth does in fact often accompany dynamic presentations. But long term growth and the stability of growth once it has occurred do not depend on preaching. They require thorough grounding in the basics of prayer and scripture that provide a sound foundation for the real winner in church growth-- emulating Jesus' care for people in pastoral care, teaching, and prayer for people and with people. These are the qualities Jesus Himself looked for when he chose unprepossessing souls to be His apostles... few of them were gifted preachers. ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Megiddo From: The_one_and_only_Dai Date: 28 Sep 01 - 05:19 AM Sue - isn't what you said about individuals having a direct connection with God the Albigensian/Lollard Heresy? <g> |
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Subject: RE: BS: Megiddo From: Wolfgang Date: 28 Sep 01 - 06:07 AM Rupture ready Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: Megiddo From: Cappuccino Date: 28 Sep 01 - 07:18 AM Sorry Don, I didn't mean 'your' theory in an offensive or accusing manner, I was merely referring to the fact that you had brought it forward for attention! But thanks for the information, greatly appreciated. Over here, I've never heard of the guy, but will now look it up. And Wolfgang, the wonderful Ship of Fools website (the 'magazine of Christian Unrest') includes a Mystery Worshipper feature, one of whose jobs is to rate services according to 'rapture quotient'!!! Thanks, folks... just off to photocopy the song sheets for Sunday. There's a couple of challenging ones in there this week...! - Ian B |
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Subject: RE: BS: Megiddo From: Cappuccino Date: 28 Sep 01 - 07:20 AM Blimey, he turns out to be British....! - Ian B
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Subject: RE: BS: Megiddo From: wysiwyg Date: 28 Sep 01 - 11:07 AM Dai, no.... not in the sense I meant it, at all. ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Megiddo From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 28 Sep 01 - 07:49 PM Bottom line is, you've got to be careful about Fundamentalists of any tradition. Including folk music.
They are ingredients, not the main course. Salt of the earth maybe, but if you just eat salt on its own you'll die. |