Help: How did folk-rock start?

Subject: Help: How did folk-rock start?
From: GUEST,Ian Stephenson
Date: 04 Jan 03 - 11:00 AM

Hi. Ian Stephenson here from sunny selby!
I was wondering if somebody could help me out with some home-work I'm stuck on. You might laugh but I'm on the newcastle uni folk & trad music degree and I need to find out about some examples of folk-rock and how it musically developed within the scene. I'm talking about Fairport's Leige & Leif time-scale wise.

What I really need is insight into the influences of folk-rock and how the pioneers started out with the fusion.

Does anyone out there have any pearls of wisdom? Recommend any sites/interviews of early Fairport members talking about their music??

Many thanks,

Ian Stephenson

Subject: RE: Help: How did folk-rock start?
From: Amos
Date: 04 Jan 03 - 12:11 PM

Newport, 1966, Dylan goes electric.

The Byrds, Crosby Stills and Nash, and James Taylor pick up the beat and make a genre.

A

Subject: RE: Help: How did folk-rock start?
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jan 03 - 12:18 PM

We just had this conversation recently with another student from your school Ian, titled "What is Folk Rock?" which had a lot of good insights from both sides the pond. I think I even contributed some websites. You might want to do a forum search--I'm guessing it is still within the 30 day realm.

Subject: RE: Help: How did folk-rock start?
From: pattyClink
Date: 04 Jan 03 - 12:29 PM

well, as I recall, the way it all started...John and Mitchy were gettin' kind of itchy just to leave the folk music behind. Zol and Denny workin' for a penny, tryin' to get a fish on the line. In a coffee house Sebastian sat, and after every number they'd pass the hat. McGuinn and McGuire just a-gettin' higher In L.A., you know where that's at--and no one's gettin' fat except Mama Cass. Zolly said "Denny, you know there aren't many" "Who can sing a song the way that you do, let's go south" Denny said "Zolly, golly, don't you think that I wish" "I could play guitar like you". Zol, Denny and Sebastian sat (at the Night Owl) And after every number they'd pass the hat. McGuinn and McGuire still a-gettin higher In L.A., you know where that's at. And no one's gettin' fat except Mama Cass. When Cass was a sophomore, planned to go to Swarthmore, but she changed her mind one day. Standin' on the turnpike, thumb out to hitchhike "Take me to New York right away" When Denny met Cass he gave her love bumps, Called John and Zol and that was the Mugwumps. McGuinn and McGuire couldn't get no higher, but that's what they were aimin' at, And no one's gettin' fat except Mama Cass. Mugwumps, high jumps, low slumps, big bumps don't you work as hard as you play. Make up, break up, everything is shake up, guess it had to be that way. Sebastian and Zol formed the Spoonful, Michelle, John, and Denny gettin' very tuneful, McGuinn and McGuire just a-catchin' fire In L.A., you know where that's at. And everybody's gettin' fat except Mama Cass Di-di-di-dit dit dit di-di-di-dit, who-o-oa ------ flute ------ Broke, busted, disgusted, agents can't be trusted and Mitchy wants to go to the sea. Cass can't make it, she says we'll have to fake it. we knew she'd come eventually. Greasin' on American Express cards, it's low rent, but keeping out the heat's hard. Duffy's good vibrations and our imaginations can't go on indefinitely And California dreamin' is becomin' a reality.

Subject: RE: Help: How did folk-rock start?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 04 Jan 03 - 12:50 PM

What is Folk Rock?

Don't believe anything until you've checked it for yourself, though.

Subject: RE: Help: How did folk-rock start?
From: Jeri
Date: 04 Jan 03 - 01:32 PM

As Ian's request is focused on British folk rock, specifically Fairport Convention who seemed to have kicked it off:

Some information here about their first album "Fairport Convention" (Island, 1967): http://www.slipcue.com/music/international/celtic/artists/fairport.html

"...they were trying to be the British version of the Jefferson Airplane, a roots-oriented psychedelic jugband."

Regarding the later Liege and Lief:

"They decided to try out an entirely new approach, foregoing almost all contemporary songwriting in favor of traditional English folk material, which they would play using aggressively modern, electric arrangements."

I think there was a mention in Folk Roots of the first traditional song to hit the pop charts, and it came out of a discussion on uk.music.folk. Can't remember what the song was, but it was circa 1958-ish.

It was inevitable anyway. People take the new instruments and styles and use them for existing songs. I believe Fairport were just the first to do it with Traditional British songs.

Subject: RE: Help: How did folk-rock start?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 04 Jan 03 - 02:21 PM

'New Electric Muse, the story of folk into Rock', a 3 CD set compiled in 1996 by Caslte Communications plc has everything you could ever wish to know about how Folk turned into Rock. It's a rerelease of a 4LP set by the same name released in 1975.

Artists include Swarb, Robin & Barry Dransfield, Bert Jansch, Andrew Cronshaw, the Carthy/Waterson ensemble, Battlefield Band, Capercaille and that's just on one CD!

Copious sleeve notes too many to transcribe, in a 40+ booklet.

Hope it's useful

LTS

Subject: RE: Help: How did folk-rock start?
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 04 Jan 03 - 02:30 PM

Ian - an influence to check out is my all time favourite rocking folk band HORSLIPS.
They did very interesting musical things with a mixture of heavy rock and traditional instruments. Unfortunately they were musically different from what people expected and never got the popular acclaim they deserved (folkies thought they were too rocky, and rockers too folkie). Their "Folk Rock Operas" The Tain (1973) and The Book of Invasions (1976) are amongst my all time favourite works.
Frontman, Charles O'Connor (Fiddle/mandoline and lead vocals), currently has a shop in Whitby http://www.thestonehouse.co.uk and is still involved with things musical. His Resolution suite (Angel on the Mantlepiece) was background music at my wedding. I didn't actually meet Charles until about a year later, but found him to be a really nice bloke, and very helpful.
Try getting in touch via his websites for a different slant on your topic.
Quack!
Geoff!

Subject: RE: Help: How did folk-rock start?
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jan 03 - 02:41 PM

I'm sure I've read somewhere that Fairport (or maybe it was just Ashley Hutchings) was influenced by, or at least very impressed with, the Youngblood's version of the song "Get Together". That song was originally released about 1965? but, if you close your eyes, it does sound like it could have come from an early Fairport album.

Allan

Subject: RE: Help: How did folk-rock start?
From: Les from Hull
Date: 04 Jan 03 - 02:46 PM

Ian - I reckon that Shirley Collins 'No Roses' album of 1971 was a pretty significant one, no the first of folk-rock but an important step on the path.

If you need to borrow recordings of any of these, please get in touch. I've got tons of this sort of stuff!

Les

Subject: RE: Help: How did folk-rock start?
From: Jeanie
Date: 04 Jan 03 - 03:24 PM

You'll find lots of information here: Troubadours - A Guide to British Folk-Rock

All the best !
- jeanie

Subject: RE: Help: How did folk-rock start?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Jan 03 - 03:34 PM

It was a term invented by the music marketing industry in order to try and label new styles that were coming forth spontaneously in the mid-sixties, primarily due to Bob Dylan's unprecedented achievement in marrying meaninful song lyrics about serious subjects to amplified music...and other people's attempts to match what he was doing or at least jump on the bandwagon.

The industry created the term "folk-rock", a term which Dylan himself always denied. As soon as the term existed, lots of people tried to write and play "folk-rock", and so it went.

The same sort of silly thing has happened repeatedly, due to the marketing process, as in the case of "alternative" music, for instance...or "new country". These are artificial, spurious labels which are aimed at increasing sales by identifying a product as a popular brand name, and the moment you have such a label you have a limitation upon imagination...and a great deal of bland imitation...which eventually becomes self-defeating as it destroys the orginality and freshness of the whole thing.

The main problem with music is this: the marketing system that sells it to make money.

And that is the main problem with most things in this society. The dollar rules, rather than sanity, rather than reason, rather than compassion, rather than Love, rather than Truth, rather than Wisdom, rather than the Soul.

The above message was NOT brought to you by the System or any of its commercial sponsors.

- LH

Subject: RE: Help: How did folk-rock start?
From: Bat Goddess
Date: 04 Jan 03 - 03:52 PM

I'll echo Liz the Squeak -- get either the re-issue or original LPs (which I'm looking at right now) of The Electric Muse: The Story of Folk Into Rock.

LP 1 - Side A "From the Acoustic Roots"
            Side B "From Reeling to Rockin'"

LP 2 - Side A "Blues Baroque and Beyond"
            Side B " Soho Needless to Say"

LP 3 - Side A "Roll Over Cecil (And Tell Vaughan Williams the News)"
            Side B "The Electric Adventure"

LP 4 - Side A "A New Tradition"
            Side B "End of a Honeymoon?"

Quite an audio history with really good notes. The booklet doesn't fit well on the scanner, though.

Linn

Subject: RE: Help: How did folk-rock start?
From: Ed.
Date: 04 Jan 03 - 04:01 PM

Or, even better, find a copy of the book of the same name.

Subject: RE: Help: How did folk-rock start?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 04 Jan 03 - 04:46 PM

There's a book? Wow, must look out for it.

Thanks!

LTS

Subject: RE: Help: How did folk-rock start?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Jan 03 - 04:59 PM

I strongly recommend you try to find a musician from Brighton (now) called Barry Walker - a blues guitarist - who was talking about using electric instruments to play folk music in about 1964/5 (not absolutely sure of the date - but about two years before the first formation of Steeleye Span) - to all the people he knew in the South London Music enclave (or ghetto, if you prefer), including McGuinness, Flint, and others and indeed to Lloyd (to whom he made many suggestions for "the Idiot"). I think he works at the university. Try to find the old habitues of the Tiger's Head in Lee Green.

Try not to swallow the propaganda machine's legends whole...

Subject: RE: Help: How did folk-rock start?
From: mack/misophist
Date: 04 Jan 03 - 06:08 PM

A "creole" is a special type of language. It originates when two monoglot communities live in close proximity. Elements of each will 'borrow' useful words from the other; working their way up to idioms and grammatical structures as things progress. Eventually, the dominant language will be so changed that it's origional home won't understand the new version. "Creole French" is an obvious example. Swahili and "pigeon English" are also creoles. When Prince Charles was introduced to the Parliament at Port Moseby in Papua/ New Guinea, the man said: "Bimby, long come number one son b'long Mizz Queen." Lest any one scream prejudice, Pidgin is the official language there.

The same kinds of things happen in all human endevours.

Subject: RE: Help: How did folk-rock start?
From: Dead Horse
Date: 04 Jan 03 - 06:09 PM

I thought it all started in N'Orleans with them coloured folks. But then they calls it Zydeco, now.
Just jesting, but the truth must be very close. Rock was integrated into folk waaaaaay back, before the grammyfone wuz invented.
Come to that, rock WAS folk, just sung a little livelier.

Subject: RE: Help: How did folk-rock start?
From: RolyH
Date: 05 Jan 03 - 02:38 PM

A good read is 'The Guv'nor and the Rise of Folk Rock' a biography of Ashley Hutchings.It covers the British folk rock scene in the early seventies,highlighting the definitive recordings and bands of that time and the part played in them by Hutchings. (ISBN 900924-32-3)

Subject: RE: Help: How did folk-rock start?
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jan 03 - 02:44 PM

You know something,

Even though the initial message made it clear that the question was about British Folk Rock, and other posts reinforced that point, we still still have Americans spouting off about what they think.

As if throwing us into a new world war wasn't enough.

I hate America.

Subject: RE: Help: How did folk-rock start?
From: RolyH
Date: 05 Jan 03 - 03:42 PM

To be fair GUEST, American folk rock was an early influence in Britain. Fairport Convention played a lot of thier early music in the Byrds and Jefferson Airplane style.Their early albums also included a few Dylan songs.It was playing that style which gave them the idea to concentrate on a purely 'British' type of folk rock.From them flourished a whole genre of music for a few years.

Folk Rock never caused any wars though (A few punch ups maybe........)

Subject: RE: Help: How did folk-rock start?
From: Cappuccino
Date: 05 Jan 03 - 04:10 PM

Guest Ian, try http://www.innerviews.org/inner/fairport.html
and
http://www.fcfansite.fsnet.co.uk/

I've also found Ian Burgess of Friends of Fairport very helpful - try e-mailing for help to:
[e-mail]


All the best
-Ian B

Subject: RE: Help: How did folk-rock start?
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jan 03 - 04:22 PM

Fair point, RolyH. And I apologise for my anti-american outburst.

Subject: RE: Help: How did folk-rock start?
From: Dead Horse
Date: 05 Jan 03 - 06:41 PM

I am certainly not an American.
But you cannot seperate British Folk-rock from that of the USA.
The origins of British FR is not seperate either.
Now, shall we discuss British Jaz? (without those annoying Yanks:-)..)

Subject: RE: Help: How did folk-rock start?
From: Cluin
Date: 05 Jan 03 - 07:24 PM

Liz, I have a 3 CD set entitled "New Electric Muse II - The Continuing Story of Folk Into Rock". It sounds very similar; they are calling it "Volume 2" of the same collection (there's a large booklet with this one too) and it covers the same time period as the first one. Probably just one more kick at the cat...

But what exactly is the relationship between skiffle and electric folk?

Subject: RE: Help: How did folk-rock start?
From: Stewie
Date: 06 Jan 03 - 08:36 AM

This may be of some interest in this context:

Click Here

--Stewie.

Subject: RE: Help: How did folk-rock start?
From: mooman
Date: 06 Jan 03 - 09:53 AM

Dear Ian,

Mellow Candle would have been Irish Fairport-contemporary folk-rockers time-wise.

This Mellow Candle link should provide some useful background. I have performed with and am still in touch with Alison Willian (O'Donnell) should some words "from source" be appropriate.

Best regards,

Richard

Subject: RE: Help: How did folk-rock start?
From: GUEST,Ian Stephenson
Date: 06 Jan 03 - 11:37 AM

Hello everyone again.

just to say thanks for all the info and suggestions. Some of those links proved really useful. I've finished it now and I think it went really well. Thanks again,

Ian S

Subject: RE: Help: How did folk-rock start?
From: GUEST,Peter from Essex
Date: 06 Jan 03 - 04:22 PM

There has always been crossover from popular music to "folk", to regard folk-rock as soemthing distinct from the general development of the tradition is, in my view, incorrect.

I really can't be bothered to look it up but IIRC the first use of a drum kit in an English folk band was Scan Tester's Imperials. (possibly Walter Bulwer beat him to it)

Subject: RE: Help: How did folk-rock start?
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 06 Jan 03 - 06:21 PM

I love this stuff: folklore in the making. Everybody has the answer! Somehow I think there may be the solutions to the world's problems contained in this thread.

Folk rock was not invented, no one at the ACME Company rushed off for a patent. Like every musical style in this world it sprouted from something else. I've studied Thomas Hardy's writings for many years with a view to learning about music that was played before the age of recording dawned. Check out "The Fiddler of the Reels" about a pre-electric bands who could thump out a tune so compelling that men and women danced until they fainted.

The late Lonnie Donnegan certainly had a bounce to his stuff; I remember drunken nights in folk clubs in the north of England in the 60s that predated the popular folk-rock era but would certainly have qualified. The name itself differed too -- folk rock seems to be what it was called in the US and electric folk was what we called it in England. It really hit the big time with Lindisfarne in the early 70s when they got several tub-thumpers (and some very pretty stuff like Lady Eleanor) into the charts.

Tons of people claim it as their own. Don't believe them ... or me. ;o)

Subject: RE: Help: How did folk-rock start?
From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton
Date: 06 Jan 03 - 06:23 PM

In the late 1950's, there were musicians who were working with rock and folk here in the States. It was a natural progression. Here's my take. Folk music became a divided camp between the academic or traditionalists and the young people coming along who were learning to play folk music. The young people preferred to be creative and not restricted by folk "authorities". It was a natural evolution here because there was interest in R and B and folk music combined by younger people. Bo Didley, B.B.King, Chuck Berry were not unknown in the folk communities and in fact Elvis was a folk fan. If you listen to the Rootop Singers doing "Walk Right In" my friend Erik Darling did a lot to build an accoustic music sound with a rockish beat. At the time it was not a popular thing to do...combine folk and rock but it was being done before it hit the charts. I remember hearing rock-styled music by black musicians playing electric guitar who had an interest in the folk music being played by basically white folks around them. Eventually, it would go across the Pond with the skiffle revival.

Subject: RE: Help: How did folk-rock start?
From: Allan C.
Date: 06 Jan 03 - 06:29 PM

Hey, Guest Ian! You're going to post your findings here, aren't you? I think many of us would be curious to discover what conclusions you may have made.