Moravian music?

Subject: Moravian music?
From: GUEST,Lynn T
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 02:20 PM

My partner, Richard, has started getting interested in early American historical reenactment, starting with the French & Indian War period. In researching some of the early gunsmiths in the Colonies and young America, he has learned that many, especially in Pennsylvania, were of Moravian extraction. They were pacifists, though they built guns (I understand one was shunned for selling too many to outsiders) and were apparently known for their musicality and for their peaceful cooexistence with the local Indian tribes. Richard told me that they were known for gathering in high places and making a great noise with their singing, which impressed the Indians no end. I gather that this is a far cry from either Shaker or Shape-note music.

We have sent away for a CD of Moravian music, which has not arrived yet, but I am wondering if anyone here on Mudcat is familiar with this style, and can recommend performers, sources, etc.   

Thanks!

Lynn

Subject: RE: Moravian music?
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 02:33 PM

I have quite an extensive collection of Czech and Moravian folk music as recorded by the group Cechomor. Unfortunately I don't have any "source" recordings.

It is worth listening in conjuction with Middle Europe history - a few weeks ago I found a web page that showed the political boundaries at the turn of each century since the Roman Empire. I'll try and find it again.

I am not too familiar with the timeline of American history, so for a point of reference about what century/decade would the migration have occurred? Possibly it may coincide with the acscendency of the Austro-Hungarian empire.

Subject: RE: Moravian music?
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 02:39 PM

Taking 1700 as a point of reference, what was the Moravian Kingdom/Empire had been subsumed within the Hungarian Monarchy, borders by the Crown of Bohemia

Subject: RE: Moravian music?
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 02:52 PM

It sounds like what you are after is the psalm and hymn singing of the Moravian Protestants, which is not much like modern Moravian folk music (part of the continuum of Danubian music).

I don't think Moravian Protestant music is all that sifferent from shape-note, maybe a bit more restrained and disciplined.

Subject: RE: Moravian music?
From: axman664
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 03:08 PM

From what I remember learning in college, the Moravians, whose primary settlements were Bethlehem, PA and Salem, NC, made extensive use of trombone choirs for accompaniment.

Subject: RE: Moravian music?
From: axman664
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 03:09 PM

Ah yeah, and the other thing I remember is that the Moravian enclave in Winston-Salem was not keen on researchers rummaging through their libraries and collections of music.

Subject: RE: Moravian music?
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 03:13 PM

Googling for "Moravian hymnal" gets you quite a lot.

Subject: RE: Moravian music?
From: ClaireBear
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 03:13 PM

There is a Moravian music festival next July in North Carolina -- it's an event that happens every third year. Might it be worth looking into going?

See here for details.)

And way yes to the trombones!

Subject: RE: Moravian music?
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 08:02 PM

Out of interest - can anyone post some historical background to Moravian settlement in US?

Subject: RE: Moravian music?
From: catspaw49
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 09:37 PM

The first settlement in Ohio was by a Moravian missionary, David Zeissberger so also check in east Ohio as well as western PA. Check this previous thread for some additional info from a few years back.

CLICK HERE for thread

The link to the church in my last post on that thread may be dead now but the other info is still valid.


Sorry I can't help much more than that!

Spaw

Subject: RE: Moravian music?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 10:01 PM

of related & similar interest:

"Mariachi music remains Mexico's national song.

Another important music style is the traditional norteño, or northern tunes, which has been the basis for such variations as banda music. These styles are popular in many regions of Mexico. Norteño, similar to Tejano music, arose in the 1830s and 40s in the Rio Grande region, south of Texas. Influenced by Bohemian immigrant miners, its rhythm was derived from the European polka dance popular during the 1800s. Banda, similar to norteño in musical form, originated from the Mexico state of Sinaloa during the 1960s."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music_of_Mexico

I have fond but very vague memories of rural traditional Moravian Easter/Spring Folk Festivals back in the early 1990's..

Subject: RE: Moravian music?
From: catspaw49
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 10:16 PM

Geeziz punkman.....What the hell are you smokin' and can you send me some?

SPB-Co-OP..............Try this info on Schoenbrunn and the links on that page for some info on early Ohio Moravian settlement and David Zeisberger................Clik-ka-dee doo dah

Spaw

Subject: RE: Moravian music?
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 10:36 PM

Forget Mr. Spew - as he acknowledges - he is never much help.

I first became acquainted with the Moravian Church through their Trombone Choir. (Although by heritage comes through them)

Can you imagine the sound of 50 trombones and ONLY trombones?

It is better than the "Music Man's 76" - because it is ONLY trombones with no parade.

IT IS NOT !!!

- a "brass choir"

or

a "Candian Brass Ensemble"

or

a "Brass Quartet"

it is

IT is

IT IS IS, IS, TROMBONES!!! Who could ask for anything finer?

http://www.downeymoravian.org/links.htm

http://www.moravianmusic.org/

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

(Take that back - Mr. Spew can sometimes keep a thread alive - even after all hope is lost.) Glad to see you are still kickin' Catspaw

Subject: RE: Moravian music?
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 10:41 PM

Jumpin Jehosephat!

Am I senile, alzheimy afflicted, or truly one of the banned band?

That was ME up above.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

I REALLY LIKE being barred from "below the line" I do not know how you did it...but life is full of challenges. WELL DONE!

Subject: RE: Moravian music?
From: catspaw49
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 11:42 PM

Greg, you're still too young for Alzheimers......more like Halfzeimers in your case. I blame mine on too many times and hours on the heart-lung bypass machine.

Spaw

To paraphase DuPont---"Barely Living Through Chemistry"

Subject: RE: Moravian music?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 03:32 AM

Can I suggest that you go onto YOUTUBE and put "Moravian Folk" into the SEARCH.... you will find some there for sure.
Best wishes, Mike.

Subject: RE: Moravian music?
From: Artful Codger
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 03:54 AM

Brass music has been popular in that region for a long time--thank the Germans. Is it any surprise that Sousa was Czech?

Moravia is a mountainous region, with a rich tradition of hollars. That may explain why the Pennsylvania Moravians would have "gathered in high places" to do their singing--inside, it would have been deafening!

In searching for Czech and Moravian songs, most I've found have been so simple in shape and underlying harmony as to be deathly dull--"Three Blind Mice" seems a step up. But the area also has a strong gypsy influence from nearby Hungary and Romania, so at least the dance music rocks. And the drinking songs aren't bad, either.

Many of the songs and tunes are in "modal" scales. In fact, some of the flutes play most naturally in Lydian. Two-part singing in thirds is common, which may explain why tunes very often end on the third rather than the tonic.

Subject: RE: Moravian music?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 07:37 AM

Czech and Moravian music are rather different - broadly speaking Czech music is part of a continuum with regions to the west while Moravian music is the westernmost extension of the idioms of the Danube basin. Oompah bands are Czech (and German, and Austrian), fiddle/clarinet/dulcimer is Moravian (and Hungarian, and Romanian).

I find it rather hard to believe there would have been enough trombones in Moravia to make the trombone band possible. Maybe the American Moravians happened to live near Elkhart, Indiana and got them at trade price from the Conn factory?

Subject: RE: Moravian music?
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 08:53 AM

Can I recommend no beter organisation than 'Dvorana' to introduce you to Czech/Slovakian folk music/dancing which includes Moravian.

I have had the good fortune to experince 2 very enjoyable holidays with them, you can do no better than going to the source! This is an example from their programme this year:

http://dvorana.cz/dance/2008/folk/index.php?page=folk&sub=program1

Subject: RE: Moravian music?
From: GUEST,LynnT
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 09:12 AM

This is wonderful! I am so impressed!

I understand the Moravians were known for all kinds of metalwork; Richard's interest in them grew out of his research into gunsmithing. He says they spent time in Germany en route America, and that may be where they picked up the craft. If they could make rifled gun barrels, surely they could make trombones.

Lynn

Subject: RE: Moravian music?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 11:24 AM

Why Germany? There were large iron mines and ironworks in Moravia from the end of the 17th century.
Anyway, massed bands of a single sort of instrument are very ATYPICAL for Eastern Europe, becuase you played with what you had.

Subject: RE: Moravian music?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 11:46 AM

Gargoyle mades his point rather effectively. I get it now, they played trombones.

There's even a FAQ site about Moravian trombones:

http://webpages.charter.net/gmtc/GMTCFAQ.html

Gargoyle asked, 'Can you imagine the sound of 50 trombones and ONLY trombones?'

Well, I can, because once I went to a party where two skilled trombonists (members of the symphony) played background. I was quite surprised at their skill and the beauty of the music. It was obvious that modern music doesn't give a trombonist a chance to show what she can do.

However, the two of them were at the limit of what I could stand for volume. If there were fifty trombones, they would have to be outdoors and I would have to be able to move away as far as I wanted.

=====
I used to attend a church (built 1922) which had two arched niches on either side of the choir loft. I've learned that these niches were originally (say 1600) for brass players, such as the town waits, who would play on feast days such as Christmas.

Clearly brass instruments, which we think of as expensive, hard to play, and unusual, were much more common in the past.

Subject: RE: Moravian music?
From: Artful Codger
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 05:49 PM

Ahem, the distinction between Czech and Moravian music is hardly that distinct, as one can tell from dialects in lyrics and reported points of origin. True, Moravian music has stronger gypsy (and Polish) influences, but both the Czech and Moravian regions have been overrun by the same waves of invaders for century after century--they have more in common than in difference.

Subject: RE: Moravian music?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 06:18 PM

The Dvorana programme, unfortunately, is just for dancers. No opportunity to learn any songs or instrumental tunes, or even anything about them, as far as I can see.

Subject: RE: Moravian music?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 09:48 PM

The thing is, Moravia is a place but it's also a church. It has been going since the 1400's, and you can Google it (The Moravian Church) and get the whole story.

Moravians and their church have spread widely, when a song has a source such as "Moravian hymn," it is apt to be music of that church, rather than simply from that region.

I have listened to some of them on line, and so far they range from the plain to the pretty. It is about what I would expect of congregational music from early centuries.

When I was a child, I learned a Moravian hymn in school:

Day now is done, there's a star in the west.
Still is the land and the twilight is deep.
All things are ready to turn to their rest.
Father, we thank thee for this good sleep.

The tune was quietly beautiful, and I still like to sing it.

---

Click to play

Subject: ADD: Skautska Vecerka/Scouts' Evening Song (Czech)
From: Artful Codger
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 07:00 AM

I may have found the text of your song:


Skautská večerka

Zapad den, slunce svit, vymizel z údolí, z temen
Hor, odpočiň každý, kdos Boží tvor.

V lesa klín, padl stín, hasne již vatry zář,
Svatý mír, kráčí z hor, usíná Boží tvor.


The title means "Scouts' Evening Song" and, not surprisingly, first-hand accounts relate that the scouts would form a circle at sundown, link hands and sing this song. It may have been Sovietized from a hymn, as it only refers to "God's creatures", without explicit thanks to God as in your translation. But perhaps not; the Czech word "hymna" can mean just "inspirational song"; they even have soccer hymns.

I've been unable to turn up either a religious or longer variant when searching with just the first four or even two words, nor have I found any history, author or indication of origin. A number of Czech sites with scouting connections quote only the first four words, suggesting that it serves as a sort of theme song.

Subject: RE: Moravian music?
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 09:19 AM

'Jack Campin' - I think you will find that 'Dvorana' will give you all the griff you need, they have the right contacts! The courses I went on taught us songs too.

Subject: RE: Moravian music?
From: Dennis the Elder
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 10:15 AM

Lynn an all others interested
In 1744 a Moravian settlement was foundedon the edge of Pudsey in West Yorkshire which was named Fulneck, coicidence was I was there as part of my business yesterday. It is an exceedingly interestin place with many listed buildings. In 1753 a school was built there for the residents and is still in opperation and has arround 450 students (See wikipedia). Some 50 years ago whilst at school one of our annual fixtures was at Fulneck school and I remember well the stone baths and stone seats and floors of the school, also the wonderful food we were fed with following the match.
I will again be in the area next week and I will call into the Craft Shop if open, unfortunatly the last day this year for the Museum was yesterday, yet another coincidence, this time unfortunate. If there is any information regarding their music in addition to that you have already obtained I will try to forward via this thread, please be patient as I am not sure exactly when the Craft Shop is open or when I will be able to call if I miss out next week.

Subject: RE: Moravian music?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 11:39 AM

I've sent Joe a MIDI of the song I remember as Moravian.

When I was in grade school, we had a set of music texts called 'New Music Horizons.' This was in Chicagoland, and our books seemed to include a noticeable amount of music from eastern Europe.

No surprise. For example, I have read that Chicago has the largest number of Polish people outside of Poland. Recently we were in Chicagoland, and we visited the Czech and Slovak museum. (small but charming) Moravia is now part of the Czech Republic and was also covered by the museum. I looked for music, but it doesn't have a gift shop yet.

Earlier, we had landed at Midway airport. It is the only airport I have ever been in where they announced Mass over the PA.

=========
Dennis, that is most interesting about the community in Fulneck.

Subject: RE: Moravian music?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 12:15 PM

The New Music Horizons series was published by Silver Burdett. So far, we only have one of that series indexed in our School Songbook Index, but I think I have other books in that series. Guess I'd better get to work. Leeneia's MIDI posted.
Thanks, Leeneia.

---

Click to play: Day Now Is Done

Subject: RE: Moravian music?
From: John J
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 12:20 PM

Nowt to do with the music, but there's a Moravian Settlement in East Manchester (England).

It's a lovely backwater of peace and quiet, with some beautiful buildings.

Every September they have an 'open' weekend, but I always miss it!

John

Subject: RE: Moravian music?
From: Gulliver
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 05:01 PM

There were a few hundred "Moravians" in Dublin in the 19th century, but they were all English and Irish - they belonged to the Moravian church. One of their churches, in Harry Street, was turned into a pub - McDaids. The old stained glass windows are still there. Their preachers travelled around the country, but politics crept in (alway does in Ireland) and they split into different sects and eventually faded away. Unfortunately don't know anything about their music.

More about the Moravian church here.

Don

Subject: RE: Moravian music?
From: Dennis the Elder
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 02:20 PM

Sorry Lynn unfortunatly the Museum at Fulneck was closed when I called and the Craft shop appears to have disappeared. I will make other enquieries, but at moment I have drawn a blank.

Subject: RE: Moravian music?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 03:16 PM

Members of the Moravian Band of Salem, NC, enlisted in the Confederate army, and became the nucleus of the 26 North Carolina band. They played at Gettysburg (joined by the band of the 11th), under their director J. A. Leinbach, their music (polkas and waltzes) noted by the British observer with General Lee.
Their music books and other artifacts are preserved at the Wachovia Museum and in the archives of the Moravian Music Foundation, Winston-Salem, NC.