Guitar tuning fault

Subject: Guitar tuning fault - Help!!
From: Rumncoke
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 04:25 AM

Does anyone know what is wrong when a guitar, tuned using an electronic tuner is then 'off' when the strings are checked against eachother?

The neck seems to be straight and exactly as it should be.

Could it be that the bridge has moved so the strings have shortened? Would that cause this effect?

Clutching at straws here so anyone got any clues?

Anne

Subject: RE: Guitar tuning fault
From: Peace
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 04:29 AM

"Does anyone know what is wrong when a guitar, tuned using an electronic tuner is then 'off' when the strings are checked against eachother?"

First, it often depends on which chords you are playing. Electric tuners are almost pitch perfect. Chords are 'relative' in the sense that a guitar can be in tune for the C chord and sound slightly off when you change to play in the key of E (for example). It is possible that your frets are not true or that there is a slight bow in the neck. Also, as you said, the bridge (saddle) may have worn or moved a bit. What make of guitar is it?

Subject: RE: Guitar tuning fault
From: mooman
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 04:35 AM

Sounds like a intonation problem.

This could have several causes:

- the bridge has indeed moved (worst case scenario)
- the strings or some of them are old (easily fixed)
- there is a compensation problem at the saddle or nut (easily fixed if you know how)
- the action is too high (possible need to lower the nut or saddle or a neck reset in a worst case scenario)
- incorrect fret placement (unlikely if it was OK before)

I would start by checking the easy and obvious things first like action and age of strings. What sometimes happens is that, with wear, strings can wear the grooves in the nut and saddle slots causing slight intonation problems. I have fixed many of these but you need a very fine needle file. Any decent guitar tech could help with that.

Hope this helps a little

Peace

moo (sometime guitar repairer)

Subject: RE: Guitar tuning fault
From: mooman
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 04:37 AM

Also, as Peace says, "exact" tuning as per an electronic tuner sometimes leads to an out of tune guitar as a guitar does not have perfect pitch (i.e. the fretting is a compromise). If everything is well set up, however, that should be minimal.

Peace

moo

Subject: RE: Guitar tuning fault
From: s&r
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 04:55 AM

Duff strings, or old strings are likely. All the other things are possible as above. Strangest I have come across was a Giannini which had a wide first fret - cured by fitting a 'zero' fret

Stu

Subject: RE: Guitar tuning fault
From: Rumncoke
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 05:12 AM

Its a Framus Texan.

The neck is straight - that is the frets are level when checked with a straightedge both up and down and diagonally. There doesn't seem to be wear on the frets.

The action is low.

Checking with the tuner, the 5th/4th fret is sharp by up to one red light on each string - that is it is in tune as itself but not on the fret used to tune the next string up.

Could it be the plastic strip in the bridge? After three decades it is rather grooved.

Am I just being too picky over this?

I can hear a beat between two strings which I would normally adjust out - but then the tuner tells me that one string is slightly flat or sharp when played open.

Just because I can hear or see a difference - does it matter?


Anne

Subject: RE: Guitar tuning fault
From: mooman
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 05:44 AM

From your description it sounds like the saddle (the plastic strip in the bridge) could have become worn by string wear and tuning (the string acts as a sort of file against the plastic or bone material, cutting itself a deeper groove and causing slight intonation problems. The same could be true of the nut for similar reasons. Either could be recut, or if necessary, replaced rather easily.

With some minor and inexpensive adjustment from a good guitar technician or repairman and a new set of strings, there should be an improvement. If you like your guitar it is certainly worth it. If you are handy and would like to try to do it yourself, you'll need a special needle file (Stew-Mac sell them) and Frank Ford's excellent site gives very good guidance on how to accomplish the job.

Peace

moo

Subject: RE: Guitar tuning fault
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 06:11 AM

I can hear a beat between two strings which I would normally adjust out - but then the tuner tells me that one string is slightly flat or sharp when played open.

Just because I can hear or see a difference - does it matter?

I'm guessing but on that one it may just be possible that both are right!

One thing you need to know is that there are various tuning systems. Your electronic tuner and your guitar are based on a tuning system known as 12-TET (12 tone equal temperament). This tuning system is a compromise where the frequency difference betwwen each note is divided equaly (others will favour one key over another).

The law of physics and harmonics do not work out like that though (blame pythagoras for this - look up his comma and circle of fifths on google) and an interval such as a perfect 5th does not exist on the TET system, it is a fraction out.

What I think you will find happens when Mooman and Peace tweak their guitars is that they are moving towards a tuning with say a pure 5th for one key. The downside is that moves like that throw other keys further off and the very reason for TET is to have everything as compromised as possible.

Well at least thats what I think - I get confused on this... Whatever, I think to some degree you can use your own judgement and go for what you prefer to hear.

Subject: RE: Guitar tuning fault
From: mooman
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 06:19 AM

Guest, Jon

That's not quite what I meant or how I work! What appears to have happened here is that, over the years, the guitar has moved away from its original "compromise" tuning as you mention, possibly due to saddle wear from the description. What I try to do is to restore the instrument to its best "compromise" tuning across all keys, not a pure 5th in one. That's more or less what Frank also aims for on frets.com. Hope that clarifies a little.

I always approach guitar setup (and I do a lot of it) as a "holistic" job with a variety of contributing factors.

Peace

moo

Subject: RE: Guitar tuning fault
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 06:26 AM

thanks Mooman

Subject: RE: Guitar tuning fault
From: The Beast of Farlington
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 06:37 AM

I have noticed this problem too since I bought a better electronic tuner (Korg)

I have a 21 year old Yamaha acoustic guitar - time for a service, perhaps.

Subject: RE: Guitar tuning fault
From: Mooh
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 07:07 AM

You shouldn't be able to place a straight-edge along the frets and have them line up, that would indicate no relief.

Get thee to a tech or luthier and get a full set-up and fret dress if necessary. As has been mentioned, nut, saddle, frets, new strings, relief, and anything else which affects the geometry of the guitar.

Fwiw, I've encountered quite a number of older instruments which apparently were designed for heavier strings than what folks commonly use these days, and some tweaking of the saddle has usually fixed the intonation.

The worst fixes might include re-situating the saddle or re-setting the neck, but those don't sound like your problems. At any rate, without seeing your guitar, a thorough diagnosis is impossible.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: Guitar tuning fault
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 07:29 AM

So and a bit off topic...

Mooman, you mentioned inexpensive adjustments but... I've got a Fylde Falstaff that one day I might get completely overhauled and I think the belly has moved up a bit near the bridge. Have you any idea what sort of ballpark figure I should be considering as reasonable should a good UK based repairman undertake the work?

Subject: RE: Guitar tuning fault
From: Torctgyd
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 07:36 AM

I've often thought recently that the electronic tuners are too accurate for the musician's good. That is that you can waste ages trying to get that last fraction of a Hz for no noticable change in pitch. Thank God I play a melodeon that I can't tune!

Subject: RE: Guitar tuning fault
From: mooman
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 07:52 AM

Hi Jon,

Exactly where has the belly moved up? Between the the bridge and the fretboard or, more likely, between the bridge and the bottom of the guitar? If it is the latter, it's not normally a big problem (even normal on some guitars) unless it has bellied excessively. Let me know and I'll try to suggest a figure for a general overhaul/check/setup that should be reasonable in the UK. Where are you based (if you are the Jon I've met then I already know!), I might even be able to suggest someone if you don't already have your own repairman.

As it's a Fylde Falstaff it's well worth getting into top playing condition as they're a smashing guitar!

Peace

moo

Subject: RE: Guitar tuning fault
From: pavane
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 07:56 AM

If you tune to the equal tempered scale as noted above, then you WILL always be liable to get beat notes. For example, a 5th comes out at 1.495 or so instead of 1.5. (The actual size of a semitone is the 12th root of 2. An interval of a 5th is this number to the power of 7 (semitones) - easily checked in Excel)

Subject: RE: Guitar tuning fault
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 08:14 AM

I think it has come up behind the bridge. I could be wrong but it looks to me as if the saddle slopes down slightly towards the fret board. Behind the saddle there is a slight but noticible gap between 2 peices of wood - or is it a split? I can't see it the other side of the bridge. The back of the belly seems slightly arched up.

I am Jon Freeman, and yes we have met. I am in North Norfolk. John Hullah could (if he undertook repairs - not sure if he did) have been a candidate in this area but he retired due to arthritis.

Subject: RE: Guitar tuning fault
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 08:15 AM

All Fyldes come with a lifetime guarantee for the original purchaser.

eric

Subject: RE: Guitar tuning fault
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 08:17 AM

I'm not the original purchaser. I bought mine second hand (actually I think it was 3rd hand) for £350 about 1990 I think.

Subject: RE: Guitar tuning fault
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 08:45 AM

I've seen Framus Texans with nylon strings (on ebay, not a good guide to correct practice!). I'm not sure if all were. If yours is one such, it is not going to matter whether you check the neck relief (your test with a straight edge) with the strings on or off. If it's a steel strung guitar then quite likely the neck will be dead straight with no strings on, and the string tension will create the relief as strings are tightened.

Moo is right, there should be a slight forward relief, it's just the maths of the fact that when you fret the guitar, the string should leave every fret at the same angle, and the bridge is of course a bit above the level of the frets if they were in a straight line and it continued to the bridge. It isn't going to produce the difference you are citing.

Start by checking each string at the octave. It doesn't even matter if the string is all that in tune to start with. Play the octave as a harmonic. Now fret the octave. Are the two notes the same? Your tuner may help you decide.

If they are, then, allowing for the tiny difference caused by the stiffness and thickness of the strings as they cross the bridge and at the nut, (which is why bridges are angled, or even are made in two pieces like Takemine do, and why Buzz Felten nuts exist) the octave on the fretboard is indeed in the middle of the string.

DO it for every string.

If that is OK, then unless the fault is of an identical size at the nut and bridge (an unlikely coincidence) the problem is not the nut or bridge. It might be the actual fretting of the neck, but there are other possibilities.

If that is NOT ok, start by looking at the bridge. As I recollect the Texan has a classical style bridge, and it's possible that someone has lowered the plastic saddle so much that the wood in front of it is what the strings are bearing on. I reckon this would produce about the size of difference you seem to have. If so, or if the saddle is missing, put it back how it should be and if the action is now too high to play you have a different problem - probably (snce you say your neck is straight) a neck set or major distortion to the front of the guitar..   

If your guitar is a tailpiece one, then it's very likely that the saddle has been moved (if it is not stuck to the top). If you're lucky there may be a light patch on the front of the guitar to show you roughly where it ought to be. If the bridge will slide about, adjust it by ear or with the aid of the tuner until it comes right.

Check the nut visually. Are the slots all in good condition, or do they allow the strings to wiggle as they get to the fretboard? This is unlikely from your description as then the first fret would be very flat, the second fret less flat, and so on.

If the saddle seems to be in the right place (you can try measuring witha ruler as a first rough check) and the nut looks OK, change the strings. Strings do develop a taper after a while, but it's unusual for them all to do it at the same time.

If the above does not point to a cure, it may very well not be worth fixing it on a Framus - hang it on the wall as a collectable at best, and buy a modern, playable guitar: alternatively stick to root chords!

Subject: RE: Guitar tuning fault
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 10:07 AM

I once read somewhere that a favourite way guitarmakers have for tuning a guitar is to tune to a single note on all the strings, normally an E - so on the fisrt string it's played open, on the second string fret it at the fifth fret, third string fret it at the 9th fret and so on.

Seems to work pretty well. The idea would be that it all balances out across the guitar.

Subject: RE: Guitar tuning fault
From: Grab
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 10:14 AM

Re the relief issue, if it's a nylon-strung guitar then relief isn't really an issue. As I guess you know, classicals don't have relief or bridge compensation - they work on the theory that nylon strings are light and don't change their pitch much when moved a comparatively long way. So they just raise the action at the bridge to allow the strings to clear the frets, and the extra height on the action doesn't bugger the pitch or your fingers too much with the nylon strings. But the symptoms of lack of relief and too low an action will be string buzz rather than tuning problems, so it doesn't sound like this is a problem on Rumncoke's guitar.

Graham.

Subject: RE: Guitar tuning fault
From: Rumncoke
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 11:35 AM

I used the straight edge after the guitar had been left unstrung for several months, so that might acount for the lack of 'relief'.

It is steel strung, I do use lighweight strings, and change them regularly as modern strings go dead a lot faster than those I used to get from the GDR years ago.

The plastic strip is the end of the strings vibration, it is still high enough to suport the string for all the chords I use.

I know the maths of sound but not really how it applies to music, just the relationship between frequency and the physical body producing it. Perhaps if I take a look around on the 'net I will be able to see if there is someting dreadful going wrong or if it just the natural nature of wood and wire not conforming to the imutability of silicon and electrons.

The Framus is an old friend, I bought it for £25 about 35 years ago so I can't complain about the durability of the instrument, but I would be lost without it.

I have tried out various instruments over the years, and found one last year which sounded right and I could get my hand around the neck - but it was just under £1100. I tried another one one by the same maker same size and shape and it sounded dead, so even at that price the voice can be either good or bad.   

Anne

Subject: RE: Guitar tuning fault
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 11:44 AM

When I tune with the tuner, the B string never seems to sound right. I usually adjust the B string by ear, then I'm happy.

It's easy to overlook the simple approach to these problems.

Like a lot of people I have a hard time telling whether a string that's off is a bit sharp or a bit flat. I find that if I play the strings and sing the notes they are producing, then I can feel the difference in my throat. The throat tightens for a string that's sharp and loosens for the string that's flat.

Subject: RE: Guitar tuning fault
From: mooman
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 11:48 AM

I still recommend an initial trip round www.frets.com as I blickied above as it will quickly point you to some of the obvious things to look for. My guess, from the information presented but without seeing the guitar, is still a change in intonation caused by wear of the saddle (plastic strip) and/or nut, either of which is easily fixed.

I would always repair a guitar of personal value to the player, whether a "famous name" or not. I have just sold my €2000 handbuilt guitar as my €500 Korean-made archtop acoustic both sounds better to me and is more versatile for what I do. Same recently with a very expensive mandolin which I sold (after 21 years owning and playing it nearly every day) and bought a relatively inexpensive model from a new young maker which is better in almost every respect. "Name" doesn't necessarily equate to a good sound or value to the owner.

Peace

moo

Subject: RE: Guitar tuning fault
From: Peace
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 12:23 PM

Ain't that the truth, moo.

My old Martin has been through the wars. I wouldn't get rid of the ol' girl for any amount of money. She's not the best sounding guitar anymore, but there'll never be another that touches my heart the way she does, and when I have serious writing to do, that's the machine I do it on.

I felt a bit like that when I played a Telecaster, but I wasn't good enough to bring out the soul of that guitar. The Martin however . . . .

Subject: RE: Guitar tuning fault
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 01:47 PM

If a steel string guitar is left unstrung for several months it may very well take several days to settle down again properly once brought to pitch.

Now you have digested all of our advices, what is the situation with the octave? Is the 12th fret the same as the harmonic, sharp, or flat? If it's sharp, how much sharp according to the lights on your tuner?

Does your tuner have variable pitch, so you can tell us what A would have to be set to to show the fretted string at the 5th fret, and the fretted string at the 12th fret as being respectively correct? Are all strings the same or is the B worse than the high E, and the low E worse than the A which is worse than the D (I've left out the G which is sometimes wound and sometimes not, on purpose for that very reason).

Subject: RE: Guitar tuning fault
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 02:35 PM

Hah! I think I have it.

I've had a rummage on the internet, and all the Texans I can see (12s aa well as 6s) have a very unusual bridge. It doesn't have pegs like a usual modern flattop, and it isn't a tailpiece like many archtops.

It's a thread-through bridge, so you thread the strings through a part of the bridge assembly (roughly parallel to the top and still outside the front of it) then wiggle them round a saddle that is height adjustable with a knurled nut at each end.

Now I've had a Framus 12 like that to pieces (it's at a friend's house at the moment, so I can't check whether it's a Texan or not), and the whole bridge assembly is BOLT-ON. I think the securing bolts are underneath the adjustable saddle, and there are some more nuts inside each of the little metal caps at the end ofthe moustache of the bridge.

The one I had to pieces was also sharp up the neck. I'd already had huge fun getting a spanner with slim enough jaws to do the trussrod (7 mm I think) and eventually I had to enlarge the hole for the trussrod nut a bit, all covered when the cover went back on. When I got the bridge off, the holes the securing bolts went through were oval. Under tension, and perhaps previous fiddling, the whole bridge assembly had slid towards the nut. On mine the front was also badly bellied (previous user had put 13s on it, and IMHO 13s is too much for almost any 12-string front or neck) and I had to make a home made equivalent to a "bridge doctor" too, but it doesn't sound as if you have that problem.

So I marked the front with a fine felt-tip pen, extended the ovals of the holes backwards a bit (you could shim the holes if you are getting anal about it) left the strings off, assembled the bridge loosely, slid it back along the guitar until I could see it was about an eighth of an inch (a bit more on the bass side) back from where it had been, and then tightented the securing screws up to fart past grunt.   Strung it. Watched to make sure the assembly did not sidle forward again. Bingo! Near as bollox is to swearing!

I've left the felt-tip marks on so I can see if it does it again. If it did, a bit of not-too-secure glue and 24 hours before re-stringing ought to sort it. If you use the right felt-tip, you will be able to polish the mark off again.

On mine someone had also deepened the slots in the bridge (no doubt to try to lower the action to make it playable despite the bellying) to the extent that the strings were "ringing" on part of the steel bridge assembly. That I dealt with by a real bodge - cut a section of wire from a wire coathanger, put a bit of glue on it and held it the tail side of the saddle while I brought the strings back up to pitch. It pinched in tight behind the saddle, so also effectively moving the saddle back a bit, and the existing slots in the saddle then were just far enough out of the way not to buzz. The thread-through holes were accurate enough that the strings still lined up correctly.

It never had had any balls to the sound, very quiet for a 12, and it still hasn't. Tried 10s, really too light. Playing 11s now. Before it went to visit my friend some people were really rude about the sound ("I can't see why you play that thing", thanks Simon) but I thought it had a nice middl-ey jangley singing sound, easy to sing to, not so loud you had to yell to get over it, and by then it was playing really easy and mostly staying in tune, unlike many 12s over an evening. A local semi-pro said it sounded "delightful" but I think that's going too far!

Not a patch on the Hagstrom 12 I am playing now, not as loud as Simon's Yamaha 12, and nowhere near as loud as Slats' Washburn 12, but vaguely all right.

Incidentally, quite a number of Framuses on ebay right now, mostly the 12s.

But there are Texans including 6s at various prices on the internet in various places at various prices, and if you really do like the sound, you may want to let your fingers do the walking.

Subject: RE: Guitar tuning fault
From: Rumncoke
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 08:34 PM

I just dissassembled the bridge, found nothing wrong and put it back.

Someone has taken it off in the past as under the outside triangles of the 'moustache'one of the dished washers was the other way up to the other side. I have replaced them both with the edge to the wood rather than away from it, as I thought that would be the most logical and string force resisting. It has been like that for the last several decades - I have not lent it to anyone in 25 years at least.

I trimmed away the plastic which had been pressed forward into little horns under the strings.

The harmonics are right on the 12th fret, fretting the note, the lowest two strings are two lights sharp and the others are one light sharp.

On the 5/4th frets the problem has reduced - the upper strings are now in tune. Only the lower ones are sharp. Maybe there is just something in how the bridge is set up that is at fault.

My Framus has always been considered a quiet guitar, but its voice is sweet and it stays in tune for weeks.

When I used to go out singing I was always lending him out, being the only guitar still in tune by the second half.

If I can only learn how to look after it, I hope that I will not need another guitar. It was built in Bavaria, tested by Muller - with an umlat over the u, in 1967 I believe.

Anne

Subject: RE: Guitar tuning fault
From: Peace
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 08:36 PM

The bridge has to be angled a bit maybe.

Subject: RE: Guitar tuning fault
From: mooman
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 09:53 AM

Anne,

Take a look at the nut also and check that the "bearing surface" that the strings pass across is in a straight line (viewed from the side) for all strings as they leave the nut. Wound strings, in particular, can eat into the grooves and change the intonation. Check also that the action at the nut is not too high. If it is, fretting the lower strings will cause them to go sharper than fretting the higher ones. Frank Ford's site mentioned above has nice pictures illustrating this.

The actions you have carried out tend to suggest that some adjustment is still needed at the bridge/saddle end to improve the intonation. Basically the bearing surface the strings pass over needs to be a tad nearer the end of the guitar and I would take heed of Richard's advice above as he knows the model.

Peace

moo

Subject: RE: Guitar tuning fault
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 11:29 AM

I reckon if you oval up the securing holes on the bass side of the bridge about an eighth of an inch (towards the tail, of course), and pull the bridge assembly firmly towards the tail of the guitar while tightening the securing nuts screws VERY TIGHT INDEED you may get it about right. Mark the front, even if only with removable tape, before you start, so you can see how much change you have made when it all goes back together.

I think one reason these are pretty stable tuning is the multilaminar neck, which I am sure must be very rigid. But do NOT apply shock to the neck or it becomes, I am told, multidelaminar.

Mooh is right about checking the nut too, but if it was the nut that was the problem you'd hear all the fretted chords in the root position that involve open strings being absolute wolves.

Subject: RE: Guitar tuning fault
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 01:54 PM

One trick to using an electronic tuner is to tune the to the notes you use most often, not necessarily the open strings. It's more important to me to have the G notes at the third fret on the two E strings in perfect tune than to have the open E notes there. If the E notes are off a smidge I can live with it. But if the three G notes in a regular G chord aren't in tune with each other it'll drive me bonkers. I also tune to the D note at the third fret of the second string, not the open B note.

Of course, if your intonation is really out this little adjustment won't work. The best you can do then is compromise and have, say, the fretted note just a bit sharp while the open string is a bit flat. Or you could just consign such a guitar to the land of guitars-suitable-only-for-slide-playing.

Subject: RE: Guitar tuning fault
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 07:17 PM

B-Dub, I think this nice if not wonderful old guitar is going to be OK (I hope)