Performance group title problem: Cariad

Subject: BS: Performance group title problem: Cariad
From: Helen
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 10:20 PM

Hi all,

Last year we decided on a name for the little group my sister, brother-in-law & I formed to perform at weddings etc. After a bit of discussion we decided to call ourselves Cariad which is a fine Welsh term of endearment meaning "love" or "sweetheart". My sister & I identify with our Grandmother's birthplace being Wales, so we decided to build on that. The other option we considered was Rhiannon or Cariad Rhiannon but decided that Cariad was short and sweet.

On my recent trip down to Tasmania I noticed that a band called Cariad was listed to perform at both the Cygnet FolkFest and the Georgetown FolkFest. At Georgetown I spoke to Peter in that group, who is Welsh, to try to find another name or a phrase containing the word Cariad for our group. (As an aside: Peter said that it was a coincidence that the other name they had considered for their group was also Rhiannon because he has written a song about Rhiannon of the Birds. Their group formed about a year ago as well. So spooky timing as well as naming.)

Anyway, Peter couldn't think of anything useful so I am throwing it open to the creative and lateral thinking talents of Mudcat, especially the Welsh people and Welsh-ophiles.

Help!!

Helen

Subject: RE: BS: Performance group title problem: Cariad
From: HuwG
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 08:44 AM

"Annwylaf" ? (= "Dearest". The best phonetic pronunciation I can manage is, "Ann-weel-av").

Subject: RE: BS: Performance group title problem: Cariad
From: Bullfrog Jones
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 08:48 AM

Off the top of my head, how about 'Croeso' (kroi-so), meaning welcome.

BJ

Subject: RE: BS: Performance group title problem: Cariad
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 04:13 PM

Mumbles!! Cockles and Laver bread. Welshcakes. Llareggub. Lloyd George's Father. There's lovely. 2 Girls and a Boyo.
I'll get me coat......Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Performance group title problem: Cariad
From: Helen
Date: 05 Feb 03 - 05:30 AM

Thanks for the suggestions so far.

I was kind of hoping that there would be a phrase with the word Cariad in it, so does "Annwylaf" or "Croeso" work in a phrase that way? Or are they more likely to be used separately?

What I mean is this: would Annwylaf Cariad just be a repetition of two similar words, i.e. a tautology?

Also, the problem here in Oz might be that the pronunciation of "Annwylaf" might stump a lot of people.

Helen

Subject: RE: BS: Performance group title problem: Cariad
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Feb 03 - 09:55 AM

Was on a website for children's names the other day and discovered the name Anwen, which means 'very fair' in Welsh. My friends are having a girl and I suggested 'Anwen Rhian'...'very fair maiden'. Anwen Cariad, maybe? I'm still working on the pronuciation of Llangollen, myself.

Subject: RE: BS: Performance group title problem: Cariad
From: breezy
Date: 05 Feb 03 - 01:44 PM

'Heddwch' meaning peace
Go on try it, He - as in head, dd = th as in the, w as in oo, and finally ch as in the sound you make when you try to try to clear the back of your troat before you gob. Could have impact.
or 'calon lan' meaning heart that is pure or clean or simply 'Calon' = heart

Subject: RE: BS: Performance group title problem: Cariad
From: Keef Wivaneff
Date: 05 Feb 03 - 04:28 PM

How about Cariad Fach (pronounced varch the 'ch " being the clearing of the throat practised by heavy smokers type of sound.
Fach means small but used also as a term of endearment so in this sense means dear little child.
Keef

Subject: RE: BS: Performance group title problem: Cariad
From: CraigS
Date: 05 Feb 03 - 04:46 PM

Cerys Cariad ? Cariad Tabhartas ? Elohesra ?

Subject: RE: BS: Performance group title problem: Cariad
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 05 Feb 03 - 05:26 PM

Cwm Cariad. NSW Cariad. Jumbuck Cariad. Cariad Away.
Better go now.....Giok

Subject: RE: Performance group title problem: Cariad
From: HelenR
Date: 06 Feb 03 - 06:59 AM

Cariad Mwyn? That would mean something like 'gentle sweetheart', perhaps that's a bit wet... you'd need to check it with a proper Welsh speaker too. But it sounds quite nice - mwyn pronounced 'moyn', more or less.
I'd avoid Calon Lan, that's the name of a popular hymn - a very nice one, but may lead people to expect a choir or something.
You do want to make sure that it's not too mystifying and unpronouncable, or you'll be working against yourselves...

Subject: RE: Performance group title problem: Cariad
From: breezy
Date: 06 Feb 03 - 08:06 AM

Just 'Calon' then

Subject: RE: Performance group title problem: Cariad
From: sian, west wales
Date: 06 Feb 03 - 08:17 AM

I like Calon. Easy. Not going to be mispronounced. Cariad Mwyn is OK too. (I'd write the phonetics as mooeeen.) Cariad Fach (shouldn't be an 'r' in the phonetics given) is OK referring to a girl; it would be Cariad Bach if a boy. I wouldn't use 'annwylaf' as the mispronunciations could be many. Cariad Annwyl would be Sweetheart Dear. Cariad Cu ("cee" - hard 'c') is Fond Love, but the Cu would be mispronounced. Cariad Cywir (cuh-weer) is nice, and the title of a song (True Love). Cariad Cynnes (cuh-ness) is Warm Love - hmmm, that doesn't sound right in English does it? Sort of 'affectionate', I guess. Cariad Pur (peer - pure) is nice, and is a phrase from the Welsh song, Tra Bo Dau (While there are two).

Just don't try to pair up words from dictionaries or web sites without checking them out with a Welsh speaker. I've seen people come up with the strangest sounding stuff ... !

Best of luck.

sian

Subject: RE: Performance group title problem: Cariad
From: HuwG
Date: 06 Feb 03 - 08:25 AM

Quite right, Sian; and it occurs to me that, even if pronounced correctly, Cariad Cu might raise the odd titter, as it could be mistaken for Cariad Ci, which means roughly, "Dear Dog".

Subject: RE: Performance group title problem: Cariad
From: sian, west wales
Date: 06 Feb 03 - 11:11 AM

Well ... I can live with Cariad Ci as well!

Of course, you could also go for a blatantly-unpronouncable-unless - you-were - born-here name which could be fun. Bugeiliaid Pontrhydfendigaid might do. Brithyllod Bronwyllt has a certain ring to it. Or Chwaldodach y Chwibon? So much choice; so little time.

No. I'm getting silly now. Back to work ...

sian

Subject: RE: Performance group title problem: Cariad
From: HuwG
Date: 07 Feb 03 - 04:53 AM

My parents, who are both in the Côr Dyfed, seem to recall an informal choral society called "Cantorion Gaerfyrddin".

[Caerfyrddin = Carmarthen. Why the soft mutation, I don't know, but they do seem to speak a rather purist version of Welsh in Carmarthen. It may have something to do with "Cartref" = "Home", "Gartref" = "at home" or "in"].

Subject: RE: Performance group title problem: Cariad
From: sian, west wales
Date: 07 Feb 03 - 05:29 AM

No, there's no reason for the mutation. I live in Caerfyrddin and I don't know of the group. Cantorion Myrddin perhaps? (Merlin Singers - they do exist.)

Moving away from "Cariad" ... how about "Alaw" (tune) or "Cainc" ("ai" pronounced "eye"; an older word for tune; also "knot" and "branch")

sian

Subject: RE: Performance group title problem: Cariad
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 07 Feb 03 - 05:43 AM

Siân: ""Cainc" ("ai" pronounced "eye"; an older word for tune; also "knot" and "branch")" is that related to the English word "Kink" ?
Already in use for an old pop group ?

Nigel

Subject: RE: Performance group title problem: Cariad
From: sian, west wales
Date: 07 Feb 03 - 08:21 AM

Nigel - hadn't thought of the kink/cainc/knot connection. Don't know about the pop group, but I bought myself the new book "Be Bop a Lwla - y Delyn Aur" for Christmas (history of Welsh pop) and I'll take a look in the index if I get a minute.

sian

Subject: RE: Performance group title problem: Cariad
From: GUEST,nashville cat
Date: 07 Feb 03 - 08:46 AM

Hi Sian,
Would you be so kind as to share the publishing info on the book you mentioned about the history of Welsh pop? There's some musician/Welsh-o-philes here in Nashville who'd be interested in obtaining a copy of it, I'm sure. The cainc/kink connection is interesting, also. I'd like to know that one m'self. This thread seems to be taking a nice drift. As long as we're drifting there's a young lady here(in Nash) who's decided to have Welsh for her foriegn language requirement. She's 14(approx. 9th grade here in the States)and home schooled. Would anyone know of someone in the middle Tennessee area who speaks Welsh and could/would tutor? An interactive website, perhaps? It's a long shot, but worth it in her case. Thanks alot.

Subject: RE: Performance group title problem: Cariad
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 07 Feb 03 - 08:55 AM

Guest,nashville cat: for details of the book see This link
There is also a link at the bottom of that page to the publisher

Nigel

Subject: RE: Performance group title problem: Cariad
From: HuwG
Date: 07 Feb 03 - 09:04 AM

Sian, my parents may have been thinking merely of "Cantorion yn Nghaerfyrddin", or just singers in general, in Carmarthen.

GUEST, Nashville cat, note the horrible things that happen to the first letters of words depending on case, location, tense, gender, and a whole host of other factors. Best wishes to your student friend, if she pursues "Yr iaith y nefoedd" (The language of Heaven).

Subject: RE: Performance group title problem: Cariad
From: sian, west wales
Date: 07 Feb 03 - 09:17 AM

Nash, first port of call for your friend must be Cymdeithas Madog They'll know who is where and what help is available. For any other help, join Mudcat and PM me.

Oh ... not sure if the article in Nigel's link actually makes it clear that this book is in Welsh. The author is a friend of mine and he was telling me last week that the sales have been remarkable...

sian

Subject: RE: Performance group title problem: Cariad
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 07 Feb 03 - 09:22 AM

HuwG: you underestimate the problem with mutations, your example should be "Cantorion yng Nghaerfyrddin", if my memory serves me well.

Nigel

Subject: RE: Performance group title problem: Cariad
From: HuwG
Date: 07 Feb 03 - 10:48 AM

Nigel, your memory does serve you well, I should have remembered that. Call it a typo, or temporary brain-fade.

Suffice it to say, that anyone trying to follow Welsh text with the aid of a dictionary is in for a frustrating time, without an understanding of all the various mutations.

One thing I cannot get from where I live is S4C [Sianel Pedwar Cymru, the Welsh-language TV station], or any Welsh radio station (I get occasional tapes and videos from Ma and Pa). That is one definite disappointment.

Subject: RE: Performance group title problem: Cariad
From: sian, west wales
Date: 07 Feb 03 - 11:02 AM

You should be able to get Radio Cymru live feed from bbc.co.uk.

sian

Subject: RE: Performance group title problem: Cariad
From: GUEST,nashville cat
Date: 07 Feb 03 - 06:49 PM

Sian, Nigel and Huw,
Thank you for the links and pointers. Have printed this thread for my friend's daughter and included the web addresses you've suggested. Checked them out myself and found them to be very much on the order of what she needs. Wasn't aware the book on Welsh pop is printed in Welsh only. Does your friend have plans to publish it in English? Thanks again.

Subject: RE: Performance group title problem: Cariad
From: Helen
Date: 10 Feb 03 - 06:22 AM

I'm still reading all of your ideas. I'm kind of stuck on keeping the word Cariad in the band's name somehow, just because we have already made up business cards and posters.

I found a Welsh greeting card site and one card had the heading "Llawn o Gariad", which I am guessing means "lots of love".

The reason I am leaning towards this name is that my sis & I grew up in a small suburb called Lorn, and she and her family, as well as my Dad, still live there. So that would also be a bit of a play on words. It would be a bit difficult to pronounce, with the "Ll" sound but it could be mispronounced and still understood.

The thread drift is also interesting to me, so keep on chatting, folks.

Helen

Subject: RE: Performance group title problem: Cariad
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 10 Feb 03 - 06:43 AM

"Llawn o Gariad": "Full of Love", still suitable.
I've stated it before (but can't remember where) to pronounce "Ll" place the tip of the tongue against the back of the upper teeth and exhale both over and under the tongue whilst bringing it down to the floor of the mouth.

Nigel

Subject: RE: Performance group title problem: Cariad
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 10 Feb 03 - 06:47 AM

"Lots of Love" would be 'Llawer o Gariad'. A very similar sound, with 'Llawer' almost sounding as 'Flower' (very poetic). But actually using the 'Ll' at the begining and the 'er' sounding as 'air'

Nigel

Subject: RE: Performance group title problem: Cariad
From: sian, west wales
Date: 10 Feb 03 - 08:08 AM

Cariad Cyntaf (Cun - tahv) First Love?
Cusan Cariad (Kiss-an) Kiss of Love?
Creithiau Cariad (Kreye-th-ee-eh or Kreye-th-ee-eye) Scars of Love (maybe not?)
Cariad Caeth (Kaith)Captive Love
Cariad Cain (Kine)fair/elegant
Calan Cariad (KAlan) "Calan" refers to the first day of the month, often an old Festival Day, like May Day (Calan Mai) or Calan Gaeaf (the first day of winter); Calan today tends to be taken as New Year's Day; there is no actual Calan Cariad ... but there could be - in our own minds!

Nashcat - I doubt if the book will ever be published in translation. Publishers here probably wouldn't think it would sell - as non-Welsh speakers probably didn't even notice that most of this activity was taking place ... except when it was overtly political, and then press reports wouldn't encourage an interest in the 'art'. The book did, however, get a nice review in the national paper, The Western Mail, this weekend.

sian

Subject: RE: Performance group title problem: Cariad
From: Deni-C
Date: 11 Feb 03 - 06:12 AM

Haven't time to read all the posts. Has anyone suggested

Cariad Dda - Good Love

Cariad Ddeg - Fine Love (I think)
D

Subject: RE: Performance group title problem: Cariad
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 11 Feb 03 - 06:20 AM

Deni-C: 'Cariad Ddeg' would appear to be a mutation of 'Cariad Deg' which looks like a tennis score (love ten).
I think what you want is 'Cariad Deg' which is a mutation of 'Cariad Teg': Teg=fair, beautiful, fine.

Nigel

Subject: RE: Performance group title problem: Cariad
From: sian, west wales
Date: 11 Feb 03 - 06:51 AM

Nigel is right about the 'teg'. Also, I think, if one used 'good cariad' at all, it would be Cariad Da. Cariad can be either masc. or fem. but unless you were referring to a specific woman, you'd use the masc.

Except that I can't really think of a situation where you'd say, 'cariad da'. Other adjectives are more usual. I guess because 'da' is a bit bland when referring to love.

sian

Subject: RE: Performance group title problem: Cariad
From: Deni-C
Date: 11 Feb 03 - 02:36 PM

That's pretty hilarious nigel. Love ten a great name for a group!!!!!

and Sian, thanks.

Still chuckling....?

Deni

Subject: RE: Performance group title problem: Cariad
From: Llanfair
Date: 11 Feb 03 - 06:11 PM

One of my favourite words is Hiraeth, which doesn't translate directly, but means homesick, or missing one's own home, or love of one's country.

Cheers, Bron.