Hornpipe Origins

Subject: Hornpipes : originally played on which instrument?
From: mickburke
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 04:04 PM

Ahoy there shipmates . In O'Neils Irish Fiddle Music there is a tune called the Trumpet Hornpipe . I've never heard a hornpipe being played on a trumpet and I was wondering whether it is known which type of horn or pipe "hornpipes" take their name from.

Subject: RE: Hornpipe Origins
From: terrier
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 04:49 PM

Most people know the trumpet hornpipe as "Captain Pugwash",sig tune to a TV kids prog years ago !! Ahoy Me Hearties...

Subject: RE: Hornpipe Origins
From: greg stephens
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 05:03 PM

Interestingly, this tune is known as the Clarinet Hornpipe in some early English collections. The original instrument called the hornpipe was a reed pipe with a horn at each end, one over the reed(you blew on the end of the hor, not touching your lips to the reed).
Hornpipes in the early days in England were normally in 3/2 or 9/4(6/8). The normal type of hornpipe came in in the early 1700's, and the heyday would be the 1800's I suppose. The style soon covered the whole British Isles. The arliest published hornpipes of the modern type are I think English, but that does not of course that that kind of tune originated in England: because southern English publishers were often quicker of the mark than the provincials.

Subject: RE: Hornpipe Origins
From: greg stephens
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 05:06 PM

By the way:the Trumpet Hornpipe is so-called because the opening phrase is like a bugle call: a tune that can be played on an open brass horn without pressing any valves or keys.
It was also called Lascelle's Hornpipe (spelled in a remarkable variety of ways in MS books).

Subject: RE: Hornpipe Origins
From: leeneia
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 05:19 PM

My unabridged dictionary says a hornpipe was "an instrument formerly popular in Wales, consisting of a wooden pipe with holes at intervals and a reed mouthpiece - so called because the bell at the open end was sometimes made of horn.

2. a lively and vigorous dance, usually by a single person, and originally accompanied by hornpipe playing, popular among sailors

3. a lively tune adapted for such a dance

Subject: RE: Hornpipe Origins
From: treewind
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 05:19 PM

There are rumours of a musical instrument called a hornpipe but you don't see many of them around. I'm very dubious about the authenticity of the Highland Hornpipe as a traditional instrument, but it may be based on somthing that did exist once.

Early hornpipes could have been bagpipe tunes, though many surviving example even of the earlier 3/2 hornpipes have too much range for a bagpipe chanter. That may be because they were modified by fiddlers later. The later common time hornpipe appeared in the 18th centrury and was likely to be played on fiddles and other instruments, but the name may have survived from the bagpipe days.

There's an article by Gavin Atkin in an earlier EDS with a theory that the Naval hornpipe (dance) was derived from the step dance still found in East Anglia and Dartmoor.

The "Trumpet" Designation is of course from the opening triplets of that particular tune, and the Pugwas Theme was a recording of Northumbrian accordionist Tommy Edmondson.

Anahata

Subject: RE: Hornpipe Origins
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 05:30 PM

Subject: RE: Hornpipe Origins
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 05:32 PM

There are references to the instrument the hornpipe used to accompany the dance in Chaucer's works: "Controve he welde and foule fayla with hornepypes of cornewayle"

The instrument known as the hornpipe apparently consisted of a wooden pipe with spaced holes and a mouthpiece made of horn. The earliest reference made to the dance appears to be in a stage direction to the "Digby Mystery" performed about 1485 - "here mynstrellys on hornpipe" to conclude the performance. It may have been about this time that the dance became associated with sailors and the sea. It is easy to understand that the small space required for the dance and the fact that no partner was necessary made it particularly suitable for shipboard use. Samuel Pepys referred in his diary to the dance calling it "The Jig of the Ship" and Captain Cook is noted to have ordered his men to dance the hornpipe in order to keep them in good health in the cramped space of sailing ships of those days.


My Fav is the Black Bear played on the bagpipes.

Yours, Aye. Dave

Subject: RE: Hornpipe Origins
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 05:43 PM

The name "hornpipe" derives from a windcap double-reed instrument known as the "pibgorn" in Wales and "stock-and-horn" in England and Scotland. It has a limited range, comparable to a bagpipe chanter, and can't play most of the tunes we now call hornpipes. It *could* play the earliest examples of the genre, which were usually in 3/2 and seem to have originated in northern England. (These tunes are older than 9/8 jigs and seem to me to be the ancestors of them).

As far as I know the Trumpet Hornpipe was first published by Kerr in Glasgow in the 1880s. It would probably be a bugger on a trumpet but doable as a showpiece on the cornopean or cornet (hugely popular at the time the tune was first printed). The repeated notes at the start are a typical feature of brass music.

Subject: RE: Hornpipe Origins
From: Tootler
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 05:47 PM

I have also heard that the modern, common time hornpipe originated on the English stage in the 18th century, but I can't remember where I read it.

Possibly the greatest composer of "modern" hornpipes was fiddler James Hill. Scots born he lived most of his adult life in Gateshead.

Subject: RE: Hornpipe Origins
From: terrier
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 06:26 PM

It's interesting that Dave should think of the BLACK BEAR as a hornpipe.I've found it in some books as a march, a hornpipe and as a rant. For years I've wondered just how to catergorise these odd tunes. What would be the criteria for calling a tune a "Hornpipe"?
As for the Black Bear, it sounds well played as a rant.

Subject: RE: Hornpipe Origins
From: Tootler
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 06:55 PM

It seems to me it's a combination of tempo and rhythm. You can turn a reel or a rant into a hornpipe by slowing it down a bit and "dotting" the quavers. Roxburgh Castle is another which seems to be played differently by different people. In the folkworks session collection it's classed as a rant and is in a set with Morpeth Rant. Others play it as a reel and yet others as a Hornpipe. At Folkworks summer school I heard one of the Youth Summer School Bands play Soldiers Joy as a hornpipe.

I must admit I am not sure what makes a tune a rant, but listening to some recordings it does seem there is a little more emphasis on the beat than a reel and a hint of lilt in the quavers.

I was playing around with a tune some while back (I can't remember which now) and I found that by slowing it down, dotting the quavers and adding a snap or two I could turn it into a Schottische or Strathspey.

This leads me to the conclusion that what form a tune takes is a based on what people say it is (custom and practice or expectations) and how you play it.

Subject: RE: Hornpipe Origins
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 08:41 PM

B;ack Bear, I have marched to it many times, a brilliant march to end a military tattoo with; and traditionally one that stirs up the Scots for a bayonet charge...Great tune!

Subject: RE: Hornpipe Origins
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 08:59 PM

It's called the 'Trumpet Hornpipe' because of the distinctive 'trumpet like triple tonguing' phrase. This is a 'triplet' - 3 notes played in the time of 2 beats.

I still love Captn Pugwash.

Subject: RE: Hornpipe Origins
From: Leadfingers
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 09:39 PM

The Trumpet is a lovely tune to play on Whistle , though I always feel
slightly annoyed when it is introduced as Captain Pugwash !

Subject: RE: Hornpipe Origins
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 09:43 PM

LF

I use the 'triple tonguing' technique when I do too.

Subject: RE: Hornpipe Origins
From: terrier
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 06:03 AM

I've just found the Trumpet Hornpipe in a book called The Morpeth Rant, compiled by Matt Seattle. In the book, Matt calls it Captain Pugwash with 'the trumpet' in brackets. I guess that's what is called the 'folk process'

T

Subject: RE: Hornpipe Origins
From: Paul Burke
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 06:39 AM

What's that other tune that's usually played with the Trumpet Hornpipe- the one Weatherspoon used to play on his organ in "Tales from Rubovia"?

And what's the Rubovia theme tune (.wav file so slow if you're on dialup)?

Subject: RE: Hornpipe Origins
From: treewind
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 07:14 AM

"what form a tune takes is based on what people say it is"

The point is, hornpipes, rants, reels, polkas etc. are dances (or possibly ways of stepping). So any potentially suitable tune becomes a hornpipe, rant or whatever by being played at the right speed and in the right way. Not that everybody dances rants at the same speed either, so you have to take a latitude reading before you start playing...

Anahata

Subject: RE: Hornpipe Origins
From: terrier
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 09:20 AM

Paul, what is the tune from Tales From Rubovia? I drew a blank with your link so i did a search for Rubovia and that got me to Trumptonshire but still no Rubovia tune...

T

Subject: RE: Hornpipe Origins
From: Paul Burke
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 10:09 AM

I could whistle it for you, it goes twiddldy twee towhit towhoo....

a search should at least have got you here.

Subject: RE: Hornpipe Origins
From: mickburke
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 10:35 AM

Well thanks for the speedy reply shipmates .I knew there was something nautical about the tune . Captain Pugwash of course! I've been working through the tunes in O'Neils on a guitar - I have to leave out a lot of the twirls and frills and whatever and sort of take guesses at what the tunes are . Sometimes they even vaguely turn out to correspond to how they sound when played by people who know what they're doing .

Subject: RE: Hornpipe Origins
From: GUEST,Rowan
Date: 23 Aug 06 - 12:45 AM

At one stage I used to play a lot with a bloke who's ambition was to play the entire Doors repertoire on his piano accordion. He gradually learned some more traditional tunes from us and the Trumpet Hornpipe was one of them. He always referred to these traditional dance tunes (mostly British Isles in origin) by the opening bars to the Trumpet Horpipe;

"Twiddly bits, twiddly bits
lots and lots of twiddly bits;"
with repeats

We indulged him.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: Hornpipe Origins
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Aug 06 - 03:49 AM

Rubovia - Weatherspoon - Pongo the Dragon - the Pompestein Breakfast Sausage .....someone refresh more fully this one of my few and fading happy childhood memories please.

Subject: RE: Hornpipe Origins
From: Paul Burke
Date: 23 Aug 06 - 03:57 AM

Just follow my links, GUEST 03:49, and sign the petition to get the BBC to issue DVDs of the surviving episodes.

Subject: RE: Hornpipe Origins
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 23 Aug 06 - 08:34 PM

"a bloke who's ambition was to play the entire Doors repertoire on his piano accordion."

Sigh! Such Devotion!

And it proves that there is always someone out there, trying to show up those who say it cannot be done... playing Rock Music on a Piano Accordion!

Subject: RE: Hornpipe Origins
From: GUEST,Rowan
Date: 27 Aug 06 - 06:33 PM

Greetings Foolestroup,
I suppose this would be better on the accordions thread but I don't know how to get it there without transgressing somehow.

What was more curious was that I only found out this ambition of his when he asked me to teach him how to play melody. We had first met years before, in Sydney, and he knew I played concertina. His left hand on the piano box was masterly; great use of rhythm and interesting chords. The "twiddly bits" we were into certainly got his right hand going but he found love with someone living east of the Pacific while he lives west of it. Fieldwork and marital duties have left his accordion languishing, longing for a bit of Doors and Trumpet.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: Hornpipe Origins
From: sian, west wales
Date: 27 Aug 06 - 06:42 PM

You can find information about the Welsh pibgorn (pib = pipe, corn =horn) on the bbc site which has been set up to accompany the Traditional Music of Wales series currently on BBC Radio Wales. I think the programme on instruments is next Sunday (12 noon British time) and accessible on the site. Good site except that it ignores the song ... which is the keystone of Welsh music.

sian

Subject: RE: Hornpipe Origins
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 03:04 AM

Treewind,

The "Trumpet" Designation is of course from the opening triplets of that particular tune, and the Pugwas Theme was a recording of Northumbrian accordionist Tommy Edmondson.

I have a folk memeory, (what else?) of Alf Edwards on the melodeon, but couldn't be sure. I guess a chromatic instrument would be needed for those descinding bars that play a series of odd notes (sharps?) near the end of the B music. When melodeon players play it in sessions that seem to play a quite diferent last couple of bars because the don't have the sharps and so on.

Subject: RE: Hornpipe Origins
From: Tootler
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 12:13 PM

... series of odd notes (sharps?)

Flats. The sequence is G, F, E Eb

It should be possible on a D/G melodeon if the top buttons are accidentals as is the case on my Pokerwork (The top button on the G row is F/Eb) though I am not good enough to manage it. I usually play it on the recorder though, where I have no problems :-)

Subject: RE: Hornpipe Origins
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 02:16 PM

I think you'll find it's G F# F E if you try it - at least that's what I play.

A C/G melodeon could do it.

Subject: RE: Hornpipe Origins
From: terrier
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 02:17 PM

There are various harmony notes a melodion player could use (is that allowed)e.g. G,B,C,A or G,B,C,G or even G,G,G,G. In fact just about any note that is part of the main triad of the chord.As long as they are not played too loud to drown the melody.
T

Subject: RE: Hornpipe Origins
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 05:45 AM

Dare I suggest that this is direct evidence that the melodeon is a far more subtle instrument than many give it credit for?

Subject: RE: Hornpipe Origins
From: Rumncoke
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 01:52 PM

I have this bit of doggeral in my memory - about a girl/woman

something something something her beauty(?) does excell.
And for the hornpipe round she bears away the bell.

The bell I supose being a prize or award.

Which seems rather odd as females, round dances and hornpipes aren't exactly three things you'd think of as usually going together.

I like Captain Pugwash too - even the way the legs went round and round rather than the usual way of walking.

Anne

Subject: RE: Hornpipe Origins
From: Tootler
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 06:31 PM

I think you'll find it's G F# F E if you try it - at least that's what I play.

I did - to check before I posted. And G F E Eb is what I play. I first learned the tune off a Tinwhistle tutor which had a simplified version - G G G G. Later someone gave me some dots with the descending sequence and I am pretty sure that is what was on them. I remember the Eb particularly. Unfortunately I could not find the sheet with the dots on to check, though I had everything else from that source <Grrrrr>.

Either works and if some are doing one and some the other, you will get some interesting effects, though I doubt anyone really worries in a session.

A C/G melodeon could do it.

True, but most people in England have D/G melodeons. D/G 2 row melodeons often come with accidentals on the end button on each row. In such a case both sequences are possible with the D/G melodeon, though, in my experience, limited as it is, melodeon players usually do some interesting things with the left hand as well at that point.

Subject: RE: Hornpipe Origins
From: Marje
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 08:28 AM

On a D/G melodeon that has no accidentals, you can do G B C C# (with an A chord on the C#, which sounds fine. Especially if someone else does the descending sequence, but even if they don't.

Marje