Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 09:36 AM

Will be when it starts raining and I have an excuse for not burning Bl.... garden rubbish Ruairi - thanks.
In the meantime - can I agree wholeheartedly with Howard's last posting.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 28 Feb 10 - 07:03 PM

Returning to the theme of songs you (possibly) shouldn't sing because they have been done to death, I have come across an earlier thread on a similar theme. Particularly worthy of serious consideration is this posting recalling Frank Harte's comment on Molly Malone.

I've never been sure whether I can accept his assessment of that song, and I certainly cringed a few months ago when someone sang Clementine.

Richard

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 28 Feb 10 - 07:12 PM

I've sung "Clementine" in a folk club, but admittedly I always sing it to "Cwm Rhondda".

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Mar 10 - 07:23 PM

GUEST,ollaimh claims that "in vancouver the vancouver folk song society banned irish rebel songs. i didn't even know for a while. when i found out i started singing them and they gave it up. those songs are about the universal right to self determination. and they are very good songs."

I first became President of the Vancouver Folk Song Society in 1968 and attended almost every meeting between then and about 2006. I was on the Board almost all of those years too.

I want to deny Ollaimh's claim as above. The VFSS in my years never did this, never even talked about it, and never banned any songs or any music at any time, for any reason.

Jon Bartlett

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: GUEST,mb
Date: 01 Mar 10 - 07:39 PM

I would like to add to Jon's comment below that I have been an active member of the Vancouver Folk Song Society since 2005, including two terms on the board, and never during that time has the society banned any songs, Irish or otherwise.

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 04:10 AM

I wouldn't worry about it - There are lots of claims about songs being banned, usualy by the English. None of them are true. Makes a change that Canada is in the firing line:-)

DeG

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 21 May 11 - 04:13 AM

Refresh, in re thread recently started on What is meant by singing in own voice?

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 May 11 - 11:18 AM

any song you do not like.

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: GUEST,Desi C
Date: 21 May 11 - 02:42 PM

As a club host I don't know of any 'banned' songs, certainly wouldn't have that in our club! especially as I've performed both Fields Of Athenry and Wild Rover in the last month! But very much agree Athenry is done to death among others. If I hear another rendition of Hotel California I think I'll go insane, not only is it over done but one of the early examples of the dreadful cross over country, cross over into garbage in my opinion. Not only is it boring but everyone does it exactly the same old way,only once in 40 years in Folk music have I just once heard someone try do it a bit differently.

I've heard that Ralph McTell will no longer do Folk clubs, I wonder if that's because he's as sick of hearing Streets Of London as I am, ok it WAS a good song then, but now it's just the Folk version of the bloody Birdy song!

As if to add to my suffering, I recently agreed our Club will have a Dylan theme song night on May 25th in honour of his birthday. Now I think Dylan is a genius and could watch him sing all night. But Gawd why do so many of you come to the club insistent on doing the longest Dylan epic you can find baffles me, so it gives you extra minutes on stage, but in the process give the poor old Host apoplexy having to hope you'll ge your tuning done before midnight let alone finish the song. So far I have a minimum 31 Dylan songs to listen to on the night, I've sensibly arranged a holiday afterwards, to Ireland where I think I'll leave out Fields of Athenry ;)

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 21 May 11 - 09:17 PM

Any thing by Lady GaGa?

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 22 May 11 - 01:13 PM

I'd never even heard of 'Fields of Athenry' until I read this thread! Have just listened to it on Youtube (Dubliners' version) What a haunting and beautiful song.

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: Richard from Liverpool
Date: 22 May 11 - 02:17 PM

It's especially haunting (for all the wrong reasons) when I think back to the bloated fat faced golf executives of the Celtic Tiger era shouting it after a Ryder Cup victory at the K club in County Kildare. A symbol of the excess and historic ignorance that has left today's Ireland staring into the abyss.

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 May 11 - 02:38 PM

Richard, correct, its no use getting rid of one set of tyrants, to allow yourself to be exploited, by another set.
Since when is it ok, that the country is banjaxed, by a set of fat pigs, whose only qualification is that they are irish.
IDONT WANT ireland to be f### up by anyone whether they are irish english african chilean libyan sudanes american.
fieldsof athenry is a backward looking reactionary song.

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 22 May 11 - 04:22 PM

Well I'm sorry if I've said the wrong thing by praising the song itself, it obviously stirs people up since it refers to terrible suffering. I agree we shouldn't be 'backward looking', but many folk songs have their origins in injustice and suffering. You can't censor them all because of that. I'm also very fond of 'O Flower of Scotland', and I suppose that too is contentious. (By the way, my mother was Irish from Cork, and my father Scots from Sutherland so their ancestors' history would reflect the suffering imposed on them at the time, eg potato famine and Highland Clearances. I think these songs are important historically, and shouldn't be forgotten, even though wounds can be healed over time.)

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: DMcG
Date: 22 May 11 - 04:56 PM

What (for example) would happen to "The Wild Rover" if it was never sung for the next, say, 10 years?

Some years back I was at a singaround where the average age was perhaps 50+ and there was a shy youth of around 20 who sat out his tirn a couple of times then decided he was brave enough to sing and started 'The Leaving of Liverpool'. Everyone was very polite and so on, but the expressions revealed - or I imagined - a certain sense of indulging the lad because it was so hackeyed. When he came to a certain point he forgot the words ... and we discovered we had all forgotten them as well. I left that place, as they say 'a sadder and wiser man'

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: Richard from Liverpool
Date: 22 May 11 - 05:06 PM

Hi Eliza,

No need to apologise at all, praise what you like, it's interesting that you come at the song with fresh ears and to hear your reaction. All I was saying is that my reaction to it can never just be about the song, but all of the baggage that goes along with the song. For better or worse.

As an Irish Scottish Scouser, I certainly believe in the carrying forward of social history and the importance of memory and identity. That said, I think that the perpetuation of a certain "Irish = noble heroes, English = villinous bastards" mythology is both historically inaccurate and, also, serves to cover up the real wrongs being done by people regardless of nationality today.

In short, my relatives in Ireland today should be (and I believe ARE) less concerned about the historic wrongs of some English, and more concerned about the current suffering following recent greed within the Irish economy.

When I hear it I can't hear anything beautiful at all, because I think of it as a song about the Irish famine written in the 1970s, used as anti-English propaganda and sung (or, rather, shouted) by many of the people responsible for TODAY'S sufferings.

I have on my desktop the photo of a piece of Dublin graffiti that reads: "Greed is the knife and the scars run deep". The words are from a song by Damien Dempsey, called Colony, and in the song they talk about the greed and exploitation associated with imperialism. The thing is, the words are equally applicable to the consequences of today's greed - Damien Dempsey knows that in his own song writing, and I imagine the graffiti artist knows that too, seeing as it popped up in the midst of the collapse of the Irish economy.

All I'm saying is, we don't need Lord Trevelyan as a bogeyman anymore.

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 May 11 - 05:08 PM

eliza, it is more that the song is sung at football matches between ran gers and celtic, by celtic fans as a way of provoking secteranism and establishing tribal nonsense.
I live in county cork and am in favour of a united ireland, but i am more concerned about what kind of a united ireland, i look at present irish politicians and see too many self serving people, the exceptions are sinn fein, who only take an industrial wage, and donate the rest to their party,
sinn fein are ok,, but I AM NOT TOTALLY CONVINCED they hold the same syndicalistic views as myself I want to see a united ireland based upon those principles, all this nationalistic posturing by fianna fail and fine gael is crap.what kind of a united ireland is the IMPORTANT question

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 May 11 - 05:32 PM

to continue, I live in a country, that is under the financial control of the IMF, The former IMF chief Strauss Kahn HAS been accused of trying to sexually rape a french chambermaid.
The IMF is trying to FINANCIALLY rape Ireland, nationalistic backward looking songs like the fields of athenry, are an irrelevance, we have had enough of this bogus NATIONALISM, These politicians that spout this bogus nationalistic crap,while feathering their own nest, and who sing these songs, and songs about the Quislings of Fine Gael, need to heed these words.
Begone,' said he, 'you have sat long enough, Do you think to sit here till Doomsday come?'"
we will no longer be fooled by divisive songs and nationalistic codswallop, while our elected politicians stick their noses in the trough

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: Hesk
Date: 22 May 11 - 05:35 PM

If you are still going to a UK folk club, despite all the signs to the contrary, the chances are that you have been going for a fair old time.
I would expect a singer to have some sensitivity towards the rest of the members, in the sense of not flogging any one song to death in front of long suffering and patient friends.
Any song, especially a good one, can become irritating if heard frequently enough. For that reason "Songs you shouln't sing in a UK folk club" could apply to any one of them!

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 22 May 11 - 05:58 PM

This is all very fascinating, and just shows how little I know about the connotations of the song. Funnily enough, I went to Edinburgh Uni, and watched quite a few Rangers/Celtic matches. (During the late 1960's) I never heard this song, because it hadn't yet been composed! You're quite right that keeping the 'English are nasty' theme going detracts from today's greedy enemies in the camp. And I concede that any song which stirs inappropriate sentiments is best not performed in a folk club setting. I have to add that, as a student in Edinburgh, I totally adored Wild Rover and all the other old chestnuts of folk songs, and we bellowed them out at every opportunity! I'd absolutely love to hear them again myself, but I suppose the groans would drown out the singing!

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 May 11 - 06:25 PM

There are distinct differences across the pond, I guess. I live on the west coast of the U. S. and A., and there is quite a large and active bunch of folk music enthusiasts here, singers and avid audiences.

A couple of years ago, I learn "The Fields of Athenry," "The Green Fields of France," and "Jock o'Hazeldean," and every time I sing them, they're well received. Of course it helps that, apparently, I am the only one around here who does sing them.

But back in the late Fifties and into the Sixties in this area, there were certain songs that had some people groaning and rolling their eyes. One was good ol' "John Henry." Not only did a lot of people feel it was essential to sing it at least once during an evening, but those who sang it felt that, like Harry Belafonte and Josh White, they had to turn the song into a major production, sometimes going on for fifteen or twenty minutes with breaks between verses for dramatic narration.

Much of anything that the King Kong Trio or the Bothers Four or the New Crusty Nostrils had record recently was bloody-well beaten to death, prompting people to dive under the tables and stick their fingers in their ears whenever they manifested themselves.

The ultimate result of this? It's been years since I've heard anyone around here sing "John Henry." I don't think most of the current crop of singers of folk songs around here even know "John Henry." Same thing with a couple of dozen songs and ballads that were considered standard repertoire, must know songs. Classic folk songs.

Nobody does them anymore.

Think about it!

Although I sang regularly in coffeehouses during this period, I made it a point to rotate my repertoire often, trying not to sing the same song for at least a couple of weeks (and I avoided the latest "pop" hits). This kept me hard at work learning new material until I developed a repertoire of around three or four hundred songs, and since I was keeping them relatively fresh in my memory, I was able to sing most of them off the top of my head.

ALSO, I didn't confine myself to singing only for folkies or where folk music enthusiasts gathered, such as coffeehouses. That was my base, but I tried to reach a wider audience; people who, if I sang a song that would have a coffeehouse or folk club audience rolling their eyes, had never heard the song before (this also required that I avoid songs that were currently getting a lot of radio and juke box play).

Frankly, considering how spiky a lot of people sound here on these threads, if I were just starting out, instead of spending a lot of time singing at folk clubs and open mikes, I'd seek out other audiences who may not know all that much about folk music and/or the minstrel tradition. I particularly like some of the very old versions of songs and ballads, and I think these might appeal quite a bit to, say, Early Music audiences.

Break new ground.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 23 May 11 - 02:21 AM

Andy c: The best way to get away with doing pop or contemporary songs in a folk club seems to be to not tell the audience what it is before you play it. I remember hearing someone in a very 'trad' club do an Arctic Monkeys song that was actually in the charts at the time, but as the performer kept the song's origins quiet the audience happily applauded the song just on its merits.

I've got away with this several times. I've done a couple of Pink Floyd songs, an Arcade Fire song and two Indelicates songs at singarounds recently without pre-announcing their provenence. Invariably they've gone down well.

A few people have recognised Pink Floyd's "Grantchester Meadows" when I've launched into it, but most seem to think it's a trad song or at least a song written by a 60s "folkie".

Funny how "shit like this" (to quote JC's blanket view of all "pop, country or heavy metal") seems to be quite acceptable among even dyed-in-the-wool traddies *until* you tell them the provenence!

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 May 11 - 02:33 AM

Rob ~~ Apart from a get-out like 'just testing perceptions' or some such ~~

WHY did you want to deceive or defraud [I can think of no other appropriate verbs] a traditional club audience in this fashion?

Please believe I ask purely out of interest: I think...

~Michael~

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 23 May 11 - 04:31 AM

Can I add that my then boyfriend and I journeyed about in his old Morris Traveller car to and from Celtic matches, often to Glasgow for the Rangers/Celtic derbies (as he was a Celtic fan) and we always ended up in a Glasgow bar where all the folk songs were belted out. And the same ones were sung again and again, and nobody groaned or rolled their eyes! Firstly, I think this would have been very rude, and secondly the people loved the familiar songs, no matter how many times they'd heard them. Things must have changed nowadays, if audiences are so unreceptive and discourteous as to groan at a singer. Surely, by definition, a traditional FOLK song is one that has been sung over and over down the generations, by all present. It's the modern disease of always wanting something NEW that makes an audience behave in this deplorable fashion I suppose.

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: Hesk
Date: 23 May 11 - 05:21 AM

Hi Eliza,

Certainly no one behaves in a deplorable fashion at the Singaround, or "Song and Supper", at Wherwell in Hampshire, quite the contrary.
All songs, tunes and poems are welcomed.
Nevertheless, by a process of osmosis, gleaned from these sessions and others, both at clubs and festivals, it becomes obvious that a small number of songs have been done rather more frequently than is privately hoped for. After all, we do talk to each other, sometimes!
On the other subject of downright offensive songs or militantly political songs, I suppose it is a question of understanding and sensitivity towards the audience, by the performer.

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: janemick
Date: 23 May 11 - 05:50 AM

We have discovered that songs like 'Leaving of Liverpool' and 'Pleasant and Delightful' are welcomed here in France; 'liverpool' is well known and often requested, and it is such a great song to sing! I would hesitate to sing either in the UK, so its nice to get the chance again.

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 23 May 11 - 05:55 AM

Michael:

I wasn't "deceiving or defrauding"....I just didn't preface the songs with any provenance, which isn't unusual. At the particular events described, some people introduce their songs some of the time, some all of the time and some never, so I wasn't doing anything unusual. The singarounds concerned are fairly mixed anyway, so by no means all the songs performed are "from the tradition".

Most people are willing to listen to whatever comes up at these events. It was just surprising that what I'd describe as "the more traddie end of the spectrum of attendees" seemed quite willing to *like* the songs as long as they thought they were "folkie" in origin but as soon as the provenence was explained, they suddenly became "shit".

In hindsight, using the expression "got away with" in my post was probably unwise...I was reflecting the phrasing of the back-quote from higher up the thread. I just went along to play/sing songs that I liked, didn't announce them beforehand and was amused by the reactions of *some* people when they later found out what they'd been applauding.

I have to say that this reaction has been confined to just a couple of places. Most of the places I've done these or similar songs they've been accepted at face value straight away.

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: GUEST,lively
Date: 23 May 11 - 06:09 AM

Re: "getting away with it"

It may be worth noting that folkies of all persuasions are usually very polite and generous natured and as such will heartily applaud and congratulate anything at all, irrespective of how awful they might privately think it is.

You can indeed get away with anything at a singaround, which is possibly why attending them can sometimes feel like undergoing a tooth extraction! Not that I object to Pink Floyd myself mind you.

That's not to say that the people in question were not being hypocritical as you suggest, but it is *possible* that they were just clapping because clapping is what you are supposed to do.

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 May 11 - 06:23 AM

I see what you mean, Rob; and appreciate you were repeating the words, & experiences, of a former poster. But I can't help still feeling nevertheless that, as a folk club is, by definition, a place where people go to hear a certain kind of music, and if they wanted to hear another kind of music then they would have gone elsewhere to a club where that was to be expected, then there was a certain ~ what is the word I want, now? ~ 'wilful', perhaps. or 'perverse'? ~ element in confounding their expectations as what you admit was a sort of experiment. The same considerations do not perhaps apply to a mixed singaround, which you now say this is what this was; but in that case why not come clean at the start as to what you were doing, rather than singing from cold, with, it appears, some suspicion or foreknowledge of what the reaction was likely to be when you eventually did come clean in retro? I don't want to make too much of this: and perhaps 'wilful' & 'perverse', even, are a bit strong. But I think you will see what I mean.

Best

~M~

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: Musket
Date: 23 May 11 - 07:20 AM

Just had a read through this thread, (or at least the shorter contributions..)

I have sympathy with people who are fed up of hearing the same songs thrashed out week after week by the same people, but only where that is laziness, as opposed to somebody wanting to do a song but doesn't consider themselves performers so have a very limited number of songs they have learned. Me? I encourage them instead.

No, I suppose these days my gripe would be an assumption that everybody in the room has the same political views as the singer, so an evening of abstract musical entertainment becomes a soap box for those whose social conscience was refined in the '60s and angry that society has not pandered to their views    yet. Not everybody in a folk club is a misguided Trot you know. Visitors from the real world have been known to drift in.... So overtly political songs can be either historical (and therefore folk music in any interpretation I can think of) or proxy for getting something off your chest, and therefore an excuse to drain my glass and wander to the bar till they shut up and sit down again. Ah well, at least they have a conservativeish government again to get excited about. I'll stick to Norfolk reed cutting songs if it's alright with you though.

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: ripov
Date: 23 May 11 - 08:02 AM

Eliza has hit the nail on the head. The songs to avoid in folk clubs are the ones that "ordinary" people like to sing. Songs being sung by ordinary people at work and play for decades or centuries is totally alien to the folk process.

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: Big Mick
Date: 23 May 11 - 09:41 AM

Ian, your observations are interesting to me as I often do songs that express a point of view on various issues. Yet I found your post compelling and pondered your points. You see, I believe ONE of the historical tasks of singers is to be an observer/commentator on the times and issues or conditions that folks face. I often mix current songs with "trad" songs to demonstrate that times and technology change, the motivating factors and the effects on average folks are timeless. It seems to me that the very legitimate point you make is that it is rarely appropriate to be preachy. In fact I have found it to be counter-productive. And a very important skill in delivering this type of message, if you will, is to mix it with humour, as Utah Phillips taught me.

Thank you for a thought provoking post, Ian.

All the best,

Micl

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: PatrickRose
Date: 23 May 11 - 12:09 PM

I started reading through and gave up, though I agree with the sentiments about the song being one you do for fun, and sod the rest of the club if they want to tut.

I try to avoid singing songs that are vaguely mainstream, because they're a bit too tired for me. Rugby Supporters + Fields of Athenry/Swing Low = fun, but out of that.

"If you are still going to a UK folk club, despite all the signs to the contrary, the chances are that you have been going for a fair old time."

Hey, I've only done 3 sessions at a folk club!

RE: Pop/Rock/Metal stuff, there's a world of folk metal out there which I'm itching to take to a session - van Canto's Last Night Of The Kings would be brilliant fun in my eyes - but I'm terrified of saying "This is a metal song" and then seeing everyone switch off. But then again, I've got Ten Finger Johnny up my sleeve for the comedy lot.

However, it's fun to try and bring something people don't know (for me at least). I see it as a challenge - in the 4 months of folk singing I've done, can I find one that nobody else knows?

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: PatrickRose
Date: 23 May 11 - 12:11 PM

Oh, and you can have a world of fun by singing a song that everyone knows to a different tune, or with a different ending. I smile inwardly when I sing Hangin' Johnny and tell myself I'm a terrible person for enjoying the confusion.

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: Hesk
Date: 23 May 11 - 12:24 PM

Hi DrugCrazed,

The fact that you have only done three sessions rather proves my point. My argument is if you are a regular, you have, most likely, been a regular for a long time, rather than a recent convert.
If you are to believe some of the posts on Mudcat, Folk Clubs are dead in the water. It was to this that I was referring. Personally I really enjoy going to Folk Clubs, but I am over 60!

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: PatrickRose
Date: 23 May 11 - 01:27 PM

It seems to be an oxymoron to say you've been a regular for a long time - to become a regular, you'll have had to be coming to the session for a long time.

Also, I'm 19 and I love the clubs as well :)

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: Hesk
Date: 23 May 11 - 03:11 PM

DrugCrazed:-

You can be a regular for one or two years, or, as in my case, "a long time regular" of over 40 years! But sorry for the confusion, anyway.

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: Don Firth
Date: 23 May 11 - 03:30 PM

Just a question:

If I sing "So We'll Go No More a-Roving," a poem by Lord Byron that has been set to music for a whole variety of audiences and they all like it very much, then I sing it in a folk club, prefacing it with comments about what it is and where it came from, is it, then, suddenly a "piece of shit?"

And if so, why?

Just curious.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: PatrickRose
Date: 23 May 11 - 05:13 PM

Don, that's the issue I have with the whole "no metal/rock/pop" rule. If you didn't know that something like Slania's Song was written recently by Eluveitie, and you sang it - creating a tune for the bridge - and like it then, then why should people put it down once they know it's a metal song?

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 May 11 - 05:18 PM

No,
But most folk club performers ,learn to adapt their repertoire for different kind of folk club audiences, i have no problem singing leaving of liverpool, but i do have a problem with fields of athenry[as i have explained why] and the wild rover for totally different reasons.
however, I have sung the wild rover, reluctantly I might say, in pub situations[to non folk afficianados], because it was requested, and it clearly gave somebody pleasure., that is part of being professional
   but its horses for courses,why should I sing it in a folk club, when it is considered hackneyed[ especially when audiences mess up the chorus with up your kilt rubbish] , and when i have an opportunity to sing[imo] better [and more from my point of view] satisfying songs.

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: ripov
Date: 23 May 11 - 06:56 PM

In all seriousness, in sessions, as opposed to clubs, the way we deal with requests for "deprecated" songs is to say that we will play them after 11 o'clock, or whenever last orders is. That way it pleases everyone. The "audience" - who of course are all potential "performers" (which after all is what FOLK music is about) - get a chance to join in singing songs that they know, and nobody is bored, because the beer has done its job. Perhaps folk clubs could adopt something similar.

But, as others have said, there always has to be room for a novice singing or playing something they are comfortable with, regardless of whether it is hackneyed or not. They may well go home and think "I wish I'd done something different", and learn something new.

Incidentally, for me the most requested song/tune (over the last 50 years) has been "Danny boy" aka "the Derry Air".(Although recently it has been replaced by "Fields of Athenry" or occasionally "Stairway to Heaven" or "Devil went down to Georgia"). How come no-one has mentioned it? Is it still acceptable? Or does no-one ever sing it in a folk-club these days?

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: Musket
Date: 24 May 11 - 03:53 AM

Big Mick mentions the dilemma of getting a point across whilst not being preachy. Difficult I know, and I do accept that by broad definition, folk music is relating events and feelings, which is not easy to do without declaring a view. (See tabloids for details.)

I was on strike in '84 and did a huge number of fund raising concerts, including sharing a stage with politicians such as Tony Benn and Dennis Skinner. Yes, I performed songs of oppression and political views, but even then, I sang songs I have never sung at folk clubs before or since. Horses for courses really.

I note Don Firth's comment about giving an introduction to a song as opposed to just singing it. I try to do this with many songs, research them etc and give a narrative about the song. By doing that, it is easy to include many of the songs on the hit lists above. I started doing it after attending a conference where the conductor Benjamin Zander (Boston Philharmonic) gave a speech, which, being him, included a piano and giving us insight into a Chopin prelude and how it tells a tale. I was mesmerised and since then always try to put a bit of flesh on the bones of a song.

My experience is that the hit list of no songs can decrease rapidly that way. For me, a great night is hearing somebody sing and learning something about a song which I never knew before. A brilliant example would be Vin Garbutt introducing "Believe me if all those endearing young charms." His irreverent humour helps mind....

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 24 May 11 - 04:44 AM

Michael: I see what you mean, Rob; and appreciate you were repeating the words, & experiences, of a former poster. But I can't help still feeling nevertheless that, as a folk club is, by definition, a place where people go to hear a certain kind of music, and if they wanted to hear another kind of music then they would have gone elsewhere to a club where that was to be expected, then there was a certain ~ what is the word I want, now? ~ 'wilful', perhaps. or 'perverse'? ~ element in confounding their expectations as what you admit was a sort of experiment. The same considerations do not perhaps apply to a mixed singaround, which you now say this is what this was; but in that case why not come clean at the start as to what you were doing, rather than singing from cold, with, it appears, some suspicion or foreknowledge of what the reaction was likely to be when you eventually did come clean in retro?

I guess curiosity would sum it up. The songs I sang are actually quite "folky" in style (Grantchester Meadows, eg, actually *is* a "certain kind of music"...very "folky" in style and content and it would be unlikely that anyone not in the know would identify it as a Pink Floyd song. In fact I sang it once at Tonbridge Folk Club (which is a *proper* folk club) and it went down very well there, with some very positive comments.

Lively: That's not to say that the people in question were not being hypocritical as you suggest, but it is *possible* that they were just clapping because clapping is what you are supposed to do.

It was a bit more than that. Typically along the lines of: Listener: "That was lovely, where's it from?"
Me: "It's by Pink Floyd, off their 'Ummagumma' album". Listener: "oh" (in a somewhat deprecating tone. End of conversation).

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: PatrickRose
Date: 24 May 11 - 04:49 AM

It was a bit more than that. Typically along the lines of: Listener: "That was lovely, where's it from?"
Me: "It's by Pink Floyd, off their 'Ummagumma' album". Listener: "oh" (in a somewhat deprecating tone. End of conversation).

Hence why I haven't taken Last Night Of the Kings to the session. Of course, it also helps that the key they wrote it in is a bugger of a key, and I haven't done many sessions.

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 25 May 11 - 04:26 AM

Going back to the point about "overdone" songs:

I've been going to singarounds/ sessions/ folk clubs for about a year and a half now. In that time I'd never heard anyone do:

- Streets Of London
- Catch The Wind
- Western Wind
- John Barleycorn

Until I did them (having noted that although described as "over-used" I'd never heard them at any of the sessions I attend). Since I did them, I've heard them done by others several times at the same singarounds/ sessions, so maybe I contributed unintentionally to a "revival" :-)

I'd never heard "Wild Rover" done until a couple of months ago, either, though I *have* heard "Fields of Athenry" done several times. Maybe 4-5 times in 18 months of visiting 5-6 different venues.

What I *have* heard done a lot are:

- Copperhead Road
- Rosebud in June
- The Band Played Waltzing Matilda
- Golden Vanity (loads of versions!)
- Dirty Old Town
- Manchester Rambler
- Fiddler's Green
- Carrickfergus

But to be honest (and maybe it'd be different if I'd been hearing them at events for 40 years) hearing, say, Fiddler's Green or Manchester Rambler 12 times in 18 months doesn't make me "fed up" with them at all.

However, I do have a great selection of venues to go to around here, and I can understand it if someone only attends one particular event regularly and the same person performs the same song every week or fortnight. I try to keep a list of what I've done at which venues and try not to repeat them too often, though naturally I tend to want to do in public those songs that I know I can perform best.

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: YorkshireYankee
Date: 26 May 11 - 10:53 AM

Drug Crazed, I don't see any problems with you doing an a capella version of a heavy metal song at a singaround.

I admit it would bother me if the lyrics were extremely crude, but I think you have a pretty good head on your shoulders
and can judge what is/isn't appropriate.

A good song is a good song, no matter where it comes from.

I also don't have a problem with not telling people where the song is from before you sing it. If it allows folks to listen
with an open mind instead of pre-judging a song before they've even heard it, that's great.

This discussion brings to mind a conversation I once had with a fellow who was Jewish, but whose surname sounded Italian.
He made a point of telling everyone he met, "Hi, my name is XYZ. I'm Jewish."

I also am (nominally) Jewish but have a name that doesn't "sound Jewish". I don't hide my "Jewishness", but I don't make a point of it either.
(People are often surprised, "Gosh, you don't look Jewish.") My feeling is that I want people to know me as a person first, "category" second
(lots of people make assumptions about Jewish people, which may or may not be true). I want folks to think of me as "My friend Vikki,
who happens to be Jewish" -- as opposed to "My Jewish friend Vikki".

This fellow felt that not announcing his Jewishness immediately would be a type of deception, since people could not necessarily tell from his name.
He also felt that I must be -- on some level -- ashamed of being Jewish. I disagreed (and still do). In the end, neither of us convinced the other.

Sorry if this is thread drift, but I think it's fine not to label something straight away -- especially if that may lead to one (or more) person(s) enjoying/appreciating something they would otherwise ignore/disparage.

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: PatrickRose
Date: 27 May 11 - 08:30 AM

Wait, I have a good head on my shoulders? You've known me now for 4 months and you think that?

Man, I've been doing it wrong...


I admit that I don't particularly enjoy the cruder metal either - as amusing as Korplikaani's Vodka is, it wouldn't really work at a session. Other stuff, like Alestorm's Nancy The Tavern Wench (which is less crude than Barnacle Bill The Sailor, but that isn't difficult...), Nightwish's The Islander, and other ones which I can probably pull from a hat if I wish would work.

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: GUEST
Date: 27 May 11 - 08:59 AM

Well if crude metal / rock songs aren't allowed in folk clubs, what about crudity in traditional folk songs? Are they allowed ;-)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pnuLmsFezVo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=or_YfXW1MCQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLotX3HE-4c&feature=channel_video_title

Lively

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: YorkshireYankee
Date: 27 May 11 - 03:57 PM

So, DC... you'd be happier if I thought you a clueless idiot? ;-)

Lively, even as I was typing the above, I thought, "Somebody is gonna pick me up on this..."

I listened to the songs at the links you provided (Hog-Eye Man, The Old Man From Over The Sea, and Good Ship Venus), and I could possibly see someone getting away with singing the second one at our singaround, but not the other two.

That being said, there may well be other singarounds (e.g. at a Rugby Club ;-) ) and other situations where they would not only be appropriate, but would go down a storm. I remember a late-night session at the very last National Folk Festival: many of the performers had been serenading the bar staff (in hopes of getting them to provide more booze even though it was long after closing time). They did not succeed, but eventually the staff felt they ought to return the favour, and sang a "filthy" song about Yogi Bear and his... friends. They prefaced it with an apology that it wasn't "folk music", but it was the only song they all knew.

After hearing it (and joining in on the chorus, as did we all) Jon Boden assured them that it absolutely was a folk song, no question about it -- as much or maybe even more than the songs he performs -- and entirely appropriate (somewhat to their surprise). Well said, that man!

There is a time and place for almost anything/everything -- especially if singing is involved!

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: Taconicus
Date: 27 May 11 - 05:18 PM

Depends on what part of UK you're in. I'm guessing you shouldn't sing Battle of New Orleans by Jimmy Driftwood (James C. Morris) in an English folk club, but it would probably be well received in Scotland.

In 1814 we took a little trip
Along with Colonel Jackson down the mighty Mississip
We took a little bacon and we took a little beans
And we caught the bloody British in the town of New Orleans