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Dangerous Songs?
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Subject: Dangerous Songs? From: GUEST,SandyBob Date: 27 Jul 01 - 12:23 PM I remember an album of Pete Seeger's from the 1970s he titled "Dangerous Songs." What do you consider a dangerous song these days? SandyBob |
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Subject: RE: Dangerous Songs? From: mousethief Date: 27 Jul 01 - 12:30 PM Dangerous in what way? Dangerous to sing (the audience might rush the stage or run you out on a rail) or dangerous to society as a whole (they trivialize violence and other social evils) or something else? Alex |
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Subject: RE: Dangerous Songs? From: GUEST Date: 27 Jul 01 - 12:39 PM How about this for a definition of a dangerous song: a song is dangerous when it tells a difficult truth that society has closed it's ears to. SandyBob |
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Subject: RE: Dangerous Songs? From: mousethief Date: 27 Jul 01 - 12:45 PM That seems like a good definition. Hmmm. Dangerous songs. What about "One of us" by Joan Osborne? Alex |
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Subject: RE: Dangerous Songs? From: Wolfgang Date: 27 Jul 01 - 01:22 PM I know what you mean, SandyBob, with your definition but I'll nevertheless give you a completely different one: A song is dangerous if it increases the probability that humans are harmed. My 'dangerous songs' come from the German Neonazi scene in which 'hate song' against minorities find a willing audience. Lines like 'send the apes back to Africa' or 'kill ***, I want to see their blood flow, I want to stick a knife in them...' pave the way for violence. We have (not too many when considering the absolute figures, but more than enough nevertheless) our share of young skinheads going out at night with the sole intention to beat, kick and eventually kill any person with the wrong colour of skin. When asked by the police why they had done it they said they had listened to the respective music all evening and now wanted 'to do something'. These are my dangerous songs. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: Dangerous Songs? From: Phil Cooper Date: 27 Jul 01 - 01:27 PM According to the liner notes on the Seeger album (one of my favorites as well), a dangerous song can mean one thing to one, and something else to another. His example: a lullaby is dangerous to a child who doesn't want to be put to sleep. I like songs with teeth in them, be they traditional or contemporary, but folks who prefer folk-lite are disturbed by them sometimes. "One of Us," mentioned above could upset some fundamentalists. We got a phone call from someone who didn't like the fact that we recorded "Lady Diamond" on a tape they'd purchased. Pop music could certainly use more dangerous songs. |
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Subject: RE: Dangerous Songs? From: Jacob B Date: 27 Jul 01 - 01:50 PM I still don't understand in what way "Queen Anne Front" (which is on the Pete Seeger album) is dangerous. I love it, and recognize that it's a bit irreverent, but I don't see how it is dangerous to anyone. |
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Subject: RE: Dangerous Songs? From: Phil Cooper Date: 27 Jul 01 - 02:59 PM I think "Queen Anne Front" (a great song)is a sideways look at a deteriorating neighborhood. You don't have to hit people over the head with a banjo to make a point. I believe the song was written by an architect. I,too love the irrevence in it. |
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Subject: RE: Dangerous Songs? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 27 Jul 01 - 03:36 PM "Dangerous" is one of these words like "change" - on their own they don't give any indication which way they are pointing.
Anyone who says they are in favour of change, until they know what the change might be, is dangerously crazy, and the same goes for "danger".
But in the context of Pete Seeger, what I take it he means is something like "these are songs which are saying things that need to be said. And some people are going to see them as dangerous songs, and rightly so - because it could become harder for them to hold on to their unfair advantages, if other people really listen to these songs." |
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Subject: RE: Dangerous Songs? From: GUEST Date: 27 Jul 01 - 03:38 PM Wolfgang..I know what you are saying..but i would call those hate songs. I'm curious about the songs that cannot be sung because they make people uncomfortable and they *should.* What are the songs you get the most flack about when you sing them in public? What brings out the culture police? Phil..I love songs with teeth in them too. I think lullabies can be dangerous by my definition..I hear people complain sometimes about the "violence" in traditional lullabies like Go Tell Aunt Rhody. Turns out the "violence" is there for a deeper reason. Rosalee Sorrels used to do a whole schtick about every culture having violence in their lullabies. SandyBob |
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Subject: RE: Dangerous Songs? From: ard mhacha Date: 28 Jul 01 - 08:04 AM Dangerous songs?,go down the Shankill Road in Belfast singing"It`s a rare old team to play for".The Glasgow Celtic team song. You won`t come up it. Slan Ard Mhacha. |
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Subject: RE: Dangerous Songs? From: GUEST,Don Meixner Date: 28 Jul 01 - 08:49 AM I have always viewed a dangerous song as one that makes you think and question the current accepted order. Phil Ochs "Whats That I Hear" and I'm Gonna Say It Now." would be dangerous songs. During the 60's that great icon of idiocy, Rev. Billy James Hargis in his book "Rhytym, Riots, and Revolution" Identified "Beans in your Ears" as dangerous. In the back of the bookis page after page of communist inspired dangerous songs. Among them two instrumentals played by Doc Watson, "Windy and Warm" was one the other escapes my memory. "Little Boxes" and "The Pied Piper of Hamlin" were dangerous according to the Right Rev. And I believe Paxton's "Outward Bound" was also mentioned. Songs are only dangerous to people who are afraid of the power of music. To the people who understand its power it is a force for both good and bad. I always thought thats what Seeger was getting at with his title. Don |
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Subject: RE: Dangerous Songs? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 28 Jul 01 - 01:27 PM There are some songs that can be quite dangerous for the singer. Pete Seeger might have been thinking of that as well. We Shall Overcome could get your head smashed in, in some times and places.
Ask Vin Garbutt about some of the flack he has had singing Little Innocents and some others. |
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Subject: RE: Dangerous Songs? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 28 Jul 01 - 01:29 PM In fact I suspect thta if you'd been in Genoa last week you could have been talking your life in your hands singing something like Yellow Submarine. |
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Subject: RE: Dangerous Songs? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 28 Jul 01 - 03:05 PM Can there ever be a guaranteed "Safe Song"? (And would you want to sing it?) |
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Subject: RE: Dangerous Songs? From: Little Hawk Date: 28 Jul 01 - 03:19 PM Yup. Most of Shania Twain's songs are guaranteed "safe"...at least I think so. Those songs Wolfgang mentioned sound truly dangerous to me, in the sense he indicated. The "dangerous" type of protest song is not in style so much these days, and the more rebellious young bands play a style of music where it's quite hard to pick out the lyrics, I find, but maybe not for their fans. - LH |
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Subject: ADD: Going Across the Mountain (Proffitt)^^ From: Joe Offer Date: 28 Jul 01 - 03:30 PM Here is the list of songs from Seeger's Dangerous Songs CD. It's quite an interesting collection. I wonder how many we have posted in the database or the forum. I'll mark the ones I found in the DT. I found only one in the Forum. I'm ake the ones I can't find bold. -Joe Offer-
GOING ACROSS THE MOUNTAIN Going across the mountain, Oh, fare you well; Going across the mountain, You can hear my banjo tell. Got my rations on my back, My powder it is dry; I'm a-goin' across the mountain, Chrissie, don't you cry. Going across the mountain, To join the boys in blue; When this war is over, I'll come back to you. Going across the mountain, If I have to crawl, To give old Jeff's men A little of my rifle ball. Way before it's good daylight, If nothing happens to me, I'll be way down yander In old Tennessee. I expect you'll miss me when I'm gone, But I'm going through; When this war is over, I'll come back to you. Going across the mountain, Oh, fare you well; Going across the mountain, Oh, fare you well. (As sung by Frank Proffitt on the album "Frank Proffitt of Reese, North Carolina," Folk-Legacy CD). Frank's grandfather, a great admirer of Abraham Lincoln, chose to "go across the mountain to join the boys in blue" and fight against the Confederacy. @America @Civil @war @Confederate filename[ CROSMOUN JRO Oct01 ^^ |
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Subject: RE: Dangerous Songs? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 28 Jul 01 - 04:07 PM I think the real point Pete Seeger is making is that any good song is potentially "dangerous". It's the way you tell them.
I like that song Joe posted. I'd see it as dangerous three ways.
The man going over the mountain is in very dangerous situation. He's a rebel twice times over, liable to get shot by either side.
And I imagine it would still be a dangerous song to sing to some Southern audiences.
And at a deeper level, the song is saying there are times when your duty is to go against your own people and your own country. I imagine that in the days of the Vietnam War it could have been seen as very dangerous, very subversive.
And the times I've seen Pete Seeger in concert, those are the kind of issues that he'd bring out, singing a song that otherwise might have gone through as just a nice fun song. |
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Subject: RE: Dangerous Songs? From: Thomas the Rhymer Date: 28 Jul 01 - 06:47 PM Some songs step over the line more consistantly than others. 'Draft Dodger Rag' evokes smiles these days, being as it is sooo dated I would venture..., though it used to piss off multitudes. 'After the Ball' has begrunge'd many a macho-man's face as well... even though it is sweet. The amazing part of all this 'dangerousness' lies in our almost desperate desire to not rock the boat... even though we could swim faster and with less effort than it takes to sail the da*n thing... However, it has been cosistantly pointed out to me, that the 'energy' one sows, is the 'energy' one reaps... and if one does not ballence ones presentation, then... well, just ask Phil... What trips me up these days, are the outrageously dangerous lyrics in much of the cutting edge stuff over the last decades... the thing is, that they are rendered somewhat esoteric by our inability to understand them... and only the enthusiast of the bombastic tirade ever gets close to the lyric sheet... I would also venture, finally, that most of the songs I learn, and perhaps all the songs I write are at least a little dangerous, and like the Berrymans say, to be successful at it, you've got to nail everyone... You can't leave anyone out. When we walk out of the dusty old museum, the really exiting thing for me, is to present the 'dangerous' song so well, that it has ceased being 'dangerous' by the time it's last notes have rung out... Quantum leap social change. Or would you rather piss-em off, and keep the cycle pointless? ttr
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Subject: ADD: Walking Down Death Row (Seeger)^^ From: Joe Offer Date: 28 Jul 01 - 06:59 PM WALKING DOWN DEATH ROW (Pete Seeger) Walking down death row, I sang for three men, destined for the chair Walking down death row, I sang of lives and loves in other years. Walking down death row, I sang of hopes that used to be. Through the bars, into each sep'rate cell Yes I sang to one and two and three. "If you'd only stuck together you'd not be here If you could have loved each other's lives, you'd not be here! And if only this you would be you still might, you might still be reprieved Walking down death row, I turned the corner and found to my surprise, There were women there as well, With babies in their arms, before my eyes. Walking down death row I tried once more to sing of hopes that used to be But the thought of that contraption down the hall, Waiting for them all, one dozen, two, or three. CHORUS "If you'd not been so loyal to those damn fools, you'd not be here! If you could have loved another's child as well, you'd not be waiting here! And if only this you would believe You still might, you might still be reprieved." Walking down death row, I concentrated singing to the young. I sang of hopes that flickered still; I tried to mouth their many sep'rate tongues. (Chorus) Copyright 1966, Stormking Music Source: Sing Out! Collected Reprints (blue volume) @crime @jail @prison @death filename[ DEATHROW JRO Oct01^^ |
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Subject: RE: Dangerous Songs? From: Gareth Date: 28 Jul 01 - 07:17 PM Ard Mhacha, You may joke but I've seen it happen. The "Hole in the Wall" Tavern by Waterloo Station, in the days when it was a right cider drinking hole. BTW the pub seens in the film version of "Oliver" were filmed here which may give you some flavour of what it was like. There was a group of drunken Irish singing the old rebel songs. Or trying to. One of our company was a Scouse Prod', with 2 pints of snakebite inside him he starts on "The Sash" We were lucky to get out alive. Gareth |
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Subject: RE: Dangerous Songs? From: paddymac Date: 28 Jul 01 - 07:26 PM There was many a song considered seditious by crown authorities in Ireland back in the "bad old days", and many considered "theosophically seditious" by the church authorities when they supplanted the crown as an authority figure. The supression of thought is a far greater "sedition" than any song pointing out political or religious idiocies of the day. Even what most of us would rightly call "hate songs" should have free access to that mythical market place of ideas, where they earn more scorn than anything. Political and religious supression in Ireland were countered by emergence of brilliant satires, which were more effective in delivering the message that any more overt lyric was likely to have been. My all-time favorite in that category is "Whack Fol The Diddle". Any marketer on the west side of the pond will tell you that there is no greater ad slogan than to claim a thing is "banned" somewhere. It's a great "tease". |
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Subject: ADD: I Mind My Own Business ^^ From: Joe Offer Date: 28 Jul 01 - 07:30 PM I think this is probably the "King Henry" on Seeger's album. "Birmingham Sunday" would certainly be another dangerous song. -Joe Offer- I MIND MY OWN BUSINESS (Peter Seeger) King Henry marched forth, a sword in his hand Two thousand horsemen all at his command In a fortnight, the rivers ran red through the land The year, fifteen-hundred-and-twenty. The year is now nineteen-sixty-five It's easier far to stay alive Just keep your mouth shut while the planes zoom and dive Ten thousand miles over the ocean. Simon was drafted in sixty-three In sixty-four, sent over the sea Last month this letter he sent to me He said, you won't like what I'm saying. He said, we've no friends here, no, hardly a one We've got a few generals who just want our guns But it'll take more than them if we're ever to win Why, we'll have to flatten the country. It's my own troops I have to watch out for, he said I sleep with a pistol right under my head He wrote this last month, last week he was dead And Simon came home in a casket. I mind my own business, I watch my TV Complain about taxes, but pay anyway In a civilized manner, my forefathers betray Who long ago struggled for freedom. But each day a new headline screams at my bluff On TV some general says, "We must be tough" In my dreams, I stare at this family I love All gutted and spattered with napalm. (Repeat first two verses) Pete Seeger wrote these words to the same tune as "Birmingham Sunday," an old ballad melody (I Loved a Lass). The quote in the fifth verse is from an actual letter from a U. S. "advisor"to his wife a week before he was killed in Viet Nam. Copyright 1965 by Peter Seeger Source: Sing Out! Collected Reprints (Blue Volume) @war @soldier @Vietnam filename[ KINGHNRY JRO Oct01 ^^ |
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Subject: Lyr Add: EQUINOXIAL / LITTLE PHOEBE ^^ From: Joe Offer Date: 28 Jul 01 - 07:51 PM EQUINOXIAL (Little Phoebe) Equinoxial swore by the green leaves on the trees, trees, Little Phoebe standing there and this is what she said: It's you must milk the brindle cow that stands in yonder stall, And you must churn that crock of cream that I left in the frame, And you must wind that hank of yarn that I spun yesterday, Little Phoebe took the whip and went to follow the plow, The brindle cow she turned around and sniffled up her nose, He went to feed the little pig that stands in yonder sty, He went to turn that crock of cream that she left in a frame, He went to wind that hank of yarn that she spin yesterday, He looked to the East and he looked to the West and he saw the setting sun, Presently Little Phoebe came and saw him looking sad,
DT #343 |
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Subject: ADD: Full Fathom Five (Shakespeare) From: Joe Offer Date: 28 Jul 01 - 08:20 PM FULL FATHOM FIVE (William Shakespeare) [Ding, ding, ding, ding dong bell]* * Added by Vaughan Williams; permeates the text. Text by William Shakespeare (1564-1616), from The Tempest, Act I, scene ii. Ariel, the airy spirit of the enchanted isle, sings this song to lead the shipwrecked Ferdinand, prince of Naples, to Prospero. I didn't have any luck with "Perchance To Win" - closest I could come was the "To be or not to be" speech from Hamlet: To sleep, perchance to dream: Aye, there's the rub.-Joe Offer-
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Subject: RE: Dangerous Songs? From: SandyBob Date: 29 Jul 01 - 01:30 AM Joe..thanks for posting the Seeger songs! These are still dangerous, vigorous, wonderous songs. Amazing. By the way I enjoyed singing with you at Margo's when you were out this way. I agree with Thomas..the amazing thing about what makes so few wander into dangerous territory is the desperate desire to not offend anyone. How do the kids grow up knowing how to spot the truth if everyone is so terrified of offending? What seeds get sown by this? And I agree with Paddymac, the suppression of thought is far greater sedition than any particular expression in song. I think some bawdy songs are dangerous. Certainly not because they are bawdy but some of them express truths. Any favorites? I like the honesty of Robert Burn's bawdy songs for example. SandyBob |
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Subject: RE: Dangerous Songs? From: Mudlark Date: 29 Jul 01 - 01:31 AM Given the outrageous statistics on child endangerment in the current century, I think Cruel Mother is still trenchant, still dangerous in that it speaks to something nobody likes to think about but exists nonetheless. Another great lullaby-antiwar song,... Crow on the Cradle ("If it should be that your baby's a girl, never you mind if her hair doesn't curl....rings on her fingers, bells on her toes, a bomber above her wherever she goes."). Heh heh, and then there's always the cautionary Alway With Rum....the Song of the Salvation Army..... |
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Subject: RE: Dangerous Songs? From: ard mhacha Date: 29 Jul 01 - 06:24 AM Gareth, Believe me friend, I wasn`t joking. Slan Ard Mhacha. |
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Subject: RE: Dangerous Songs? From: Gareth Date: 29 Jul 01 - 04:30 PM Ard Mhacha, No, I don't suppose you were, what a sad world we live in. Gareth |
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Subject: RE: Dangerous Songs? From: GUEST,Hallion Date: 30 Jul 01 - 04:28 AM Ard Mhacha ... It'd be just as dangerous for someone from the other persuasion to wander through Kilwilkie singing a song associated with Rangers. It's not all one-way traffic. Reminds me that I got into bother once for singing "The Oul' Orange Flute" in a pub in Dungannon - if ever there was a song that could be sung by both parties without causing either offence (or offending both equally), then that's the one! These things piss me off so much that when I've kicked off sessions, I've insisted that we do a medley of marches where we go from "The Wearing Of The Green" into "The Sash" ... works pretty well ... now and again somebody's eyebrows go through the top of their head! |
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Subject: RE: Dangerous Songs? From: ard mhacha Date: 30 Jul 01 - 01:39 PM Guest Hallion, That goes without saying, any one with a semblance of savvy would have figured that out. As for mixing your repertoire you wouldn`t have a fraction of the songs on the Orange side, this bye the way from a good prod friend of mine. Yes, we have all the good ones. Slan Ard Mhacha. |
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Subject: RE: Dangerous Songs? From: Jacob B Date: 30 Jul 01 - 03:24 PM To sleep, perchance to dream, Aye, there's the rub. To fight, perchance to win, Aye, there's the rub. For the children of the children of the victors Will forget, and in turn oppress. Goliath, Goliath, bound in steel Goliath, Goliath, fell on the field A little boy, not fully grown Brought him down with a sling and a stone Goliath's mother wept and mourned Remembering the day when he was born Goliath's children got the blame Goliath, Goliath, got the shame |
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Subject: ADD: Queen Anne Front^^ From: Jacob B Date: 30 Jul 01 - 04:05 PM QUEEN ANNE FRONT (Schmertz) When Great Grandfather was a gay young man And Great Grandmother was his bride They found a lot, a jolly little spot Over on the old North Side It sloped down toward the river, from River Avenue Great Grandma said that it would give her Such a lovely view So they took a look in Godey's Ladies Book To see what they could find And they found a house, a jolly little house, With a Queen Anne front And a Mary Anne behind. Now, Great Grandfather was a handy man Who never wasted any time He found a crew that knew just what to do With white pine, common brick, and lime. He said, "I'll build a big veranda, where Amanda can perch. "And I'll sit there myself on Sunday mornings "When everybody else has gone to church." The neighbors said, "He's crazy in the head "He's surely lost his mind." But he built that house, that jolly little house, With a Queen Anne front And a Mary Anne behind. Now, Great Grandpa at last was laid to rest With Great Grandmother at his side. Old Aunt Amanda said, "My land, an "Empty house I can't abide. "I'll start a ladies' seminary, it will be very select. "Of course, it will be very necessary "That all my girls be circumspect." As you may guess, it was a big success Those girls were so refined In that self-same house, that jolly little house, With a Queen Anne front And a Mary Anne behind. Now, Aunt Amanda's work at last was done And she passed on to her reward. Appeared a sign that bore the line Announcing simply, "Room and Board." The house was soon filled with roomers, of every degree Red flannel underwear and bloomers Hung out for everyone to see. The old porch stoop had started in to droop The house looked so resigned That self-same house, that jolly little house, With a Queen Anne front And a Mary Anne behind. Now that old house was looking worse and worse And so was River Avenue. Wooden shacks across the tracks Spoiled Great Grandma's lovely view. A group of very pretty ladies moved in there one day. The were such pretty Sues and Sadies But a wagon came and took them all away. Said one old dame, "Now isn't it a shame "My girls were so refined." But they closed that house, that jolly little house, With a Queen Anne front And a Mary Anne behind. ^^ |
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Subject: LYR ADD From: Jacob B Date: 30 Jul 01 - 10:32 PM I should have put ADD in the subject for the above two threads. Here it is now. |
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Subject: RE: Dangerous Songs? From: Jacob B Date: 31 Jul 01 - 03:22 PM Now I know why Queen Anne Front is considered a dangerous song. I seem to have killed the thread with it! As for the meaning of the two fragments of poetry by Pete Seeger that I posted above: in the 1960s, when the album came out, a bit of thought translated them into political references. Vietnam was the small boy that had brought down a giant, and America had forgotten the lessons of its fight for independence and was oppressing. The album had other subtle political references as well, such as Pete explaining at the end of Beans In Your Ears that it was a "zipper song" to which other verses could be added. He demonstrated by singing a verse for "Mrs. Jay's little song Alby." "Hey, Alby Jay, you've got beans in your ears ..." If you remember who was president from 1963 to 1968 ... |
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Subject: RE: Dangerous Songs? From: John MacKenzie Date: 31 Jul 01 - 03:39 PM Joe Offer, I haven't heard that Equinoxial song for years. There used to be a folk-club on the Upper Richmond Rd in West London run by a guy called Joe ??, and a lovely lady called Marion Segal, never heard it since. You weren't the Joe ?? in question were you? Jock |
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Subject: RE: Dangerous Songs? From: Daystar Date: 31 Jul 01 - 05:18 PM Tend to agree its where and when you sing them! Long time ago freind of mine was asked to sing at a funneral He did not have brain in gear and did Give me the Roses while I Live There had been shall we saye some neglect from the relitives in that way He was asked to leave and not come back! |
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Subject: RE: Dangerous Songs? From: Joe Offer Date: 31 Jul 01 - 06:23 PM Haven't been to Great Britain yet, Giok. I'm a Wisconsin boy exiled in California. Jacob, do you have more information of the songwriter for "Queen Anne"? -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: Dangerous Songs? From: Gareth Date: 31 Jul 01 - 06:41 PM Dangerous but from the other side of the spectrum, that Church of England hymn "All things bright and Beutiful, All creatures great and small, .....
Remember the verse :- Thank the Lord that the Anglican Church in Wales is disestablished (Not the State Religion) Gareth
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Subject: RE: Dangerous Songs? From: Jacob B Date: 02 Aug 01 - 09:36 AM Queen Anne Front is credited on the album to "Pittsburgh architect Bob Schmertz". "To fight" and Goliath are by Pete Seeger. |
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Subject: RE: Dangerous Songs? From: English Jon Date: 03 Aug 01 - 09:05 AM Wild rover. Sing it anywhere near me and I'll stab you in the foot with a pencil. EJ |
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