 sj |
||
|
||
BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
|
|
|
Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett From: The Sandman Date: 09 Jan 10 - 07:56 AM and from a totally different source. this. Shaking Hands: Iraqi President Saddam Hussein greets Donald Rumsfeld, then special envoy of President Ronald Reagan, in Baghdad on December 20, 1983. Shaking Hands with Saddam Hussein: The U.S. Tilts toward Iraq, 1980-1984 National Security Archive Electronic Briefing Book No. 82 Edited by Joyce Battle February 25, 2003 Print this page Jump to documents Washington Post "Live Online" chat with Archive Middle East Analyst Joyce Battle, "Iraq: Declassified Documents of U.S. Support for Hussein," February 27, 2003 Video Clip: "Shaking Hands with Saddam Hussein," Iraqi President Saddam Hussein greets Donald Rumsfeld, then special envoy of President Ronald Reagan, in Baghdad on December 20, 1983. [Windows Media Video (WMV). Opens in Windows Media Player] (Iraqi television; courtesy CNN) High Resolution (2.54 MB) Low Resolution (734 KB) The Iran-Iraq war (1980-1988) was one of a series of crises during an era of upheaval in the Middle East: revolution in Iran, occupation of the U.S. embassy in Tehran by militant students, invasion of the Great Mosque in Mecca by anti-royalist Islamicists, the Soviet Union's occupation of Afghanistan, and internecine fighting among Syrians, Israelis, and Palestinians in Lebanon. The war followed months of rising tension between the Iranian Islamic republic and secular nationalist Iraq. In mid-September 1980 Iraq attacked, in the mistaken belief that Iranian political disarray would guarantee a quick victory.
-Joe Offer- |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 09 Jan 10 - 01:04 PM Now, isn't it strange. Dick can cut and paste vast amounts from a site and no-one bats an eyelid or makes a comment..but..if *I* do it, all hell breaks loose... Weird, huh? And *that*, peter is what proves to me that the hysteria is all part of the witch hunt.. And now, back to Wootton Bassett... |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett From: Rasener Date: 09 Jan 10 - 01:08 PM Is it on or not? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 09 Jan 10 - 01:50 PM Yes, it's still on.... It seems the local police want it to happen, but the Home Secretary has said he'll back any call for it to be banned, if the police ask him. Muslim Leaders condemn march........ |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett From: Peter K (Fionn) Date: 09 Jan 10 - 02:13 PM Give me a chance, Lizzie. Good Soldier Schweik's cutting and pasting does indeed fly in the face of guidance in the Mudcat FAQs, and I am particularly surprised that he did it so soon after someone cited the relevant guidance. Presumably Max is more relaxed about the practice than when the FAQs were last updated, otherwise a moderator would have taken corrective action in respect of both Lizzie's and GSS's blatant transgressions. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett From: Folkiedave Date: 09 Jan 10 - 02:34 PM And for the record I think Dick was wrong to cut and paste a huge piece like that rather than provide a link. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett From: The Sandman Date: 09 Jan 10 - 02:45 PM my apologies. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 09 Jan 10 - 02:49 PM There is NO need to apologise, Dick. Don't give in to them. No-one has to read it if they don't want to, it really is that easy. >>>And for the record I think Dick was wrong to cut and paste a huge piece like that rather than provide a link.<<< Oh yeah? Bet you'd not have said a WORD about it if I hadn't pointed that out! Dick posted that at 7.56am....and it took you ALL that time, Dave..? Come ON, you'd have been there INSTANTLY if that had been me. And.....it doesn't worry or upset me at all that Dick posted all those words. Not one little bit. Now, back to Wootton Bassett, which has seen enough sadness these past months/years, without having to have the possible memory of anger and hatred on their streets.
-Joe Offer- |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 09 Jan 10 - 03:09 PM OK, Carol, tell me this..... WHAT would you do to make women's lives not only better, but FREE, in Afghanistan? The Taliban stink. The War Lords stink. The country is ruled and filled with misogynists who are NOT going to set their women free.... So how do you help these poor women? How do you get to them? What do you do? Do you just walk away and leave them to these men who beat them, burn them, rape them? Do you leave a land where women have to turn to prostitution if their husbands die? Do you leave a land where women have TWO rights, The Right To Pray (but not in the mosque) and The Right to Obey Their Husbands? Does the West truly turn its back and leave them to their fate? Yes, the millitary, the war, is causing even more problems, but when that is all over and done with, those poor women are left to the non-existant mercy of those bastards! How do you not only educate the women, but educate the MEN? How do you break this terrible cycle of hatred towards women that has grown out of a Holy Book?????? This video contains highly unpleasant pictures of scarred and burnt women, so please do not open if it may upset you, but just think of what they are having to endure, each and every day.... The Women of Afghanistan..... |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 09 Jan 10 - 03:10 PM HOW do you turn Islam BACK to Peace? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett From: CarolC Date: 09 Jan 10 - 03:20 PM What the women in Afghanistan have said they want is financial support for rebuilding their country and society and for funding their efforts to make their lives better. I think that's a good start. I think we should let them tell us what they want. I don't believe we help them by acting all paternalistic with them, patting them on their heads, telling them we know what's best for them, and then cramming that down their throats. Let's start listening to them and getting our guidance on how to help from them. I think they are perfectly capable of knowing what's in their best interests. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett From: Rasener Date: 09 Jan 10 - 03:27 PM Finally the last few posts seem to be hitting at the point that women need to be protected against men who seem to think that they can treat women as second class citizens. To me that is a problem in this world and has nothing to do with religion. In our house we are all equal. I have to say that as I have a wife and 2 daughters :-) I am against the protest, but support womens rights, that are not influenced by what men dictate. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett From: CarolC Date: 09 Jan 10 - 03:31 PM Are you willing to actually listen to the women in question, about what they want though, Villan, or are you, like Lizzie, of the more paternalistic school of thought that seems so prevalent in our Western countries, that the women in countries like Afghanistan are not able to make decisions for themselves? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett From: Folkiedave Date: 09 Jan 10 - 03:43 PM Oh yeah? Bet you'd not have said a WORD about it if I hadn't pointed that out! Dick posted that at 7.56am....and it took you ALL that time, Dave..? Come ON, you'd have been there INSTANTLY if that had been me. Well such a statement is easily tested Lizzie, you posted a long link precisely like that one. Now point out where I said anything to you about it? Let alone instantly. As usual you talk a load of horlicks. Poorly researched horlicks. For the third time on this thread. Like I said Lizzie you are not doing very well on this one. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 09 Jan 10 - 04:31 PM "Like I said Lizzie you are not doing very well on this one." Ya know, you should maybe try living in Afghanistan, Dave. The way you talk to me and about me....I'm sure you'd find a few men over there who you'd *really* get along with. FKOFUCF YWH TN'OD OYU...... |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett From: Rasener Date: 09 Jan 10 - 04:41 PM Well Carol, I am not prepared to listen to that guy. Whilst I support womens rights, I have enough on my plate with my health and having special needs with both my daughters, I unfortunately have to look at our survival. That doesn't mean that I am not interested in such issues. If you can support such issues then that is great. I am so anti BNP and am scared what damage they can do, together with such protest marches. However what with the concert venue I run and my own family issues, its as much as I can cope with. You may not believe this but I hate violence in whatever shape or form, that may be. That doesn't stop me getting angry. Les |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 09 Jan 10 - 04:51 PM GSS, so Sadam DID have nukes!? That is an amazing, history changing revelation! What happened to them ? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett From: CarolC Date: 09 Jan 10 - 05:00 PM Villan, I've already said I vehemently disagree with "that guy's" agenda. I have only posted in this thread because of the tone of it. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett From: Ruth Archer Date: 09 Jan 10 - 05:15 PM "HOW do you turn Islam BACK to Peace?" The whole point is that it's a misrepresentation to suggest that Islam has turned away from peace in the first place. This constant conflation of the acts of a handful of extremists with the views of mainstream Muslims is ignorant, misleading and very damaging. You might just as well have said, 10 or 15 years ago, "How do you turn the Irish back to peace?" - when it was, in fact, a tiny handful of extremists who were responsible for the terrorist attacks. This attitude and divisive language is what leads to further marginalisation and separation, not unity and not racial harmony. Muslims condemn march Young Muslims condemn march in anti-extremism rally Muslim leaders condemn proposed march |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett From: Rasener Date: 09 Jan 10 - 05:17 PM Carol I think some times thats where things go wrong on Mudcat. We probably all have the same viewpoint, but are unable to express our viewpoints in a way that causes a group freindship where we really support the same issues. Shame really. Les |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett From: Folkiedave Date: 09 Jan 10 - 05:24 PM FKOFUCF YWH TN'OD OYU...... FKOFUCF is usually spelt as two words. And in the TN'OD the apostrophe is usually placed between the "T" and the "N". Can't you get ANYTHING correct? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett From: Royston Date: 09 Jan 10 - 05:29 PM @Lizzie HOW do you turn Islam BACK to Peace? You people never fail to amaze me. A handful of loons amongst 2 billion Muslims and some freak from Cornwall judges all of them to be the same? Ruth A, just give it up as a lost cause. Lizzie, if we are to judge you by your own words, tell us: In what way are you not a desicable bigot? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett From: Royston Date: 09 Jan 10 - 05:30 PM ...or even a despicable bigot |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett From: Joe Offer Date: 09 Jan 10 - 06:41 PM OK, everybody, settle down. Things are getting a bit nasty here. And yes, the one-screen limit on non-music copy-pastes applies to everybody - but Guests are subject to full review and more likely to get caught. Lizzie posted as a guest, and got caught. Eventually, Dick Miles got caught, too. If you feel the urge to post somebody else's words, keep it less than one screen - or post an excerpt or summary, plus a link. -Joe Offer- |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 09 Jan 10 - 06:52 PM I 'got caught'? Come on, Joe...for heaven's sake....WHY are you giving in to them like this? Others post reviews, articles, whatever, and nowt happens. I post as 'Gust Lizzie Cornish' now and then cos my 'cookies' have gone AWOL at present, darn things... OK, Royston, as to you bigotted words. I tell you what, why don't you read my posts, and you'll find I'm far from racist, but totally hacked off with Extremists. However, until The Voice of the Two Billion starts to drown out The Voice of the Handful, this world will continue to be in deep shite. At present, this world is being literally held to ransom by a minority of mad folks, who are hellbent on violence, murder and destruction, and they don't give a shit who they kill or maim, in fact...they REJOICE in the carnage. 'Ruth'...if you read my earlier post, you'll see that I had already posted a link to an article where the Muslim leaders have spoken out AGAINST this march. I expect you missed it, in your furore to prove that I am the racist you *know* I am to be. May I, as ever, refer you back to your own words about me...and ask how the hell you have the gall to even raise your head in this thread, when your own actions and words against me have been along exactly the same lines as any racist. And Dave....I have my own language, always have had...therefore I ain't bothered about joined up words or a'po'st'ropheeez. The message contained within the letters is what counts, I always feel, no matter the grammar. The Voice of Two Billion should be making a noise SO loud that all else is drowned out. I don't hear it in the way I should... It is way past time that the Two Billion reclaimed Islam, as Yusuf Islam has been trying to get them to do, for a very long time now. If there is anyone who can unite Islam in the right way, it is Yusuf..and he is being listened to now, and respected, by many of the major religious leaders of Islam. I can only pray that they take his words and his message to heart, because, as I said way back in this thread somewhere, he is the only Islam for whom I have respect at the moment, because he preaches peace.... |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 09 Jan 10 - 07:01 PM Yusuf's Journey to Islam - Youtube |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett From: Ruth Archer Date: 09 Jan 10 - 07:25 PM "how the hell you have the gall to even raise your head in this thread" The fact that you can continually compare yourself to the most victimised and marginalised people in society is merely evidence of how very little you understand what it is to be really discriminated against; it's also evident of your complete self-obsession, inability to keep anything in proportion, and total lack of self-awareness. You are aggressive and you post inflammatory, unsubstantiated and divisive rubbish. That's why I have the "gall" to post in this thread. Free speech, remember? Not just for you. "I expect you missed it, in your furore to prove that I am the racist you *know* I am to be." Well, you are the one who keeps banging on with things like "If they don't like the way we do things, they should get out of our country", "We are becoming second class citizens in our own country", talking about all the rights that immigrants get that are not afforded to the indigenous population, and asking questions like "How do we turn Islam BACK to peace?" If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck... |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett From: Royston Date: 09 Jan 10 - 07:36 PM Lizzie, exactly who or what do you think you are? A nut and his willing accomplices in the media get you wound up. You then lump 1.999999999bn others into your bitter little stew of prurient outrage and then, what, all those folks have to come and beg for your forgiveness? For something they haven't done? From the links that many have posted here, it appears that all mainstream British Muslim organisations have managed to get their condemnation of Choudary into the public sphere. Still not enough for the twisted sister from Cornwall? What would be enough for you? It makes a change for mainstream peaceful Muslim voices to get into the press - see Ruth A's links earlier this evening. Guess what Liz, unless you happen to be a cuddly rock star preaching bearded peace - or on the other side, a mad bearded hellfire preacher - the media isn't exactly interested in you. There aren't many column inches in "Muslim wakes up, goes to work, worries about the mortgage, goes home to his/her partner and kids and goes to sleep without blowing him/herself up" which is pretty much the default way of being. You need to address your anger and bitterness issues before you start demanding behaviours from innocent others. I didn't call you racist. I called you a bigot. •bigoted - Being a bigot; biased; strongly prejudiced; forming opinions without just cause Which is a pretty accurate opinion of and about you, based on what you yourself have said and done here. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 09 Jan 10 - 08:29 PM I haven't mentioned any 'rights' that 'immigrants' get, actually. In fact, I haven't even mentioned the word 'immigrants' at all. But don't let that stop you spinning..... I HAVE said that I'm sick of people knocking my country, and I stick by that. I also stick by feeling that if you don't like this country, then bugger off and leave it...and I don't give a damn what colour your skin is, or if you have religion or not. This country's people are kind, welcoming, generous and tolerant, even if we are run by prats, and I am sick fed up of being made to feel that if you dare state that fact, or complain about people who do nothing but say how much they dislike the British/English, then you're a racist. Nope, what I said Royston, was that we are hearing the wrong Voice of Islam..and that Voice, at the moment, is putting this world into chaos....Time for other voices to step forward, bigtime and make it plain that no way is the rest of the Islamic World going to tolerate these murderers and extremists who are using the name of Allah to hide behind. There are many, many ways in which the Muslim Leaders can get their voices heard. Thank goodness they are now starting to jump and down with the rest of us about these Extremists. I'm sorry if that doesn't fit your image of me, but tough...and I don't live in Cornwall, but I can assure you that if I did, I'd find racism abounds, because many of the Cornish don't even start to accept anyone as belonging there until they've lived there for around 5 generations or more....and the Devon folks aren't that different in some places either, particularly Dartmoor....where you're regarded as a Grockle or an Emmit for many, many years, in some places, no matter how you try to fit in. I know. I live here. And I know many people who've moved here and to Cornwall too. It's a tribal thing. :0) And in answer to you asking who the hell do I think I am? I'm just me, nothing more, nothing less. Too stooopid to rile people....too stoooopid to get people following me around the internet....too stoooopid to have the power to incense people....tooooo stoopid to make them think....so I'd not worry your little head about me too much... ;0) I'm just fed up with the Evil in this world at present and think it's way past time for the Good Men and True to return, BIGTIME, because we have all walked away and buried our heads...and in doing so, we have let Evil in... |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett From: GUEST,999 Date: 09 Jan 10 - 08:33 PM 'Nineteen Canadian imams and one American have signed the fatwa to date. " The Koran teaches us that we have an obligation to stop violence. We live in a non-Muslim country called Canada where Muslims and others live side by side, and this is our country, too. "Our children are born here. Our future children will live here. That's why we have to oppose this violence."' From a link posted by 3refs on another thread. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett From: Ruth Archer Date: 09 Jan 10 - 09:09 PM "too stoooopid to have the power to incense people....tooooo stoopid to make them think..." Yes, Lizzie, we all know how clever you think you are. The BNP incense people. The Daily Mail incenses people. The moronic trolls who linger on the periphery at Mudcat incense people. Pissing people off is not the same thing as making them think. It doesn't take brains or power - sometimes, as in this case, it just takes a lot of inflammatory language and an obstinate insistence on posting unsubstantiated and defamatory rubbish. From Lizzie: "And therein lies the danger of the BNP, Carol....because many people are shite fed up in this country with feeling that the host nation has surrendered so very much, that we have become almost second class citizens in our own land. You have to treat *everyone* equally, otherwise you create far more problems than you could ever dream of." So what you're saying is that the danger of the BNP is that, when you hold bigoted beliefs, it turns out that your politics are actually quite close to theirs. Yes, that is quite dangerous. The "host nation" has surrendered what, exactly? Despite your protestations above where you say you've not mentioned immigrants, does this post not imply that you believe Britain HAS surrendered these things, whatever they are, to people from outside the "host nation" - ie immigrants? When I asked you for examples of what you have surrendered, and how you have become a second-class citizen in "your" own land, or for ways that people from outside the "host nation" have been given more privileges than you (thereby making you "less equal" on some level), you couldn't provide any evidence. Quelle surprise. In fact, as many people have pointed out, Choudary (who was born in London, so he is presently in his "host nation") is merely exercising the very same rights and privileges that any British person would be able to exercise. By wishing to deny him (or anyone else who holds views of which you do not approve) this right, you are undermining fundamental British freedoms. Even if you disapprove of Choudary's ideology and approach (and I do), he is taking part in the great tradition of dissent, which is a cornerstone of British democracy. Instead of more ill-informed ranting in here, I suggest you go and read some Thomas Paine. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett From: Royston Date: 10 Jan 10 - 05:37 AM Well. old git, that was exactly the same guidance issued 60's to 90's in respect of IRA and UDF Terrorism. Reasonable people were at pains to remove the word "Irish" from "Terrorism" so that innocent Irish are not assocated with the acts of a minority of murderous, politically motivated criminals. Innocent Muslims deserve exactly the same respect and courtesy, don't they? If you believe that they don't, what does that make you? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 10 Jan 10 - 05:51 AM 999, thank you for that..and to 3refs for his thread on the Imams of Canada issuing a fatwa against terrorists. That is EXACTLY what is needed, right around the world, and now, hopefully, the REAL Muslims will stand together to take back their religion and make Islam what it should be, a peaceful religion and way of life. 'Ruth'....give it up, please. I ain't no racist, but I'm sick of bully boys coming over here to harm us, divide us, attack us, bringing their religious and tribal hatreds to our streets and towns. Read what the Imams have said in that thread....and you will find that they have the same views as I do..... So tell me, are THEY racist too?????????????????? Canadian Imams speak out against terrorists - The Article |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett From: Dave the Gnome Date: 10 Jan 10 - 05:56 AM And still it goes on? Point about protest in Wooton Bassett lost, move on to Islam in general. Point about Islam lost, move onto Womens rights. Point about Womens rights lost. Move on to victimisation of posters. Point about victimisation of posters lost, move onto questioning Mudcat policy... Can I suggest the next move please? What about all this bloody snow? It was never like this before the Poles arived. If they come into this country they should live with OUR weather, not bring in their own! :D (eG) |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett From: Dave the Gnome Date: 10 Jan 10 - 06:15 AM Huge difference in stating that Islamic terrorists are not true to Islam and that the protest in Wooton Bassett is Islamic though, Lizzie. Whereas the former deplores acts of terrorism the latter lumps all Moslems in the same boat. Can you not see that? Cheers DeG |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett From: Royston Date: 10 Jan 10 - 06:19 AM Lizzie, I keep explaining to you, and people like you, how you are brainwashed - or as you yourself claim, how you are too stoooopid - but you all refuse to see it and/or refuse to act. In early December there was a media hype about an Islamic preacher visiting Westminster University - Imam Abu Usamah A group, for which I volunteer (Imaan) were going to campaign against this person being allowed to speak at the University, because of reports that he was a homophobic cleric who had advocated the death penalty for homosexuals. However, we investigated first and discovered Imam Abu Usamah was featured in a Channel 4 documentary called "Undercover Mosque" which attributed comments to Imam Abu Usamah that pointed to the fact that he was a terrible homophobe. There were investigations by the West Midlands Police into various allegations against several Muslims featured in the documentary. There was no evidence found to press any charges. In fact Imam Abu Usamah strongly denied the claims made about him, and the Crown Prosecution Service's (CPS) lawyer who looked into the TV documentary that raised this issue in the first place said: "The splicing together of extracts from longer speeches appears to have completely distorted what the speakers were saying". The CPS lawyer went further and criticised Channel 4 for "totally distorting" what Abu Usamah and others had said. This then lead to the West Midlands Police formally complaining to the TV regulator, Ofcom, and the CPS was asked to consider a prosecution of Channel 4 under the Public Order Act 1986 for showing material likely to stir up racial hatred. The Police were advised that there was insufficient evidence, while Ofcom said it also found no evidence that the programme "Undercover Mosque" had misled its audience. CPS lawyer Bethan David, who scrutinised 56 hours of media footage, only some of which was used in the broadcast, said: "The splicing together of extracts from longer speeches appears to have completely distorted what the speakers were saying." The CPS lawyer also said that "To try and demonise the efforts of these people by taking their comments out of context was shocking." Abu Usamah has said that he had been featured in the documentary as saying that homosexuals should be thrown from a mountain when in fact he was explaining that it was an opinion featured in some books, but it was not one he shared. This story can be viewed at: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/west_midlands/6936681.stm Of course, its no small coincidence that the press stories against Westminster Uni occured in the same week that minarets were banned in Switzerland, and when a group of Muslim students who were leaving a prayer room were viciously attacked at London's City University with metal batons, bricks and fireworks. Several of those students were hospitalised. So you see Lizzie, everyone - you included - needs to be a little less hysterical about this and needs to apply some independent thought. The media lies to you. For god's sake, Channel 4 takes liberal, "cuddly" muslims and edits them into monsters to the extent that the channel was almost charged with a criminal offence. What hope do "Real Muslims" have in the face of these onslaughts from the media and from people like you as their wilful accomplices. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett From: Backwoodsman Date: 10 Jan 10 - 06:32 AM And that piece of excellent reasoning and writing, Royston, should be the Final Word on this thread, but I'd bet a pound to a pinch of snuff it isn't. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett From: Ruth Archer Date: 10 Jan 10 - 06:40 AM But Lizzie, what you SAID was "How do we turn Islam BACK to peace?" That doesn't imply an understanding that we are dealing with a few extremists who are giving the whole of the Muslim world a bad name. That implies a belief that all, or a majority, of Muslims is on a path which is not about peaceful co-existence, but about war-mongering and intolerance. Early on in this thread you despaired that moderate Muslims do not speak out against the extremists. Since then you've been presented with example after example of the fact that they DO, but it clearly isn't an interesting enough news story to be reported in a way that gives balance and proportion to the whole issue. So maybe you'd like to retract your question above, and acknowledge that we do not need to "turn Islam BACK to peace," but instead have to find a way to accommodate all sorts of beliefs within this multi-cultural society. That includes many in the "host nation" developing a bit more tolerance, and not using isolated acts of extremism to justify their bigotry. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett From: Folkiedave Date: 10 Jan 10 - 07:08 AM Lizzie, I keep explaining to you, Royston, a number of people have been explaining things to Lizzie for a number of years. Welcome to the club. This post has it about right. Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett From: David el Gnomo - PM Date: 10 Jan 10 - 05:56 AM There is always a final bit. She flounces off promising never to return to Mudcat again. About a month later she comes back. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett From: GUEST,old git Date: 10 Jan 10 - 07:12 AM News just in. The controversial Islamic group which planned to march through a town where processions are held for dead British soldiers will be banned. Islam4UK said it would stage an anti-war march through Wootton Bassett in Wiltshire with members carrying empty coffins. Home Secretary Alan Johnson would outlaw the group as early as Monday. It said comments made by senior members of Islam4UK and on websites breached the Terrorism Act. So no need to keep fighting here folks ! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett From: Royston Date: 10 Jan 10 - 07:18 AM Thanks O G, Or, as Muslims everywhere will be saying, Mash'Allah. It means thanks be to God. But people, please take note of the media and bigotry issues, which this affair has exposed. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 10 Jan 10 - 07:32 AM I think you'll find I was the first to present an example in a link to Muslims themselves speaking out, actually, Ruth....sorry if that offends and yet again foils your plot to prove that I am a racist. The good voices have been too quiet for too long, but now, it would seem...and especially with the Canadian Imams now issuing a Fatwa against Terrorists, that they are beginning to realise that their religion is being so deeply harmed by these Extremists. The whole world needs to join in with annhilating this evil, be it suicide bombers on planes, or bastards randomly shooting Togo's football players. This terror needs to be routed from the world, but it cannot be done if people are told they cannot even mention the fact in the first place. It is this silence, this fear of being branded 'racist' that has let the evil become stronger and stronger within societies. If something is wrong, then it shouted out about. Royston...that is one example of things going wrong and being abused. They should have been taken to court over it. However, sadly, whether you choose to acknowledge it or not, the world is now being held to ransom by religious fanatics who are destroying the world, as we know it, by terror, in the name of Islam. Let's take this down to a slightly smaller level. If these evil bastards were members of my family, I'd not only turn them in myself, but I'd be doing everything in my power to ensure that the whole world knew and understood that their values, beliefs and actions, were *nothing* to do with me whatsoever and that I was the one most determined to have them handed over to the police. As I said earlier...the Canadian Imams are saying exactly what I have been saying...and I realise that must upset those who seek to prove that I am anything other than what I am. Tough. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 10 Jan 10 - 07:34 AM "News just in. The controversial Islamic group which planned to march through a town where processions are held for dead British soldiers will be banned. Islam4UK said it would stage an anti-war march through Wootton Bassett in Wiltshire with members carrying empty coffins. Home Secretary Alan Johnson would outlaw the group as early as Monday. It said comments made by senior members of Islam4UK and on websites breached the Terrorism Act." Thanks be....to Allah and to every other God in Heaven. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 10 Jan 10 - 07:40 AM And in case anyone can't open that link of mine above, to this short article, here is what the Canadian Imams have said: Twenty imams have issued a "fatwa" against any Muslim who would attempt to commit an act of terrorism in Canada or the United States. Syed Soharwardy, an imam at the Al-Madinah Calgary Islamic Centre, who organized the initiative, said yesterday that any attack by foreign elements should also be considered a direct affront to the 10 million Muslims who call either Canada or the United States home. "We want Muslims around the world who would dare to commit terrorism on our soil to know that we stand together with all Canadians and Americans. "We are asking Muslims here not only to condemn terrorism but to also see these events as attacks on themselves." Imam Soharwardy said he thought of the initiative just after a Nigerian man was charged with trying to blow up a U.S. airliner on Christmas Day. At that point he began calling religious leaders here and in the United States to join his effort. Nineteen Canadian imams and one American have signed the fatwa to date. " The Koran teaches us that we have an obligation to stop violence. We live in a non-Muslim country called Canada where Muslims and others live side by side, and this is our country, too. "Our children are born here. Our future children will live here. That's why we have to oppose this violence." Since the threats against Salman Rushdie several years ago, most people think of fatwas as death threats. But in fact, the imam notes, the vast majority of fatwas are condemnations or even non-binding directives that are meant to teach fellow Muslims the proper religious response to a given situation. He said many Muslims he has spoken to say their lives have grown miserable and have suffered societal backlash because of the perceived association between violence and Islam. But since 9/11, he added, it has become imperative for Muslims to vocally condemn violence -- even though they have no personal responsibility for those acts. Muslims who live in this country should also stop fighting the battles that they left behind when they came to live here, he added. "We are Canadian now. This is where our energy should be directed." |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett From: Royston Date: 10 Jan 10 - 07:51 AM OK Liz. I now regard to you as too stupid to be worthy of discussion. Anyone disagree? However, on the point you raise about the innocent turning in the guilty, it happens all the time - Like the family of the underpants bomber Umar Farouk Abdul Muttalab. They reported their concerns to the authorities who took, errm, absolutely no notice of them at all. The autistic/aspergers chap that tried to blow up a cafe in Exeter a couple of years ago...concerns reported by his local mosque, not taken seriously again. There are plenty of press reports with testimony from the UK security services that a vast amount of their actionable intelligence includes or originates from reports by concerned Muslims. Liz you know absolutely nothing, and *everything* you say turns out be either a lie or just plain wrong. Is there no amount of evidence, no number of dismal failures that would ever persuade you to shut up, go away somewhere that you can't bother decent folk, and take some classes in rational thought? Don't start back-pedalling now "I was the first to present an example...Muslims speaking out for themselves..." when your whole point has been to portray those good folk as the excpetion to Lizzie's rule that all 2bn Muslims are to blame for what's happening. Face your shame Lizzie, try to learn something from it. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett From: Royston Date: 10 Jan 10 - 08:02 AM Muslims, through the agency of their community associations have been campaigning against fundamentalism constantly. The trouble, Liz, is that the media don't want to report it - except in extremis, like now - and people like you just don't want to hear it - until it becomes an issue with which you choose to attack Muslims Examples http://www.religioustolerance.org/islfatwa.htm http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/west_midlands/5111092.stm Try: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rls=com.microsoft%3Aen-gb%3AIE-SearchBox&q=mu for 161,000 examples. God, you're a nasty piece of work Lizzie. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett From: MGM·Lion Date: 10 Jan 10 - 08:38 AM ===OK Liz. I now regard to you as too stupid to be worthy of discussion. Anyone disagree? God, you're a nasty piece of work Lizzie. === Actually, Royston, I do not entirely agree. I have differed with Lizzie sometimes; & I think she has a tendency to overstate certain cases in a somewhat uncontrolled and hysterical fashion. But I think she is sometimes right, and it is vain & mistaken to assume that, becoz of her tendency to incontinent intemperateness in expression, everything she sez can be discounted. In this present instance, e.g., all right-thinking people agree that the malevolent element in Islamism who commit acts of terror are but a small — nay, one might even say, minute — minority, frequently condemned by their better-intentioned co-religionists: as in the recent, welcome, Canadian fatwa; but that does not mean that this minority is not a threat, or that they can be ignored or discounted: or that those, like Lizzie, who vehenently draw attention to this ongoing and unbridled threat had not best be heeded, & should not written off as merely hysterical so that any warnings they issue may be ignored, which it appears to me there is a danger of happening on this thread. 9/11, 7/7, Madrid, the murder of one of Rushdie's publishers & the recent renewed attempt on the life of the Danish cartoonist, DID ALL HAPPEN - however much the majority of Muslims, along with the rest of us, deplore that fact: & we would be unwise to imagine that, becoz some Canadian Muslim clerics deplore these acts, & becoz Lizzie is sometimes silly & hysterical [a variant of 'shooting the messenger' IMO], the perepetrators represent no threat & so can safely be discounted. Let us, please not get complacent in an extreme overreaction to Lizzie's often incontinent modes of expression. There is, I should say, a modicum of wheat to be found amongst her chaff. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett From: Ruth Archer Date: 10 Jan 10 - 08:53 AM MtheGM, I don't think anyone really discounts the real and present threat from terrorism. But the wider issues around the demonisation of the entire Muslim world have implications for the future of the UK and racial harmony. The terrorists and extremists need to be condemned. They need to be marginalised, especially by their own communities. But to lump the entire Muslim population of Britain in with the extremists and fundamentalists does enormous harm. It is divisive and unhelpful. And, rather worryingly (as I have said earlier in the thread) people who are suspicious of/feel threatened by the presence of "the other" in their midst are using isolated acts of extremism to justify their bigotry. This needs to be addressed if the multicultural society we live in is ever going to work. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 10 Jan 10 - 09:06 AM "OK Liz. I now regard to you as too stupid to be worthy of discussion. Anyone disagree?" Don't f*cking call me Liz! OK? Got it? You sanctimonious, patronizing, holier than thou prat. "The terrorists and extremists need to be condemned." And that is precisely what I and others have been doing. But now, NOW it is OK to do that because YOU have said so? "They need to be marginalised, especially by their own communities." EXACTLY what I've been saying! "But to lump the entire Muslim population of Britain in with the extremists and fundamentalists does enormous harm." And who and where was that done? I have been saying all along that if you don't love this country, then bloody well leave it. That is addressed to all of those who condem Great Britain and all she stands for, whatever their skin colour, creed or religion. READ what the Imams have finally come out and said! It is an unprecedented idea and one that should have been started on the eve of 9/11...BUT, it is has now started to roll and watch it gather pace around the world. The ONE thing that these bastards haven't counted on is their own faith, the good people from within their own faith, turning against them en masse....and that is what needs to be done, as fast as possible. Does Islam need its own Civil War? Yes, I think it does, because the evil bastards who have discredited it, hidden within it, claimed it as their own need to be removed, the evil cut out from within..and the only people who can do that is those who really believe in the message of Allah. I hope it can be done peacefully, but somehow, I doubt the bastards will allow that to happen, because I feel they would have no conscience in attacking their fellow Muslims who dared to stand up to them. I also hope, very much, that the Imams also call for the end of misogyny within all Islamic states and that equality, compassion and education is given to women as soon as it can possibly be arranged. And of course, an end to the barbaric punishments that some within Islam dared to bring into being, so very long ago. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 10 Jan 10 - 09:06 AM Yes, but remember the survey of student views I posted about on Dec 31. thread.cfm?threadid=126102#2799932 |