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Folklore: Edging a sword with a straw - why, how?
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Subject: Folklore: Edging a sword with a straw - why, how? From: Joybell Date: 16 Jan 05 - 07:22 PM In old ballads there are many references to stroking a sword with a straw. There are lots of examples. Here's just one: In Lady Diamond #Child 269 D, verse 8. "The king's taen out a broad sword And streak'd it on a strow" (Then he stabs a bonny boy with it.) Child notes in his glossary that, "Streak'd on a straw" means to stroke a sword on "a straw" to give it an edge. How would that work? And how would you do that? Note that its a quick swipe on a straw. Not a leather strap, a stone or an iron rod. Also usually the sword-wielder is nowhere near a supply of straw. Often he's in the greenwood, or someone's bedroom! (Although there would maybe have been straw in the mattress.) Did they carry around a supply of straw? The line is not about wiping it on grass. Child specifies "a straw to give it an edge"!! Any ideas? Cheers, Joy |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Edging a sword with a straw - why, how? From: Don Firth Date: 16 Jan 05 - 07:57 PM Far be it from me to say that Child might be wrong, but this was not to put an edge on the sword, it was to demonstrate how sharp the sword was. One of the little tricks of intimidation before a sword fight was to take something like a straw, blade of grass, or perhaps a silken scarf, drape it over the cutting edge of the sword, and let the adversary watch as the item cut itself in two by its own rather negligible weight. This was a bit of hyperbola, really, because any blade that sharp could nick easily when it struck a defensive bit of armor plate or a parrying blade, and a badly nicked blade might break at that point on a subsequent blow. Most embarrassing in the middle of a duel to the death. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Edging a sword with a straw - why, how? From: GUEST,Clint Keller Date: 16 Jan 05 - 08:21 PM Seems to me that to cut a straw by its own weight a sword would not olnly have to be terribly sharp but also about as thin as a razor blade. I'd think it more likely that "strow" is a form of -- or corruption of -- "strop." clint |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Edging a sword with a straw - why, how? From: Don Firth Date: 16 Jan 05 - 09:05 PM To the best of my knowledge, strops are relatively new (last three or four centuries, anyway). Swords were generally sharpened first with a grindstone, then with finer and finer stones. The smart thing to do would be to bevel the edge a bit so the cutting edge was sharp, but not that sharp. The edge might be tested with something like a piece of straw, but the idea that the straw (or whatever) would actually slice itself by its own weight was a graphically impressive, but unrealistic bit of fiction. All this assumes broadswords rather than the later rapier or the much later smallsword. A sharp edge on a broadsword was not that important, because fights with broadswords generally involved the defensive shield and/or armor. Fighting with a broadswords was more often like fighting with baseball bats. Most rapiers (circa The Three Musketeers or Cyrano de Bergerac) had cutting edges, but they were primarily thrusting weapons. The smallsword (the light, slender sword worn by gentlemen in the late eighteenth and early nineteenth centuries didn't have a cutting edge. Strictly thrusting weapon (no matter what Hollywood duels look like). I'm not just guessing about this. This comes from my life-long interest in fencing and some books on period arms and armor. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Edging a sword with a straw - why, how? From: Joybell Date: 16 Jan 05 - 10:35 PM Thanks Don, Now it makes more sense. I suppose that singers passing on that popular phrase in the ballads would not necessarily need to have known the details. The weapons all seem to be "thrust" into people after the business with the straw, but it seems to me that the idea might have become a formula to be slotted in anywhere a sharp weapon is used. The display with the straw does sound like a bit of blokey posturing. There are examples, in the ballads, of the use of: a broad sword a rapier a "rousty" rapier a brand a dagger a little sword and many, many more.(No examples of a wee pen knife so far though) Thanks again Don. Cheers, Joy |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Edging a sword with a straw - why, how? From: pavane Date: 17 Jan 05 - 06:57 AM Not sure what you mean about a 'wee pen knife' A 'little pen knife' is the weapon in at least one version of 'Two brothers' '... and felled him to the ground He's taken out his little pen knife and given him a deadly wound' from the version sung by Nic Jones There is also one with a 'nut brown sword' in a song somewhere. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Edging a sword with a straw - why, how? From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 17 Jan 05 - 08:19 AM Don Firth - you may well be right with the strop being of that age - but if the original song was older than that, I would expect that the several few centuries of 'folk tradition' intervening would have allowed the 'stropping to sharpen' concept to be seamlessly inserted into older songs - much as 'plug-ins' like the 'milk white steed' formula ... :-) or the other idea of the 'cutting of the straw' could have been do so too - Indeed if the 'carriers of the song traditions' were not much acquainted with weapon etiquette, I would expect them to not care much about correctness rather than 'making the story sound good'... |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Edging a sword with a straw - why, how? From: beardedbruce Date: 17 Jan 05 - 08:34 AM Consider: If the sword had been in storage, it may have had a coat of oil, or grease on it. Perhaps the straw was to wipe it off. If the sword had just been sharpened, the dust, (or mud if done with a "wetstone) would need to be wiped of to give a clean cut. 8-{E "Armed Nudests" |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Edging a sword with a straw - why, how? From: EBarnacle Date: 17 Jan 05 - 09:38 AM Seeing that most strops are make with horsehide, it is quite possible that the usage goes back further than the formal tool. It is likely, however that the sword was already as sharp as it needed to be. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Edging a sword with a straw - why, how? From: Don Firth Date: 17 Jan 05 - 01:20 PM A pen knife, of course, was (is) a small, sharp knife used for cutting quills (pens). Almost every literate person had one. Unless one slashed a wrist or something like that, actually killing someone with a pen knife is pretty unlikely. The "wee pen knife" is probably a corruption of "weapon knife." Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Edging a sword with a straw - why, how? From: Megan L Date: 17 Jan 05 - 02:09 PM as the baladeers used images frequently - just think of rose fidle strawberry etc - could the straw picture be something cut down in its prime? |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Edging a sword with a straw - why, how? From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 17 Jan 05 - 03:43 PM In the 1930s, a Finnish knife with a wooden handle, much cheaper than the Scout hunting knife with heavier blade, became popular as a sheath knife with us (7th-9th graders). After we sharpened it, we would test its keenness by dragging it along a blade of grass. If the blade sliced into the grass easily, we were confident the knife was sharp. It was good for gutting fish we caught because of the slim, more pointed blade. I haven't seen one of these knives for years. Perhaps their life span was short because of their lighter construction. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Edging a sword with a straw - why, how? From: Joybell Date: 17 Jan 05 - 07:53 PM (Sorry about inserting the comment about the "wee pen knife". It's a red herring I think. This weapon has it's own thread with much discussion about it. It's just that we haven't found a reference to one along with mention of straw.) Thank you for the other comments, all. I do favour Don's suggestion as making the most sense - inasmuch as you can make sense of ballad-speak. It's an image I'll rather like to call up when I sing or hear these songs from now on. It always appears at a point of high drama. Q, True-Love tells a story about taking his knife to a knife-sharpener in an Eastern European city, back in the 60s. The fearsome-looking expert did the knife-cuts-straw trick with a great flourish before handing it back. It's a powerful image. Cheers, Joy |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Edging a sword with a straw - why, how? From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 17 Jan 05 - 08:00 PM ... and thus maybe just an 'intimidation' trick? Which would go well in the balladeers rep as a great visual image? |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Don Firth - "nut brown swords"? From: Joybell Date: 17 Jan 05 - 08:09 PM The "nut-brown/brown sword" is an interesting one, pavane, isn't it. We found it too. Many references to brown swords in the ballads. Sometimes it's a "bright brown sword". There are a few theories, we understand. 1. That it refers to a bronze sword. Unlikely because bronze swords haven't been used since the bronze age. 2. That acid was used as a finish. The blade was then polished to a shiny brown. Don can you help with this one? Cheers, Joy |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Edging a sword with a straw - why, how? From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 17 Jan 05 - 08:40 PM That "weapon knife" business is fanciful modern nonsense, I'm afraid. "Joybell" mentioned it because there was a recent discussion on that very subject, most of it completely pointless because based on a fundamental misunderstanding of ballad terminology (They don't have to be realistic!) |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Edging a sword with a straw - why, how? From: GUEST,Clint Keller Date: 17 Jan 05 - 09:07 PM Well, I be dogged. Heard about shaving hair off your arm (or face), cutting hanging rope, tatami mats, strips of paper hanging from a thread by a paper clip, and other fun stuff, but I never heard till now of testing an edge on a straw. Live & learn. Cutting soft wood cleanly across the grain is a pretty good test: soft wood because it's easy to crush the fibers rather than slice them unless your blade's very sharp. But I suppose flourishing your sword & sharpening a pencil isn't very dramatic. clint |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Edging a sword with a straw - why, how? From: Don Firth Date: 17 Jan 05 - 09:15 PM I got the "weapon knife" from Dr. David C. Fowler, a ballad scholar who taught a course in "The Popular Ballad" at the University of Washington. I can't recall what they were offhand, but he had a couple of fairly authoritative sources for that (which is to say, he didn't make it up), so I don't think it's "fanciful modern nonsense." "Nut brown" or "brown sword" is one that throws me. I don't recall ever hearing it, and I haven't found anything in the arms and armor books to give me a clue, but I'll keep looking. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Edging a sword with a straw - why, how? From: GUEST,Clint Keller Date: 17 Jan 05 - 09:32 PM You can buy gun blueing and browning solutions -- oxidizing solutions -- for refinishing firearms. I've heard of the old-timers finishing muzzle-loaders by painting them with vinegar and wire-brushing off the rust, then oiling to get a uniform dark brown. You need to do something similar to bring out the pattern on pattern-welded blades. They tell me the old mountain men didn't think a knife was any good until it was uniformly tarnished. A blade that was cared for but not polished back in the old pre-stainless steel days would be some shade of brown, black or blue. clint |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Edging a sword with a straw - why, how? From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 17 Jan 05 - 10:23 PM The Bowie knife (Arkansas toothpick) may be 'modern' (19th c.), but it is not nonsense. Perhaps invented by James Black, and made in abundance by Sheffield cutlers, it was wielded in many contests. During the Mexican War, a blade 13-15 inches in length was used and it remained popular with Southern soldiers during the early part of the US Civil War- see Smithsonian Collection: Bowie Knife . Blades in the early 19th c. were quite long but a shorter, wider and thicker blade became popular later. A type once favored by sailors, banned from carrying firearms in most ports, some 16 inches long overall, is still made by Stanley in England. A modern adaptation, the KA-BAR, a shorter knife, is popular with U. S. Marines (unofficial??). Neither is the flick-blade knife (illegal here but not unknown) and other blades that were used by gang members. Unfortunately the gun seems to be the current weapon of choice. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Edging a sword with a straw - why, how? From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 17 Jan 05 - 10:24 PM Please name those authoritative sources, Don! I'm always happy to be proved wrong, but I do want evidence; even a single example of the use of the term "weapon knife" in a ballad would be a start; unless we're expected to believe (by people who weren't there, it seems, but still know better) that all those "wee pen knives" were mis-hearings of what the singers actually sang. Until then, I'm going to remain stubbornly convinced that the suggestion is nonsense. See last November's thread Wee pen knife. You didn't post to it at the time. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Edging a sword with a straw - why, how? From: Shanghaiceltic Date: 17 Jan 05 - 10:55 PM Testing swords on straw was a common method of demonstrating the sharpeness of a weapon, as straw is very light, if the blade were dull it would bend the straw rather than cut it. The tempered edge of a weapon was very hard but good swordsmiths would fashion a sword in layers with a core of softer steel/iron at the center of the weapon. The softer steel absorbs some of the impact on a cut preventing the weapon from snapping in two, which it would do if only made of a hard steel. Swords were expensive weapons, and ones made by noteable swordsmiths would be expensive indeed. The edges were polished with stones of varying hardness and roughness until the edge was polished and sharp. There are many beautiful examples of the swordsmiths work on exhibition in the Armouries Musuem in Leeds, Tower of London and in many of the UK's castles. A bent sword could be straightend by a good smith. Cheaper edged weapons were often just sharpened on a grindstone with no particular regards to finish. In Japan a new sword was often tested on a dummy made of wetted straw tied around a bamboo pole, a makiwara it was called. Varius cuts would be made as the makiwara had the consistancy of a human body. This art of cutting a makiwara was called tameshigiri and tested the sword owners skills in both drawing and cutting cleanly. I would think that much the same procedures would be adopted by other swordsman in other country in order to both imporve the strength and skill in order to stay alive in a fight. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Edging a sword with a straw - why, how? From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 18 Jan 05 - 02:10 AM The Bowie knife seems to bear a remarkable similarity in blade shape to the ancient 'seaxe'.... :-) |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Edging a sword with a straw - why, how? From: GUEST,Clint Keller Date: 18 Jan 05 - 04:32 PM Yes. I once found a picture of an ancient english sax/seax/seaxe that fit almost exactly over a 19th century English Bowie when superimposed. The 'Beagnoth' sax, I think. Most Bowies had a bit more curve to the edge than a sax, thus giving a higher point, and the clip -- the part on the back of the blade that slopes down to the primary edge -- is sharpened. There's a good chance that James Bowie's own knife didn't look much like a Bowie knife, but that's another story. clint |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Edging a sword with a straw - why, how? From: Joybell Date: 18 Jan 05 - 06:20 PM Please! Please make the "weapon knife" go away! True-Love makes the comment (as a linguist) that "weapon knife" is a highly improbable construction. (sentencewise that is). He did hear the theory about it back in the 60s, but makes the point that it wasn't suggested by a linguist. You just don't find examples of the words used that way. (Neither in ballads - as Malcolm points out, nor in other written sources). Thank you every one for all the input. Clint - True-Love did mention the blueing of guns. We wondered if that was the connection. Such an interesting thread this has turned out to be. So glad I came here. Cheers, Joy |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Edging a sword with a straw - why, how? From: Don Firth Date: 18 Jan 05 - 06:50 PM Malcolm, I took the class in 1957 or 58 and if I even still have my class notes, they're filed away somewhere. I can't recall now who Prof. Fowler was quoting, but I believe it was someone like Evelyn Kendrick Wells, William J. Entwistle, or MacEdward Leach. Whoever it might have been was venturing an opinion, and Prof. Fowler allowed as how it sounded reasonable to him. I don't know of an instance of "weapon knife" in a ballad text, but I don't find that particularly significant. In the absence of definitive evidence one way or the other, any opinion is, of course, just that—only a matter of speculation. I merely put it forth as a reasonable possibility. I am not emotionally invested in the matter, and should definitive evidence eventually be found, then that would solve the question. In the Grand Scheme of the Cosmos, I am content to accept a measure of uncertainty in many things. On the matter of "brown sword," the Bibliomania web site came up with this:— Brown Bill A kind of halbert used by English foot-soldiers before muskets were employed. We find in the mediæval ballads the expressions, "brown brand," "brown sword," "brown blade," etc. Sometimes the word rusty is substituted for brown, as in Chaucer: "And in his side he had a rousty blade"; which, being the god Mars, cannot mean a bad one. Keeping the weapons bright is a modern fashion; our forefathers preferred the honour of blood stains. Some say thè weapons were varnished with a brown varnish to prevent rust, and some affirm that one Brown was a famous maker of these instruments, and that Brown Bill is a phrase similar to Armstrong gun and Colt's revolver. (See above.)Another source said:— 'Metal free' or 'metal clear' refers to the difference between naturally occurring free iron and iron refined from ore ('metal brown') - or to the iron derived from different ores. Pyrites, hematite and another ironstone ore require different extraction processes and there were very rare occurrences of free iron. The results of working these ores 500 years ago were not unlike the differences between cast iron, wrought iron and common steel now.Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Edging a sword with a straw - why, how? From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 18 Jan 05 - 07:29 PM Thanks, Don. That places the suggestion a bit further back and in more informed hands than the other thread had revealed, so my comment "fanciful modern nonsense" should now be disregarded. "Fanciful" stands, though, until someone comes up with references we can check up on. If you do ever happen to unearth those class notes, please do let us know. There must be an awful lot of useful stuff like that out there, perhaps from sources that never made it into print. It's high time I read Fowler's Literary History of the Popular Ballad. A visit to the library tomorrow is in order, I think. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Edging a sword with a straw - why, how? From: Joybell Date: 18 Jan 05 - 08:30 PM *sigh* How great that must be. "a visit to the library." our nearest useful library is many days journey away. Thanks Don, from me too. I'll be interested in anything you turn up too. The matter of the "sword and straw" trick is the one that is the more interesting, I think. It is a wonderful image. I repeat my thankyou to you for it. Cheers, Joy |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Edging a sword with a straw - why, how? From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 18 Jan 05 - 09:06 PM I've always stayed close to my old university library (Sheffield), though I've paid through the nose in rent for that in recent years. If you need things looked up occasionally, Joybell, PM me. If I have access to the material, I'm always happy to help if circumstances allow. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Edging a sword with a straw - why, how? From: GUEST,Clint Keller Date: 19 Jan 05 - 01:48 AM "Good swords were very expensive. They did not rust, but went dark and stayed sharp." Don't know who said that, but they rusted if they weren't cared for. You can see pictures in lots of history & archaeology books of swords with blades rusted partly or entirely away. And no blade will stay sharp if you use it, or don't care for it properly. But a sword won't rust if sunk in a well or a river and left; it's the alternate wetting and drying that rusts iron. I've got a knife in the kitchen now with the blade tarnished brown. Depends on the chemistry of the steel & of whatever tarnished it. It's a slick blade -- polished before it was brown -- and has a brown shine that might look like varnish. "Weapon knife" does sound awkward. Weapon gun? Weapon axe? The words don't swing much. However I've heard of war swords, and fighting knives, though that's a modern term I believe, and a little odd; sounds like "pugnacious blades." I've got my grandfather's sticking knife, and some carving and whittling knives. Hunting knife, skinning knife, paring knife, mostly there's an "-ing" but there's butcher knife, and a neck knife is a small knife you carry on a cord round your neck. Interesting how words hook together. Is this what linguistics deals with? clint |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Edging a sword with a straw - why, how? From: Steve Parkes Date: 19 Jan 05 - 04:03 AM Bit of techie info ... when you sharpen a blade with a stone or a steel, you produce a burr -- little "filings" that don't completely detach from the metal. You can feel these if you rub a thumb or finger along the edge, like you see in movies -- but take care to move away from the edge, otherwise you'll cut yourself and get nasty steel splinters in your skin. When you strop the blade with soething soft but tough, like leather, you remove the burr without dulling the edge. Pattern-welded blades, mentioned by Clint Keller above, were made in the days before the composition of steel could be well-controlled. Steel has a carbon content that makes it hard and sharpenable, unlike soft iron which has very little carbon, and unlike cast-iron which has too much carbon. (Confusing, isn't it?) You get the excess carbon out of pig iron by heating it red-hot then beating it with a hammer, which forces out the carbon and other undesirable stuff; if your fire is just right it will burn it off. In Saxon days (for example), it was difficult to produce iron or steel to order: it was pot-luck what you ended up with. So when you'd got enough of each, you'd weld alternate strips of iron & steel together (get them red-hot then hammer them till they fused together); your composite strips could be woven or plaited if desired with others, giving the pattern that appeared on the surface after cleaning & etching. The composite combined the springy hardness of the steel with the toughness and break-resistance of the soft iron. Just like modern composite materials. Steve |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Edging a sword with a straw - why, h From: GUEST,petr Date: 19 Jan 05 - 04:34 PM sword making is a fascinating art, some bbc history program had a fellow making one out of varying strips as described above - i believe that Japanese Katana was one of the few swords in the world that would be extremely strong and yet sharpened that it could cut a sheet of paper slid down on it (edge to edge). - which wasnt the case (supposedly) with European or other swords. the Japanese sword was made by alternately heating and making a cut halfway and folding the sword many times, just 10 times will give you a 1024 layers. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Edging a sword with a straw - why, how? From: George Seto - af221@chebucto.ns.ca Date: 19 Jan 05 - 04:46 PM Seems to me I remember a show from Quirks and Quarks back 10 or more years ago where they tested some old "rhyme"? about sword making that involved feeding a goose with the blade (in pieces) to make a better sword? It also involved forging and folding the blade numerous times. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Edging a sword with a straw - why, how? From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 19 Jan 05 - 06:06 PM Putting scraps of metal thru an animals digestive tract would have a mild effect on the surface of the metal - welding those pieces back together would mean the resultant weapon would have slightly different properties. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Edging a sword with a straw - why, how? From: Shanghaiceltic Date: 19 Jan 05 - 07:28 PM I went to see a Japanese sword smith at work when I lived in Japan. As Guest Petr said it is flded many time. A plate of iron with a tang is covered with a layer of carbonised wood and other ingrediants (each sword maker has his own secret mix). The plate is then heated in a small forge, it is then taken out and spilt lengthwise down the middle and hammered over. The carbon goes into the iron. Back into the furnace and then heated and split again, sometimes the splitting is done length wise sometimes across. The carbon gets driven into the iron to form steel layers. As the process goes on the sword bar is drawn out and gradually shaped. the final stage of forgeing is to cover the sword with a layer of clay mixed with other ingrediants. Where the cutting edge is going to be it is scraped off to expose the edge. Often the smith will make a particular pattern which is destinctive to his work. The sword is again returned to the forge, the smith watches and judges the timing carefully. It goes into the forge with what will be the cutting edge exposed to the hot coals. Once he has judged the time (again their trade secret)it is quickly taken out and quenched. This is what produces the hardened tempered edge. Some Japanese sword smiths pass the sword onto a polisher, some do it themselves, but the process starts with rough blocks of stone and graudalu works down to very fine stones. The polishing reveals the grain of the metal and where the smith covered and exposed the cutting edge the hamon is revealed. Experts can look at the hamon's pattern and the curve of the blade (this is called it's sori) and name the area and smithy where it was made. Once the polishing is doen it's tang is often engraved with the smiths name. The last stage is the fitting of the swords with the destinctive bound handle (which is held by either one or two bamboo pegs) the tsuba (hand guard) and a scabbard (saya) is then made to complete the sword. Japanese swords attract high prices now, even the standard WWII shingunto. A sword can be repolished and sharpended thoughout its life. The blade is never touched woth bare fingers or if it is then it is cleaned with soft tissue or cloth and a smear of clove oil is put back on. There are only about 5 very good (termed National Living Treasures) smiths left in Japan today. Most of the modern day katana you see in shops are cast alloy blades and the balance and quality is often poor. My kendo teacher when I lived in Japan managed to break one of these during a demonstration of sword drawing ( termed Iaido) just by doing a very fast draw. The peg (mekugi) broke and the sword parted company with the handle. He blamed himself for using a poor quality blade and for not checking the mekugi was sound. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Edging a sword with a straw - why, how? From: Joybell Date: 19 Jan 05 - 07:35 PM Who ever thought I'd be learining all this wonderful stuff about weapons. Thank you so much for all this. Malcolm, That's so good of you. Thank you. I know how busy you are. Clint, Yes we thought about "weapon gun" and the like. They don't sound very likely. True-Love, who was raised in the Midwest, talks about the "spit and whittle" club. Old timers who sat on seats outside the courthouse in the town square and silently whittled (and spat.) He said every small town had them. We visited his home town 10 years ago and they were nowhere to be seen. Where did they go I wonder? Some seeds only germinate after they have passed through a birds digestive tract, but blades! How awful for the poor goose. Cheers, Joy |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Edging a sword with a straw - why, how? From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 19 Jan 05 - 09:09 PM By going through junkshops, I have collected a few good knives, higher in carbon, mottled in color, and gave away all of the "stainless," hard steel knives. I sharpen with stones, but once the edge is finished, a steel generally is sufficient. These knives need frequent honing and should never be left wet. More trouble, but they make a fine, even cut. New, a good knife runs $100 and up. On a university trip, we went to the quarry where Arkansas novaculite oilstones come from. Novaculite is pure quartz, very fine, without grain except to an electron microscope, evenly milk-white in color and uniformly hard throughout. They are not cheap. A black stone is softer, formerly(?) used by jewelers and surgeons to put the 'final edge.' It feels much smoother than any other substance I have encountered. The Japanese use a 'waterstone,' in which the microscopic quartz grains are in a clay matrix. These have to be ground flat periodically. Waterstones also are generally available in America and some people prefer them. Curious about Arkansas Novaculite prices now, I checked and found a 12'x3"x1" hard stone with varied color for $80; none of the milkwhite stones. A black stone, extra fine, $100. 'Washita' stones are softer and cheaper. How about corn shucks? I know a man who says he removes the 'burr' after sharpening with dry corn shucks. It seems that small crystals form in the shucks and act abrasively. Not quite a 'straw,' but....! |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Edging a sword with a straw - why, how? From: mack/misophist Date: 20 Jan 05 - 12:17 AM Pointless technical information about blades: Damascus blades (which would have been well known in northern legends. cf. Varangian Guard) and Japanese blades were made in much the same way. A differential tempering method allowed the edge to be made of the hardest steel possible while the body was of a softer, more flexible composition. As long as the edge hit another piece of metal square on, it might cut it without shattering. A glancing blow would ruin it. During WW II, the Japanese army used the Mountain Hag Cutter sword to cut the barrel off a Nambu Light Machine Gun. The sword is still here. I've seen it. Note: The Japanese tried making swords out of blocks of softer and harder steels welded in a sandwich style structure. They tended to come apart. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Edging a sword with a straw - why, how? From: GUEST,Clint Keller Date: 20 Jan 05 - 12:52 AM "Note: The Japanese tried making swords out of blocks of softer and harder steels welded in a sandwich style structure. They tended to come apart." They won't come apart if the smith can hammer weld, and this is what all weldiing was until acetylene torches came along. You don't have to be a swordmaker, just a good country blacksmith. I have a couple of Japanese knives made that way, and some Scandanavian ones & they work just fine. The Japanese call this construction 'san mai:' hard but brittle steel sandwiched between soft but tough steel. Sharpening exposes the hard steel core to provide the edge and the tough outside layers support the core. 'Differential tempering' and 'damascus' are different thiings. Damascus is a patterned steel. either pattern-welded or something like Wootz steel, and differential tempering refers to heat-treatiing: tempering the edge of a blade harder than the back. The tempering mehod using clay described by Shanghaiceltic is one way of doing this. You could differentially temper damascus steel if you wanted to, but it'd be redundant. clint |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Edging a sword with a straw - why, how? From: Steve Parkes Date: 20 Jan 05 - 03:41 AM The metallurgy of iron and steel is enormously complex, involving chemical compounds with carbon and other metals, crystal structure and grain structure, and how these differ with temperature. There are a number of websites that cover it all, but I'm not going to recommend any -- if you're interested, you'll have to find one that explains at a level you can follow, depending on your knowledge of chemistry. It's mind-boggling to think of the time and patience needed to develop and master the knowledge and skills of iron working in ages before the mechansims were understood. It's no wonder smiths were thought to be magical! Steve |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Edging a sword with a straw - why, how? From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 21 Jan 05 - 03:40 AM Joybell, Try "The old woman who lived in the Wood", She had a pen knife lang and sharp, to the detriment of the baby's health. Don T. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Edging a sword with a straw - why, how? From: Joybell Date: 21 Jan 05 - 06:27 PM "....stuck the knife in the baby's head...." cruel mother! Don, sometimes it's six feet long and all. The Clancys told it that way. The knife isn't "stroked on a straw" though. They don't seem to do the act with the straw on knives - in the ballads. That trick seems to be used on swords of various types. Lots of examples of it being done outside of the ballads after sharpening knives or razors. I wouldn't be surprised if it turns up in a ballad. Just haven't found it yet. Cheers, Joy |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Edging a sword with a straw - why, h From: Rapparee Date: 21 Jan 05 - 07:16 PM Here's some of my thoughts. I've learned these things making muzzle loading firearms, as well as other places. Steel or iron can be both blued and browned -- I've done both. Browning is the oldest technique. The metal can also be left "in the white" or, more properly, "in the silver" -- you polish it and leave it alone. Naturally, you do have to oil it! Blueing and browning were done to create rust on the surface, controlled rusting, and rusting of a a small, small grain. Knives were also both blued and browned, and I see no reason why swords wouldn't be. Fighting against someone with a darkened blade would be disconcerting, especially during periods of low light. Even at bright noon it would be difficult. I have also experimented with coloring metal using ammonium chloride (sal ammoniac), but with little success. One thing I'd like to try someday is coloring metal by boiling it with logwood. I understand that some of the 19th C. revolvers were done that way. Parkerizing is another, but 20th C., way to darken metal. I have a sheath knife my brother made which has a damascus blade. My other brother sharpened it. It will shave the hair on the hair on the back of my hand off. Ted now starts knives on a diamond hone and finishes on hard Arkansas stone, but in the past he's used straight Arkansas, moving from coarse to black. After he finishes on the stones he uses a strop, one with a canvas side and a leather side, to remove the "wire edge" the stones leave. He has done this for scalpels, winning a bet with a local surgeon that he could sharpen a scalpel by hand at least as sharp as a disposable one came from the manufacturer. Ted has done the "paper on the edge of the knife" trick, but admits that it is just that -- any weapon so sharpened and used in a fight would quickly be rendered dull. |
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