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BS: Why is the UK in a mess part 2
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Subject: Why is the UK in a mess part 2 From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 07 Feb 02 - 11:20 AM Here is part 2 of this thread - (and here is part 1) Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: John from Hull Date: 06-Feb-02 - 11:46 PM There are many problems in the Uk right now, (high crime rates, soaring teenage pregnancy, decline in standards of all public services, etc), so whilst litter in the street is a problem it is certainly not the main one.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post - Top - Forum Home - Translate -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: GUEST,Guest, Colonist, IHeartLimeys Date: 07-Feb-02 - 12:02 AM Dear All: I'm sorry to hear the UK is in such a mess. Why not simply take a vacation and not get all tense about it? I always heard your islands were simply brim full of untapped potential. Rousing chorus of Neddy Seagoon singing "There'll always be an England, and England shall be free, there'll always be an England......" I heart limeys
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post - Top - Forum Home - Translate -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: Ferret Date: 07-Feb-02 - 12:29 AM The Tax on tobacco and alcohol comes to more than the health budget, and if you put all the unemployed in the armed forces then you have to up the defence budget so you have to pay more Tax's (if you pay them just the same as there benefit you still have to pay for training and equipment). As for taking up all opportunities some people are not able to do so for many reasons such as low IQ est. As for work for benefit it is much simpler to run if you put them all in camps, and so they can not sneak off and get out of doing work, put them in a uniform (striped cloths say) dose this sound familiar. I live on benefit I get just £106 per week I am a single parent with a young daughter. My ex-wife & sister in law are mentally ill with agoraphobia, claustrophobia, panic attacks, anxiety, and clinical depression, (it run in there family and I did not know at the time) and I am there sole carer for them. I start my day at 7.30 in the morning get my daughter up and ready for school take her to school for 8.30. Go get my ex-wife & sister in law up and do there breakfast's (they live separately from each other and me) make shore that they take there medication, then take them to there groups or appointments sort out any problems (and there are many) do the washing help them do there house work, make dinner for them. Then go and fetch my daughter bring her home and take ex-wife & sister in law home do tea for my daughter make my dinner do the washing-up do my house work, put my daughter to bed then I have to do all the paper work for a club I run, (that has made about £20,000 for the Cornish air ambulance) then check my e-mail's and what replies need to be dun. Have a look at the Mudcat for about 1/2 an hour then go to bed about 4am and get up 3-4 hour later. And start again. Saturday's I start at 9am. My daughter has rest bite care, and I have my ex-wife & sister in law for the day. Sunday starts at 11am breakfast then get the dinner on go and get my ex-wife & sister law for dinner then take them back spend the rest of the day with my daughter. No holidays. I don't know how much it will cost the state if I did not do all this and got a job but I bet it's alot more than I get. It's a pity I do not work, I can use the rest. And if you had to have a license to have kids the may I mention with only one hand from berth you will probably not get one. You cannot in a free country tell people whether or not to have children. Learn your history. If you do not learn from history's mistakes you are destine to repeat them. All the best ferret. PS it 05.00hr here now
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post - Top - Forum Home - Translate -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: Ferret Date: 07-Feb-02 - 12:35 AM Hi Kat long time no here hope your well and doing fine all the best ferret
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post - Top - Forum Home - Translate -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: GUEST,swirlygirl Date: 07-Feb-02 - 08:00 AM Yeah ferret i know it's hard for some people, but it's for people who do act as carers and who do have lives like yours that I'm arguing FOR, not against, so please don't have ago at me. You're doing a worthwhile thing and not being paid enough for it, and I'm sorry, if there was licensing to have kids and I was told I couldn't under fair licensing laws then I'd have to accept it. It's not everything you know. If you can't you can't. Just like I don't agree with IVF on the NHS either. It's not a necessary treatment in my book. I'm already told I can't claim disability allowances (which I wouldn't even if I could cos I don't need it) and I accept that. The money in the system should be going to help the people who need it. Some of the money in the system obviously goes to respite care for your daughter and that's a good thing. But I genuinely think that just GIVING certain people extra money is not the way forward. It should be put into programmes to help them move on and have a better quality of life, even if this has to be done forever because that's what having a welfare state is all about. Providing for those who NEED it, and giving them what they need, not just shelling out the money and then forgetting about them. And may I add that I don't particularly see why I couldn't bring up a child as I'm prepared to make all sacrifices necessary for its wellbeing. That's what I meant about licensing...mentally ready...I can do 99% of tasks that everyone else can do including having a faster typing speed than most people I know (EJ will vouch for this). Please never throw any disability back into anyone's face because if you're looking for any sympathy and help that's not the way forward, dissing someone else. I don't need anyone's help to do things on a daily basis. Obviously learning guitar is out but I am learning melodeon. There would be nothing I couldn't do from my experience of caring for family member's children so far that would prevent me from having proper control over any children I may have. And never once have any of them, being so used to me, ever used it in an argument against me, because they've been brought up to know better... :) xxx
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post - Top - Forum Home - Translate -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: GUEST,swirlygirl Date: 07-Feb-02 - 08:02 AM You know it's kind of funny how everyone who's dissing me on here for being "right wing" (hey I voted Scottish Socialist at the last elections) and other stuff and not prepared to stick up for the disadvantaged is quite prepared to throw my disadvantage back at me... Bit of a hypocrisy there methinks... :) xxx
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post - Top - Forum Home - Translate -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: GUEST,swirlygirl Date: 07-Feb-02 - 08:13 AM And another thing...as I'm training to be an archivist I think I might know a bit about history. The idea you're talking about is to learn and move on from your mistakes. That doesn't mean to scrap your ideas all together. It's all about change and review, and if you'd carefully read my last post about it you'd have read how I don't think it's feasible...go learn to read...and spell... :) xxx
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post - Top - Forum Home - Translate -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: GUEST,swirlygirl Date: 07-Feb-02 - 08:21 AM Oh and Kendall...you didn't get extra allowance because your dad was "incapacitated" then. It was money given to you because of your situation, not to your dad as he wasn't living with you. I'm not objecting to the money given to the single parent struggling family due to circumstance. You can't predict sometimes how family life will turn out and that's what welfare is there to cope with. But I still think there should be better provision to allow people to get back on the horse after situations like that. It can only be beneficial to the country as a whole. But the answer to alcoholism is not giving extra money to the person to fund that addiction. It's to put the money into schemes to help them kick it and get them back into society. This is where governments fall down because they don't want to take responsibility for people who need help. They just want to give them money and palm them off... Now do you see where I'm coming from? :) xxx
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post - Top - Forum Home - Translate -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 07-Feb-02 - 08:28 AM All focussing on the symptoms. It's true enough, the nasty stuff that goes on at the bottom matters, and needs attention, and that can't wait until the system is sorted out that gives rise to it. But it's important to try to stand back and see where it is those kind of things happen, and where it is they don't, and to try to identify the causes, and imagine the kind of changes that might make it better. And that isn't just about money either. It's about the kinds of things we value and the kinds of things we reward and the kinds of things we just don't take any notice of. And I'm with Morticia on suggesting that there are far far more people who don't get the help they deserve and need. compared with those who get help they don't deserve and don't need. But it sometime seems that there's a lot more attention paid to the latter, even when the effect of this is in fact to make things harder for the former. (Extra hurdles to get over, extra forms to fill in...)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post - Top - Forum Home - Translate -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: kendall Date: 07-Feb-02 - 08:50 AM Peg is 100% right. I also was struck by the amount of trash in the streets of London. Even here in my little city I'm seeing more and more graffiti on buildings and highway supports. It is the first sign of urban decay. Sure, they are symptoms of a deeper problem; so, let's discuss the real problem.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post - Top - Forum Home - Translate -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: GUEST,swirlygirl Date: 07-Feb-02 - 08:58 AM Disposable society...that's what we've created... :) xxx
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post - Top - Forum Home - Translate -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: GUEST,swirlygirl Date: 07-Feb-02 - 08:58 AM Disposable society...that's what we've created... :) xxx
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post - Top - Forum Home - Translate -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: GUEST,swirlygirl Date: 07-Feb-02 - 09:09 AM But again, when you have people living on benefits and no help to get them out of that cycle then they don't own anything and nothing's theirs so they don't regard anything around them as precious. Why shouldn't you thrwo trash out of your window if it's not your garden it's being thrown into and the council come to clean it? And no one seems to be responsible for their actions anymore because some PC human rights person will find some mitigating circumstance that illustrates how the person has had a hard life, or whatever. We do need to start being a bit tougher on people... I think...now that's only my opinion...nothing to start a war over... I also think that part of the problem is that no one knows anyone anymore. When I was growing up if I'd been seen littering or doing anything bad by anyone my mum knew, they'd have told her, so I was too scared to do anything bad! But we're not allowed to make children afraid in any way anymore. Like, you're not allowed to tell them about the bogey man or anything, so we have a generation growing up who think there's very little to fear. Obviously (cos I realise now that I have to state the obvious here) that doesn't apply to everyone, but i think it does to quite a lot of kids/teenagers nowadays, some members of my own family included....take drugs for example...won't happen to me will it?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post - Top - Forum Home - Translate -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: GUEST,PaulM Date: 07-Feb-02 - 09:35 AM swirlygirl, I'm very sorry if I've seemed to bully you in this thread. That was never my intention. Yesterday, was a bad day, and I took things out on you. I apologise. Paul
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post - Top - Forum Home - Translate -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: GUEST,swirlygirl Date: 07-Feb-02 - 09:51 AM S'ok...I'm tough really...we all have to take it out on someone, but next time can you make it someone you know??!!! ...sniff...sniff... :) xxx
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post - Top - Forum Home - Translate -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: GUEST,PaulM Date: 07-Feb-02 - 09:56 AM I'll try... A very sorry Paul who doesn't really, like hurting anyone, ever
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post - Top - Forum Home - Translate -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: Peg Date: 07-Feb-02 - 10:44 AM I think things like high crime rates could be said to be very much connected to the large amounts of litter...again, it comes down to human beings having no respect for anyone else or anything else beyond what is in their own backyards or wallets...I honestly don't think you can oversimplify this. If people think for two seconds before tossing their plastic water bottle on the ground, they will think two seconds before cutting someone off in traffic, screaming at someone who jumps the queue, ignoring the homeless person who needs change or the elderly woman who needs help crossing the street. Lack of empathy for others seems to me to be at the heart of criminal activity and violence.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post - Top - Forum Home - Translate -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: GUEST,swirlygirl Date: 07-Feb-02 - 10:54 AM I'm with ya on the litter there Peg. Was drummed into me my whole life "put it in your pocket and take it home if you can't find a bin". I've been known to stop people in the street and ask them why they dropped whatever they dropped. But it's because we're becoming a culture of immediacy. We want everything now and we don't care who we have to stamp on or con or whatever to get it. :) xxx
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post - Top - Forum Home - Translate -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 07-Feb-02 - 11:17 AM This thread is getting a bit long to load for people with slow loading computers, but it still seems to be chugging alongt at a fair rate - so I'm starting a new one, and putting the last few posts into the opening thread to make it easier for people to catch up. See next post for link. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in a mess part 2 From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 07 Feb 02 - 11:25 AM And here is a post tha slipped in under the lines, which otherwise might be overlooked.:
Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: Tone d' F Date: 07-Feb-02 - 11:20 AM Swirlygirl, the problem with getting tougher as we saw when our reveered government when it stopped people under 18 claiming benefit, after the age of 16 their parent could not claim for them. The only way this could be circumvented was for the parent to throw the kid out and write saying they would have nothing to do with them. The end result was a massive rise in crime. It even took them six years to link the two. I suffer from what they think may be unstable angina, I have arthritis in both legs, spine and hands, my 5th lumbar vertebrea is crumbling, I have meneires disease and If I don't use a CPAP machine at night I stop breathing 4 to 5 times a night. I have had three heart attacks and when at my worst cannot walk across my kitchen. Due to the new criterea I am not eligable for DLA because I do not qualify I am expected to work. So no toughening up is not the idea, getting it right would be better. I was taken to hospital at 10:30 last week, after being sorted out in the resus unit I was put in a corridor for 6hrs whilst test etc. were sorted, there were 16 other people in the corridor of A&E, at least I wasn't alone. This A&E is to be closed due to lack of money, bad management and bad planning, our local MP even believes it's reasonable, he lives near the next hospital along the coast which is keeping it's A&E, whilst another is up in arms as he would lose the use of A&E (both ae Tory). The system does not work for the politicians who run the country why do you expect it to work for the populace |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in a mess part 2 From: Tone d' F Date: 07 Feb 02 - 11:26 AM Swirlygirl, the problem with getting tougher as we saw when our reveered government when it stopped people under 18 claiming benefit, after the age of 16 their parent could not claim for them. The only way this could be circumvented was for the parent to throw the kid out and write saying they would have nothing to do with them. The end result was a massive rise in crime. It even took them six years to link the two. I suffer from what they think may be unstable angina, I have arthritis in both legs, spine and hands, my 5th lumbar vertebrea is crumbling, I have meneires disease and If I don't use a CPAP machine at night I stop breathing 4 to 5 times a night. I have had three heart attacks and when at my worst cannot walk across my kitchen. Due to the new criterea I am not eligable for DLA because I do not qualify I am expected to work. So no toughening up is not the idea, getting it right would be better. I was taken to hospital at 10:30 last week, after being sorted out in the resus unit I was put in a corridor for 6hrs whilst test etc. were sorted, there were 16 other people in the corridor of A&E, at least I wasn't alone. This A&E is to be closed due to lack of money, bad management and bad planning, our local MP even believes it's reasonable, he lives near the next hospital along the coast which is keeping it's A&E, whilst another is up in arms as he would lose the use of A&E (both are Tory). The system does not work for the politicians who run the country why do you expect it to work for the populace Bring back Guy Fawkes the last man to enter parliament with honest intent, the sort of reform we need |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in a mess part 2 From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 07 Feb 02 - 11:44 AM "Why shouldn't you throw trash out of your window if it's not your garden it's being thrown into and the council come to clean it?" (swirly girl) - surely it's not about legal ownership as such, it's a feeling that it is yours, which is slightly different.
I don't drop rubbish in the street, because I feel it is my street as much as anybody else's. A lot of people do, and maybe that's a sign that they feel that the only things that belong to them are the things which they legally own.
And that includes people who are wealthy just as much as people who are poor - it's why rich companies are happy to mess up the environment, all the way down to MacDonalds not giving a damn about their cartons being scattered all over the pace outside their shops.
It's about seeing the world around you as something where you have a part to play, as against thinking that it's nothing to do with you ("there's no sych thing as society"). It's an attitude that gives life, and the opposite of it is a poison, and I think it's a poison that spreads down from the top. There's a proverb that fish rot from the head down - I don't know if it's true of fish, but I think it's true of society.
And that other thing you said, swirlygirl: "we have a generation growing up who think there's very little to fear." In a real sense I think the reverse is true. We've a generation growing up that is scared of everything. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in a mess part 2 From: Murray MacLeod Date: 07 Feb 02 - 12:08 PM Kevin, if my irony sensor is functioning correctly, which it usually does, I don't think Swirly was actually advocating the practice of throwing litter out of windows. Murray |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in a mess part 2 From: Ringer Date: 07 Feb 02 - 12:33 PM In a mess? Pouff. Some of us remember Winter 78/79. McGrath: when you say "In a real sense I think the reverse is true." what do you mean? Do you mean it is true, or did you mean to say "In one sense..."? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in a mess part 2 From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 07 Feb 02 - 01:38 PM "In a real sense" and "in one sense" both mean the same thing, at least that's how I understand the language to work."
Yes, I remember the winter of 78-79. For a few weeks the streets were as messed up as they later became all the year round, when the services had been cut to ribbons to line the pockets of the sharks who'd got the contracts to clean the streets and then sacked the people who were needed to do the job.
And Murray - I don't think it needed an irony detector to understand that swirlygirl wasn't recommending throwing rubbish in the street. She was however touching on one reason why it is said to happen.
The assumption, which I think is a dangerous fallacy, is that if something is not "mine" it is "theirs" - as opposed to the realisation that the best way to live in the world is to accept it and to value it as being "ours". |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in a mess part 2 From: swirlygirl Date: 07 Feb 02 - 01:52 PM Well McGrath you see, I think in this world if you don't pay for anything then what's the point in looking after it? (that's not my view but it's a view which, living where I've lived, is most definitely commonly held). And yes WE know that the young generation have everything to fear but i don't think they do. And Tone d'F, you're the deserving case. When I was talking about being tougher I meant on laws in general. Not just on benefits. By that point we'd started talking about litter and thats more of the track that I was on. I think we should be tougher on those who fiddle the system, and more caring to those who deserve it, because as I stated earlier (and I'm beginning to think people aren't reading the whole of this thread) that's what our welfare state was designed to do... I could tell you of a case I know of (sorry but I do not know where to find the legal shit you need like cases etc...but I do know the person who used to take statements for lawyers and stuff like that, precognitions) where a disabled kid was passed around two families on a particular council housing estate so they could both claim benefits for it (can't remember if it's a him or her, sorry...) What I meant when i said get tougher was to get tougher on those who are abusing the system, not those who are genuinely needing help... :) xxx |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in a mess part 2 From: swirlygirl Date: 07 Feb 02 - 01:55 PM Oh and McGrath, I value the world as ours and want to keep it in as good a state as possible for me and for everyone else who lives in it now, and who will live in it for years to come. I take my litter home, pay my way, would recycle if i could find a damn place to do it nearby in Liverpool as I have no car, and try to be as nice as possible. I'm attempting to qualify in order to be able to preserve the nation's heritage, and as an archivist the government expects you to participate in outreach programmes, to make people have a sense of their part in history and their place in the community, so believe you, me, I'm doing my but. But I can't speak for anyone else... :) xxx |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in a mess part 2 From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 07 Feb 02 - 01:59 PM "In this world if you don't pay for anything then what's the point in looking after it" - yes, that's the attitude that I understood you to be talking about, and I also appreciated that it was't one you were recommending.
The thing is, where does an attitude like that come from, and how has it been created? - because it's not one that most of the human race has ever held, I'm pretty certain. And it's not just in poor places where you get it either.
If it really takes hold and does become universal, we really have had it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in a mess part 2 From: Ferret Date: 07 Feb 02 - 02:09 PM swirlygirl I Have been doing historial re-enactment living history for 30 years as for having kids my point was with a genetic diabilaty you will not be alowed to have them and not your abilaty to look after them, as for reeding no problem asfor righting i'am dislexic with an IQ of 155 if you dont like my speling then have it in the raw. i donot have a problem with my selling you have the problem with it. all the best ferret |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in a mess part 2 From: swirlygirl Date: 07 Feb 02 - 02:31 PM Just like you have the problem with me so please get out of my face and take your bitterness somewhere else. You can't expect anyone to have sympathy for you when you continually diss someone else. At least I'm not bitter. And who says my disability is genetic? :) xxx |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in a mess part 2 From: swirlygirl Date: 07 Feb 02 - 02:52 PM Oh and don't expect me to feel embarrassed or guilty. You attack me, I'll attack back. It's called self-defence. I made no assumptions or judgements about you but you who have such a "wealth" of experience obviously consider yourself fit to judge me. You teaching your children that? :) xxx P.S. My disability is not genetic. For the record.
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in a mess part 2 From: swirlygirl Date: 07 Feb 02 - 02:54 PM Oh look what's the point? This thread is not a personal attack on anyone, its just that some people are taking it more personally than others. Life's too short... :) xxx |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in a mess part 2 From: GUEST Date: 07 Feb 02 - 02:56 PM ...at least she'll mellow with age... *grin* |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in a mess part 2 From: kendall Date: 07 Feb 02 - 03:00 PM I never told my kids about a "Bogeyman". The way I raised mine was to do my best to be an example for them to emulate. They told me after they were all grown up, that, that was what kept them out of trouble.I now have three daughters of whom I can be very proud. I see the problem as simply parental abdication. "Do whatever you want, just dont bug me." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in a mess part 2 From: swirlygirl Date: 07 Feb 02 - 03:55 PM The Bogeyman was just an example. I bet your kids had a healthy fear/respect for certain things. And is that you Paul M cropping up as a GUEST?!! Mellow with age...me??!! Never... :) xxx |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in a mess part 2 From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 07 Feb 02 - 06:26 PM Respect isn't at all the same as fear, not when it comes to people anyway. I can't really imagine respecting someone who kept me frightened of them.
If you know something is going to hurt someone you really don't want to hurt, that is a pretty strong reason not to do it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in a mess part 2 From: Cllr Date: 07 Feb 02 - 08:09 PM "And here comes in the question whether it is better to be loved rather than feared, or feared rather than loved. It might perhaps be answered that we should wish to be both; but since love and fear can hardly exist together, if we must choose between them, it is far safer to be feared than loved" Machiavelli |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in a mess part 2 From: DougR Date: 08 Feb 02 - 12:35 AM Swirlygirl: what spunk! I salute you! I really mean it. You present your position well, back it up with facts, and don't back down when challenged. Bravo, I say! DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in a mess part 2 From: GUEST,mgarvey@pacifier.com Date: 08 Feb 02 - 01:23 AM Amen. Keep it up. The world needs more people like you. mg |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in a mess part 2 From: Ebbie Date: 08 Feb 02 - 01:50 AM Think back 15-20 years ago to all those college courses and books where the question was whether society would be able to thrive or survive at all in an ever-faster-changing, ever more crowded world. Some of the direst predictions have not come true; some of them have. If you reread some of those textbooks, you might gain an appreciation for how well we are doing in some respects. On a slightly different note: I came very late to one awakening. I was almost 30 years old when I had an epiphany on taking responsibility. I was crossing the parking lot to my job and as usual tossed my cigarette butt away. I walked on a few steps then suddenly came to a complete halt. It had occurred to me to wonder who was going to pick up my cigarette butt? If I didn't do it, someone else would have to. I went back and picked it up and deposited it in the nearest trash. I was never quite so cavalier again. Ebbie |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in a mess part 2 From: Trevor Date: 08 Feb 02 - 07:16 AM Swirlygirl, I know just where you're coming from and wish I could put it in as articulate a manner. I can only describe the things that frustrate me: I work in an environment where I have contact with people who are not working. Some of them want to change their situation and it's great to be able to help them. Lots do not - I heard two complaining this morning about having to fill in forms to get 'what they are due'. They're not disabled in any way, they're not unintelligent they just know that, if they want, they can go home and sit in front of the telly all day - and will. They know how to play the system. One got cross with a colleague the other day and was recommended to attend an anger management programme. He admitted later that the reason he became abusive was because he wasn't gettiing his own way without question. I hate having to walk through town (a fairly small market town) on Saturday afternoon when the local team are at home. There are few actual punch-ups, but there are crowds of people getting pissed, shouting abuse at each other (or is it friendly banter?) and generally making it difficult to enjoy a pleasant afternoon mooching. I also realise that my idea of enjoyment may be different to any of the people I am talking about, but how do I deal with having them imposed on me. It is so difficult to get through without sounding like some old whinger with Fascist leanings but somebody, please, explain to me why I have to put up with so much crap, and if I have to, how. Sophisticated society - yeah, if by sophisticated you mean pretentious. Decadent - absulutely falling to bits. Civilised - I don't think so. Desert island anyone? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in a mess part 2 From: GUEST,swirlygirl Date: 08 Feb 02 - 07:43 AM I'm starting to feel like less of an island now!! At least some people can sort of see where I'm coming from. It just seems to me that on this forum you can't state an opinion and have someone else state theirs, perhaps challenging yours, in any way other than as a personal attack. What's with that? It's a debate, it's not personal... I still think fear is healthy. If we weren't afraid of certain things we'd have been fucked as a species a loooonnngg time ago...Being afraid gives you a sense of perspective of what NOT to be afraid of...ying and yang and all that. Some people on here, and it's not a bad thing, seem to think that this world can exist on love alone, where everyone is good. I just don't think that's going to happen. Yes you can make it happen in your own little space around you but you can't do sod all about anyone else! We need things from both ends of the spectrum in ALL things...it's just that I'd like it to lean a little more towards the genuine, honest and good, that's all... And when I say fear is healthy, I don't necessarily mean fear of people. It's a fear of what your actions or their actions might do to someone, and not just violent actions. Like you have to have a little fear of losing what you've got in order to learn to love it more. So you're in a relationship, you don't fear the person, but you do fear, even just a microscopic amount no matter how subconsciously, that they might do something to jeapordise the idyllic set up you have. It might not be something that to them would mean ANYTHING but to you it would cause litle cracks to appear in your world. So you realise how much you love the person, and remind yourself not to take them for granted. It's a fear of a sort that generates love. You have a fear over how your child is going to grow up in the world and what will happen to him/her so you go out of your way to make things the best you can. So again good is a product of a fear... Can you see where I'm coming from now? I genuinely think, and please dont have a go at me for this, that now that religion has lost its place in people's lives, and we have no after life to fear, that there's little point in being "bad" in this world because there will be no eternal repercussions. Now i don't mean to say that the institution of the church is a good thing...but the healthy fear of what might happen to you for eternity sure as damn kept me being good for years!! I still led a happy balanced life, and the fear/worry helped me along and sometimes made me be a little better than I had been cos it gives you a perspective and makes you think... :) xxx |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in a mess part 2 From: Ringer Date: 08 Feb 02 - 10:15 AM You've lost me, Swirls. Are you sure you don't mean "...there's little point in being "good" in this world..."? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in a mess part 2 From: GUEST,swirlygirl Date: 08 Feb 02 - 10:31 AM There's every point in being good in this world!!! Its just that sometimes we forget and we need a little nudge awake... :) xxx |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in a mess part 2 From: DougR Date: 08 Feb 02 - 05:31 PM You are quite right, of course Swirly, there are far too many people on this forum that cannot cope with someone's view if it does not coincide with theirs. So they attack. Too bad. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in a mess part 2 From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 10 Feb 02 - 03:28 PM A good idea maybe is to assume that if anyone attacks us they've misunderstood something about what we've said, (or we've misunderstood what they were saying) and therefore there is no point in attacking back.
In face to face situations there can be exceptions to that, since physical damage can be involved. But in a virtual world that just doesn't apply, and it seems to me that counter-attacking is always a waste of space.
Anti-social behaviour. I'd say there are two sorts - treating other people's property as your own, and treating anything you don't own as valueless. Both are annoying - but the second is far more disquieting. A thief who takes things to use and "own" is a pain; someone who destroys things without even wanting to use them, that's scary. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in a mess part 2 From: kendall Date: 10 Feb 02 - 08:06 PM Specifics people! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in a mess part 2 From: GUEST,English Jon Date: 11 Feb 02 - 08:47 AM Ferret, If you're so bloody clever, you can learn to spell. Swirly can type faster than anyone I know. And she's learning the melodeon. So there. EJ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in a mess part 2 From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 11 Feb 02 - 09:44 AM One of the reason the UK is in a mess is maybe because there is a fashion for squaring up for a fight and getting your retaliation in first, and that kind of thing.
It's a cultural virus. It goes with making play of being hyper-confident and hyper-assertive and in a hurry, and never admitting mistakes. It'd be nice to say "blame Maggie Thatcher", but that wasn't it. She only got by because there were a lot of people out there who actually like that style and have been infected by that mindset - and it's at least as characteristic of the Blairistas. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in a mess part 2 From: Ferret Date: 11 Feb 02 - 03:38 PM swirlygirl You make attacks on others and then complain when they hit back. Just you remember that empty vessels make the most noise. And you started the attacks on parents, and people on benefit. If you want to have more discipline in the home and the school then bring back corporal punish ment in school's and the home (yes I now parents are allowed in under English law to smack there kid if it's reasonable and appropriate, but try telling that to the social services) so parents have don't have their hands tide. As for there education you have kids getting lower mark's just because there parents can not afford a computer for them to set it out on and print so have to right it out by hand. Mine do have one but to do so a lot of the school trips and the more expensive activates have had to go like swimming lessons (I tort them my self) and uniforms have to last a bit longer. This dose mean that they get a lots of teasing and bullying as a result. Kids are now getting bullied for things as silly as parents not having the right 4X4 (as if that should mater) I hope that you never have to find out how very wrong you are BY EXPERIENCE English Jon if you look up dyslexia you will fine that it's an incunabula disability. You might just as well say to a man with out a boat well learn to walk on water. All the best ferret |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in a mess part 2 From: Ferret Date: 11 Feb 02 - 03:44 PM That should must not well. I don't know what happend there. sorry. ferret |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in a mess part 2 From: swirlygirl Date: 11 Feb 02 - 04:09 PM I only attaxk when attacked against. I didn't attack anyone personally until provoked...I attacked the system that has allowed society to become the way it has... Why are you so bitter? Why do you feel the need to bring down other people again and again and again? Maybe you should look inside yourself for the things you have to fix and stop dissing other people. I've been bullied, I've been smacked by parents as a kid (probably up until I was about 16!!) and I've lived in a deprved area with parents who worked all hours in crappy factory and cleaning jobs just to make sure we could have the things we needed. So you know what, I've experienced it...which you would have known if you'd read my earlier posts... And I'm not the one shouting with all the capital letters and shit... You give the impression that you think you're so far above everyone else cos you've "lived" the hard times...well so have we all in our own ways...and you're doing yourself no favours by being as angry s you so obviously are... Learn to deal with it...I stuck up for you saying you're one of the deserving cases who actually uses the support system that's there because you need to...and yet you still want to have a go at me...do you have any friends? Or have you driven them all away with your "I'm-such-the-martyr-please-pity-me" speeches... Get over it...I have...life is shit, and unfair, and nothing anyone can do will ever make it perfect but you need people from both left and right wings so you can have a middle... Oh and English Jon was making a point you dimwit...he wasn't actually suggesting you could learn to read, but obviously your grand IQ doesn't stretch to that...go figure it out...should keep you busy for a while... :) xx |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in a mess part 2 From: swirlygirl Date: 11 Feb 02 - 04:18 PM And kids don't get lower marks because you can't afford a computer!! What a stupid thing to say...there are lots of people out there who are geniuses (I suppose that would be genii or something for all those who no doubt will correct me) who've never used a computer in their lives. If you can't read, then what good does a computer do? GIGO as the saying goes... My school only had about two computers (and I graduated in 1995 so it's quite recent) and I'm doing fine thank you very much about to embark on a masters degree... I never went on a school trip in my life and I would never have asked if I could because I knew we couldn't afford it. yes I was bullied for stuff but that's part of life...it's nature...no matter what you do kids will always be bullied...we are only animals after all...Kids get over it. I have...and others I know have too...everyone is bullied in some way or other in life. It's the not letting it get to you and making you bitter and angry that's the hard part. If you do it right, it can make you stronger. You can't wallow in your own self pity forever...Christ if I'd to do that I'd never get out of bed! And corporal punishment...all for it...think the deterrent factor is good. Child burns hand once in fire, tends not to do it again. Child gets strap across hand in school would you cause trouble again? I wouldn't... So you see ferrett...I'm actually on your side...you infuriate me by not realising that, but I'm still on your side... :) xxx |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in a mess part 2 From: swirlygirl Date: 11 Feb 02 - 04:25 PM Oh that should have been "learn to spell" not "read"...sorry...very tired and sick at moment... :) xxx |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in a mess part 2 From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 11 Feb 02 - 06:34 PM Corporal punishment works as a deterrent? Maybe if it's really savage. Or if it's just a threat hanging over you. If it's a routine thing without being savage you just get to shrug it off.
When I was at school it was a regular enough thing. I honestly cannot remember ever being deterred from anything by the thought I might get beaten for it. I doubt if it did me any harm, or any good. A pretty pointless exercise.
When it's suggested that somehow deterioration in how we treat each other, if there is such, is the result of cutting out corporal punishment and so forth, it occurs to me to wonder how come there are other countries that have done without that kind of thing for years and without giving the impression that this leads to a breakdown of society.
And how true is really, over and above the fact that bad news makes good news, both in the media and in interpersonal gossip?
Driving off to the Mudgathering at Milton Keynes (Stony Stratford) as the weekend my car started making horrible noises. Colin(who plays the bodhran), whom I normally rely on, with his small garage, was up to his neck.
So I went into one of those KwikFit garages, which I never use as a rule. Up on the ramp goes the car, and the young lad sees it's a clamp that's gone, so he pops out the back and rummages around and then sorts it out. "Here you are" he says - and insists there's no charge. < And the point of that is, it's the kind of story people don't talk to you about normally, because grumbling is second nature to us. Or they quote it when it happens on some overseas trip as a marker of how much nicer people are away from here. WE kid ourselves that people are much nastier than they are, and then feel an obligation to live up to it. Or rather, live down to it. (And if it so happens we are in a place where people are in fact pretty nasty morer times than not, we assume it's really like that all over.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in a mess part 2 From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull Date: 11 Feb 02 - 08:00 PM Swirlgirl-You were lucky! We lived in a cardboard box in the middle of the road. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in a mess part 2 From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 11 Feb 02 - 08:41 PM Cardboard box? You were lucky. We lived for three months in a brown paper bag in a septic tank. We used to have to get up at six o'clock in the morning, clean the bag, eat a crust of stale bread, go to work down mill for fourteen hours a day week-in week out. When we got home, out Dad would thrash us to sleep with his belt!
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in a mess part 2 From: John Routledge Date: 11 Feb 02 - 09:03 PM There you are folks. Things aren't too bad nowadays in the UK after all. Thanks Kevin |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in a mess part 2 From: GUEST,swirlygirl Date: 12 Feb 02 - 07:54 AM I said I lived in a deprived area! I didn't say in what now did I? And that would be telling!! I always tell people good things that happen to me...I try to grumble very little. Ask English Jon...I inherited the goodness in everyone thing from my mother to an extent...but I've been soured a bit by experience...so I grumble a little...not a lot...but a little... :) xxx |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in a mess part 2 From: Ferret Date: 12 Feb 02 - 02:43 PM Swirlygirl I was sorry to hear that you are unwell and hope your better soon. I am not attacking you personally only some of your views. When you have some one that has only just been caught by the safety net of the D.S.S. and are under constant attack from all sides, I have to listen to M.P.'s saying that "all these single parent family's, Who have kid's just to get a council house and live on the dole" I am only one of many who have to live this way. I do not won't or expect sympathy. But when you are struggling to make ends meat, you react very badly to people who threaten that lifeline. As for my spelling, I only attaxk when attacked. & stop dissing. I've lived in a deprved area, which did you mean depraved or deprived. And as for experience, I was at my kid's birth and witnessed it all but that doesn't mean that I know what is like to give birth just because you see someone else coping with a problem doesn't mean you know all about it. As for being above everyone else far from it I know many people that are far worse off than me and who cope with it better, just as I know people who are better off and don't. As for my ability to read then try this, is dulne mé cé féad obair sa dó teanga. As for being as you put it "being as angry s you so obviously are" far from it Yes I do have many, many friends some for more than thirty-five years. As for he was making a point, no I'm sorry he was not he failed miserably. As for kids not getting lower marks, they do as part of the mark is for presentation in English, and I.T. is just about imposable to do as homework with out a P.C. And it is common courtesy not to resort to name calling, which just shows a lack of a good argument. At no point have I resorted to name-calling. If you can't read, what good does a computer do? Who can't read I read English, Old English, Irish, Anglo-Saxon some Old Norse. I can't spell. Dyslexia is word blindness where you and most people see words as a group of letters people with dyslexia see a picture or paten and as there ar 40,000 word and 20,00 technical terms we have to try and memorise all of them. I am also left handed, now you did not say which hand you are missing but if it's the right one then you will know what its like to have to fit in to a world That dose things differently to you. I am not trying to annoy you but get you to understand Understanding not sympathy. As for your graduating in 1995 my youngest started school in 1995 and in that 7 years there have been a lot of changes some for the good some not so good As for corporal punishment the bottom is better than the hand. As for bulling my son had two broken fingers a broken arm and a stone in the eye that left him with tunnel vision for 18 months just because he had a slow physical development not starting puberty till 16 1/2 this with his birthday in late September made him the oldest and the smallest in his year. He is now 22 and is still not over this it has left him very weary of people and suspicious, so finds it difficult to make friends but he is married with one son, and has a job. If you make sweeping statements and generality then you will upset people just remember that for every £1.00 criminally take out of the DSS, about £10.00 are not clamed for every £100 spent on DSS fraud only £50 is recovered, for every £100 spent on tax evasion about £1000 is recovered. What you may not be aware of is DSS capping that is to say that they workout how much you need and no mater how much you qualify for you will not get any more. Even child benefit is deducted from income-support penny for penny just as carer's allowance is. Unlike the rest of the EU. The one thing that doses make me mad is that when I fill in forms and I must put my self down as unemployed. And as you agreed I have to work long and hard so I'm not unemployed. Civilisations are judged by how they treat their weakest members. There are some mud-cater's that you have made so annoyed that they dear not reply as that kind of language is discouraged on the cat. This will be my last post on this thread so don't expect a reply to any reply you may make as this is not getting us any where. All the best Ferret. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in a mess part 2 From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 12 Feb 02 - 04:05 PM It's rather a pity more people don't post their pictures in the Mudcat rogues gallery. It's much harder to work up a hate against someone with a face. By and large anyway.
You'd have a job working up a hate against Ferret, whatever he said. (That's from running into him at Stony Stratford - he's not in the Mudcat picture gallery, not on an individual basis anyway.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in a mess part 2 From: Tone d' F Date: 12 Feb 02 - 05:27 PM Now why can't I get Ferret to write this much for our magazine. All I get is say this or write that ohh and tell tem about... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in a mess part 2 From: English Jon Date: 13 Feb 02 - 05:05 AM Ferret, my Dad is dyslexic, and his spelling is rotten, but it's a lot better than it used to be. Anyway, you're behaving like a prat. Love, EJ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in a mess part 2 From: GUEST,swirlygirl Date: 13 Feb 02 - 07:55 AM Ok...look I give in cos I don't have the energy for this at the moment...maybe in a few days I will cos I'll be feeling better... Oh and I did historical english as a degree so we have something in common ferrett!! I can read Old Icelandic, Old English, Gothic, Old Saxon, Old High German and shit like that...look common ground... And when I use names like "dimwit" I say that to everyone... My friend Sam who's now training to be a journalist and doing fab at it...is dyslexic and she's improved her spelling...it can be done... I have younger cousins who are at school and even though they're marked on presentation they don't word process stuff unless its specifically a computer project, for which they're given time in school cos the staff know that not all of the kids have PCs...you can present stuff just as well without one. Oh and reading is different from translating...I can read some foreign languages but I don't necessarily know what they mean in their entirety... Anyway...I'm at work...suffering...with awful throat and headache and fever and shit...so I'm conserving my energy... Live and let live...I have my views, which some people agree with, and others have theirs. I think in this world you need a bit of both sides and some in the middle to make it work... :) xxx |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in a mess part 2 From: jon a Date: 26 Feb 02 - 09:24 PM I found my cookie! so I can be back,YIPEE!!! I do not want to get into attacks and mis-understandings so I will just say that imho the 2 main factors that are crippleing Britain are the politicians who give the impression that they are more interested in getting pay increases,perks and pensions than in trying to improve the country. And the restrictions on discipline for young people, which leads to a bunch of bored teenage louts who seem to take pleasure in upset and destruction. Or course all these people who keep trying (and sometimes succeeding) to ban passtimes or items that they do not want, and the E.U. poking around in our soverign buisiness could probably be described as unhelpful too |