BS: UK immigration too high?

Subject: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 02:55 PM

Back on the BNP thread there was talk of dicussing immigration rather than just BNP.

I think we all know what BNP stand for, so let's leave them out of it.

Let's ignore trolling guests who will try to cause friction.

I think that immigration levels in recent years give cause for legitimate concerns. Does anyone else have any concerns (excluding, please, racial ones)?

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Wesley S
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 02:58 PM

As an American I have no trouble with UK immigration levels. However - the fellow who works at the next desk in my office - named Ian - is from Hull. Would you care to have him back??

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: artbrooks
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 03:09 PM

In the US, we seem to be having some of our recent immigrants going home because their jobs have dried up. Is the UK experiencing the same thing?

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 03:40 PM

Yes. The recession has seen many return to Eastern Europe.
The majority of our immigrants, however, are from Africa and the Indian subcontinent.

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Emma B
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 03:43 PM

Recent research in 5 countries showed that migrants tend to come to the United Kingdom for economic reasons, but leave for personal reasons.

Tim Finch, Head of Migration at ippr, says:

'The migration debate in the UK is fixated with the idea that immigrants come to settle and not enough attention has been paid to the fact that more and more immigrants are spending only short periods in the UK. Our research shows that many groups of migrants are now increasingly mobile. They are coming to the UK to study and work for short periods and then they are moving on'

Of course this also applies to the millions of Brits working abroad.

Shall we stay or shall we go attempts to analyse re-migration from the United Kingdom, and to understand what motivates immigrants to leave.

While I'm not arguing that net immigration is falling it does seem to have stabalized from what - yes Keith!, the ippr report refers to 'unprecedented immigration' figures 'in recent years' during an economic boom but also takes a much more objective view of immigration and labour skills.

I'm all for divorcing the issue from the other thread but, given the BNP have made it a major issue, I honestly don't see how they can be left out of any discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 03:54 PM

Why can't we discuss immigration without bringing them into it?

They have extreme, racist views.

We can leave race and them out of the discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 03:55 PM

None whatsoever.

Most if my best friends are immigrants or from immigrant families. Like me.

People generally only come here because they expect to be able to work for a living, and that's normally the case. They only get to do those jobs if there aren't local people who want to do them, and can do them as well.

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Lox
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 03:56 PM

I am very interested to learn about this issue and would like to offer my full support to the OP for starting it.

It is perfectly possible to discuss this issue without referring to the BNP.

In fact, this issue is most usefully discussed without referring to the BNP.

I'm curious to see the "issues" defined, and to learn the facts.

Leaving the BNP out of it is not only possible but essential as they only see one issue - immigrants are bad and they should be deported.

I suppose it does no harm to look at that question, but I suspect it might take over the conversation and that any other issues might as a result get overlooked.

Good luck!

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Royston
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 04:10 PM

Keith,

Yes. The recession has seen many return to Eastern Europe.
The majority of our immigrants, however, are from Africa and the Indian subcontinent.

But afro-carribbean and indian subcontinent immigration mostly all happened in 1947-1970. In recent years the "wave" of immigration has been from Eastern Europe with war refugees from Iraq and Afghanistan.

Are you saying you have a problem with migrants who have been settled here for several generations? Do you want *them* to go home?

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Royston
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 04:21 PM

What I'm trying to understand is do you think we have a problem with current immigration, or historic immigration. Some immigrants or all of them? Should we reverse immigration or just stop or limit future immigration?

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: GUEST,Geordie
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 04:31 PM

THE number of Eastern European migrants claiming benefits has almost doubled in the last year, costing the taxpayer up to £190million annually.

Around 267,000 migrants who came here to work are now receiving or claiming benefits – almost a fifth of those who have arrived since 2004.


The huge drain on public funds came as tens of thousands more Poles and their neighbours arrived in the first quarter of this year.


The latest Home Office figures are another example of the huge strain migration has placed on local authorities and the public purse.

I want to see limits placed on the number of "Free Loaders" coming into the UK for a handy fistful of notes.

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Royston
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 04:35 PM

But to answer the original question, is UK Immigration too high (pending Keith's clarifications) I would say, in general terms...

The British went out and dominated the planet by way of an Empire. We took an enormous amount of wealth and accrued an almighty set of privileges for ourselves.

As Empire was disbanded, we invited planned numbers of British Citizens from the Imperial Colonies to come and live in Britain and continue to be British. Those British Citizens happen to have been Indian, Pakistani, African and Caribbean by descent.

They were as entitled to live here on these islands as any other British Citizen.

I believe they and their descendants have enriched our Great nation in the period since 1945 and helped forge modern Britain as much as any other hard-working British person has.

In figures that Keith and I agree on, immigration ticked over unremarkably until 1997 or therabouts when, like the rest of the Western World, we launched ourselves into the great economic bubble (boom, if you will). The immigration rate increased again because we needed an awful lot of tax-paying workers. The proof of that need lies in the fact that even with the influx of people, we had effectively full employment in this country.

Now we are in recession, migrant workers are leaving and the new arrivals have fallen through the floor (numerically).

Oh, because we went out and started destroying and murdering in Iraq and Afghanistan, we were obliged to offer asylum to many of our victims. I regard that as the least we could do (and not enough).

So all told, no I don't think, in the very general terms of the original question, that "Immigration is too high".

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Royston
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 04:39 PM

Geordie (but I doubt you'll stay and answer)

Where are your figures from?

No European can claim UK benefits of any sort without having lived here for at least 12 months. So why should an EU Citizen who has paid tax in this country be excluded from the benefits?

But first and foremost, where are your figures from?

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: GUEST,Geordie
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 05:06 PM

Britain has become a 'war zone' thanks to mass immigration. Parts of London and Manchester are more dangerous for the ordinary Brit than Iraq was for a British soldier.

London is one of the most dangerous cities in Europe. We live in an increasingly violent society where teen gun gangs hold whole suburbs hostage.

It the product of Black single parenthood, and their culture of carrying guns and peddling drugs.

It is the black community who brought gun and drug culture to the streets of South London, & Moss Side and Longsight in Manchester. You can't say it doesn't exist.

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: irishenglish
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 05:09 PM

I'd just like to reply to Geordie and say bullshit.

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Lox
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 05:09 PM

I live in South London.

I can say that it doesn't exist.

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Royston
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 05:15 PM

I also live in South London and know that Geordie is a liar.

I am safe and sound, I have no fear. I am in a white minority in my neighbourhood. I don't recognise Geordie's fantasy-land.

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 05:18 PM

The arguments a flying fast.
Non EU immigration.
Figures are difficult to get, but in 2006 68% of foreign immigration was non EU.
Over a longer period it is 92%
EU migrants do not have to check in and out.
i million registered for work, but not all will have remained.

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 05:20 PM

McGrath, my experience is similar, but would you advocate unlimited immigration because of it?

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: GUEST,Geordie
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 05:21 PM

It's fact.

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 05:22 PM

Royston,
"What I'm trying to understand is do you think we have a problem with current immigration, or historic immigration. Some immigrants or all of them? Should we reverse immigration or just stop or limit future immigration? "

Advocates of balanced migration advocate a gradual reduction over many years to achieve balance.

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 05:27 PM

Beware of replying to trolling guests.
They want to make people angry.
Joe will delete their posts and the replies will make no sense.

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: GUEST,Geordie
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 05:42 PM

Britain's taxpayers are forking out more than £21million a year in child benefit for youngsters living in Poland, official figures reveal.

A loophole in EU regulations means migrants from other EU countries who are seeking work in the UK can claim state handouts for children they have left behind in their home countries.

The total benefits bill for the Treasury is likely to be closer to £50million a year when other Eastern European countries are included.
In addition, ministers refuse to reveal how much more is being paid out in tax credits.

Britain's child benefit payments of £941 per year for a first child or £629 per year for younger siblings are far higher than the equivalent paymentsin Eastern European states that are new EU members.

The Polish benefits system, for example, pays a maximum of around £160 per year in child benefit.

Investigations have found that many workers moving to Britain are fraudulently claiming family benefits in both countries, exploiting lax checks and poor information sharing between member states.

Figures released by the Treasury show 26,000 Polish children from 16,286 families were being paid child benefits by UK taxpayers.

That means 16,286 first-born children were receiving the full £18.10 per week with the remaining 10,000 getting the lower payment of £12.10 per week.

The figures show that the number of claimants is soaring.

In June last year, the Treasury said 14,000 families from eight Eastern European states were claiming the benefits - around 10,000 were estimated to be Polish.

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Emma B
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 05:46 PM

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 05:27 PM

Well said Keith! - no one is going to disagree with that :)

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Bill D
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 05:57 PM

What most discussions of this type fail to do is to get at the BASIC question/issue.


ANY situation or action or behavior...etc. that has no practical limitations will usually get out of hand.

Unlimited fishing, unlimited TV for the kids, unlimited sunbathing, unlimited traffic....you get the idea.

Of course restrictions on most desirable activities are necessary! ....and of course, those who are restricted will usually object.

It is not necessary to insert racial/cultural issues into the debate...they are always there if there is any cultural conflict, but the discussion can and should be carried on with as neutral a base as possible.

There are few solutions which are even easily discussed....too many people who have become 'aware' that life in general is better somewhere else means that many want to emigrate. It all made sense in 1753 or 1845. Now it is an issue.

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Royston
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 06:04 PM

Phew Bill,

Just as well that we've got well controlled and restricted immigration policies in this country then.

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 06:05 PM

The official statistics I linked to on the other thread showed immigration as having fallen and still falling. So I don't see the need for any further steps yet. I particularly don't see the fact that proportionally more immigration is from outside the EU as cause for concern.

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Bill D
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 06:08 PM

Royston *smile* sure....

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Emma B
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 06:26 PM

Immigration points system

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Lox
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 06:26 PM

A quick comment from the economist about the Daily Mail's weak attempts at scaremongering and resentment stoking in 2007, when they reported the story of the alleged child benefit scroungers.


Read it here.

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 07:28 PM

We've got "unlimited immigration", in principle, within the European Union. Most people stay home. Most of those who come prove themselves to be useful members of society.

The same goes for people coming here from outside the European Union. One difference here is that in this case there is no reciprocal right to go and live in their country.

On the whole, immigration has made this country a better place to live in than it was before.

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Bill D
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 07:40 PM

That's good to know, Kevin...I hope it continues like that.

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: GUEST,Geordie
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 08:02 PM

"On the whole, immigration has made this country a better place to live in than it was before"

Clearly you don't live near families of nine living in one house speaking no English, drinking beer all day and selling dope near you. Raising their glasses to the British Social Security Benefit system.

Europeans come here to breed, Claim benefits, bring their granny over and get the N.H.S. to run an M.O.T. on her.

They turn me.

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 01:53 AM

What's more, they rape our jobs, take our women, and they smell.

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Royston
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 03:11 AM

lol @ Paul

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Darowyn
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 04:20 AM

I suppose the point of the question is to think through the proposition that, despite the many benefits that immigrants have brought to this country, is there a problem with the sheer numbers?
Clearly the kneejerk reaction of many of those who rail against immigration do so because their feelings towards immigrants lie somewhere along the line between fear and hate. The Geordie troll demonstrates this.
I saw a small example of the benefits recently when I rode through Handsworth in Birmingham. The vitality of the shopping area and the variety bore no comparison to the nearly all white bourgeois town of Malvern where I lived at the time- which like many similar, is not thriving.
I was there, incidentally, recording with a Nepalese producer, a Carribbean rapper, and a Polish backing singer. We were recording a Scottish folk song. I'm from Yorkshire.
I like to meet people from other parts of the world. I'm happy to have them living in this country.
On the other hand I do not relish the prospect of a significant growth in the population here- whatever the cause.   
Cheers,
Dave

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 05:00 AM

"Parts of London and Manchester are more dangerous for the ordinary Brit than Iraq was for a British soldier"

I live in Manchester. Can you tell me which parts you are referring to? Er, have you ever actually been to Manchester?

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 05:14 AM

Just igore the trolls.
Most of us seem to broadly agree that unlimited immigration would not be good, and it is just the level that we are disputing?

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Lox
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 05:52 AM

"Most of us seem to broadly agree that unlimited immigration would not be good, and it is just the level that we are disputing?"

Also I would wager that most of us accept that a total absence of immigration would not be a good thing either for the economy or for our culture.

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 06:11 AM

Yes, i would agree that.
Now, is the current level too high?

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Chris Green
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 06:18 AM

'Clearly you don't live near families of nine living in one house speaking no English, drinking beer all day and selling dope near you. Raising their glasses to the British Social Security Benefit system'

No. On the other hand I do live fairly near a family of five who do all of the above AND speak English, as they were all born here and are ethnically Anglo-Saxon. But presumably that makes it okay...?

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 06:30 AM

Maybe what's needed is a policy which will maintain a zero net population growth?

I believe the UK has pretty much as many people living here as it can cope with. Nothing to do with race, purely numbers. Some sort of policy to maintain our population at the current level - no more, no less - would be a good idea, and should involve other issues as well as immigration/emigration. Like birth-control.

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 07:30 AM

Richard,
"The official statistics I linked to on the other thread showed immigration as having fallen and still falling. So I don't see the need for any further steps yet. I particularly don't see the fact that proportionally more immigration is from outside the EU as cause for concern."

The concern is that EU incomers are very likely to return, but not those from third world countries.

The fall you refer to is mainly due to EU returnees.
Non EU immigration remains historically high.

Until 1982 there was a net outflow of migrants from Britain.
Between 1982 and 1997 average net immigration was about 50,000 a year. It has
climbed rapidly since 1997 to reach a peak of 244,000 in 2004. This has now fallen to
about 190,000 a year.

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: bobad
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 07:59 AM

"Europeans come here to breed, Claim benefits, bring their granny over...."

Hmmm....what one may have heard from the Original People of Canada regarding UKers?

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 08:07 AM

Zero population growth would certainly aggravate the pensions timebomb.

If a magic wand could solve that, then I would really prefer a whole lot fewer people across the entire world.

But I can't see how a fortress state with zero population growth internally could hold off the rest of the world for ever.

This is not, really, a UK only problem, to the extent that it is a problem.

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 08:27 AM

The UK problem is very high immigration added to very high population density, especiall in England where almost all settle.

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 09:57 AM

"ANY situation or action or behavior...etc. that has no practical limitations will usually get out of hand."

I have to agree with that - and yet the concept of the bottomless pit/pot-of-infinite-capacity seems to be one on which most social policy and economic theory is be based. I quite like living in a diverse society, and in many ways I consider that another person's ethnic background is none of my business and should not affect the way that I deal with that person on a day-to-day day basis. But I am aware that high population densities can lead to dangerous tensions building within society. Politicians and decision makers cannot just assume that allowing the population to keep on growing (by whatever means) has no consequences and can be ignored. One consequence is, of course, that people from an obviously different ethnic background to the majority population make obvious scapegoats for fascists like the BNP.

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 11:32 AM

"Zero population growth would certainly aggravate the pensions timebomb."

That timebomb will eventually explode no matter what the population situation Richard, unless there's some radical, outside-the-box thinking done by those responsible for pensions policy.

The fact remains - the UK is rapidly becoming seriously overcrowded and is beginning to suffer the problems and tensions that overcrowding causes - like racist conflict and attitudes f'rinstance.

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Royston
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 02:08 PM

But surely the points-based immigration system deals with this entire issue, doesn't it?

If you are a non EU Citizen (including the 8 recent accession states) then you have to prove that you have;

*a skill or trade necessary to the economy
*money and accommodation to support yourself and any dependants
*an effective grasp of the English language

So if we only admit the people that we need and who can support themselves, the problem is...what?

I don't fancy fortress Britain. I make a living out of working in other countries and so do many people. This country has no meaningful industry (thanks Maggie and Tony!) and the only exports we have are financial services (shit!) and expertise that we deploy where it is needed. The work I do is always at the cost of local people in the places I go to, but I prove that they need me, they agree, I earn money, they get their problems sorted out.

If we become a bunker, what hope do we have?

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 02:52 PM

"An effective use of the English language" would be liable to exclude quite a lot of people whose ancestors have been living here since the year dot...