Help needed understanding Shuffler guitar style

Subject: Help needed understanding Shuffler guitar style
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Aug 08 - 04:54 AM

I have seen videos of George Shuffler playing his guitar style.
Iunderstand he uses a DDU ,System of picking.
1,does he[when he is playing melody] play his crotchet notes on a down beat,and quavers on an up beat,[ala maybelle carter]and just use DDU,to fill out long notes.
I find it difficult even when heis playing slowly to see exactly what he does.
can anyone indicate,with notation how George Shuffler might play Wildwood flower.thanks

Subject: RE: Help needed understanding Shuffler guitar styl
From: M.Ted
Date: 28 Aug 08 - 08:02 AM

Here's a video--if you can't figure it out from here, notation won't help.George Shuffler explains how he does it

Subject: RE: Help needed understanding Shuffler guitar style
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 28 Aug 08 - 08:56 AM

It's a style called crosspicking. Wildwood Flower works well in this style. Do a bit of browsing.

Subject: RE: Help needed understanding Shuffler guitar style
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Aug 08 - 09:01 AM

yes. I have seen that,whats wrong with that is that it does not explain very slowly,that a bunch of 8 quavers are played dduddudu.
I have subsequently found notation for a Shuffler style/ Wildwood flower.
the tab is very useful because,it shows sometimes that the E note is not played by an open string but is fretted on second string 5 fret.
as far as I am concerned ,notation and tablature certainly does help,.

Subject: RE: Help needed understanding Shuffler guitar styl
From: M.Ted
Date: 28 Aug 08 - 10:48 AM

Do what you like.

Subject: RE: Help needed understanding Shuffler guitar styl
From: M.Ted
Date: 28 Aug 08 - 10:57 AM

Wildwood Flower generally gets played Carter-style, which I am sure you know.

Subject: RE: Help needed understanding Shuffler guitar styl
From: pdq
Date: 28 Aug 08 - 11:11 AM

It is hard to understand why somebody needs to immitate George Shuffler exactly, note-for-note. His cross-picking in the early days with the Stanley Brothers was rather simple compared to the competition virtuocity of David Grier, Tony Rice and others.

You can work on your own version by immitating fingerpicking pattens with the flatpick. You should be able to include any one of the six strings in any order you want, a bit of a practised skill. It sounds like fingerpicking except that only one note sounds at a time, but the notes can be loud and clean.

Subject: RE: Help needed understanding Shuffler guitar style
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Aug 08 - 11:22 AM

who says I want to imitate George Shuffler note for note.I just want to use it to improve my crosspicking.
as most of you know I am a concertina player,I teach a little bit of guitar and just wanted to become a bit more familiar with this style,to help people at a basic level,I prefer to fingerpick the guitar.
when I do gigs I sing english /irish traditional music with concertina and fingerpicked guitar.
hope you good old boys might like thishttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=La4LlMCcd_s

Subject: RE: Help needed understanding Shuffler guitar style
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 28 Aug 08 - 11:25 AM

Actually, doing "Wildwood Flower" Carter Family style with the occasional cross-picking ( on the G7th chord) thrown in workd really well.

Subject: RE: Help needed understanding Shuffler guitar style
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Aug 08 - 01:47 PM

Thinking in terms of whether notes are quavers or whatever when it comes to how you pick them is a new one on me.

Subject: RE: Help needed understanding Shuffler guitar styl
From: M.Ted
Date: 28 Aug 08 - 02:07 PM

An interesting take on the tune, Dick. Curious to here your version of WWF--and, yep, we's good ol' boys, but you best smile when you say it;-)

Subject: RE: Help needed understanding Shuffler guitar style
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 28 Aug 08 - 03:33 PM

Thanks for making the inquiry, Captain. I've watched some videos of George Shuffler and really enjoyed his playing.

Now, if no one calls the pick police, I'm going to pick up a guitar and try playing it down-down-up.

Subject: RE: Help needed understanding Shuffler guitar style
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Aug 08 - 04:07 PM

mcgrath.
pick direction is vey important,generally speaking more emphasis can be aheived with a down pick,so if 8 quavers,are picked ddud dudu,you might get more emphasis on picks 12457.
now on my tenor banjo,when I am playing irish jigs,I often pick beats 1 and 4 on a down pick,so for six quavers,I might pick dud dud.but if i want emphasis somewhere else I might pick udd udd.

Subject: RE: Help needed understanding Shuffler guitar styl
From: pdq
Date: 28 Aug 08 - 06:18 PM

In the ol' US of A "quaver" means an unsteady note or maybe a trill You may be correct that the word can mean "eight note", but why not just say that? The point of using words is to communicate and "quaver", if used at all, is probably considered archaic.

I've been told that Clarence White and others used DDU-DDU-DU for "eight beats to the bar" flatpicking. Very much like a Cha Cha.

Subject: RE: Help needed understanding Shuffler guitar style
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 28 Aug 08 - 07:46 PM

pdq, the Captain hasn't even scratched the surface of archaism yet.

English composers were writing in breves , minims, crotchets and quavers before the Pilgrim Fathers were a glint in their daddies' eyes, so show some respect for tradition.

Subject: RE: Help needed understanding Shuffler guitar styl
From: M.Ted
Date: 28 Aug 08 - 07:48 PM

pdq-In that far off land across the sea where Dick is, they often use the term "quaver" for eighth note, and "crotchet" for quarter note. So that's just the way he talks--it's just like his using "Labour" instead of "Labor"--

I am still not sure what Dick wants--whether it is to play "Wildwood Flower", to play a bluegrass-type guitar accompaniment, or to use that Shuffler Roll in the style of music that he plays

Subject: RE: Help needed understanding Shuffler guitar styl
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 28 Aug 08 - 08:25 PM

""quaver", if used at all, is probably considered archaic."

Classical Musos will be amused to hear that...

Subject: RE: Help needed understanding Shuffler guitar styl
From: pdq
Date: 28 Aug 08 - 08:36 PM

The question was aimed (primarily) at Americans since George Shuffler is best known and his influence better understood in the ol' US of A. I too have no idea whether the question is about the "loopy "(Carter-like) cross-picking sound of George Shuffler and is an attempt to re-create that, or is the question about modern cross-picking in general. Doc Watson is an "up and down" picker but can easily mix some cross-picking with it in the same break.

Subject: RE: Help needed understanding Shuffler guitar style
From: GUEST,crazy little woman
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 06:09 PM

Apparently there isn't any book, tab or similar.

I've studied the video of 'You'll miss me when I'm gone.' I think this is what he's doing. He's playing the melody on the low strings, and when there is a sustained note, such as a half note, he plays an arpeggio on the treble strings, using the right chord (predetermined) and picking the down down up pattern.

Does that help any?

He probably also throws in a few harmony notes with the melody to add extra richness until he can get to the arpeggios.

Subject: RE: Help needed understanding Shuffler guitar style
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 06:16 PM

yews ,it does, thanks.

Subject: RE: Help needed understanding Shuffler guitar style
From: GUEST,crazy little woman
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 06:57 PM

Awwright! Here's something else I thought of while putting the barbecue in the oven.

Wait - the video I'm speaking of is here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTr9xudLyCY

Okay. When George plays the song for the interviewer, he plays the arpegios, as I mentioned. You get an excellent close-up of his fingers when he does it.

The arpeggios are in some kind of triple time. You can hear them going 'Hen-ri-et-ta Ev-ans, Hen-ri-et-ta Ev-ans.' That could be twelve eighth notes or twelve sixteenth notes - I can't tell.

1. That explains the importance of down-down-up. The up stroke sets his hand in motion toward his chin, so he can either resume the melody on the bass strings or repeat the pattern for more arpeggio. George says something like 'If you don't use it, you're stuck. Have nowhere to go.' I believe that's what he's talking about.

2. This is the brilliant part - I don't believe the song itself has to be in a triple meter in order to use this triple pattern for the arpeggios. It's probably very nifty to have a song in 2/4 or 4/4 and then use this triple pattern during the long notes to produce a shimmering sensation.

I believe they got the idea from J.S. Bach. cf 'Jesu Joy of Man's Desiring.'

3. If you are across the pond, aren't you up pretty late?

Subject: RE: Help needed understanding Shuffler guitar style
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 04:50 AM

Thanks again.
I am on the west coast Ireland,and I must have posted about 11 30pm,I had just come back from a gig[7 oclock to 10 pm].

Subject: RE: Help needed understanding Shuffler guitar style
From: GUEST,crazy little woman
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 08:57 AM

Not that late, then. I feared it was 1 am.

I hope you are able to work up some nice effects with George as your inspiration. He seems like a charming man.

Subject: RE: Help needed understanding Shuffler guitar style
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 09:51 AM

yes, he does seem reticent about his own ability.
this ddu pick I also use a bit on tenor banjo,when the melody goes from one string,to an adjacent and then stays on the adjacent string.,slightly different from doing it on three strings,hope to get time later tonight to start improving my picking .

Subject: RE: Help needed understanding Shuffler guitar style
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 02:03 PM

I think George finds it hard to talk about his methods because it's been years since he developed them, and the moves have gone into 'muscle memory.' It's hard to verbalize that.

As an example - I like to play simple tunes on the piano, improvising the bass from the chords. If I played something and you asked me how I had just played a certain measure, I doubt if I could tell you.

I do think that the interviewer should have formulated his questions in a more intelligent way. 'How did you come to develop your style?' does not give this elderly man much of a lead.

Subject: RE: Help needed understanding Shuffler guitar style
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 02:49 PM

Quavers and crotchets and so forth are by no means "archaic" - they are still the normal terms in most countries where English is used.

Subject: RE: Help needed understanding Shuffler guitar style
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 04:35 PM

I find it difficult,it is the complete opposite of piedmont melody finger picking,where the melody is in the treble.
still thanks for all your help, I will keep working on it.

Subject: RE: Help needed understanding Shuffler guitar style
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 07:09 PM

watching this video of Tony Rice playing "Church Street Blues" might help as well.

the finest piece of crosspicking on YouTube imo.

Subject: RE: Help needed understanding Shuffler guitar style
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 06:32 AM

his thumb appears to be flexing at the first joint.very good playing.

Subject: RE: Help needed understanding Shuffler guitar style
From: Mark Clark
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 04:07 PM

It's nice to see interest in crosspicking technique. I intended to respond earlier but have been busy. Sorry.

The YouTube video clip that M.Ted first linked and that you're all referring to is an excerpt from Clinch Mountain Guitar (DVD, CD and Tab Book) By James Alan Shelton. Shelton currently performs with Ralph Stanley and the Clinch Mountain Boys and is a superb player in this style in his own right. Shelton is the one interviewing Shuffler in the YouTube clip.

There are two main styles of guitar crosspicking in wide use today. The first is the Shuffler-Napier (George and Bill argued over who was first) "DDU" style. The second is the strict "DUDU" style preferred by most modern flatpick virtuosos. Clarence White, an early virtuoso and inspiration for Tony Rice, used both techniques.

The "DDU" style is perfect for those Will You Miss Me When I'm Gone? kind of tunes where blinding speed isn't a requirement. the "DUDU" style, once mastered, will give you more speed for those hot rags and breakdowns.

Each style presents its own challenges to mastery. The "DDU" style forces one to carefully develop muscle memory for the quirky motion needed to play it. The "DUDU" style is easier for the picking hand because the player doesn't need to anticipate an alteration of the usual pick movement in order to do it. But the "DUDU" does force the player to deal with playing strings and beats in different directions depending on where the pattern falls.

One key to Shuffler's playing in the YouTube clip is that he's mostly using "DDU" over and over, not a strict "DDUDDUDU" eight quaver pattern. You'll notice he starts with a crotchet on a down stroke and the next quaver is an up stroke. There is a quaver's rest following the first note but George doesn't depart from the "DDU" pattern, the second note (3rd quaver) is an up stroke.

Try these exercises while holding a partial G chord on the second third and fourth strings (i.e., xx543x bass to treble).

1. "DDU" (a) Play the two measure pattern "DDUDDUDDUDDUDDU-" across those three strings where the last quaver "-" is a rest. Stay on this step until you can do it smoothly (not necessarily quickly) with a metronome. You'll be playing twice as many beats as the metronome.
   
   
2. "DDU" (b) Play the same exercise but every second time you strike the second string drop your pinky onto the 5th fret (i.e., xx545x). No need to lift your index finger from the third fret. Again, work with a metronome.
   
   
3. "DDU" (c) Play (b) as above but after playing the pattern completely one time, change your left hand fingering to a partial D7 chord (i.e., xx453x) by switching strings with your second and third fingers. Play the partial D7 just as you did the partial G adding the E note every second time using your pinky.
   
   
4. "DUDU" If you've mastered the previous exercises but haven't tried this technique before, it's going to feel strange even though you're accustomed to strict DUDU flatpicking. Go through the previous exercises but this time adhere strictly to a DUDU... pick direction. Down strokes are always on odd numbered quavers, up strokes are always on even numbered quavers. If you play a quaver of rest, you'll probably want to move your pick silently above the strings just so your hand doesn't lose the feel of the DUDU... pattern. You will find yourself playing a down stroke on the second (B) string followed by an up stroke on the fourth (D) string and each time you strike a string it will be in a different direction than the last time you struck it.

These exercises are easy to learn but hard to master. By the time you've mastered them, you'll be able to crosspick just about any tune you already know.

You'll have the best results using a heavy pick that doesn't flex when you use it. It should be held vertically or perhaps leaned slightly so the wide end of the pick is slightly ahead of the working end. Also angle it slightly so the edge of your pick that's closest to the fingerboard hits the string first. You may even want to sand and polish a small bevel where the pick strikes the string. Of course you can buy picks with the bevel already there.

To hold the pick, hold your hand out as though you were gripping a vertical post a couple of centimeters in diameter. Place the pick on the side of your index finger so the pick is horizontal and the point of the pick points away at ninety degrees to the surface of your fingernail. Now lay your thumb down on the pick so that the thumb's first joint is at the near edge of the pick and the tip of your thumb extends well beyond the far edge.

Do not hold the pick between the pads of thumb and forefinger. Never mind what George does in the video in this respect.

Do not get a "death grip" on the pick. Hold it naturally so your hand may relax while you play.

Picking motion will come from your wrist, from the flexing of your thumb and forefinger together, and (less so) from your forearm.

Fingers two, three and four of your picking hand should be relaxed and slightly bent. They may lightly touch the surface of your guitar to act as a guide for pick depth but under no circumstances should you "plant" these fingers on the top as a brace for picking.

Do not allow the heel of your picking hand to rest on the bridge or bridge pins.

Good luck. And post back here to let me know how this goes.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: Help needed understanding Shuffler guitar styl
From: M.Ted
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 05:16 PM

There's a lot to work with there, Mark, and it's all good--as good as it gets, in fact! I have clipped your post and I've saved it as a stickie on my desktop--

A couple additional thoughts:

a)The "rest" is really important--often, the reason that people don't quite get the picking pattern is that they don't realize that the "rest" needs to be there.

b) a lot of players use both patterns--and even alternate them for effect--

c)they can be used with both open and closed position scales

d)they can be used with open and closed position chords

e) a lot of hot country and rock'n'roll licks are based on these patterns

f)simple to explain, but not easy to master--once you've got them down, though, you can do pretty much whatever you want

Subject: RE: Help needed understanding Shuffler guitar style
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 07:47 PM

mark ,that is very helpful,Ihave no trouble NO 4.
lets see if Ihave this right,
1.when Gorge picks a crotchet and a quaver,he picks down up with a quaver rest in between,so in effect he plays his quaver rest with adown stroke silently.
next for 1. you are suggesting playing three quavers DDU quaver rest,so you would count 1234,but play 123.
if Ihave this right Ihave to say youhave explained it really well,thanks again.

Subject: RE: Help needed understanding Shuffler guitar style
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 08:05 PM

mted, the rest is only important for the ddu picking,do ihave that right or is it important for both styles.

Subject: RE: Help needed understanding Shuffler guitar style
From: Mark Clark
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 01:30 PM

M.Ted, Thanks, that's high praise indeed. And thanks for the additional but very important thoughts.

Captain Birdseye:
The pattern I tried to explain in nos. 1 - 3 above is sixteen quavers or eighth notes (two measures or bars) long and only the final quaver is a rest. The down-down-up (DDU) pattern repeats without variation save the final quaver rest. You're playing a pattern of three pick strokes against eight quavers so the beginning stroke (and the accent) will change with each new bar. Five repetitions of a three quaver pattern is fifteen quavers. Add a quaver of rest and you've completed two bars of music.

The Carter Family song Will You Miss Me When I'm Gone as played by Ralph Stanley's band in the early 1970s is often played using G chords with a capo being used to achieve the keys of A or B to match the singer's range. The first four bars of the guitar break might be played as follows:

    Q=148
    G
   4/4
    Q  E E E E E E   E E E E E E E E   E E E E E E E E   Q  Q  Q  Q
  |----3-----------|-----------------|---------3-----3-|------------|
  |----------0-----|-0-----0-----0---|---0---0-----0---|------------|
  |--------0-----0-|-----0-----0-----|-0---0-----0-----|-0-----4--2-|
  |-0----0-----0---|---2-----0-----0h|=2---------------|------------|
  |----------------|-----------------|-----------------|------------|
  |----------------|-----------------|-----------------|------------|
    d  u d d u d d   u d d u d d u d   d u d d u d d u   d     d  d
  

Where "Q" indicates a crochet and "E" a quaver. I've noted the pick direcdtion below the tab example.

If you're interested in becoming more accomplished in the Shuffler-Napier style, you might wish to know that Flatpicking Guitar Magazine is offering an "End of Summer" special price on the Clinch Mountain Guitar DVD I cited above together with the magazine issue that featured James Alan Shelton. The combined price is only $22.00 USD with an option to buy the audio recording of the tabs in the magazine issue. I haven't personally seen these items but their material is generally high quality and would certainly be a valuable aid in learning the style.

Good luck.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: Help needed understanding Shuffler guitar style
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 01:54 PM

thanks,you are very helpful.

Subject: RE: Help needed understanding Shuffler guitar styl
From: M.Ted
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 09:10 AM

Here is another example-Josep Traver Crosspicking Forward/Backward Roll it gives more sense of how it fits in--

One thing that may help, (or possibly confuse you even more)--this, a bottom, is a jazz rhythm--very close to "In the Mood"--It is a kind of "Time Step" for bluegrass, and the "rest" at the end of the phrase essentially allows you to shift weight back to where it needs to be to begin the phrase.

Subject: RE: Help needed understanding Shuffler guitar style
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 09:32 AM

m ted.so it looks like 3213,1231,ddud uudu, do I have the down up picking wrong.
the backward roll looks like this duuduudu31231231.
MArk Clark.tried to order last night and somer problem with website

Subject: RE: Help needed understanding Shuffler guitar styl
From: M.Ted
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 10:54 AM

It's hard to tell how it actually sounds, but I think you've got the right idea. I posted the link because it shows how the pattern can be extended, and also because he does it slow, then fast--you don't need to get into the backward roll til you've got other one down.

Learning this strum or picking pattern, or whatever you want to call it, is not easy. You can't just listen to the music and figure it out, and you can't just follow the picking directions and have it come out right.

You have to have the feel for what it's supposed to sound like, then you apply the picking pattern and sooner or later, you work it out. I feel your pain--like I said, it isn't easy--

In the interest of full disclosure, I'm not really an active bluegrass player (but I did spend a year as the rhythm guitarist in a bluegrass stage band) so my chops are pretty raggedy--even fuller disclosure, my chops all around are pretty raggedy, because I haven't performed in a long time.

Subject: RE: Help needed understanding Shuffler guitar styl
From: pdq
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 11:10 AM

In an effort to expand this topic and gain a few more participants, can we get a useable definition for the following:

flatpicking:

bluegrass guitar (playing):

crosspicking:

roll (as applied to banjo and guitar playing):

Subject: RE: Help needed understanding Shuffler guitar style
From: Mark Clark
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 03:41 PM

M.Ted, Great example and great advice.

pdq, Trying to define terms here is an exercise often fraught with peril. There are always folks who don't want their belief systems disturbed and loudly insist that what they've always believed is in fact holy (wholly?) truth. Still, I'll give it a quick try.

• flatpicking: I'd say the term means the use of a flat plectrum to play intricate lead or melody lines on a six-string acoustic guitar normally in standard tuning. Pop and rock guitarists often use a flat plectrum or pick as well but their work is not normally described as flatpicking. I think an acoustic guitar is required to meet the definition.
  
  Sometimes jazz players using an acoustic guitar (e.g., Django Reinhardt) are described as flatpicking their instruments.
  
  I'm not sure I'd say that bluegrass rhythm necessarily fits the definition. Bluegrass rhythm is most often done using a flatpick today but it was originally done using a thumbpick and a fingerpick and could still be done that way today. Of course some great flatpickers also play rhythm in between solos and incorporate more complex work in their rhythm than could be accomplished with a thumbpick.
  
  
• bluegrass guitar: Bluegrass music is more of a genre than a technique. The techniques are constantly evolving and changing. A lot of well known flatpickers play old-time country tunes, jazz or even pop when they perform. Bluegrass is ensemble music with a particular rhythmic feel and blues emphasis. We had a long discussion some years back about what is bluegrass in a thread called The Genealogy of Bluegrass. About half way down, you'll find this definition of bluegrass:

  The term bluegrass, referring to a particular style of American country music, is derived from the band name of its progenitor, Bill Monroe and his Blue Grass Boys. Proud of being a Kentuckian, Monroe named his band for "The Blue Grass State." Bluegrass music is acoustic ensemble country music characterized by driving rhythms, separate and distinct parts for each instrument and voice, improvised solos and strident high harmony singing with the tenor often placed a fifth above the lead or melody voice. The primary instruments found in bluegrass music are fiddle, mandolin, 5-string banjo and Dobro (resophonic guitar played with a slide) with guitar and double bass added for a rhythm section. Occasionally, a second guitar is added as a lead instrument. A uniquely bluegrass style of playing has evolved for each of the instruments that is generally distinct from the way that instrument is used in other musical styles. Created in 1945, bluegrass music draws heavily on older forms including blues, jazz and the earlier string band music of the Southern Appalachian Mountains. Today, bluegrass music is played in countries all around the world with a faithfulness to the original form that is ofen astonishing.

  
  Others added to that definition in the thread but most folks agreed that it filled the bill.
  
  In bluegrass music, the guitar fills out the sound and provides rhythm. The rhythm isn't done using heavy chords but primarily with heavy moving bass notes. The rhythm guitar must be loud, and mellow with an emphasis on the bass. A high quality Dreadnought model is normally used. A bluegrass lead guitar is often less resonant but must also be loud. High quality Dreadnought models with Mahogany back and sides are often used here.
  
  
• crosspicking: That is what we are describing in this thread. It is a flatpicking technique in which the pick is used to play a pattern of eighth notes on (usually three) adjacent strings. But the strings need not be adjacent and as M.Ted has described, the patterns will be changed and moved throughout a tune.
  
  
• roll: This term actually comes from five-string banjo terminology. A crosspicking pattern is rhythmically similar to a three-finger "roll" on the banjo. So the various patterns employed in crosspicking are also referred to as rolls.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: Help needed understanding Shuffler guitar styl
From: pdq
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 06:29 PM

Noble effort there, Mr. Clark. Much appreciated.

Here is the one which (quietly) disturbs my belief system and was the reason for the definition request: crosspicking. I have understood that the use of adjacent strings and an DUDUDUDU was conventional "flatpicking" al la Django, Don Reno and (most of) Doc Watson's work, and that it became the subset "crosspicking" when you skipped over adjacent strings to sound those two or more strings away.

The DDUDDUDU pattern was just one Clerence White liked and other patterns were used and constantly varied in most songs. That pattern and jumping over adjacent strings is definitely "crosspicking" by anybody's definition, but not necessarily the only version. This is just an effort to define terms and understand things better, and is in no way an attempt to disagree.

Subject: RE: Help needed understanding Shuffler guitar styl
From: M.Ted
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 11:56 PM

DUDUDUDU picking is fairly new--it was really popularized by studio players, such as Tommy Tedesco and Howard Roberts--the old plectrum style of picking the guitar was based on downstrokes, with up and down movement reserved for tremolo--this because before amplification, it was the only way to get the required volume--

I've heard "crosspicking" used to describe a couple of other devices, but in this case, it is the name that George Shuffler uses for his mechanism, which, as he explains it, is played on three adjacent strings, but can easily be stretched to others for effect.

Subject: RE: Help needed understanding Shuffler guitar style
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 04:49 AM

yes, and crosspicking on the tenor banjo is related but something different again,some tutors suggest dududu,for picking reels and hornpipes,but dud dud for six quavers in jig time or d d for two adjacent strings,and or other combinations,[which become known as crosspicking:sometimes its udd etc]

Subject: RE: Help needed understanding Shuffler guitar style
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 08:57 AM

The link below leads to a website where "Wildwood Flower" is demonstrated in both Carter style picking and crosspicking. Check it out, it is rather interesting.

Link to guitar tab

Subject: RE: Help needed understanding Shuffler guitar styl
From: M.Ted
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 12:06 PM

Tunesmith posted that tantalizing link to a Clarence White clip, and Tony Rice has been mentioned above, so i figured we ought to include an example from Dan Crary playing in the DUDUDUDU mode--he was about the first solo "flatpicker" I was aware of--and was a great influence on guitar players who wanted to play bluegrass--

I am leading up to the idea that, far from being "traditional", even in terms of bluegrass, "flatpicking" is a work in progress. No matter which picking pattern you start with, you have to expand your range, and grab techniques where you find them in order to develop the range of options that are needed to be a full fledged soloist.

Subject: RE: Help needed understanding Shuffler guitar styl
From: pdq
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 12:59 PM

"...the old plectrum style of picking the guitar was based on downstrokes..."

Well, that sure puts things a perspective. Actually, many trad players used an "up" stroke on "pickup" or "grace notes", but the basic technique does seem to be "down".

I pulled out some Doc Watson last night and, clear back to the "Tom" Ashley days, and Doc plays a relentless DUDUDUDU rhythm style and clearly does so on breaks, although they are not as sophisticated as his later work. Doc told young player that wanted to copy his technique to work on the upstroke especially. The goal was to have identical weight and tone on both so that they became impossible to tell apart.

Subject: RE: Help needed understanding Shuffler guitar style
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 01:22 PM

this is fascinating for me,
because I based a lot of my melody style playing on the concertina,on playing melody where i could,even if it was on the off beat.,which didnt matter because I was singing,if I played the melody on the second half of a crotchet,on the break.,it sounded good if the harmony note preceded,or followed it
but I based my ideas on the Piedmont style of finger picking.,but its all music.,and not far removed friom crosspicking.

Subject: RE: Help needed understanding Shuffler guitar style
From: Mark Clark
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 02:53 PM

M.Ted, You're quite right, there's nothing “traditional” about bluegrass flatpicking. George Shuffler and Bill Napier were probably the first to do it, followed closely by Doc Watson and Clarence White.

When bluegrass music was first heard (1945-46) there was no lead guitar work at all, just rhythm. (And most of that was done with a thumbpick.) Earl Scruggs did some lead guitar work with Flatt & Scruggs in the 1950s but he was adapting his banjo rolls to guitar, it wasn't flatpicking.

Flatpicking started to catch hold in the 1960s and every major player has added something to ideas developed so far. If you listen to the latest crop of flatpickers, you realized that innovation still continues.

      - Mark