Marina Russell of Upwey-New information

Subject: Marina Russell of Upwey-New information
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 28 Apr 15 - 09:45 AM

I was 29 years old when Martin Carthy encouraged me to do some research into the life of Marina Russell I am 63 this year and finally completed the story and solved the mystery of her final resting place.
I've traced Marina alive and well living in Bincombe in 1911 There is no doubt it's her. There is a burial in Bincombe church of an 83 year old Mrs. Russell but her name has been put down as Marion and that was in 1915. There are no Marions any where in the area before this one entry. It's an obvious mistake and it's got to be Marina. No wonder we couldn't find her. She was christened Mary Anne Sartin, and if her children told the Doctor who wrote out the death cert. 'She was known as Marina but her real name was Mary Anne' it is not beyond the bounds of credibility that he heard it as Marion. She had moved to 241 Ridgeway so that explains her dissappearance from the Upwey cencus. She went back to Bincombe where she was happy with her husband and raised some of her children. It's so obvious now! It never occured to me that she might have moved from Upwey after the Hammond Brothers visited her. Their description of her led me to believe that she was frail and would not last long. In fact she was good for another 7 or 8 years, God bless her.
I finally stand a chance of standing in front of Marina's grave after several decades of wondering where she is resting, and just saying thank you for the songs, and the wonderful reward I received from my years in Dorset, dedicated to her memory. I am contacting the Russell family descendants to tell them the news today.

Subject: RE: Marina Russell of Upwey-New information
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 28 Apr 15 - 11:20 AM

Paul Sartin will be interested in this ...
Derek

Subject: RE: Marina Russell of Upwey-New information
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 28 Apr 15 - 11:32 AM

On the list.

Subject: RE: Marina Russell of Upwey-New information
From: michaelr
Date: 28 Apr 15 - 06:42 PM

So what did she do in her lifetime?

Subject: RE: Marina Russell of Upwey-New information
From: Vic Smith
Date: 29 Apr 15 - 12:44 PM

So what did she do in her lifetime?
A synopsis of the show about her life reads:-

Following in the footsteps of the great song collector, Cecil Sharp, in 1905 the HAMMOND BROTHERS, Henry & Robert, set off on their bikes to scour Dorset for songs. In three months they recorded 193 songs and discovered a wealth of excellent singers with amazing repertoires. Henry wrote the music while Robert noted the words.
During their travels they came upon Mrs Marina Russell of Upwey. Despite the fact she was well into her 70's by 1905, she sung them 84 songs at their first visit and another 18 in 1907. There were love songs, songs of mystery and magic, see songs, parting songs and many more. They were songs she had learnt throughout her life. And what a life!
She was born in Corscombe in 1833, daughter of stone mason, James Sartin. In her teens she was employed in the glove making trade until her marriage to Charles Russell. This was the time of the great agricultural depression, just after the Swing Riots and the Tolpuddle Martyrs. Certainly not the best time to be married to a farm labourer: But this she was. Having married Charles, under a background of extreme poverty, she struggled to bring up 11 children. She lived in Upwey between 1871 until 1908 and during this time suffered the loss of her husband and two children. Alone, tolerating great toil and hardship, she not only brought up her remaining children but also the illegitimate child of her daughter. Despite this great feat of endurance she continued to sing, and it was this passion that finally ensured her place in the annals of musical history and gave her the recognition she deserved.

Songs that have become standards in folk clubs from her singing include -
Ye Mariners All
The Bedmaking
Catch-Me-If-You-Can
The Crafty Maid's Policy

Farewell Dearest Nancy
John White
Madam, Madam I'm Come A-Courting
The Man Of Dover
Molly And William

Subject: RE: Marina Russell of Upwey-New information
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 29 Apr 15 - 03:50 PM

Nick,
The new edition of 'Wanton Seed' is due out next month. If the powers that be decree, we will start work ASAP on the 3rd volume 'The Constant Lovers'. When we started the new editions it was the intention to concentrate on the lives of the singers in this volume so I'll probably be getting back to you if this comes to pass. Well done!

Subject: RE: Marina Russell of Upwey-New information
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 29 Apr 15 - 05:47 PM

Thanks Steve. I'll see you in Sheffield next month I hope.

Subject: RE: Marina Russell of Upwey-New information
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 26 Mar 23 - 07:54 PM

I've revived this old thread to let you know that more information has come to light on WikiTree. All of Marina's children have been traced and some of their descendants have. This is the result of the Living Tradition article that I wrote being posted online.
We started this research 40 years ago the old-fashioned way, by hands-on research. As you might imagine I am quite pleased.

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Sartin-374

Subject: RE: Marina Russell of Upwey-New information
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 26 Mar 23 - 11:38 PM

Thanks for reviving this thread, Nick, is she UK's greatest source of songs with 102 songs?

One of our major sources, Sally Sloane gave us around 150 songs & tunes, but I'm not qualified to go thru the list & sort them!

Subject: RE: Marina Russell of Upwey-New information
From: GUEST,Dick Miles
Date: 27 Mar 23 - 02:48 AM

Well done Nick.
In answer to that question, Harry Cox also had a huge repertoire of around 150 songs.

Subject: RE: Marina Russell of Upwey-New information
From: GUEST,Dick Miles
Date: 27 Mar 23 - 02:51 AM

Walter Pardon is said to have known at least 182 songs.

Subject: RE: Marina Russell of Upwey-New information
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 27 Mar 23 - 03:52 AM

thanks, Dick

Subject: RE: Marina Russell of Upwey-New information
From: Rigby
Date: 27 Mar 23 - 04:41 AM

Henry Burstow claimed to have known 420 songs!

Subject: RE: Marina Russell of Upwey-New information
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 27 Mar 23 - 05:01 AM

The Size of collected songs in no way belittles the importance of her as a singer IMO

Subject: RE: Marina Russell of Upwey-New information
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 27 Mar 23 - 05:42 AM

Here is the full story if you would like some more information. Courtesy of Orpington Folk Club.

https://www.orpingtonfolkclub.org.uk/Interviews_&_Articles/Articles/002.html

Subject: RE: Marina Russell of Upwey-New information
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 28 Mar 23 - 10:24 AM

Very good, and great to see the source singers treated as people.

Subject: RE: Marina Russell of Upwey-New information
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 28 Mar 23 - 11:16 AM

My big bugbear for decades! Agreed.

Subject: RE: Marina Russell of Upwey-New information
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 28 Mar 23 - 02:00 PM

Excellent research all round. Martin should know. Does he, Nick?

Subject: RE: Marina Russell of Upwey-New information
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 28 Mar 23 - 03:28 PM

I emailed him a while ago but had no reply.

Subject: RE: Marina Russell of Upwey-New information
From: GUEST,Phil Edwards
Date: 22 Feb 24 - 09:47 AM

Although the ballad itself is far from unique to her, Marina Russell's tune for The Demon Lover ("Well met, well met") is astonishing; she'd have earnt a place in the books if that was the only song she sang. (Just sung it, or rather wrestled with it - it's one of those tunes that you really know when you've sung!)

Subject: RE: Marina Russell of Upwey-New information
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 22 Feb 24 - 10:12 AM

Nice one, Phil. Are you going to put it on Youtube or other?

Subject: RE: Marina Russell of Upwey-New information
From: Reinhard
Date: 22 Feb 24 - 11:15 AM

Brian Peters' The Demon Lover sung to Marina Russell's tune is on YouTube. (Note that the poster Reynard the Fox is not me ;-)

Subject: RE: Marina Russell of Upwey-New information
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 23 Feb 24 - 09:04 AM

I've made a mental note, R, but that will no doubt have gone by tomorrow:-)

Subject: RE: Marina Russell of Upwey-New information
From: GUEST,Phil Edwards
Date: 26 Aug 24 - 07:07 AM

I'm visiting Weymouth later in the year, and I've just realised that this would enable me to visit Upwey & Bincombe. If Nick drops by this thread, could he let us know if he ever did visit Bincombe Church, and if he found Mrs Russell's grave?

Subject: RE: Marina Russell of Upwey-New information
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 26 Aug 24 - 10:46 AM

Yes Nigel Canter found it. It's an unmarked grave directly under the large tree to the right as you face the church. There is not much to see, but at least we have found her. The problem was she was buried under the name of Marianne Russell not Mary Anne her actual birth name. Marina was a name that was given to her in her early childhood. To get to Bincombe take the Upwey turn off and turn right rather than left. Then when you have finished your visit turn round and head for the Ship pub for your lunch (car park up the small road to your right) and then Upwey church and the wishing well if you have time. Give all our blessing.
Nick and Mally

Subject: RE: Marina Russell of Upwey-New information
From: GUEST,Liz The Squeak
Date: 12 Jun 25 - 07:19 AM

Sorry to burst a few bubbles here, but I've spent the best part of a fortnight going through Corscombe parish registers and census returns looking for Marina Russell nee Sartin, and her "sister" or "sister in law" Edith Sartin nee Frampton.

Firstly - her name really is Marina. I can find no official records that list her as Mary Ann. Her name has been poorly transcribed as Ninna (the curse of cursive lettering - bane of the Genealogists' life) and Marian, but never Mary Ann.

There was a Mary Ann Sartin baptised in Corscombe in Feb 1832, daughter of James Sartin and Jane Park, but if you look a little further down the register, there is the baptism in August 1833 of Marina Sartin, daughter of James and Martha. They can both be seen quite clearly in the 1841 Census; Mary Ann is living with her parents in a farmstead called Brookwood, whilst Marina and her parents are at a hamlet called Norwood, all within the boundaries of Corscombe parish. Mary Ann Sartin never married, was listed in 1871 as an agricultural labourer. She died in 1877.

Secondly - Edith Sartin was not born a Sartin, she married William Sartin, brother of Mary Ann. Edith was baptised in West Chelborough - a hamlet to the east of Corscombe, in 1834. She also appears in the 1841 Census living with her siblings and parents Thomas Frampton and Jane Gale, in a farmstead called Lafterlains, now known as Lovelands. The confusion of Marina for the Mary Ann who was William Sartin's sister is probably where the confusion has arisen.

The common ancestors of William and Marina Sartin is 3x great grandparents John Sartin (born in 1675 and spelled Sertaine) and his wife Mary Bunn (born in 1671). This makes them 4th cousins. Edith Frampton, in marrying William Sartin becomes a 4th cousin by marriage.

That's a very basic summary of the relationship between Marina Russell and Edith Sartin, and an explanation for the name changes.

LTS - yes, rumours of my demise have been greatly exaggerated!

Subject: RE: Marina Russell of Upwey-New information
From: GUEST,LTS
Date: 12 Jun 25 - 08:11 AM

Because this bit of research made my entire year:

Marina Sartin's grandmother was Rose Dunford, who married Samuel Cornick. Their daughter Martha Cornick married James Sartin and was Marina's mother.

Rose Dunford is my first cousin, 6 times removed. Her granddaughter, Marina Sartin is my third cousin, 4 times removed... our common ancestor seems to be John Dunford, my 7times great grandfather, Marina's 2times great grandfather.

I share a little bit of DNA with Marina Russell!!

As a side note, one of Marina's sisters, Caroline married George Riggs born in 1816 in Cheselbourne, Dorset. George is my second cousin 5times removed.

LTS - very excited - I'm related to 5 Tolpuddle Martyrs AND Marina Russell!!

Subject: RE: Marina Russell of Upwey-New information
From: Nick Dow
Date: 12 Jun 25 - 11:28 AM

Well done Liz as ever. So what about the Marianne Russell buried in Bincombe1917? Is that our Marina as I thought? I think you need to tell Bonny and Joe and Will and Pat March, or if you prefer I will, if I've got it wrong. Thanks again.

Subject: RE: Marina Russell of Upwey-New information
From: keberoxu
Date: 16 Jun 25 - 07:14 PM

Grand to see LTS back, if only as a "guest".

Subject: RE: Marina Russell of Upwey-New information
From: GUEST,Jeff Roe
Date: 23 Jun 25 - 06:32 AM

Well done

Subject: RE: Marina Russell of Upwey-New information
From: GUEST,LTS still not dead
Date: 30 Jun 26 - 10:13 AM

For those interested - The "Marianne Russell" buried at Bincombe is very likely Marina - the register entry states Buried: 1915 Jan 26; Marion        RUSSELL; Bincombe {aged} 83. In 1911, the Census shows us that she is lives in Ridgeway, in a two-roomed house with a postal address of Bincombe, and has no occupation. She died in the early weeks of 1915, probably around the 20th-23rd and was buried at Bincombe on 26 January, in an unmarked grave, under the large tree to the right of the path to the main church door.

Perhaps someone should start a petition/collection to make a headstone for her - I'm sure EFDSS would sponsor it, and I know a local stone-mason who makes grave markers from local materials.... It doesn't need to be accurate, just something like 'Near this spot lie the remains of Marina Russell 1834-1915, a major contributor to the English Folk Song Revival.'

LTS

Subject: RE: Marina Russell of Upwey-New information
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 30 Jun 26 - 10:36 AM

Great idea, Liz. Well done with the research. It would be good to have a comprehensive family tree deposited at the VWML.

Subject: RE: Marina Russell of Upwey-New information
From: Nick Dow
Date: 30 Jun 26 - 08:01 PM

I've stood in front of her grave some years ago. Thanks again Liz. I would love to see a marker. VWML have already got your research. Josie Sommer is dealing with it.

Subject: RE: Marina Russell of Upwey-New information
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 01 Jul 26 - 06:12 AM

Let us know if there's to be a collection to pay for the stone.

Subject: RE: Marina Russell of Upwey-New information
From: Nick Dow
Date: 01 Jul 26 - 07:07 AM

Things are a bit busy at the moment but I'll get on to it soon.

Subject: RE: Marina Russell of Upwey-New information
From: Nick Dow
Date: 02 Jul 26 - 03:04 AM

I have contacted Pat March (Mrs R's relative), and they are in favour. I have also asked Liz to ask her stone mason for a price. I'll get back to this thread when I know more.

Subject: RE: Marina Russell of Upwey-New information
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 02 Jul 26 - 09:37 AM

All good news. I will have to approach the appropriate people but if all goes ahead Liz tells me we need £3-4k and she has supplied a contact for the stonemason. I will pass all this to Pat, and when I have time start the ball rolling. I will come back here and ask advice for fund raising. I am thinking enough to pay for the memorial, arrange a short ceremony and hire a room locally for a right good sing with some nosh afterwards. Maybe in The Ship at Upwey. Time will tell.

Subject: RE: Marina Russell of Upwey-New information
From: GUEST,LTS
Date: 02 Jul 26 - 10:51 AM

That sounds fab Nick! Especially the right good sing afterwards!

LTS - looking for any excuse to go home for a week!

Subject: RE: Marina Russell of Upwey-New information
From: Nick Dow
Date: 02 Jul 26 - 11:37 AM

I have been warned that the permission from the Chuch and Diocese may take a long time to obtain. Undeterred onward and upward.

Subject: RE: Marina Russell of Upwey-New information
From: Nick Dow
Date: 02 Jul 26 - 02:08 PM

This is what we are required to do...

Because the grave is historical and currently unmarked, a local vicar cannot simply sign off on it. You must apply for a formal legal document called a Faculty from the Consistory Court of the Diocese of Salisbury. As part of this legal process, a public notice must be pinned to the church door for 28 days to give anyone (including other potential descendants) a chance to object.
The Diocese of Salisbury strictly regulates what monuments look like to preserve the historical setting of churchyards. You cannot use polished black granite, bright white marble, or concrete. You must choose unpolished, matte-finish local stones such as Purbeck stone, Portland stone, or Nabresina limestone. The headstone must be a traditional rectangular shape with straight or simple curved tops. Sculptures, large crosses, and statues are strictly prohibited. The wording must be respectful, factual, and consistent with Christian theology. You cannot use nicknames or secular quotes without special court approval. Churchyard safety laws forbid you from installing a grave marker yourself.
...and it makes me even more determined. This is going to happen one way or another.

Subject: RE: Marina Russell of Upwey-New information
From: GUEST,LTS trying again...
Date: 02 Jul 26 - 06:11 PM

Getting EFDSS involved might help things along with the historical side, a formal request from them to the Diocese would lend some gravitas.

LTS

Subject: RE: Marina Russell of Upwey-New information
From: Nick Dow
Date: 02 Jul 26 - 07:35 PM

I'll have a word with Josie.

Subject: RE: Marina Russell of Upwey-New information
From: Nick Dow
Date: 03 Jul 26 - 09:20 AM

I have Emailed the authorities in Weymouth, and will contact the Salisbury diocese, so I will post when and if I get a reply.

Subject: RE: Marina Russell of Upwey-New information
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 03 Jul 26 - 11:47 AM

Nick,
I come on here only sporadically. When you're ready to start collecting money please post to the TSF list.
Richard

Subject: RE: Marina Russell of Upwey-New information
From: Nick Dow
Date: 03 Jul 26 - 12:00 PM

Thank you, Richard. James Eagle of Folk London has kindly offered to help set up donations. As soon as I get the go-ahead, I'll let everybody know.

Subject: RE: Marina Russell of Upwey-New information
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 03 Jul 26 - 12:19 PM

Any more links to modern performances of her songs?

Subject: RE: Marina Russell of Upwey-New information
From: Nick Dow
Date: 03 Jul 26 - 04:43 PM

Plenty more where these came from
https://www.google.com/search?q=ye+mariners+all+&sca_esv=3f4266fc222e9222&udm=7&biw=1200&bih=593&sxsrf=APpeQnvlR15O4QKPHB_dp1E1Y

https://www.google.com/search?q=One+night+as+I+lay+on+my+bed&sca_esv=3f4266fc222e9222&udm=7&biw=1200&bih=593&sxsrf=APpeQnu4735et
https://www.google.com/search?q=The+bedmaking&sca_esv=3f4266fc222e9222&udm=7&biw=1200&bih=593&sxsrf=APpeQnu4735etRBW2Yuw8YpZO1Qn

https://www.google.com/search?q=Fare+thee+well+cold+winter&sca_esv=3f4266fc222e9222&udm=7&biw=1200&bih=593&sxsrf=APpeQnvee6rZLnL

Subject: RE: Marina Russell of Upwey-New information
From: GUEST,LTS
Date: 05 Jul 26 - 08:44 AM

Ten years ago, there was a suggestion of a plaque to her in the church, did this ever happen?

LTS

Subject: RE: Marina Russell of Upwey-New information
From: Nick Dow
Date: 05 Jul 26 - 09:57 AM

No.

Subject: RE: Marina Russell of Upwey-New information
From: Nick Dow
Date: 07 Jul 26 - 04:45 PM

No reply so far. I'll give it to the end of the week then start making phone calls.