Archive Recordings Lost Forever

Subject: Archive Recordings Lost Forever
From: Alan Day
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 03:13 PM

I have been busy this last two Years compiling collections of concertina recordings which include archive recordings.I am certain that if this project had been started a few years later much of the wonderful archive playing of past masters of the instrument would be lost.The reason for this is the disintegration of the recording tape used years ago.Many of the old recordings were so distorted they could not be played.If you have valuable archive recordings in your collections please do something about it.Get them onto CD or make another recording to preserve them.It is no good ten Years time wishing that you had done something,please do it now, it is important for whatever instrument you play.
Al

Subject: RE: Archive Recordings Lost Forever
From: Big Mick
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 03:20 PM

Alan, that is incredibly valuable information. Be sure you speak with tech's about this. I don't pretend to be a pro, but I have heard that in the case of old, degraded tapes, they can be heated in an oven, and then played one time. I believe that is how they saved some of Art Thieme's.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: Archive Recordings Lost Forever
From: Joe Offer
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 03:49 PM

I'm wondering what is the best way to archive recordings. Burning them onto CD may be an invitation to disaster, because CD's deteriorate after a number of years. Maybe the best solution is to save recordings as high-quality MP3's and keep a backup on an external hard trive - and replace that hard drive every few years.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: Archive Recordings Lost Forever
From: Big Mick
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 03:56 PM

Sounds like a good plan, Joe. But I think that I would consider keeping copy in online services as well. I would hate to have any storage of valuable or irreplacable data destroyed in a fire or flood.

Mick

Subject: RE: Archive Recordings Lost Forever
From: johnadams
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 04:10 PM

The baking of tapes to stabilise the oxide is a specialist job. I've just sent some of mine up to UK's North West Sound Archive to be dealt with.

Archiving to mp3 is not the best idea as it is a lossy compression process with the emphasis on the loss. Although they sound OK, when you try and copy them later, there is a significant degradation.

The Paul Graney Archive was archived to 44.1K 32 bit WAV files, twice the quality of a CD. The archive medium is DVD and the longevity of that is questionable. I have the original digital media on hard drives (2.5 terrabytes) and will probably raise some funding to copy the lot across to new media in the next decade. In the meantime, I just have to hope that the server behaves, we don't have a fire, etc.

One way to help preserve the recordings is to share them. There's nothing like sending them into the ether to ensure that they echo around for years to come. I know there are copyright issues sometimes but .......

Johnny Adams
Paul Graney Project

Subject: RE: Archive Recordings Lost Forever
From: GUEST,Scoville at Dad's
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 04:17 PM

Oh, man--there isn't really a good answer for this one. I've heard of the baking process, too, but we haven't had to do it with any of the tapes at work (I work in an archive). My bosses are still firmly in the cassette tape camp and I realize that CD's and MP3's are still risky, but I, personally, don't see that there is a "best answer" right now.

The argument that my supervisor makes is that CD and CD player technology runs the risk of becoming obsolete, but I don't see how that doesn't apply to cassette and tape deck (VHS, whatever) technology, also. Tape decks do wear out. Tapes can get crud in them and stick, or can be magnetized and erased by accident.

I've still got stuff on cassette and have been converting to digital but keeping the cassettes. Hopefully somebody will come up with something more reliable soon.

Subject: RE: Archive Recordings Lost Forever
From: JudyB
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 05:10 PM

We back up our computers (including the music we've recorded) to external hard drives that are stored off site (in a relative's house). Probably don't back up as often as we should, but we do strongly support the concept of keeping at least one generation of backups far enough away that it shouldn't be caught in the same disaster as our house.

Subject: RE: Archive Recordings Lost Forever
From: open mike
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 05:12 PM

I am setting up an audio/video studio to be able to do this conversion
work. I am hoping to soon be equipped to transfer 78's, LP's, reel-to-reel, cassettes to C.D. and also 8mm movie and VHS to DVD.
(i do not mean the type that requires projector..but HI-8 cam-corder)
I also have DAT equipment...which was a short-lived format..
Digital Audio Tape. It was a very high quality recording medium
used for a short while..mostly by professionals.

I am not (yet) ramped up to be able to edit these, but
direct transfer is on the agenda.

Another mudcatter, Willy Hilly Billy (??) does this in the UK.
please excuse my poor memory of his "handle".

Maybe some day i will also be able to remove clicks, scratches, etc.

Subject: RE: Archive Recordings Lost Forever
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 05:15 PM

It sounds sensible to archive in as many different ways as possible so if anything happens to one, then the other alternatives will not be lost.
Persuading one of the online archives to host a copy would also seem to be a way to preserve the recordings.
Quack!
GtD.

Subject: RE: Archive Recordings Lost Forever
From: Alan Day
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 05:41 PM

I am not a specialist in these things, but there are a few important things to remember.When transfering recordings of tapes or old 78s keep the crackly or humming start that you get before the music starts.It is this section that is used for computer cleaning of the recordings.Dependant on how bad the recording is a lot of noise can be removed, but it will effect the final recording and there is a point at which you will get serious distortion of the instrument sound against noise reduction.It is a very fine dividing line.Most people will however put up with some background noise to appreciate playing at it's best and some will listen to some of the most dreadful recordings just to hear a snippet of a great old player.
Jim Ward who lives in Crawley Sussex specialises in cleaning up old 78s and I am going to sit down with him and pass on some of the information used in this process(he has agreed to this).I have spent a few hours with Jim and it certainly is a job which needs experience,he can hear and sort out distortion that I cannot hear.He can home in on a sound wave and point out a wiggle that looks to me the same as the wiggles before and after,straighten it out by hand and the distortion is gone.Scratch noises appear as a straight line (no wave) so they are easy to delete. Some of the records and recordings from the 1920s sound only a few years old after Jim's work.
These old 78s have a fairly deep groove,there are people who can provide a stylus which will play say half way up the groove where perhaps the old needles used were playing at the bottom of the groove
This can make a remarkable difference to the recording sound as can proper cleaning of the 78 before recording.
Al

Subject: RE: Archive Recordings Lost Forever
From: Bert
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 06:51 PM

I always thought that heat destroys magnetism, so baking would be an absolutely last resort.

Magnetic tapes suffer from self demagnetization which loses the high frequencies, and print through if they are left too long without being played. So record at the highest speed possible (so cassettes, at 1 7/8 ips, are out as a viable long term medium) on top quality tape and rewind it now and then. They only tape manufacturer that I ever had problems with was BASF - it was always breaking.

Computer back up tape is more permanent than home audio tape as it is usually high remanence but you're going to need keep the computer to play it.

I would say that the most permanent method available is the 78 or the LP. It is mechanical and if push comes to shove you can make a player

Be VERY careful about cleaning 78s. Modern cleaning solutions can dissolve the bloody things.

If you are considering hard drives then you should remember that they are also magnetic and the recordings should be backed up and checked regularly.

Subject: RE: Archive Recordings Lost Forever
From: johnadams
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 07:12 PM

Bert said:

"I always thought that heat destroys magnetism, so baking would be an absolutely last resort."

Excess heat demagnetises but the right amount of heat consolidates the oxide with minimal disruption of the magnetic signal. That's why it's a specialist job but it's only a matter of knowing the right temperature and having a bit of experience with different makes of tape etc. Yes, it's used as a once only solution to getting the the signal off the tape and onto another medium.

Subject: RE: Archive Recordings Lost Forever
From: katlaughing
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 07:39 PM

what about saving them to a "stick?" I don't know how much they will hold, but I have one plugged into an external port and save all of my photos and writings on it, on a regular basis. So far, it has not registered as "full."

open mike, it is Wilbyhillbilly and he does a great job.Glad yo mentioned him. He put my dad's cassette of music to CD for me.

I did some old cowboy 78's from a 1950's reel-to-reel and they turned out pretty good. The tapes had not been played in decades, but held up well as I played and recorded them to the harddrive. Did the same thing with my grandma telling stories and the rest of us singing from the 1950's, too.

Besides perserving what you already have, I am always bugging my friends to carry tape recorders with them, esp. when visiting older people. They have so much to share in stories and music. Someone will appreciate the time it takes to gather it all.:-)

Great thread, Alan. Thanks,

kat

Subject: RE: Archive Recordings Lost Forever
From: open mike
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 09:09 PM

rather than carrying tape recorders, mini disc recorders
might be the way to go.

or there is a whole generation of
mini recorders that can capture
sounds. they might be mp3..i am
not sure about all the new formats.

Subject: RE: Archive Recordings Lost Forever
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 09:19 PM

that was a doozie BigMick, bet a lot of catters missed that one...

Subject: RE: Archive Recordings Lost Forever
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 25 Nov 06 - 12:03 AM

I've got a machine that'll play vinyl in a format I can save on my computer, why is it much harder to find a cassette recorder/player that'll do the same thing?

I've got lots of tapes that really need converting as they're starting to degrade (hell, some of them are as nearly as old as me and I've been degraded for years!) as well as some that have been played to stretching point...

Anyone have any recommendations?

LTS

Subject: RE: Archive Recordings Lost Forever
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 25 Nov 06 - 02:39 AM

I disagree with Joe Offer - CD (or DVD) is a perfectly acceptable medium for archiving, provided you don't assume that it is forever and plan to re-transfer to another medium after a reasonable number of years. This could even be CD or DVD again, or whtever has replaced them by then, because they are so cheap, so cost need never be an issue.

I'd also like to reiterate the warning against MP3s for the reasons already stated. WAV of 44KHz should be the format.

But equally important to all that it indexing. Think about it. With the proliferation of cheap recording media, every man and his dog is archiving stuff for posterity. Much of it is crap, meaningful only to the archivist. Fifty years from now, when the creators of the archives have gone on to learn the harp in the Great Ceilidh, who will listen to all that stuff? We are talking information overload here, and a good, clear index using as standard a method and toold as possible would be invaluable for the inheritors of the "treasure" and for any researchers.

Open mike, as you are setting up a studio to provide an archiving service, you might also want to back this up with an indexing capability.

In any case - make sure those that follow can sort out the jumble of sounds you are archiving by providing them with an index. They'll be lighting a candle for you rather than curse you, if you do this.

Subject: RE: Archive Recordings Lost Forever
From: Alan Day
Date: 25 Nov 06 - 03:04 AM

I agree George about the importance of indexing.
I have had a situation recently where some wonderful archive concertina playing was found.Some of the best concertina playing I have ever heard,but the artist(s)name is unknown, the type of concertina being played is not certain.There is one person in the World who may know who this or those players are,but he cannot be found and may not even be alive.
(Maurice Harvey just in case he reads this).I have made a decision that these recordings are going to be used so others may hear them and be listed as unknown artists on the CD,but these recordings were only made in the fifties.
A number of people do research on artists,types of music,Music Hall etc and one hundred years from now someone will be jumping up and down with glee to find some of the stuff we now take for granted.
I must mention here the sound archives of The British Library who have a wonderful collection of old and new recordings and every effort should be made to support this cause.A copy of the CDs for the projects I am working on will be going FOC to the Library.If you are researching music ,start there.
Al

Subject: RE: Archive Recordings Lost Forever
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Nov 06 - 04:15 AM

When cleaning up recordings that are in danger of deteriorating - tapes, cassettes etc., try and keep two digitised copies, one unedited and one for present use.
Alan Day is perfectly correct in saying that any editing can affect the quality of the sound, even on the most expensive (Cedar?) equipment, but with the advance of technology, it may well be that in the not-to-distant future this will not be the case and you may do irreparable damage to precious recordings by editing them.
I agree with those who have suggested that recordings that are rare, important and of general interest, should be donated (copies) to an archive (the "if the bomb drops philosophy). We were lucky enough to be able to donate copies of our field recordings to The National Sound Archive at The British Library, The Irish Folklore Department (Dublin) and The Irish Traditional Music Archive, so if our house burns down tomorrow................
My heart went out to the man who spent hours recording the legendary fiddle player Padraig O'Keefe,and, realising their importance, carefully stored them in a metal box in a cupboard, only to find that when he opened the box all the coating had stripped off the tapes because he hadn't noticed a hot water pipe that ran through the cupboard.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Archive Recordings Lost Forever
From: nickp
Date: 25 Nov 06 - 05:51 AM

Re the comment earlier about deleting 'scratches' when you see them in you audio software - don't do this within music, especially if there are a lot - it will affect the apparent length of notes (not explaining this well but I guess you know what I mean). If the scratches are in talking or 'gaps between' it's less critical. I made the mistake of trimming out scratches once and ended up with something that sounded like a record jumping. Fortunately I still had the original and could start again. Now I just reduce the volume level of the scratch to match the surriounding (or a fraction lower).

Subject: RE: Archive Recordings Lost Forever
From: Bernard
Date: 25 Nov 06 - 06:31 AM

Writable DVDs and CDs are affected by light, so keeping them in the dark and at a constant temperature helps preserve them longer.

Re-writable DVDs and CDs are nigh useless for archiving, because the dyes used are of their very nature volatile. It's okay to use re-writables as a temporary master to make copies from, though.

I prefer to archive on a few external hard drives for safety, that way if one goes, the info is on another. As for indexing, I make sure the directory (sorry, folder!) name is meaningful, and there's a text file with each archive.

Although they are a bit slow, Netgear make an inexpensive housing for two IDE HDDs, which can be set up as a mirror array (what is on one drive is automatically copied to the other). It's the SC101, and is networked as opposed to USB or firewire. All my really important sfuff (the radio programme and my photos) are also stored on one of those with a pair of 300 gig drives installed... but it's nearly full now!

Despite what people have said above, I think keeping a set of MP3 archives in addition to other backups is valid, as they take up less room than WAVs... it's better to have MP3s than nowt!

As many have already mentioned, I never edit the original, only a copy. The same applies to photographs. It's also worth keeping different 'edits' so you can judge them in the cold light of day... somehow we can hear things differently whilst we're working on them, and think 'Why did I do that?!' afterwards!

It's worth noting that a good (archive) recording ought to be made 'flat' - with no EQ or effects. You can always add stuff afterwards, but you can't take it out!

As for scratch removal, I find the 'pencil' tool in Sound Forge works well, because you can 'draw' the wave form (with experience!), which means you are not only reducing the level, but you can take out the hard edges.

Quite often you will find a scratch on vinyl affects the left channel far more than the right, which is mainly down to the ballistics of the tone arm. But this affects how you deal with the scratch.

Another point when editing - the 'peaks and troughs' of the waveform matter a lot. If you don't take your edit points from 'null' to 'null', you can introduce scratch-like noise because there are hard edges where you've cut and paste. I mark the section, then look at each end and magnify so I can adjust the markers ever so slightly. More difficult on a stereo recording, of course, but rarely impossible.

Subject: RE: Archive Recordings Lost Forever
From: Alan Day
Date: 25 Nov 06 - 06:50 AM

In some cases it is possible to improve upon an artists original recording.On Anglo International the late Andrew Blakeny Edwards did a home recording that was obviously not for the general public to hear.It had a number of mistakes and I did not think it fair that it was issued like that,particularly as he was such a brilliant and precise player.With carefull editing (pinching a bit from where he does play correctly and inserting it into the mistake)it became an important addition to the collection.
Al

Subject: RE: Archive Recordings Lost Forever
From: Bernard
Date: 25 Nov 06 - 07:05 AM

Hah! I've done that so-o-o-o often!! ;o)

Somewhere I've got the original recording of a pre-rec telephone interview we did for BBC GMR, and I snipped 'yer know' no less than 27 times out of the interview we eventually broadcast!

But it can also be handy when someone does an almost perfect take, and louses up one little bit that was fine in another take - snip, paste, and hey presto - a perfect take!!

Of course, it wouldn't do to say who...

Subject: RE: Archive Recordings Lost Forever
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 25 Nov 06 - 08:19 AM

The baking process mentioned several times above is strictly a specific remedy applied to a specific set of high quality studio mastering tapes. These were (originally) tapes developed by Ampex in the early days of large reel video recording. They developed a beaut new slippery substrate that worked beautifully for the high speed, helical-scanning, tape drives in those machines.

They then decidied this would be a great tape base for studio mastering audio tapes ... but did not test its long-term stability. It turned out to have a high level of hydrolisation - turning the slippery base into sticky goo ... maybe in many years - if kept in air-conditioned, humidity controlled premises ... or a matter of weeks if they were being used in reporting from a sticky, humid jungle!

I had to retrieve material from an 1985 recording session in Sydney (nearly a decade after they started to suspect a problem ... but didn't tell their customers! The tapes were baked by a specialist (Archival Revivals, in Sydney's Eastwood) who then transferred them to CD-R.

It's unlikely that the tapes would stand another treatment, without losing some oxide / signal (however they are stored in sealed containers, just in case)... but I have a run of 1000 CDs using the recordings (and a back-up to my hard drive ... and my back-up hard rive ... and my transportable hard drive ... and the National Library's terabyte storage system ...)

Regards,

Bob

Subject: RE: Archive Recordings Lost Forever
From: Bernard
Date: 25 Nov 06 - 09:14 AM

Kat's query about memory sticks... such devices are designed for transferring data between computers, not as long-term storage. They can fall over and die without warning!! Don't rely on them for important backups, as you'll never retrieve the data when they fail - at least there is an outside change of retrieving data from a crashed hard drive.

Unfortunately, nothing can be considered permanent - vinyl has its problems, shellac was very brittle, audio tapes (and floppy disks/Zip disks) vary wildly in their longevity, hard drives stop working, CDs and DVDs aren't anything like as permanent or indestructible as early hype would have had you believe...

Perhaps we should cryogenically preserve the people themselves wherever possible, then stick them in a microwave and defrost 'em when a permanent recording medium is eventually found!

Meanwhile, do what George P suggests - write it somewhere, then later, write it somewhere else, and keep doing that to keep the memories alive.

Subject: RE: Archive Recordings Lost Forever
From: treewind
Date: 25 Nov 06 - 10:43 AM

The subject of preserving recordings permanently has come up on Mudcat before. One of the insights I remember gaining from the thread was that to preserve a digital archive you do have to keep copying it as media technology changes, but as the digital copy can be perfect that doesn't matter (other than the incovenience of having to do it). There's no special digital medium that's guaranteed to be be readable in 100 years time.

This contrasts with paper records (i.e. books, not sound of course) which last for centuries if kept properly.

Anahata

Subject: RE: Archive Recordings Lost Forever
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 Nov 06 - 11:00 AM

i've recently been transfering surviving casette demos of my old teenage years hippy-punk band [1976-81 vintage]
direct to a good quality standalone 16 bit CD audio recorder.

one thing i realised too late,
was that all my old in-depth 1980's knowlege
of tape technology has now mostly evapourated from my memory..

so, whereas years ago i knew everything necessary about tape bias/eq,
noise reduction, etc..

tape head de-magnetising

and most importantly..
the 'pro' dodges & workarounds for getting the best results
out of diferent combinations of tape types [ferric/chrome/metal]
and related recording machine settings..

[hmmm.. was one of 'em..
always record metal type tape on ferric setting with noise reduction switched off..????]

buggered if i can remember now!!!???


so now when faced with a box of demo tapes of different types
all with inconsistently anotated lables
rarely indicating if they were recorded
with or without dolby [B or C or whatever the other ones were.. S ???]
or the rival noise reduction processes..

and with the added stress that some of the tapes are so knackered
i might only have a one shot chance to play them back
before they disintegrate or wrap and knot around the
playback heads !!

therefore.. i just resorted to the pragmatic simple decision

of playing back all tapes with noise reduction switched off

and on the tape type settting that yeilded to my ears
best subjective treble response and clarity ..

and if some tape hiss/sibilence became a little over emphasised
due to lack of dolby compensation..

bugger it..!

its easier to filter out a little over-brightness & hiss in audio edit software

than it is to regenerate treble and clarity from muddy
over-noise-reduced audio transfers..


what do you guys think ???


[there was also that rival noise reduction dbx ??
that produced weird compression 'pumping' artifacts..]


also.. does anyone know if any of the major audio software progs
have settings that can replicate various
dolby etc settings..???

Subject: RE: Archive Recordings Lost Forever
From: Bernard
Date: 25 Nov 06 - 11:01 AM

Hmmm... you can still hear Liszt play Rachmaninov on a pianola if you have the right paper roll, if my memory serves me...

I don't quite know how they achieved it, or how they can justify saying you're actually hearing Liszt's interpretation, but it was the forerunner of MIDI!

I heard it on Classic FM a year or so ago, so someone must have recorded it...! Hah! The mind boggles!

Oh, and before anyone suggests it, I wasn't Brahmsed...!

Subject: RE: Archive Recordings Lost Forever
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 Nov 06 - 11:07 AM

btw.. as soon as i get a more modern powerful & reliable enough PC
i'll repeat the entire transfer all over again for the most important
studio recorded tapes
but with a decent sound card at 24 bit [ or higher]..



but for the moment the 16 bit CD transfers are better than none at all

Subject: RE: Archive Recordings Lost Forever
From: danensis
Date: 25 Nov 06 - 11:12 AM

In the days when I did programming, all our magnetic media were backed up on to punched paper tape (well mylar actually). At least if the tape got damaged you could stick some new tape over it and punch out the holes again.

Don't fancy that on the megabyte files of today though!

DAT and DLT are used in computing for backup.

Memory sticks from the better manufacturers are guaranteed a 10 year life, which is probably better than CDs, many commercial versions of which are falling to bits already.

John

Subject: RE: Archive Recordings Lost Forever
From: katlaughing
Date: 25 Nov 06 - 11:15 AM

Thanks, Bernard...I'd wondered about that.

Subject: RE: Archive Recordings Lost Forever
From: Bernard
Date: 25 Nov 06 - 11:48 AM

Yer welcome, Kat!

John - I have a Belkin memory stick, supposedly a good brand here in the UK, and it has died - fortunately with nothing of importance on it. I've had it around two years, so the warranty died with it!

PFR - you can buy inexpensive USB devices now that bypass the internal soundcard. I got one bundled with my Behringer Xenyx 1204 - it's called a UCA200, and has four phono sockets (RCA jacks across the pond!), L & R in and out, and a captive USB lead.

Here's the info...

Interesting that they include a link to the Audacity download!

Of course, if your PC is too old for USB, you're stuffed...!

Subject: RE: Archive Recordings Lost Forever
From: Bert
Date: 25 Nov 06 - 12:18 PM

Squeaks, your vinyl machine should have an audio output which will plug directly into your computer.

Subject: RE: Archive Recordings Lost Forever
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Nov 06 - 12:26 PM

cheap easy option ?

plug your old analog cassette into something likethis USB computer audio converter


http://www.amazon.com/ADS-Tech-Instant-Music-RDX-150/dp/B00065AO9Q

Subject: RE: Archive Recordings Lost Forever
From: Bernard
Date: 25 Nov 06 - 12:37 PM

I have a cassette unit which installed into a 5¼ drive bay on one of my PCs... it is controlled via the Com Port, and has software which automatically plays both sides of a cassette and converts them to WAV or MP3 format files.

It can make the whole cassette into one file, keep the two sides as separate files, or chop it into tracks (I prefer the manual approach...!).

The beauty of it is that it works unattended, so you don't have to watch it for an hour and a half whilst it rips that C90! I can insert a cassette, go off to work or something equally pointless, and come back to find I forgot to set the thing going...

A cheaper way to do it is to come out of the headphone socket on your Ghetto Blaster, and plug the other end of the lead into the Line In socket on the PC (usually coloured blue these days).

A stereo 3.5 jack to jack often comes with PC speakers or monitors with built in speakers these days - that's the cable you need - just ignore the fact that the plugs are green, or you'll go in the wrong 'ole... so to speak!!

Subject: RE: Archive Recordings Lost Forever
From: Arkie
Date: 25 Nov 06 - 01:09 PM

There are any number of problems that can develop with reel tapes that have been stored and any number of problems in playing them back to record if one does not play them at the proper speed or has dirty recording heads.   I have been overseeing a recording project for the past couple of years and we have managed to deal with some problems and failed at others.   I subscribed to ARSCLIST, a list for sound archivists for some direction.   We build a convection oven out of plywood and heated it with a light bulb to do the baking. As was said earlier baking is a solution to a specific problem, not all problems.   Tapes can be baked more than once but it makes sense to record them after the first time. Mitsui Gold, now MAM-A gold is recommended for archival storage.   One side of the disc is 24 k gold and the recording side has a special dye not commonly used in most commercial CD-Rs.   From what I have read the most damage to a CD other than physically marring the disc is oxidation and light.   The gold resists oxidation and the special dye supposedly resists light damage.   MAM-A rates the life span of their discs at 300 years.   That has yet to be demonstrated and there are reports that now that MAM-A discs are made in the USA and France they are not as reliable as before. There are also reports that hard drives that are put in storage can become damaged.   They are designed to be used. They have not been recommended for long term storage. The best bet seems to be CD-Rs and one should make several copies on different brand media and plan to migrate to the next media form in the future.   We also save MP3s as well as the gold and regular CD-Rs.

Subject: RE: Archive Recordings Lost Forever
From: GUEST,John Garst
Date: 25 Nov 06 - 02:02 PM

Print, on good quality paper, can have a very long lifetime.

Since we are discussing digital files, why not print them out as, say, a linear series of periods and spaces ("." = "1"; " " = 0). I don't know how to do this, and I don't know how much surface on a piece of paper would be required, but it seems to me that this could produce a "permanent" (even if not fireproof) record.

Subject: RE: Archive Recordings Lost Forever
From: Bernard
Date: 25 Nov 06 - 02:17 PM

That RDX-150 looks a handy gadget - it's even got optical in and out. Now if it had co-ax as well...

;o)


MAM-A gold discs sound (ouch!) like a reasonably safe bet... though how someone can say something is good for 300 years has to be viewed with a little scepticism!! Scientists aren't normally wrong, though, are they...?!!

Hard drives were never meant to be put into storage - the lubrication goes sticky and they seize up. Probably why manufacturers put a limited warranty on them as far as resellers are concerned - if sold outside of that warranty, it's the reseller who has to replace a failed drive, not the manufacturer.

They are at their best if left running all the time (hard drives!), so they reach their optimum temperature. Stopping and starting is bad for most electro-mechanical devices; they usually fail when you switch them on, rather than during use.

Fairly regular transfer to another disk of things that matter should avoid most disasters!

We had a server at work with two 18Gb drives in a mirrored array. I installed it in 2000 running Server 2000 SBS and Exchange Server, and it ran until April this year without a hiccup from either drive. We also had a DAT backup drive, but that eventually failed and had to be replaced after four years - it was used five nights per week, every week of the year, so it lasted well.

There was nothing wrong with the server when I de-commissioned it, we simply took the precaution of upgrading it to a better machine with 2003 Server, etc. as the entire company depends upon it for the Hire programme, accounts, documents and email.

Subject: RE: Archive Recordings Lost Forever
From: Bernard
Date: 25 Nov 06 - 02:25 PM

Oo-er... back to the punched tape!! I think even the smallest audio file would need something the size of Encyclopaedia Britannica to store it...!

One megabyte is a million bytes, as near as doesn't matter for the sake of argument (okay, one kilobyte is really 1024 bytes!). Each byte is eight bits, so that's 8 million bits.

An average audio track is around 50Mb, so that's 4000 million (4 billion?) bits... hrump!! That's a lot of paper, even in small print...!

Anyone care to try it and report back?!

;o)

Subject: RE: Archive Recordings Lost Forever
From: Bernard
Date: 25 Nov 06 - 02:28 PM

Oops... that should have been 400 million...

Subject: RE: Archive Recordings Lost Forever
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 25 Nov 06 - 02:33 PM

There have been several previous threads on "archiving" and it's a bit surprising that no one has made reference to any of them here, although I don't recall much that would be helpful that hasn't been mentioned here, especially if your purpose is extending the life of your own personal collections for your own use.

At the risk of belaboring the obvious, it should be kept in mind that most old recordings are analog and anything you put on a computer must be digital. If one is interested in preserving exactly what is on an old analog medium that's at risk, copying (as a mirror image) to a newer analog medium using analog equipment is the only way to really save the original - as for "later conversion when better methods are available." For most people this will probably mean copying everything to tape since tape is the only recordable analog medium accessible to most. If anyone wishes to do this, an analog tape must of course be used. "Computer tapes" are for digital data, and don't do well when used for analog info.

Obviously you can't save what the record sounded like when new. You can only save what remains of it at the time of copying, and you can't make an identical copy because both playback and recording will introduce some distortion.

I must suggest for consideration that just because they're "mechanical" doesn't mean that the old records are better at retaining the original recordings than tape. I made copies to cassette tape from a number of new vinyl platters in the period from about 1980 - 1985 so that I could "archive" the originals. The originals have been carefully stored (at home), while the tapes have been hauled around and played intermittently. The tapes still sound good, while the vinyls are at best "marginably playable."

The youngsters have no way of judging it, but even the old cylinder recordings that my grandpappy had in the attic sounded better, on the hand-cranked Edison, ca. 1948, than the best "digital remasterings" of similar era stuff recently released by Smithsonian, because the mechanical records are not the same now as when they were made. When new, my impression is that many of the old recordings probably sounded nearly "as good" as many new commercial recordings from the 50s, with the exception of slightly less dynamic range and smaller useful frequency range. No existing analog recording that anyone has now can reproduce exactly what the original recording sounded like, for anything more than a few years old and certainly not for something decades old.

Once converted to digital, the copy can suffer fairly significant "degrading" and a new copy can still be made that's exactly like the first digital copy. "Fat zeroes" and "short ones" can all be placed back on the new copy at their original cleanliness, as long as the recorder can tell what's a one and what's a zero. In some cases, error correcting methods incorporated in modern recording systems can even accomodate a nominal number of "ambiguous" bits. This is an obvious advantage, for archival life, for digital data, and most people probably should archive in digital form and accept that original analog information cannot be saved indefinitely - in the original analog form.

John

Subject: RE: Archive Recordings Lost Forever
From: robomatic
Date: 25 Nov 06 - 02:46 PM

A lot of the above advice is very good. About three years ago I converted high quality reel-to-reel recordings to digital format. While we considered these important recordings, they were not family chronicles or anything, just some favorite performances we used to listen to when we were using a tape player instead of a record player. These date from the 60's and 70's and were 7-1/2 inch per second and called 4-Track because the quarter inch tape contains staggered stereo tracks in either direction. Some of the more sophisiticated tape players would sense the end of the tape and reverse direction, so that you wouldn't touch the reel until a complete playback had occurred.
The tapes had been used a lot over an eight year period and then fallen into disuse but safe storage in a reasonably temperature regulated dry shelf space. My father posted them across country but well packaged. I was able to glom onto a reel-to-reel recorder/ player that had been in storage under a radio station that converted totally to digital. I spliced new leaders onto the tapes and listened to them for the first time in a generation. I found the great majority to be in excellent condition, well worth preserving. The output of the tape player was in the correct voltage range to plug directly into the computer's line-in interface. I used Cool Edit software (no longer available) to save the signal into WAVE format. I would check the tracks in order to maximize the signal to noise rate, in other words, I tried to capture the loudest portion of the tracks within the highest dB range indicated by the software. I usually needed to balance the left track with the right track.
The quality of the Decca pre-recorded tapes was generally excellent. That of the London ffrr tapes was less so, which was unfortunate because we had a lot of John Reed era Gilber & Sullivan operettas thereon. I found minor print-through of the music near the tape ends, and frequent tape breakages. These were long recordings with thin and brittle tape. On the worst of these I resorted to 'baking' the tape. There are instructions to be downloaded on the internet, but in general, one sets the oven temperature at a very low temperature, and leaves the tape in, in its plastic reel, for almost a day. Don't let the tape get near any metal, of course, it is to be warmed, not cooked! This seemed to make the tape physically stronger, and I got a good dupe off it with no more breakage.
As far as de-magnetizing of the tapes, the nature of magnetism is such that a magnetized bit of ferrous material does not easily change. The term used is of a 'domain' which requires a certain amount of energy within a certain distance in order to affect the recording. When you are handling a tape cassette, the plastic container not only keeps dirt out, but it keeps anything that has magnetic power at a physical distace from the tape. Reel-to-reel tapes are kept in cardboard boxes which perform a similar function. Remember that magnetic media is wrapped all around itself as you roll up the tape, and that stuff lasts for years. In the case of a digital hard drive which also depends on magnetic media, the hard drive box around the media prevents a lot of proximity of anything harmful, and of course there is a strong magnet right there in that box, driving the pickups. Obviously it is kept at a proper distance from the media so as not to harm it.

Lessons Learned -
1) When properly stored, good quality magnetic media can last for forty years and longer with low signal loss.
2) Even 'high' quality tape recordings may show significan bias changes between stereo tracks and opposite tape sides.
3) Excellent digital transfers can be obtained at home with diligant attention to detail and consistent procedures.
4) Greatest reliability in digital archiving should incorporate multi-media including backed up hard drives. If I had to stake my life on (people of the future) being able to hear a reasonable facsimile of my music, I'd probably put 'em back on analog tape, and put the tape in a dry vault. I think the near future holds great promise of more permanent and reliable digital storage, but CD's and DVD's aren't yet there. The media is bound to change, and, of course, the formatting of digital information has and will continue to branch. Having the stuff on a hard drive maximizes one's ability to re-format it at minimal loss before putting it onto the next type of media. (And of course, there will come a time when the hard drives themselves must be dispensed with as whatever's next comes along).

Subject: RE: Archive Recordings Lost Forever
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 Nov 06 - 04:49 PM

..also worth considering the absolute Hi Fi audio quality of any analog
recordings converted to digital
will be determined by the quality of the A/D converters
of the audio interface hardware used for audio transfer.

eg.. the 16 bit A/D converters in my Pioneer Audio CD Recorder
are high 'domestic' quality,
good enough for most semi-pro 'enthusiast' audio applications.

..my Line 6 Tone Port USB 'mini studio' is very good entry-level
24 Bit
'pro'audio quality..

..my new E-mu PC audio card
[cant wait to get a better PC to use it in]
is even higher quality, and considered oustanding value for £££$$$

.. my Behringer USB2 BCA2000 and M-Audio USB Black Box
are probably just as good as anything else hovering
under the best current standards set for budget price semi-pro music gear
by E-mu's current sound card product range..


the point is..

.. all these items of equipment are capable of audio transfers
that will satisy the normal listening requirements of all but the most
hyper sensitive of 'golden ears' audio professionals
and over affluent gear snobs..


..so realisticaly..

even the A/D audio conversion qualities of low cost entry level
domestic USB audio interfaces [ hhmmmRDX-150.. less than $40 !!!]
and the line-in input
of the average PC onboard soundchip

which are generally derided as crap by 'know all' Hi-Fi buffs

are plenty good enough for most people
who just want to archive family and friends recordings
that were only ever origionally recorded
on fair to decent amateur domestic recording equipment..

Subject: RE: Archive Recordings Lost Forever
From: Bernard
Date: 25 Nov 06 - 05:23 PM

PFR - I couldn't agree more!

When those 'over affluent gear snobs' started wittering about 'grain oriented speaker cable' that had to be connected the right way round... a speaker line is AC, for &*$@'s sake!! It doesn't make the slightest bit of difference!

Oh.. maybe I should add at this point that audio is my day job...

A lot of the 'differences' people claim to hear are hard enough to see on an oscilloscope...

Most people can't hear the difference between a 128k MP3 and a 24 bit WAV file... so why bother?

Hee hee!

Subject: RE: Archive Recordings Lost Forever
From: Bernard
Date: 25 Nov 06 - 05:26 PM

Oh, and I'm going to get myself one of those RDX-150 gizmos - thanks for the tip!

Subject: RE: Archive Recordings Lost Forever
From: robomatic
Date: 25 Nov 06 - 09:11 PM

As far as preserving in digital format goes a friend said why not store wave and mp3 files on a RAID configured digital setup. There are several choices. One of them is to have two hard drives mirroring each other, so whatever is stored on one gets duped on the other. Important point, if you 'mess-up' an existing recording, you will now dupe the mess-up as well. Another RAID configuration utilizes four hard drives with enough internal processing that any one of them can fail and be replaced with no loss of data. You give up 1/4th of your memory in order to do this, so f'r'instance, a set of four hard drives each of 160 GB size will store 480 GB worth of data. That's still a lot of storage at not too much expense.

Subject: RE: Archive Recordings Lost Forever
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 25 Nov 06 - 11:01 PM

Good Post - No answer.

For old 4 and 8 track players, the solution was replacing the "STICKY" gummy roll-bar. The tapes are still good.

I am still using cassettes that are 35 years old. No Problems.

JOE - I believe that the old WAV standard may be better than the MP3

One Hundred Years from now....vinyl will still be accessable, just not to the masses.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Twenty-four-inch nickolodians still play like yesterday.

Subject: RE: Archive Recordings Lost Forever
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 26 Nov 06 - 12:14 AM

I suspect that the most feasible way available at present is to save WAV files onto DVD discs, keep them in a dark cool place, and recopy thm onto the next generation of higher-capacity storage when it becomes available.

Subject: RE: Archive Recordings Lost Forever
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Nov 06 - 05:44 AM

Brewhouse music used the baking process successfully,to revitalise tracks that were added to my cd Around the Harbourtown, Ibelieve fellside have also done this successfully. They should be able to provide contributors with the correct tempreratutes,as should John Adams.Dick Miles