BS: USA vs British rude & other gestures...

Subject: USA vs British rude & other gestures...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Jul 02 - 11:36 AM

Now, the most famous American gesture is, of course, an upraised and reversed middle finger...directed in a contemptuous or hostile or even wryely humorous manner toward someone else, frequently someone behind the wheel of a car...

It's called "giving the finger".

What do the British have to match this? Are there viable alternatives?

Then there are the famous rabbit ears behind the head (2 fingers raised in a "V"), a favourite of schoolchildren for some reason. Is this popular in England too? I suspect it is. What exactly is it supposed to imply?

The Italians also have some very expressive gestures, so we probably should not leave them out of the discussion.

Elaborate away, people...

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: USA vs British rude & other gestures...
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 05 Jul 02 - 11:40 AM

The classic British equivalent is the first two fingers raised, with the back of the hand toward the person being signalled (The reverse of Churchill's 'V' for victory).
The accepted derivation is a signal used by Welsh archers to the French after Agincourt to show they still had the fingers required to draw their bowstrings. Apparently, captured archers had their fingers chopped off.

Nigel

Subject: RE: BS: USA vs British rude & other gestures...
From: Bullfrog Jones
Date: 05 Jul 02 - 11:41 AM

The traditional British equivalent has always been "two fingers" --- delivered with the back of the hand towards the recipient, as opposed to the peace or victory sign.
What its derivation is, I know not. But I bet there's someone out there who does....

BJ

Subject: RE: BS: USA vs British rude & other gestures...
From: Bullfrog Jones
Date: 05 Jul 02 - 11:47 AM

Curse you Nigel Parsons for being quicker on the keyboard! Were you only using two fingers like me?
BJ

Subject: RE: BS: USA vs British rude & other gestures...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Jul 02 - 12:02 PM

Interesting...the British gesture derives from military tradition, while the American gesture is a form of male sexual innuendo! I think this says a lot about the respective national psychologies of Britain and America.

Didn't Churchill do the "V" sign the wrong way at first, to the embarrassment of his aides, and then revise it to the polite version?

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: USA vs British rude & other gestures...
From: Bert
Date: 05 Jul 02 - 12:07 PM

You're right LH, Churchill's V sign was intended by Churchill to be the rude version which he was making to the Germans. He turned it around so that he could use it in polite company, but it's full meaning towards the enemy was always there.

Subject: RE: BS: USA vs British rude & other gestures...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Jul 02 - 12:12 PM

Ha! That's what I figured. Churchill was a cheeky sod at the best of times. The Germans just hated him with a passion, but I imagine they had a grudging respect for him too.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: USA vs British rude & other gestures...
From: GUEST,JohnB
Date: 05 Jul 02 - 12:15 PM

I worked with an Italian guy a few years ago, he told me that the Italian method was sort of one hand with the fingers under the chin with the back of the hand directed to and moved towards the intended recipient. Can anyone expound upon this theorem? JohnB

Subject: RE: BS: USA vs British rude & other gestures...
From: Leeder
Date: 05 Jul 02 - 12:19 PM

I read somewhere that in Greece, holding out the palm of your hand towards someone (like a traffic cop stopping traffic) is highly disrespectful. If you want to be even more flagrant, you use your other hand to tap the back of the extended hand, as though you were pushing the palm further towards the other person. This can earn you a punch in the nose -- or does memory serve?

Subject: RE: BS: USA vs British rude & other gestures...
From: Ringer
Date: 05 Jul 02 - 12:28 PM

My French guest holds out her right hand, and moves the four fingers up and down against the thumb (almost like a mouth opening and closing) to signify "You talk too much" or "I don't agree with what you're saying">

I've heard the above derivation of the "V" sign, as archers exulting that they still had two, before; but I don't believe a word of it. It sounds like an urban myth (or an everyday myth of county folk *BG*) to me. How long has the "V" sign been around, anyway? Is there evidence of its use before WW2?

Where I come from, it's use is known colloquially as "rodding".

Subject: RE: BS: USA vs British rude & other gestures...
From: Mrrzy
Date: 05 Jul 02 - 12:52 PM

Americans use that "talking" thing too, like when you're on the phone and someone comes by your office and you're trying (and failing) to get off the phone... and in Far Eastern countries it's very rude to sit in such a way as to allow the sole of your foot to face anybody, like with one leg crossed over.

Subject: RE: BS: USA vs British rude & other gestures...
From: mack/misophist
Date: 05 Jul 02 - 01:40 PM

Dante's Inferno mentions an Italian gesture, the "fig" made by forming a fist and sticking the tip of the thumb out from between the 1st and 2nd fingers. The footnote in my copy traces the gesture back th Roman times as a general reference to male genitalia.

Subject: RE: BS: USA vs British rude & other gestures...
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 05 Jul 02 - 01:53 PM

In some parts of Glasgow, bringing ones forehead into sharp contact with the bridge of the nose of the other person is a popular gesture designed to express contempt.

Sometimes this gesture is further emphasized by raising the right knee up emphatically into the groin of the person who is being held in contempt.

Murray

Subject: RE: BS: USA vs British rude & other gestures...
From: GUEST,Foe
Date: 05 Jul 02 - 01:58 PM

I had a book out of the library many years ago that refered to the middle finger salute in Roman times. The middle finger was called (latin scholars help here) the "imprudent finger" (digitus ?). That particular signal seems to have a 2000 year history.

Subject: RE: BS: USA vs British rude & other gestures...
From: catspaw49
Date: 05 Jul 02 - 02:00 PM

WEll Art Thieme just came up with one for the Computer junkies........."The Electro-Finger".......another way to say flame.

LMAO......."Here we are giving each other the Electro-Finger".............I tell ya' that one is great and I'm still laughing!!!!!!!

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: USA vs British rude & other gestures...
From: Clifton53
Date: 05 Jul 02 - 02:31 PM

Point the tip of your thumb at your nose with your fingers upright, wiggle them back and forth while facing your intended target, and you are telling them to kiss yer ass.

Subject: RE: BS: USA vs British rude & other gestures...
From: MMario
Date: 05 Jul 02 - 02:35 PM

I thought that was a "visual raspberry"?

Subject: RE: BS: USA vs British rude & other gestures...
From: Catherine Jayne
Date: 05 Jul 02 - 02:48 PM

Holding two fingers in the shape of a V behind someones head goes back many (I mean a couple of 100 or so). It symbolises the ass, making the gesture to someone is implying that they are the fool. However it is harmless fun these days and British children enjoy it too!!

cat

Subject: RE: BS: USA vs British rude & other gestures...
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 05 Jul 02 - 03:18 PM

In Canada we use the middle finger the same way they do in the States. I was in a loud nightclub in England with a Canadian buddy. He got a look of shock from the waitress when he tried to signal 2 beers.

Subject: RE: BS: USA vs British rude & other gestures...
From: toadfrog
Date: 05 Jul 02 - 03:32 PM

Having heard only tales of English courtesy, I am truly shocked to learn that they make rude gestures! Another illusion shattered, when I thought that none remained!

Subject: RE: BS: USA vs British rude & other gestures...
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 05 Jul 02 - 03:39 PM

To bite one's thumb at another is to invite the other to play the receiving part in a game of fellatio. You can find it in Shakespeare. "Do you bite your thumb at me?" "No, but I do bite my thumb!"

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: USA vs British rude & other gestures...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Jul 02 - 04:13 PM

Well, this has been a good response so far...

No one has mentioned the gesture where you form a fist, raise the forearm sharply to form a right angle with the0 upper arm, and grip arm behind elbow with opposite hand...again, it's a sexual reference. Seems to be popular with Italians...

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: USA vs British rude & other gestures...
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 05 Jul 02 - 05:22 PM

Murray MacLeod has a point. The only gestures I take seriously are those which involve sharp contact.

Subject: RE: BS: USA vs British rude & other gestures...
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 05 Jul 02 - 06:31 PM

Surely the fig would be the *female* genitalia?

I've seen Cockneys bite their thumbs in insult - you put the thumb between the top and bottom teeth, with the fist clenched and the fingerprint bit of the thumb facing the insultee, and jerk it sharply downwards.

The clenched fist with hand on inside of other elbow is also a penile insult among Spaniards.

The English "V sign" is normally done with a sharp upwards jab.

In the 1950s there was a sign - not sure whether it was English or American - shaking the hand slowly as if to shake water off, while sneering, which meant "what a drip you are".

The fingers-and-thumb waggled like mouth gesture used to be accompanied by the words "yack, yack, yack" in the 1960s.

Subject: RE: BS: USA vs British rude & other gestures...
From: artbrooks
Date: 05 Jul 02 - 06:49 PM

According to my French teacher, the bent arm with hand on bicep and clinched fist is their equivalant of the flying fickle finger of fate. An Israeli acquaintence told me yesterday that their version has the hand on the shoulder, the elbow slightly bent, and the arm about 10 degrees above horizontal.

Subject: RE: BS: USA vs British rude & other gestures...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Jul 02 - 08:02 PM

It's important to do most of these with a sudden, sharp motion up or down...it seems to increase the insult value. I'd never heard of the Israeli version before.

There's also a common gesture in many cultures: You want to indicate that another person is crazy, stupid, idiotic, and all that...so you gesture conspiratorially in his general direction, then point your index finger at your own head, make an appropriately idiotic expression, and rotate the finger several times.

There's a German expression that goes with this. It sounds something like "By dir pipst!" (but I don't know how it's spelled) and it means "something goes tweet! in his head". So I was told, anyway...

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: USA vs British rude & other gestures...
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 05 Jul 02 - 08:24 PM

I would say the palm on the bent arm looks like it has sexual connotations (and possibly sodomy) which is similar to the fuck off, or more closely 'fuck you' with the raised middle finger. ALthough it really means 'I fuck you' it has more to do with power and dominance than sex, just like animals mounting each other to show dominance. (Desmond Morris has done books, and tv shows on the subject and it is quite fascinating just how much meaning there is associated with gestures and how it differs around the world.)

I noticed when I lived in Japan, that when someone waves to summon you the hand faces down (instead of up which would be really rude - similar to curling the index finger as if calling a child.

some other gestures: the hitch hiking thumb, in one part of south east asia it means 'wheres the nearest bathroom'

a friend who lived in South America noticed that when they say 'I was this small' and hold out their hand to indicate height they have their palm up (instead of down).

there is the evil eye: hand forward with index and small finger up and thumb holding down the middle and ring. (some kind of curse)

the cuckold; placing of the thumb toward the nose and fingers spread out.

the greeks use the hands making an upward motion from closed fist to open palm (as if throwing at someone) supposedly excrement.

my favorite: the placing of thumb and fingers in a circle as if holding a glass but thumb and index touching, and placing it on the forehead and making an outward motion with the hand. (translation Dickhead) this is used as a car signaling gesture (but dont hit the windshield). THis is more british than north am.

(I for one like the archer (agincourt/crecy) origins of the two finger salute as it is only common to britain, although the aussie version (i think) is with two fingers but together.)

WHat gets me is the space people need-; those who grow up in more congested areas tend to move in closer in conversation than those who live in the country. petr

Subject: RE: BS: USA vs British rude & other gestures...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Jul 02 - 11:02 PM

Yeah. City folks crowd in on you...it's quite annoying if you're not used to it.

Then there are the drivers who don't feel comfortable unless their car is within 6 feet of the bumper of the car ahead of them, even when they're going 70 or 80 mph. They are a menace to themselves and everybody else. I always try to leave enough room ahead of me on the highway so that if an emergency occurs ahead, I have a chance to avoid it...and then one of these idiots jumps into the space, and I have to back off again...and another one jumps in...etc. By this means they will presumably arrive at their destination a second or two sooner than I do...if they arrive at all, that is.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: USA vs British rude & other gestures...
From: mack/misophist
Date: 06 Jul 02 - 12:32 PM

Guest Foe: The Latin you were looking for is 'digitus impudicus'. There were also a set of gods or religious images, one for each finger, called the 'dactyls'. Here, that finger was 'the fool's finger' because it's the longest and there are more fools than anything else.

Subject: RE: BS: USA vs British rude & other gestures...
From: Chip2447
Date: 06 Jul 02 - 02:16 PM

Make a fist, wrap you other had around the fist. Now, pull your fist down from around the grasp of the other hand...I learned this in the US Navy. "Kindly remove your head from your ass."
As a friend of mine uses, the classic middle finger salute but reversed; that is the middle finger hidden, and the other 3 extended..."Unf**k you, f**king is too much fun, or may you never get laid again".
Chipp2447

Subject: RE: BS: USA vs British rude & other gestures...
From: okthen
Date: 06 Jul 02 - 02:54 PM

I believe the two fingered, "v" sign came from the English / French wars, after Agincourt the French would amputate those fingers from an English bowman so that he could not draw an arrow ever again.

Subject: RE: BS: USA vs British rude & other gestures...
From: GUEST,Fuckwit
Date: 06 Jul 02 - 04:09 PM

The French use what is called the "Bras d'honour" the arm raised at right angles and grasped by the other arm. Achieving this whilst driving round the Arc de Triomphe gives a real sense of satisfaction.

My wife has given me and many angry drivers a great deal of grief by wiggling her little finger at them. (I think it has some sexual connotation)

Subject: RE: BS: USA vs British rude & other gestures...
From: Catherine Jayne
Date: 06 Jul 02 - 06:11 PM

We females at university used wiggling the little finger as a private joke or as an insult to the male in question, it basically meant that the male's, shall we say, private parts/ tackle/ meat and two veg.....errrr were not perhaps as large as they themselves thought and boasted about. Well I tried to be polite!!! However in doing this you were admitting to far more than perhaps you should have!!!!!

c'est la vie!!!

cat

Subject: RE: BS: USA vs British rude & other gestures...
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 06 Jul 02 - 06:30 PM

And the best male response is to use the first fingers of both hands to widen the mouth, thus suggesting a certain slackness from overuse.

Nigel

Subject: RE: BS: USA vs British rude & other gestures...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Jul 02 - 10:00 PM

Oh, that's nasty! I assume, since your name is Nigel that you must be from Great Britain (see other thread about USA & British names).

Am I right?

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: USA vs British rude & other gestures...
From: allie kiwi
Date: 06 Jul 02 - 11:11 PM

There is a sign in South America men seem to use to each other. If they see a tall man they make a gesture with the index finger pointing straigh up, whilst the thumb is horizontal. Then they reverse it so the thumb stands upright and the index finger is horizontal. It shows 'tall man, small willy; small man, large willy'. Hubby, who is 6 feet 4, was shown that signal many a time by short men he stated were just trying to make themselves feel better.

Allie

Subject: RE: BS: USA vs British rude & other gestures...
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 07 Jul 02 - 10:35 AM

Little Hawk: Check the 'Locator'

Nigel

Subject: RE: BS: USA vs British rude & other gestures...
From: Kudzuman
Date: 07 Jul 02 - 11:14 AM

A still-obscure gesture in our area is to use the index finger and thumb to form a circle while wiggling the other fingers in an upright position, which means "Flaming asshole!" I have used that for my own satisfaction when I don't want to arouse any road rage, but am really steamed at the behavior of another driver. Very satisfying!! What they don't know won't hurt me, but make them feel confused and annoyed, perhaps...

Mimsey

Subject: RE: BS: USA vs British rude & other gestures...
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 07 Jul 02 - 03:52 PM

The term described by the little finger being wiggled is 'needledick', indicating the insultee has smaller than desired sexual equipment. The smaller the wiggle, the smaller the equipment. This is echoed in the 'dickhead' gesture of making an O with the thumb and fingers of one hand, raising them to your forehead and making in and out movements.... the smaller the O, using just the thumb and forefinger as if indication a small amount, the smaller the equipment...

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: USA vs British rude & other gestures...
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 08 Jul 02 - 04:57 AM

Of course, making an 'O' of the thumb and first finger, with the other fingers beding in a similar way, gives a sign which, when waved up and down suggests that the person for whom it is intended is a 'Wanker' (US=Jerk off)

Nigel

Subject: RE: BS: USA vs British rude & other gestures...
From: Mr Happy
Date: 08 Jul 02 - 06:45 AM

the thumb & index finger formed into an 'o' + the other fingers straight up and the hand waved back and forth means like 'spot on' or 'ok' in uk.

a japanese friend told me that the same sign used in japan can either mean 'money'[have you got any money?] or if you wish to insult someone it means 'nothing' [you are nothing]

Subject: RE: BS: USA vs British rude & other gestures...
From: Grab
Date: 08 Jul 02 - 08:11 AM

More detail on the "wanker" hand movement. Place thumb against closed fingers to form a "tube". Raise arm with the hand's "tube" held vertical. Move hand up and down (most commonly with a wrist movement). (If you're male, the actions are probably fairly natural ;-) It's a common sight in Britain, particularly amongst irate car drivers who've just been cut up, or from ppl outside a pub trying to start a punch-up.

There's a similar movement popular amongst kids, for "dickhead". Same movement, but imagine you're stroking a unicorn horn (or some kind of horn anyway ;-) coming out of your forehead.

A very minor and childish one in Britain is "making long bacon" at someone (I didn't learn there was a name for it until quite recently). Put thumb on nose, extend fingers vertically, and wiggle fingers (usually whilst sticking your tongue out). I have no idea where this came from.

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: USA vs British rude & other gestures...
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 08 Jul 02 - 09:10 AM

Grab: that last one I have heard described as 'Cocking a snook'

Nigel

Subject: RE: BS: USA vs British rude & other gestures...
From: Snuffy
Date: 08 Jul 02 - 09:59 AM

That name's quite old, Grab. In the Marriott Edgar/Stanley Holloway monologue "Three-ha'pence a Foot" there's the line:

'And Sam made long bacon at him' [Noah]

WassaiL! V

Subject: RE: BS: USA vs British rude & other gestures...
From: Wolfgang
Date: 08 Jul 02 - 10:04 AM

the thumb & index finger formed into an 'o' + the other fingers straight up and the hand waved back and forth means like 'spot on' or 'ok' in uk.

We used to have it in that sense as well in Germany, but in the younger generation of drivers the 'o' formed by thumb and index finger (no hand movement necessary, but that's hard to spot) means 'asshole'.

And of course a big 'O' formed by both arms with the fingers meeting above your head means 'giant asshole'.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: USA vs British rude & other gestures...
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 09 Jul 02 - 01:57 AM

It's getting more common when needing to say 'OK' or 'Spot on' to have the index finger bent, so the top of the O is flat and it makes a sort of rabbit shape. It's a gesture used in diving too, to indicate that the diver is OK and can go again.

The one that annoys me most of all is the thumb and little finger extended, the others curled round into the palm and then the thumb put to the ear, to indicate a telephone call.... eeuuggghhhh!!!

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: USA vs British rude & other gestures...
From: Mr Happy
Date: 09 Jul 02 - 03:41 AM

lts,

that telephone one you're on about wsn't originally a commonplace gesture. its come to mainstream use from bsl & makaton. these are signing systems. bsl used by deaf people, & makaton by people with other communication difficulties.

i did a makaton refresher course some time back & it was noticed by other students that the sign for plane [airplane] was nearly the same as the phone one except you mime the plane flying through the air.

this came to be interpreted also as 'flying telephone!'

Subject: RE: BS: USA vs British rude & other gestures...
From: NH Dave
Date: 09 Jul 02 - 01:40 PM

When I was in Greece I was told that raising the index and middle fingers, to the temple and bring them together and apart as you tap the temple with the index finger implies that the person is a few bricks short of a full load.

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: USA vs British rude & other gestures...
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 09 Jul 02 - 02:31 PM

It used to be one finger pointing at head and being twirled round, just above the temple to indicate that the jam wasn't spread to the edge....

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: USA vs British rude & other gestures...
From: DonD
Date: 09 Jul 02 - 06:31 PM

Long ago, Ballantine Beer co-opted the 'okay' sign (index/thumb circle with other three fingers up) into their advertising as a way to order a Ballantine in a bar: the 3-ring sign, because their logo was 3 interlocking rings. I'm looking at one now in my vast bottle collection.

I've seen a book in teh library with pictures and explanantions of gestures from around the world. It was the kind of volume that you look through on the new books shelf but would never borrow or read or remember the author or name of.