What schools have done to folk music

Subject: What schools have done to folk music
From: Laurel
Date: 28 Jan 99 - 08:59 PM

All through elementary school we had music books with great songs, (Hey Ho, Ash Grove, ones like those), and some not so great. All of the kids thought they were dumb besause our music teacher was our worst enemy. Now, in band, we have a song called Folk Song Folks. It is a medley of the following: This Old Man, Old MacDonald Had a Farm, Aura Lee, Sweet Betsy From Pike, Frere a Jaucha, and Some Folks Do. Nobody likes it. I think it is Mr. Seppa's favorite, he is our band director. What are your opinions?

Laurel

Subject: RE: What schools have done to folk music
From: Barbara Shaw
Date: 28 Jan 99 - 09:37 PM

My son's school band did a medley like this, too, and it was pretty uninspiring. The songs can be good with the right instruments and voices, but somehow the over-arranged sound of a concert band with horns and drums and unison violins doing them makes it too glitzy for folk and too predictable to be impressive.

I was particularly offended by some elaborate piece passed off as original which contained distinct melody lines from "Whiskey Before Breakfast" and other traditional pieces.

An inspired music teacher might do something like showcasing individuals throughout the arrangement and keeping the folk character of the songs, rather than turning it into a "Broadway in the Mountains" medley. A good music teacher can make all the difference.

I hope you don't get discouraged. Take the songs and do something with them on your own. Get together with friends and try variations. Change the music (the "folk process") and add turns and touches you like. Make it yours. It is yours, after all.

Subject: RE: What schools have done to folk music
From: rick fielding
Date: 28 Jan 99 - 11:10 PM

I played a concert at a school a couple of weeks ago to about 120 kids and was amazed at how knowledgeable they were about folk music. Their teacher had worked out a deal with a local music store to supply at very reduced rates : fiddles, guitars, and PENNYWHISTLES!! (not one dreaded recorder in sight) Between my sets, groups of kids entertained ME with Carolan tunes, fiddle tunes and some pretty good pennywhistling. Two young girls took turns on the teacher's very valuable Gibson F2 mandolin (which he lets them take home occasionally...what trust!) and played some bluegrass tunes! Wow, when real folkies infiltrate the school systems...magic can happen.

Subject: RE: What schools have done to folk music
From: KingBrilliant
Date: 29 Jan 99 - 10:30 AM

Schools also do terrible things to voices. My daughter (7) has a lovely deep voice, and sings in tune beautifully when she is in her own range. But the school seems to demand that all children sing in a high pitch, and then she sounds AWFUL. It has taken me a while to educate her into using her own voice - but it is paying off nicely. To be fair, I suppose there is no other way than to go for what suits most kids - but its a shame that there must be loads of kids with great voices who may take ages to find out.

Kris

Subject: RE: What schools have done to folk music
From: Will
Date: 29 Jan 99 - 11:13 AM

I'm sure it varies tremendously by teacher. We had one elementary teacher who basically emphasized shouting as singing. The concerts were loud, but ...

The last two or three years we've had a teacher who is much more atuned to tone. The concerts are much more interesting and the kids seem to learn more about what their voices can do.

One theory I've heard is that it tends to depend on whether the teacher's musical training/education focused on instruments or voice. Those with voice backgrounds are more likely to emphasize the range of opportunities that are available for singing.

For folk, we've benefited greatly by having a teacher who is an active musician himself. He's not a music teacher in the school (media/library, instead), but he's offered and developed lots of music-oriented programs over the 7 years we've been in the school. Everything ranging from having the kids sing Old Dan Tucker to bringing in blue-grass bands to playing himself with parents at school events. When you get someone that active, it tends to spill over to other teachers, too.

For instance, another teacher is using three folkish-type songs in a concert next month (Dan Tucker, Tid-eo, and something that slips my mind just now but I know its in G) and has arranged to have one parent play fiddle, one parent bang on a guitar, and someone else play bass, while she adds the piano. The songs are simple two and three chord music (which is a good thing for some of the musicians, this one, anyway), but they give the kids a chance to sing stuff they wouldn't otherwise and for the kids and parents to hear wonderful instruments like fiddles and basses.

Subject: RE: What schools have done to folk music
From: Bill in Alabama
Date: 29 Jan 99 - 11:15 AM

Laurel: It is wonderful that you have an opportunity to perform in a school band and to learn to read music. But the song which your band is playing is not folk music by most definitions. This is not to say that it is BAD music, but it's just not folk music. The folk process is not likely to be found in any formal instructional environment such as a classroom. Practically any musical training is great, and the more types of music you can play, the more fun you can have and the more people you will have as friends. Soak it all up, learn as much as you can, and you will not believe the fun you can have. I once performed in concert with a 200-member university marching band. We did Duelling Banjos; I played the banjo part, and the band did the responses. I remember when I thought that my public-school music classes were awful, because the music we sang seemed so dippy, but eventually I was thankful that I had that instruction. Just stick with it, and wait for the great surprises.

(very old)Bill in Alabama

Subject: RE: What schools have done to folk music
From: Alice
Date: 29 Jan 99 - 11:55 AM

Laurel, have you ever thought of printing out one of your favorite thread discussions from the Mudcat and introducing your teacher to this website? The medley seems like an odd mix to me. Aura Lee is a beautiful song, so maybe you can work on that one on your own and at least develop something in your personal repertoire (memorize the lyrics, etc) that you can take away as a positive result of having to play this medley.

Subject: RE: What schools have done to folk music
From: Banjer
Date: 30 Jan 99 - 07:44 AM

Not just folk music has been affected by the schools!! Has anyone lately listened to some of the band music?? Barbara Shaw touched on it in her earlier post. Why do the bands not stick to music for bands? Many marches were written which they now ignore. Hearing a "marching band" playing Broadway show tunes just doesn't get it for me. I enjoy many types of music but would like to see the various types in their proper areas. How would it sound if a Bluegrass band tried Stars and Stripes Forever to accompany marching troops? Don't think so......

Subject: RE: What schools have done to folk music
From: katmuse
Date: 30 Jan 99 - 08:51 AM

rick -- What a great school, great teacher! Where is that one located?

Laurel -- Even though the medley (and the medleying process, and that kind of medleying in general) is pretty much a turn-off, you could use it as a starting point to get into your own research on what the constituent songs actually were/are, including the words originally with the music. And when you are presented with those kinds of arrangements (for band, chorus, or even just someone's own notion of "styling" for songs that you think are really folk songs), you might want to track down the more genuine folk versions, and to learn, as Alabama Bill suggests, what characteristics identify them as folk songs instead of some arranger's labeling (or mis-labeling) (libeling?) them that way.

You have spurred a bunch of good responses here!

Will -- What a neat idea to include the parents joining in on the accompaniment for the kids' singng, and using songs that are simple enough that everyday people _can_ accompany without feeling daunted.

Subject: RE: What schools have done to folk music
From: rick fielding
Date: 30 Jan 99 - 01:14 PM

Hi Katmuse

The school is St. Monica's in Toronto and the teacher is Domenic Walter, who is part of a couple of song circles, and is an all-round nice guy..but shy! He'd probably be embarrassed to know I was talking about him!

Subject: RE: What schools have done to folk music
From: katmuse
Date: 30 Jan 99 - 01:56 PM

Thanks, Rick.

Subject: RE: What schools have done to folk music
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 Jan 99 - 08:07 PM

I think schools do the most harm by neglecting music. Since the tax revolts of the late 1970's, music instruction has become increasingly rare in public schools here in California. When I haunt used bookstores, I often find songbooks that were published for schools by the State of California. They were wonderful! A wide variety of songs, and colorful illustrations. I suppose they did sanitize some of the more controversial lyrics, but not horribly so. I think it's a shame kids don't get that nowadays. I suppose music classes are available, but they're no longer part of the everyday curriculum for all students.
I'm a product of 16 years of Catholic education, and I had music class every semester. I think those classes exposed me to a wide variety of music, and I'm grateful for that. I'm especially thankful to my German teacher, Father Robert Mueller of Milwaukee, who inspired me to memorize a couple dozen German drinking songs.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: What schools have done to folk music
From: Anne Lee
Date: 31 Jan 99 - 02:16 PM

This is indeed an interesting topic. Music of any sort in schools depends upon the priority and value the district/school places on it.

I am fortunate to work at a small Lutheran Acadenmy, just four years new where our pastor, a music major, teaches Lutheran hymns and our pre-school/kindergarten/music teacher, Cindy Simon, does an excellent job of teaching a wide variety of music. Students are currently learning about music periods such as Barque, Classic and also learning the background of Underground RR,Revolutionary,and Civil War songs. The students just love it.

You should hear them sing...on pitch, in parts and singing within their God given ranges.

Come check it out if you are in the area.

Peace Lutheran Academy Sussex, WI 53089 [phone]

Rick F. Ja,waaay to gooo with those German Bier Drinking Songs!

Subject: RE: What schools have done to folk music
From: rick fielding
Date: 01 Feb 99 - 11:47 AM

Hi Anne. 'Fraid it's Joe Offer who zings da Cherman drinking Zongs. I must be content with Irish and French Canadian drinking songs!

Subject: RE: What schools have done to folk music
From: Kernow John
Date: 01 Feb 99 - 05:34 PM

Sometimes these things go in circles. The primary school in our village threw out all it's copies of the old sing along (BBC Radio) books. Fortunately my wife and I rescued and stored them. Now the senior school has asked us to go in each week and have a sing around session with the kids so we've got the words and music to hand. We take all our whistles, percussion and stringed instruments as well and get the kids involved. It's a great session for us.
So any younger folk reading this thread don't get discouraged, just nag your favourite teacher I'm sure there is a folkie in your area that would come in and share some time with you I never met one yet that wasn't willing to give up time for kids.
Regards Baz

Subject: RE: What schools have done to folk music
From:
Date: 01 Feb 99 - 09:30 PM

OOps! Sorry Rick. I'll keep it straight. Straight up on the rocks that is! Ha! Love that Irish Whiskey.

Subject: RE: What schools have done to folk music
From:
Date: 02 Feb 99 - 12:16 PM

I regert to say that I find a certain narrowness of mind running through this thread. It resembles that old attitude that that constantly whines about the "purity of folk music"..... how dare a brass band paly THAT.....

Secondly, the very title of the thread is a huge and unfair over generalization. What schools do to music Indeed.. It may not be to your liking or meet with ypour narrow definition...but I believe that Schhols in general do a wonderful job of teaching music. I have worked for many years in a school system where the musc programme was considered one of the best anywhere.. For years I have enjoyed the sound of middle school string quartets playing Barbara Allan ... God Forbid. I"ve heard voice students doing Cape Breton Lullaby and have even heard such basphemous stuff as Wild Mountain Thyme played on the recorder. Perhaps we should only hear the badly played versions of these that turn up in most "authentic" folk clubs and pubs. Yes, for Gods Sake, let us get music away from those schools...

Subject: RE: What schools have done to folk music
From: Dale Rose
Date: 02 Feb 99 - 12:30 PM

Would the previous poster please attach a name to their statement? I like to know who I am speaking to.

Subject: RE: What schools have done to folk music
From: MMario
Date: 02 Feb 99 - 03:14 PM

regarding the previous anonymous poster - When you proceeded to blast the name of the thread - Did you happen to know that the originator is a student in the school system? If I recall correctly, she is 12. She stated specifics regarding her situation, and asked for opinions. No one has denied that SOME schools do a wonderful job of teaching music. Some do a wonderful job of teaching some facets of music. Some don't do a very good job of teaching ANY facet of music. Apparently you have been lucky. I know my local school district has a wonderful reputation - yet have seen a vocal teacher force a BASS to try and sing in high tenor range - excruciatingly painful for singer and listener! Even when a school has a wonderful reputation - and that reputation is deserved, some facets may be lacking in depth and/or treatment. This is not generalization, this is a fact of life. No one can be perfect at everything... In addition - I think you will find most people in this group AND thread are in FAVOR of folk in the school system.

MMario

Subject: RE: What schools have done to folk music
From: Pete M
Date: 02 Feb 99 - 04:25 PM

I would like to second the comments by Dale and Mario, I appreciate that at present the "From" box is not available for input, but nothing prevents anyone from signing a posting.

I am at a loss to understand the implication of the anonymous posters first sentence of the second paragraph. The title of the thread is a statement with no pejorative connotations, and I find it difficult to give any weight to the remaining opinions if even that cannot be understood.

It appears that you sir/madam are the one applying a narrow definition, one wonders by whom your schools music programme is considered "one of the best". It may be so, but without a frame of reference it is a meaningless statement. I would suggest that the only valid measure of success is to find out if the music lessons are enjoyed by the pupils and have have widened their appreciation of music of all kinds.

As Joe, Mario and others have pointed out, all schools vary, some are wonderful, some abysmal, and from my experience it is often the ones lauded as producing the "best" choirs, orchestras etc as defined by the music /education establishment, who do worst in instilling a love of music to all their pupils. I would rather see and hear a badly played/sung redition by a class who were obviously thoroughly enjoying themselves than a perfect concert performance achieved at the expense of 90% of the pupils regarding music lessons as a waste of space.

Pete M

Subject: RE: What schools have done to folk music
From: Barbara Shaw
Date: 02 Feb 99 - 05:00 PM

To Anonymous,

I repeat and stand by what I said before: the teacher makes all the difference. I would never suggest taking music out of the schools. And the idea of a string quartet doing Barbara Allan sounds delightful. I've also appreciated the Boston Pops doing the Beatles and all kinds of deviations from the usual arrangements and usual instrumentation. What I object to is bad arrangements and bad taste, foisted on defenseless students of music, and new compositions that don't give due credit to traditional sources.

I don't share your view that schools in general do a wonderful job of teaching music. Our school system is considered to have a wonderful music program, but I've seen kids in high school bands who can barely read music after having studied an instrument at the Intermediate level for several years. I've seen many, many kids who have never heard of bluegrass (not the greatest omission to some, but important to me) and have never been exposed to ballet or opera. This is not doing a wonderful job, and this is not uncommon throughout the area.

The opportunity to learn any kind of music is of tremendous value, and my intention was to encourage the original poster to stay with the music and find something she could enjoy about it. And may we all do the same, anonymously or otherwise.

Subject: RE: What schools have done to folk music
From: rick fielding
Date: 02 Feb 99 - 06:40 PM

Wow, I am darned impressed. It seems that everyone has been able to decipher what side of the coin "anonymous" is on. I'm still trying to figure out whether he/she (bet your'e a he, though) is attempting irony, and hence the posting is actually more positive than it appears. Colour me cornfused.

Subject: RE: What schools have done to folk music
From: aldus
Date: 03 Feb 99 - 09:15 AM

I see the point anon is driving at.. If the intention is to say that it is often Bad Teaching that is the problem.. then Why is the thread not Called what bad teachers do to music. I think that to suggest that there is not a negativive overtone here, is to insuilt the rest of us....

Subject: RE: What schools have done to folk music
From: MMario
Date: 03 Feb 99 - 10:21 AM

I am risking putting words in someone's mouth here... but the title of the thread is "what schools have done to folk music" The original poster stated WHAT OCCURRED in HER SCHOOL; then asked opinions. People offerred not only opinions but example of things that they knew had happenned.

the thread title is NOT "Bad things schools have done to folk" - or "Bad teachers of music". Granted the thread has drifted that way to some extent.

I don't know if there is a way to change the title of a thread. If there is, I don't know it.

And from MY reading of the thread, I imply that for the most part the posters are supportive of music in the schools, aware that it is a difficult field to cover thoroughly, and encouraging to any who have a bad experience in school to seek outside of school to fulfill their needs. My opinion.

All this is in keeping with the title of the thread.

MMario

Subject: RE: What schools have done to folk music
From: Penny
Date: 03 Feb 99 - 11:24 AM

I read this thread while our choir practised outside my classroom (British Junior School, children aged 8 to 10), singing a variety of music, some of it well. We have curriculum pressure problems, though, and a culture difficulty. most of our children reach a certain age and then decide that they don't sing. If I could get my class singing ANYTHING, folk, bowdlerised folk, or the very good input from the BBC, I would carol it from the roof tops. As it is, I am used to the little dears looking at me very peculiarly when I do sing myself, because they just aren't used to singing. (I am told that my voice isn't bad, so it's not that I'm caterwauling.) Singing isn't cool.

Penny

Subject: RE: What schools have done to folk music
From: MMario
Date: 03 Feb 99 - 11:46 AM

I have had that problem at a summer camp I work at, ages 10 to 18. a LOT of the "unstructured" entertainment is singing. new campers usually sit like lumps on a log, the "returnees" join in. but by the end of a week, I would say 9.9 out of 10 of the campers are singing lustily. I think a lot of that is that the entire staff likes to sing, sings frequently, obviously enjoys both what they are singing and singing itself. of course, this is a group that is isolated from the real world for a week

MMario

Subject: RE: What schools have done to folk music
From: Animaterra
Date: 03 Feb 99 - 12:47 PM

As aschool music teacher I have been lurking on this thread without saying anything- I have to agree that there's a lot of really bad music education going on. That's why I decided to become a music teacher- to see if it could be done better! I agree with MMario and Penny- it is very hard to get kids to sing after about the age of 9 when "cool" sets in, as well as the fear of looking like a fool in front of one's peers. I just hammer away at it with the most appealing songs I can think of, folk or not, from "Sail Away, Ladies" (which they love) to"Shenandoah" (which they love but won't admit it to each other!) to the good old bad old "Titanic" ("it was saaaaaaaaaaad, it was saaaaaaaad..."), to, yes, I confess it freely, "Waltzing With Bears". Once they are used to singing, they'll do it, however reluctantly at first, and when they realize everyone else is singing too and not glancing sideways at them, it gets better. But the Popular Culture has as much to do with the downfall of music as the bad teachers (and they sure are out there!) themselves.

Subject: RE: What schools have done to folk music
From: mike cahill (inactive)
Date: 03 Feb 99 - 02:10 PM

As a 40 somthing brit. My memories of school music are very fond ones. Although my school was a poor inner city one where the only band instruments were triangles, tone blocks, recorders(we had to buy our own), and a drum. The music came from the BBC in little booklets called singing together. True the range was limited, ken John Peel, the Kokaborra (aussi bird), Camp town races etc. The teacher made the difference with the energy he put into it and Im sure that it was his hard work that turned me on to music.

Thank you Mr. Mathiews

Subject: RE: What schools have done to folk music
From: Cuilionn
Date: 03 Feb 99 - 04:06 PM

(I'll dae..ahem, DO my best not tae wricht..er, WRITE this in my usual Braid Scots, since this topic is educational and I don't want to limit accessibility... bear with me if it creeps in.)

Third grade was the magic year in our public school system... the four third grade teachers devoted every friday afternoon to "third grade sing-along," teaching us all manner of Broadway songs, folk chestnuts, novelty songs, and the occasional foreign-language bit. They always took care to encourage and praise the "difficult" kids the most, and bestowed general praise frequently, liberally, and earnestly. They plunked out melody lines and simple chords on the piano until we "got it," and gave us mimeographed lyric books which we rarely even needed a single glance at. (Sometimes my teacher, Mrs. Eggleston, had her daughter come and accompany us on guitar. Her name was Kat, and she had a beautiful voice...)

At the end of the year, we put on a huge program, full of self-made props and pageantry, and every single kid got either a solo or small-group performance piece. Mine was "Wouldn't it be loverly," complete wi' an excruciating attempt at a Cockney accent. But didn't I belt it out, and count myself a genuine SINGER!!! Although all but one of those teachers have now retired, the new teachers keep it up, and the third grade program is always a featured event in our town's social/entertainment calendar. The songlists change, of course, but all those lucky third graders still get introduced to a grand musical heritage, and they all benefit from the glorious discovery that they CAN SING!!!

Sae, there are plenty of frustrations, but some schools--and dedicated teachers--have "done to folk music" some wonderful things. Almaist twa decades later, I'm still hummin' those tunes, and voraciously feedin' a musical appetite that was well-whetted early on. My Cockney accent, however, has not improved. No matter...I switched o'er tae Braid Scots an' Gaelic!

Gabh spors,

--Cuilionn

Subject: RE: What schools have done to folk music
From: Banjer
Date: 03 Feb 99 - 07:55 PM

In defense of my post about the brass band. I do not at all deny that a brass band can and does play many types of music very well! The point I was making is that if they bill themselves as a MARCHING bandn then play music appropriate to a marching band. If they want to doshow music then play show music, but don't march in a parade playing the theme from Dr. Zhivago. It doesn't match the tempo of the marchers. I am not at all against music in schools. In fact thinking back on it, some of my fondest memories are from Mr. Johnson's music appreciation class in 9th grade. I got to play the autoharp using a rubber doorstop as a plectrum. Glory, was I bad....but I learned that it didn't matter how bad I was, I was part of the other 28 kids that were also adding their own levels of good/bad and together we sounded not too bad!!!

Subject: RE: What schools have done to folk music
From: Alice
Date: 03 Feb 99 - 08:05 PM

As others have stated, there are some inspiring teachers out there that continue to teach songs. Last year my son had a great teacher who remains to be a good friend. He has a face and sense of humor like Groucho, and he had an old piano painted white in the classroom on which he would play Scott Joplin rags. He would lead the kids in singing folksongs, and some of them thought it was cool, some didn't. He would let my son stay after school and play the piano while he prepared for the next day (even though we live a block away and have a piano here at home). You can see this inspiring teacher by clicking here.

Subject: RE: What schools have done to folk music
From: Laurel
Date: 03 Feb 99 - 08:10 PM

In choir which in our school is not an option, but a regular class, I have a wonderful teacher who is really nice. When I started this thread I did not mean that the teachers were bad, just some of the songs that our band teacher teaches. Just clarifying...

Laurel

Subject: RE: What schools have done to folk music
From: Barbara Shaw
Date: 04 Feb 99 - 12:37 PM

I've actually changed my opinion somewhat as a result of this thread.

When I think back on music education when I went to school (the "olden days"??!!) I have to admit that things are much, much better today. Back then, very few kids were in band, no one wanted to be in band except those already taking private lessons (very few), and the band and choral club were extra-curricular activities that met once a week and were mutually exclusive. And the band played only marches at assemblies.

That's not the case today in my son's school. He has classes for band, orchestra, jazz ensemble, concert choir, ensemble singing group and musicianship available to him. This is truly remarkable compared to what I had. So I feel bad for trashing the school system for minor points. (I guess it's never enough to a music maniac. . .)

Anyhow, the schools are doing a much better job than ever before, and some teachers are doing an outstanding job. And the variety of music played in today's bands is much better than the marches-only mentality of the past, even if it isn't to my taste.

Subject: RE: What schools have done to folk music
From: Bert
Date: 04 Feb 99 - 01:02 PM

It was a long time ago, but our music teacher got dumped with a class of boys in their early teens whose previous musical education was zilch.

The one music lesson a week wasn't nearly enough for him to teach us anything serious.

To keep us in order, most of our lessons consisted of singing sea shanteys and schoolboy songs.

Bless his heart, I didn't realize how lucky I was.

Bert.

Subject: RE: What schools have done to folk music
From: Joe Offer
Date: 04 Feb 99 - 01:14 PM

I think that music teachers in schools are still quite good, but school administrators and school boards have stolen music education funding in the current "back to basics" movement that emphasized reading, writing, and sex education over a well-rounded curriculum. Those who pay the bills nowadays consider music education to be a luxury, not an essential part of education.

MMario's comment about summer camp reminds me that things might not be so bad, though. I've taken groups of Cubs Scouts and Boy Scouts to camp a few times in recent years. The camps are staffed by teenagers and young adults, and parents like me go to camp with the kids. Those camp staff members sing just as well and just as enthusiastically as I did when I was a camp counselor 30 years ago; and the kids join in very well, too. You know what? They sing the same obnoxious old camp songs, too.

Culinonn, are you dropping names? Is the Kat Eggleston with the beautiful voice this one? If so, you're right - she certainly does have a beautiful voice. Her songs are quite good, too. She's not your run-of-the mill wannabe singer-songwriter, that's for sure. She also does some good traditional songs in addition to her own creations.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: What schools have done to folk music
From: Cuilionn
Date: 04 Feb 99 - 02:51 PM

Aye that, Joe... ;-) She wis a grand influence on ma formative years! I hae twa o' her auld "Ferryboat Musicians" tapes, made when she and Steve Guthe used tae hae a runnin' (floatin'?) gig on th' Washington State ferry run atwixt Seattle an' Bainbridge. Her mither introduced me tae th' wide spectrum o' American popular music, an' then Kat introduced me, via her tapes, tae th' aulder an' mair wide-rangin' traditions ayont.

Kat an' th' 'Cat...lang may they baith live!!!

--Cuilionn

Subject: RE: What schools have done to folk music
From: bseed(charleskratz)
Date: 06 Feb 99 - 11:55 PM

Hi, all--On Wednesday afternoon I had the first group session of my Home Made Music class at Berkeley Unified School District's Independent Studies program. We have six or eight classrooms in two buildings surrounding a small courtyard on the campus of the continuation school (Berkeley High School East Campus, a half a mile south of Berkeley High's main campus). It was a beautiful spring day (it's often spring in February in the Bay Area), as it had been on Tuesday (it's cold and stormy now, the groundhog's shadow having frightened him back into his hole on Tuesday).
.
Anyway, because of the warm sunshine, my as-yet small group of students and I, joined by a couple of other teachers, sat pickin' and singin' for about two hours. I'd had an individual session with one of the group the hour before that, working on the circle of fifths and on twelve-bar blues--in the same sunny courtyard. Halfway through the group session, this student's mother, concerned about my bald head's vulnerability to the sun, made me a hat out of a piece of construction paper. It looked silly but did the trick.

I have on order ten copies of RUS and five Klutz Jon Gindick Country and Blues Harmonica for the Musically Hopeless books/tapes/harmonicas, have purchased a CD/tape boom box with a microphone jack for recording lessons, and will pick up a few more instrumental lesson programs for the gang.

I'm really busy this semester, despite being only 40 percent employed: I have more than twenty students in my photo group, individual sessions with each of them plus my music students at East Campus and three afternoons in the lab at Main Campus, and the music group session Wednesday afternoons. I can't wait for the days to get longer.

By the way, one of my former students put together a CD of Berkeley High students' bands--and asked me for a tape. I received a copy of the CD this past week--with my contribution, "Jimmy Brown the Newsboy."

So I'm still on the planet, still pluggin' and still pluckin'. Regards, --seed

Subject: RE: What schools have done to folk music
From: Hatzie
Date: 07 Feb 99 - 05:26 AM

[I remember when I thought that my public-school music classes were awful, because the music we sang seemed so dippy, but eventually I was thankful that I had that instruction. Just stick with it, and wait for the great surprises.]

I don't often find myself in the position of defending the performance of the public schools, but I have to agree that it's a lot easier to critize the music teacher than to do any better. I recall with regret that in the 1980's some of my children were in the chorus, and as a friend of both the band director and the vocal music teacher I could probably have offered to help, and never found the time.

When I was in the band in the 1950's we would sometimes play music from Broadway musicals, but not much if any from the current country or rock that we heard on the radio, and I don't recall a lot of complaining about that. We all more or less understood that if we tried to take those songs out of their medium and put it into ours, it probably wasn't going to work very well. A few of us had a little German band on the side that played more of a variety of stuff, and we managed to pick up a free meal from time to time for playing, besides just having fun.

If the teacher is any good at all, it's better to learn to sing something, more or less anything, and then we can go on to do whatever we feel like on our own time.

Clearly, what we need is national standards for the band, the chorus, and the elementary school music classes, with a list of approved music provided by the Department of Health, Education and Welfare, and standardized tests at each grade level to make sure each school is doing the job of teaching those, and we'll just cut off funding for any school that's below the 10th percentile on those tests. Shortly all the money for schools will be distributed from the center, so those who pay the piper will be able to take care of calling the tunes.

Thanks for your comments.

RWH

Subject: RE: What schools have done to folk music
From: Ferrara
Date: 07 Feb 99 - 06:51 AM

It all depends on the school, and on who's teaching there that year, doesn't it? My own school days started in around 1946 so are hardly relevant today, but we sang *lots* of folk songs, including having assemblies just to sing. Some of those early songs are still favorites.

My own kid is in high school now. I took my zither and MacArthur harp to his fourth and fifth grade classes, chose kid-friendly songs ("The Fox," "Camptown Races", "Mockingbird Hill"), and the kids loved it. A couple of times they asked me to sing a song twice! One year, the teacher said she was doing a unit on Folk Music at the time, so it fit right in.

Bruce Hutton, one of the founders of Double Decker String Band, is regularly brought into elementary schools in this area to give an assemblies. He brings a big selection of instruments, including some percussion stuff, and calls up a couple of kids from the audience to play along. Big hit. The music is old-timey folk, played on marvelous old instuments.

Subject: RE: What schools have done to folk music
From: GUEST,Denise:^)
Date: 17 Aug 01 - 06:01 PM

Came across this thread, and thought I'd see what people thought about it after a couple of years...

With the new school year starting soon, the teachers gathering to get their classrooms ready, etc. The music teacher is sharing what she plans to do for this year, and I'm cringing in the corner of the staff room.

I've been at this school for several years, and not once, NOT ONCE, have my students ever come back from music class humming or singing a song. They don't sing in music! They chant, pound on chimes, rattle, bang, and clatter, but they don't sing. Ever. According to the music teacher, she is using the renowned "Orff" method. If this is true, how did it get so "renowned?"

In my classroom, we sing. And sing and sing! (I often use singing to teach reading.) My students made a CD this year; they had 18 songs on it, that they chose from the ones we learned over the course of the year. (Nothing fancy--the kids & me, singing away, with my autoharp accompaniment. Recorded it with a minidisc recorder. Made copies for every student!)

I even set up an assembly for the entire school--free--with a band & a caller, and we sang folksongs and danced trad. dances and talked about poineers all day...the kids loved it, but the music teacher didn't notice!

I remember singing in music class as a child--it was the highlight of my week! (Unlike gym, which was torture...) I still remember many of the songs I learned back then. I think it's too bad that our students are missing out on all this.

So? Anyone else want to share school music experiences? Anyone know much about the "Orff" method?

Denise:^)

Subject: RE: What schools have done to folk music
From: John Nolan
Date: 17 Aug 01 - 06:08 PM

Piss orff???

Subject: RE: What schools have done to folk music
From: vindelis
Date: 17 Aug 01 - 06:46 PM

I thoroughly enjoyed singing at senior school. We had two choirs, - junior and senior, an orchestra (the usual classical type) - and a choral society that performed a Gilbert and Sulivan opera each year. Again, the 'folk' songs tended to be 'arranged' and were not that inspiring for any, would be, budding folkies. We did manage to perform Joseph and his Amazing Technicolour Dreamcoat, one year and that was great fun.

Subject: RE: What schools have done to folk music
From: TNDARLN
Date: 17 Aug 01 - 09:17 PM

Denise, are you on cyberpluckers? I just got here, and saw this thread thinking it was deja vu all over again!

T

Subject: RE: What schools have done to folk music
From: GUEST,Denise:^)
Date: 17 Aug 01 - 09:37 PM

Yeah--kind of weird...

I submit a post here, and the conversation about it starts up over there...

Made me a little dizzy about which site I was reading!

:^)

Subject: RE: What schools have done to folk music
From: M.Ted
Date: 18 Aug 01 - 11:57 AM

Denise,

Carl Orff wrote "Carmina Burana", a choral work with tons of pecussion, based on a group of songs written by some very interesting monks back in the thirteenth century--if you don't know it by name, you will recognize it when you hear it, because it has been used in movies, dance concerts, and even TV commercials--also, in the thirties, he wrote a series of musical excercises and then developed a teaching methodology for teaching very young children the basics of music, using recorders, percussion instruments, etc. It is actually a great system, and has been used throughout the world--but it isn't supposed to be the only music that kids get--

Some music teachers are highly motivated, gifted, and inspired, and put all their energy into creating positive learning experience(just like other teachers), others, less ambitious but still competent, find something that works for them and go with that--then there are those who are there because they can't do what they really want, and so they do whatever they can to kill the time. A lot of times, they don't even realize that they themselves, and not the students, administrators, and other faculty, are the problem--

It sounds like you are doing amazing things with music in your classroom, a good music teacher will not only love you for that, they will be in your face, day after day, figuring out ways to tie what you are doing into what they are doing--And they will be trying to figure out ways to get parents involved and all that--

One is tempted to suggest that you sit down and offer to work with this individual, and it would be nice if you did, but they have to be receptive, and if they were receptive, they'd be working with you in the first place--so...

Anyway, it sounds like the kids are getting a good musical experience in your class-

Subject: RE: What schools have done to folk music
From: AllisonA(Animaterra)
Date: 18 Aug 01 - 12:51 PM

M Ted's Orff explanation is excellent; so is his description of music teachers! I just want to add that the Orff method is full of songs- I do a modified Orff program and we sing like crazy! Also, Carl Orff never intended his method to be the only way to teach music.
Yes, Denise, the kids leave my classroom humming and singing and every few weeks we have "song request day" and there are always songs left unsung. It sounds as though your music teacher is more instrument-minded than song-minded- it happens all too often (does he/she also teach band?). Good luck this school year- it sounds as though your kids will be having a terrific singing year!

Subject: RE: What schools have done to folk music
From: lady penelope
Date: 18 Aug 01 - 02:51 PM

I have found, from personal experience, that the attitude that the school has in general ( from the board of governers downwards ) can affect the the actual and perceived standard of music taught to/ learnt by students.

Example, at my secondary school ( ages 11 - 16 ) music was very much an after thought. Not that there wasn't any money ( these were the heady days of the GLC who tended to throw money at schools for art programmes ) but it just never really got treated as a serious subject.

So it tended to be just a handfull of the 1300 girls in the school who got involved and a lot of those had private lessons and that seemed to make it a bit more elitist ( pardon my spelling ). In the end a large amount of reverse snobbery ( " they think they're better than us, they play instruments and sing in choir" ) made it highly unfashionable to join in these activities even as part of a class.

The unintentional, I'm sure, indifference to girls not getting involved in music, made sure that music became a rare thing to put any real effort into.

On the other hand, right next door in the boys grammer school ( literally about 100 yards away ) music was very much in the main stream of the school (my brothers both went there ). They had both an orchestra and a choir that toured and students were encouraged to perform at assemblies, anything from classical to rock ( electric guitars and all ). Plays with music, quite often written, arranged and performed by the students, not to mention at least one musical and quite often a panto, a year.

This was a school that was viewed as an ACCADEMIC success. Exam passes were very high and few didn't go on unversity.

What really pointed out the difference to me was one day just before christmas, both schools were working on assemblies for the festivities and I had just come from a rehearsal for ours and had a class to attend in the boys school ( they had merged our sixth forms, 'A' level classes ) . Out of a school of 1300 we had managed to get 20 girls willing to stand up and sing a short medley of songs from the season including "We wish you a merry Christmas". They were willing girls but with a limited amount of time and ability, our efforts were basic but reasonably enthusiastic.

I had a few minute to kill before my class and I heard music coming from the assembly hall in the boys school so I went and listened. Now this wasn't their proper choir ( I found out later ) just the second and third year boys who turn it was to do the assembly. To say they blew our version of "We wish you a merry christmas" away is an understatement I cannot qualify. They sang it in four parts, they sang the chorus in round, but most of all they sang it with a smile on their faces.

What can I say?

TTFN M'Lady P.

Subject: RE: What schools have done to folk music
From: ard mhacha
Date: 18 Aug 01 - 03:38 PM

In Ireland with all 32 Counties participating, we have an amateur sports body The Gaelic Athletic Association and ever Winter an All-Ireland talent competition takes place. It involves two sections of Seniors and Juniors. I am always amazed at the talent in the Junior section, if the irish taditional music dance and singing is a reflection of what is being taught in irish schools then we need have no worries. I can recall with pleasure the delight of two US visitors when I took them to see an early round. I leave it any overseas Catter who has attended an irish Fleadh and seen the talented youngsters performing to give their verdict. Slan Ard Mhacha.

Subject: RE: What schools have done to folk music
From: GUEST,Annegi
Date: 19 Aug 01 - 11:12 AM

I understand that the thread is concentrating on 'music classes' in schools but as a History teacher I have used 'folk songs' both ancient and modern to illustrate an attitude or point of view towards a particular historical event. I have found that even kids who have heard nothing but 'pop' music are moved and understand the sentiments. Also I have found that having a 'folk club' within the school allows students to appreciate a different type of music without having the resentful attitude they might have if they feel it is being 'taught'.

Subject: RE: What schools have done to folk music
From: Kaleea
Date: 20 Aug 01 - 12:39 AM

I taught classroom music for a while and ran away screaming. I taught elementary & secondary band & vocal music. The kids did not want to be there, the parents did not have any control over their children, therefore discipline flew out the window, the administration only wanted to collect their paycheck & didn't care about problems. Traditional music was left out of the textbooks. I learned traditional music at home as well as at school when I was a child. It is rarely taught in the home now. The younger children loved singing games I taught them such as "Way down yonder in the paw paw patch" but older kids only wanted rock. Band music was pop music. I have given serious thought to opening a school of traditional music, but I haven't been able to figure out how to make a living while I build it up.