The origin of the word Bully?

Subject: The origin of the word Bully?
From: Skipper Jack
Date: 26 Nov 03 - 05:30 AM

Anyone know the origin of the word "Bully"?
I know there is a thread relating to the shanty "Bully in the Alley", but no mention has been made of the "Bully" origin. I think one theory is that it was a term used for friend? But how has it evolved to describing someone who intimidates others?

Subject: RE: The origin of the word Bully?
From: mooman
Date: 26 Nov 03 - 05:45 AM

From etymonline.com:

bully (n.) - 1538, originally "sweetheart," applied to either sex, from Du. boel "lover, brother," probably dim. of M.H.G. buole "brother," of uncertain origin (cf. Ger. buhle "lover"). Meaning deteriorated 17c. through "fine fellow," "blusterer," to "harasser of the weak" (1653). Perhaps this was by infl. of bull, but a connecting sense between "lover" and "ruffian" may be in "protector of a prostitute," which was one sense of bully (though not specifically attested until 1706).

Perhaps this helps?

Peace

moo

Subject: RE: The origin of the word Bully?
From: Skipper Jack
Date: 26 Nov 03 - 06:34 AM

Many thanks, mooman. That answers my query, admirably.

Regards.

Dave R.

Subject: RE: The origin of the word Bully?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Nov 03 - 07:17 AM

Cognate with "buddy" maybe?

Subject: RE: The origin of the word Bully?
From: greg stephens
Date: 26 Nov 03 - 07:28 AM

There might be a connection with gaelic buachail(sp??), meaning boy or man. But possibly not, as that is more often connected to some Greek root( as in "bucolic") meaning peasant or country person).

Subject: RE: The origin of the word Bully?
From: Jim McLean
Date: 26 Nov 03 - 12:07 PM

Brewer's Dictionary of Phrase and Fable also gives a meaning '...from Anglo-Saxon bulgian, to bellow like a bull'

Subject: RE: The origin of the word Bully?
From: GUEST,guest tom
Date: 26 Nov 03 - 12:59 PM

McGrath , listen to how Dublin northsiders say the word "brother" - it comes out as budda . Buddy is used in Dublin working class circles all the time to mean friend .I used to think it came from listening to too many James Cagney movies ,but then wondered where Cagney got it from . Then I wondered where bhuda came from -a sanskrit word for brother perhaps ?
There's an irish word "bhul" - or something like that which means to hit or to beat .I've heard people from the west of Ireland talking about the "booly bucks" by which they mean hard cases ,I don't know if there's any connection with bully .
I find it interesting the way words sometimes seem to derive from different sources .Does anyone know if there' s a word for this phenomenenom? A friend told me once that the word "shanty " (as in shanty town ) derived from the Irish shan ti meaning old house . This seemed to make sense but when I looked the word up in Collins dictionary there was a different etymology .

Subject: RE: The origin of the word Bully?
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 26 Nov 03 - 01:09 PM

Guest Tom, you'll often find similar-sounding words from related languages with (surprise) similar meanings. They're indicators of language families (such as Indo-European). Etymology is the accounting for why words mean what they do; Folk etymology is the same thing only with very dodgy science behind it.

Subject: RE: The origin of the word Bully?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 26 Nov 03 - 01:37 PM

Bully already had a variety of usages by the late 18th century. The following from Francis Grose, Dictionary of Buckish Slang, University Wit and Pickpocket Eloquence:
Bully- from bullock- bully, to hector, bounce or bully.
Bully- a cowardly fellow, who gives himself airs of great bravery.
Bully Back- a bully to a bawdy house.
Bully Cock- One who foments quarrels in order to rob the persons quarrelling.
Bully Ruffians- Highwaymen who attack passengers with oaths.
Bully Trap- a brave man with a mild or effeminate appearance, by whom bullies are taken in.

Origin of Word- OED
The I. definition remains a term of endearment or familiarity ("Possibly" Dutch boel: lover, brother, buddy, etc.). Unlikely from Sc. billie, or brother). This meaning came into English use in the 16th century.
II. Hector, and all the meanings given by Grose, above. These appeared in print from 1688, but the quotations lead one to the conclusion that the meanings of ruffian and/or bawdy's protector are earlier.

Bully- a shepherd's cottage- from 16th century in print.
Bully beef- 19th century.

And don't forget Theodore Roosevelt, who popularized 'bully' as a term for great or wonderful back around 1900.

Subject: RE: The origin of the word Bully?
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 26 Nov 03 - 03:06 PM

Just to confuse things further ... Billystick is a club (usually carried by a policeman) called in the UK a truncheon. Related?

Subject: RE: The origin of the word Bully?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 26 Nov 03 - 04:00 PM

Billystick usually is just billy, an American term in print from 1848 in a Ned Buntline story (possibly from the name Billy). But this has nothing to do with 'bully,' nor does the OZ 'billy.' Preceding threads on this.

Subject: RE: The origin of the word Bully?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 26 Nov 03 - 05:10 PM

"Billystick" and "billy", as referred to in the preceding two posts, was "billyclub" in my misspent youth in Minnesota sixty years ago. I never heard either "billy" or "billystick" for this implement until I was well (or maybe it's poorly, but at any rate thoroughly) grown up.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: The origin of the word Bully?
From: GUEST,curious
Date: 26 Nov 03 - 05:46 PM

So does a wooly bully threated sheep?

Subject: RE: The origin of the word Bully?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 26 Nov 03 - 06:00 PM

Which only goes to show, Unca Dave, that you never read any of Ned Buntline's dime novels. He was before my time as well, but is still known for making Buffalo Bill famous- not only the dime novel, but a play in which B. B. Cody himself starred.
Buntline himself was more of a character than anyone he wrote about- in the fur trade, in the navy, once hanged by a lynch mob for murder, but saved in the nick of time, blackmailer, temperance lecturer who got drunk after the lecture, etc., etc. and of course a liar, but all that belongs in another thread.

The term 'Billy' for a policeman's club first appeared in 1848 in his "Mysteries and Miseries of New York."

Subject: RE: The origin of the word Bully?
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 26 Nov 03 - 06:13 PM

Hmmm ... then what of the word billet meaning 'thick piece of firewood, small bar of metal' OED

Subject: RE: The origin of the word Bully?
From: Lanfranc
Date: 26 Nov 03 - 06:56 PM

And then there's "Bully off" = to start a game of field hockey.

And "bully beef" which comes from the French "boeuf bouilli" = boiled beef.

Ain't language wunnerful?

Alan

Subject: RE: The origin of the word Bully?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 26 Nov 03 - 07:01 PM

And "bulli" as in the famous "El Bulli" restaurant in Catalunya, which comes from "boiled" as well......(I think)

Dave
www.collectorsfolk.co.uk

Subject: RE: The origin of the word Bully?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 26 Nov 03 - 08:26 PM

Not much point in digging up words which have nothing to do with bully. One could go on digressing till the sky falls.
billet- started life as a word for a branch, in Medieval Latin, or tree trunk; applied to a thick piece of firewood in the 14th c. (in a work printed in Latin in England). Now applied to chunks of metal, etc. And no, has nothing to do with a ticket, a message, a fish, a list, etc., but is related to billot, which I would like to have a lot of (of which I ...).

Subject: RE: The origin of the word Bully?
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 26 Nov 03 - 09:43 PM

Er ... G'day Q,

Was that billon (alloy of gold / silver / base metal), which my Australian Concise Oxford derives from the French bille = billet ...?

Regards,

Bob

Subject: RE: The origin of the word Bully?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 26 Nov 03 - 11:24 PM

Billot- bullion in the block or bar before being coined. OED. The word may be obsolete.
So many of these words have multiple and intertwined meaning. Bob, trying to trace them all will end up with you billeted at the funny farm.

Subject: RE: The origin of the word Bully?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 26 Nov 03 - 11:25 PM

And without a billy to bile yer tea.

Subject: RE: The origin of the word Bully?
From: LadyJean
Date: 26 Nov 03 - 11:34 PM

Theodore Roosevelt was known to say, "Bully" when he liked something.

Subject: RE: The origin of the word Bully?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 27 Nov 03 - 01:01 AM

Oh, yes, ElBulli was named for the original owners' bulldog.

Subject: RE: The origin of the word Bully?
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 27 Nov 03 - 08:21 AM

Kevin (and anyone else!), I think "buddy" comes from, or at least is cognate with, the Dutch "boetjie" = "friend"(?) or, er, "buddy". Also cognate with NE English "butty" = "buddy".

Steve

Subject: RE: The origin of the word Bully?
From: Fiolar
Date: 27 Nov 03 - 09:32 AM

According to Halliwell's "Dictionary of Archaic Words" (1850) Bully means, and I quote, "A companion, a familiar term of address, as Bully Jack, Bully Bob, etc., formerly in very common use, and not quite obsolete in the provinces, where Butty is now more generally heard. Bully-Bottom, a term applied to a courtesan, and hence an equivoque in Midsummer Night's Dream, act 3, scene 1 and act 4, scene 2, which has escaped the observation of the commentators."
When I was growing up in Ireland, "butty" was commonly used to mean a mate or friend. By the way thge meaning of the word "equivoke" is interesting in itself as it is given "as an expression capable of having more than one meaning; a pun." So even in Shakespeare's tim Bully had a variety of meanings.

Subject: RE: The origin of the word Bully?
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Nov 03 - 12:16 PM

I know these sort of threads can be very speculative but can I throw out something that I've been wondering about since I moved to Ireland and started struggling through a few Irish lessons?
It's about the origin of the word "yes". I was amazed to be told that there is no real Irish word for yes other than the repetion of the verb of the preceeding question , thus: "An bhuil tu thirstig? " meaning   "are you thirsty ?" is answered in the affirmative by "ta im " meaning "I am" .The abbrieviated "ta" is used for "yes". As I say, I was surprised by this ,but then I thought about how my father , a non - Irish speaking Irishman , constructed his replies in English. If you asked him if he was thirsty (which he invariably was) he would say "I am" .You'd never hear him say the word "yes" .
So, I wonder whether other languages might have come to the word "yes" in the same way . Does "aye" come from abbreviating " I am"? What about "Yes" itself ? Does it come from "Je suis" perhaps. And would the French who tend to accentuate the last syllable have got their "Oui" that way?
Or is this just a load of bull?
P.S. Does anyone want to hear my theorey on the origin of the word Bullshite?
Alright,I'll tell youse all anyway. My theorey is that it comes from the Gaelic Beal (pronounced bale) shite. Beal is the Irish for mouth. You used to often hear Irish people talk about gobshite which means the same thing -Mouth shite.

Subject: RE: The origin of the word Bully?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 27 Nov 03 - 12:33 PM

Thread creep, but so be it.

On the subject of "yes", "oui" etc.

There is a section of southern France called the Languedoc. This goes back to the language of that area, which was a major division of Medieval French. That area of France had a higher cultural significance or status than the northern part, was what you might call "the high culture" of France of the time. (Now, finally getting to the subject) The word for "yes" in that language was "oc", whereas the rest of France said "oui". The languages were referred to respectively as "la langue d
oc" and "la langue d'oui". After the violent suppression of the Albigensian heresy, that part of France never really recovered, and the language pretty much went by the wayside, but the name of the province still recalls what they once said for "yes".

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: The origin of the word Bully?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 27 Nov 03 - 01:31 PM

Far off the subject now, but why not?
Yes is from Old English gése, gíse, etc., probably from West Saxon glese, "an affirmative word confined to English," OED.
An interesting note that the pronunciation 'yis,' now dialect, formerly was used in polite speech.
The OED gives many examples of its use through time, starting with Aelfric, c. 1000.

Aye, ay, appeared suddenly about 1575; origin unknown. At first always written 'i.' OED
1576, in Tyde Taryeth no Man- "If you say I, syr, we will not say no."

Should not be confused with another word with the same spelling- ay, aye; meaning always. (OED)

Subject: RE: The origin of the word Bully?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Nov 03 - 02:03 PM

There's a game in which the idea is that a questioner tries to trap the player into saying "Yes" or "No" by firing a lot of questions at them.

It doesn't work too well when the person being asked the questions is Irish, because, even in people who are several generations away from speaking Irish, the tendency to avoid saying "Yes" or "No" tends to persist - even where there is no discernable Irish accent. Quite unjustly, it tends to be taken as being a bit evasive. Looked at the other way, a naked "Yes" or "No", instead of "I did" or "I do not", or whatever, sounds a bit abrupt and even discourteous.

There are other languages like this. In fact Latin doesn't have "Yes" or "No" as such either.

Subject: RE: The origin of the word Bully?
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 27 Nov 03 - 02:42 PM

Watch out for the way things are written vs the way they are spoken -- the former is the bane of etymolocial sleuthing. Language is spoken first and foremost. Writing is a system of abstract symbols that represent language. All those in favo[u]r say eye; aye; I; ai ...

Subject: RE: The origin of the word Bully?
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Nov 03 - 08:31 PM

Eh?... Oh! Ee, bah goom.

Subject: RE: The origin of the word Bully?
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 27 Nov 03 - 09:31 PM

G'day McGrath and Uncle DaveO,

Interestingly, the Romans used either hoc on its own or hoc ille for "yes" ... and it is the various French descendants of this form that distinguished 'langue d'oc' and 'langue d'oil' (the 'oil' becomes 'oui' in modern, academic, French). It's worth musing that a French-speaker in the border areas of the two language forms would probably use the 'full' phrase - as 'oc oil' (something like 'ock ee' to our ears).

How does this match up with the Scots 'och aye' ... and, of course, the US 'OK' (disregarding the tediously invented "official" lie about its Civil War origins) ...?

Regards,

Bob Bolton

Subject: RE: The origin of the word Bully?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 27 Nov 03 - 11:03 PM

O. K. first appeared in 1839 (well before the Civil War) as 'orl Korrect,' a jocular alteration of all correct. In 1839 it was used in the political campaign of 'Old Kinderhook,' a nickname for Martin Van Buren.
1839- C. G. Greene, Boston Morning Post, "He...would have the 'contribution box,' etc. o. k. -all correct- and cause the corks to fly..."
1839- Salem Gazette, "The house was O. K. at the last concert, and did credit to the musical taste of the young ladies and gents."
1839- Philadelphia Gazette, " It is O. K. (all correct) in this quarter."
And many more in the same year in newspaper and magazines across the country. In those days, elections were serious matters, with fights in every saloon. Something said at a major rally would be repeated ad nauseum.

1840- N. Y. Morning Herald, General Jackson: "Tie up them papers," said the General, "mark on them 'O. K...."

The conclusion by A. W. Read in American Speech, vol. 38, 39 was that there was no evidence that the word was from Choctaw or Negro speech. This has been supported by most word students, although some of the thrown-together etymological and gee-whiz compendia continue to raise the issue. Variations such as oke, okay, okeh, okey-dokey, etc. are all later than O. K.

Och aye? No idea. Och is in both Irish and Scots, but the Irish seem to have overcome it to a great extent.
Derivation of the Oc in Langue d'oc from hoc is possible. Don't have the proper references for that, but I would not doubt a relationship.

Subject: RE: The origin of the word Bully?
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 27 Nov 03 - 11:46 PM

G'day Q,

"Derivation of the Oc in Langue d'oc from hoc is possible"

That's the derivation given in my Concise Oxford ... not mere "oc", but also "oil" - the French spelling of "ille". I wasn't really suggesting that the marginal french who put the two terms together - rather pointing out that they already belonged together ... and suggesting the same expression had been variously intepreted by the Scots ... and then the Americans (who were not short of displaced Scots and Irish!).

Your first citation has a strong suggestion of the "folk etymology that tried to explain an existing "OK" as a phoneticisation of a (badly spelt) "all correct" ("orl korrect"). The American obsession with creating domestic origins for expressions and games(and Australians do the same thing ... if with less oficial backing!) is dealt with in (Burnham's ... ?) Dictionary of Misinformation ... a tattered copy of which is somewhere on my dictionary shelves.

Regards,

Bob Bolton

Subject: RE: The origin of the word Bully?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 28 Nov 03 - 01:30 PM

All quotes and opinion about O. K. taken from the Oxford English Dictionary, which I forgot to mention. There is no evidence of the 'word' before 1839 when "Oll Korrect" and O. K. appeared in van Buren's "Old Kinderhook" campaign. I should add that the Tammany Democrats in New York created the "O. K' Club," after Old Kinderhook (M. v. M) who got the name from his home town, Kinderhook, NY.
'All correct,' from which the campaign attempt to rope in the great unwashed was modified, of course, is much older. Van Buren was a disciple of General and President Jackson ("Old Hickory"), who inscribed "all correct" as his comment on the correctness of material in some of his documents, thus Jackson may (but no evidence) have been the inspiration for the campaign slogan. Jackson has even been blamed for the first use of 'oll korrect,' but a paper I have seen quoted has his Ms. 'all correct' properly written.
H. L. Mencken, in his "The American Language," has a long discussion of all the potential origins put forth since O. K. appeared in 1839. His conclusions are those reached by Read, and noted in the OED.

There was a fad for comical abbreviations, some based on mis-spellings, back in the same time period, and this may cetainly contributed. Reminds me of the mindless abbreviations in computer lingo that even appear in posts to the august Mudcat.

I again caution about using 'dictionaries of misinformation,' etc., in researching origins of words, customs or history. Most are pot-boilers published with the hope of making money, not with the purpose of disseminating scholarship.

Subject: RE: The origin of the word Bully?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Nov 03 - 01:45 PM

So is the suggestion that Scots took over OK, but changed the way it was written down? Or that they were already usingthe expression "och aye", and it just happened to coincide with the American invention by chance?

People writing dictionaries often seem to be a lot more dogmatic about these things than the evidence permits. That includes highly regarded dictionaries published by university presses, as well as the ones on the web knocked together by hobbyists.

Subject: RE: The origin of the word Bully?
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 29 Nov 03 - 08:26 AM

G'day, McGrath,

The point I'm making (unwelcome as it seems to be to American notions) is that a form of words meaning "yes" - that "sounds like" (is not "spelled as") OK ( ... och aye ... oc oil ... hoc ille ...) has been used for millenia. A Scot using his affirmative - would be reasonably understood by a Roman! The American "usage" is a (comparatively) recent spelling convention for an ancient standard expression. Literary citations in the OED, and other 'dictionaties on historical principles' don't cite speech - they cite published text.

Regards,

Bob Bolton

Subject: RE: The origin of the word Bully?
From: Jim McLean
Date: 29 Nov 03 - 03:59 PM

I don't think any attention has been paid to the word 'och' as used by the Scots. 'Ach' means 'but' in Gaelic whereas 'och' in Lowland Scttish is a kind of emphatic way of saying 'yes' (aye).
In Paisley where I grew up, there was a tendency always to end a sentence with 'but'. I never realised this until I was in Germany and said 'aber' at the end of each sentence! Perhaps 'och' and 'ach' are related?

Subject: RE: The origin of the word Bully?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 29 Nov 03 - 04:21 PM

The sudden appearance of O. K. in 1839 and its rapid spread argues for a unique coinage, which is supported by the newspapers and speeches of the time as well as a consensus of scholars who have studied the term.
Students of language are well aware of possible preceeding forms; this is a part of language study.

Och is an old exclamation, Ah!, Oh!, Alas!, known in both Ireland and Scotland. Och, Lord! and Och, how? are both early, as well as just plain Ochs! and Och!. There is no known DNA connection to 'hoc.'

I was hoping someone familiar with the history of Och, aye! would comment here.
Ay, aye, I, early forms ai, ei, etc. has an obsolete dialect meaning of ever, always, which bleeds over into och aye (Ah, ever so!, That's right!, right on!, etc.) Someone who has studied the Scottish and northern English material would be much better qualified to comment than me.

In a recent study of speech in Texas, it is noted that oil is pronounced 'all,' but the pronunciation is disappearing in the cities.
Can't remember if Hagler pronounced it 'correctly' in the old TV series (No relation to the all in all correct).

Subject: RE: The origin of the word Bully?
From: Helen
Date: 29 Nov 03 - 04:34 PM

billet - small piece of wood
billet doux - love letters
Does this relate to the "postcards" found at a roman camp in Britain which were written in ink on little pieces of birch?

The links get more and more interesting, or maybe less and less related to real facts??? :-)

One of my favourite books for browsing is my Etymological dictionary. It's interesting following a word through its permutations and back to the starting point again.

Penetration - fenestration (windows penetrate a wall to let light in) - penis (no explanation needed)


Helen

Subject: RE: The origin of the word Bully?
From: GUEST,Strudelbag
Date: 29 Nov 03 - 05:53 PM

Being possible is different from being so. To show that "okay" really comes from "och, aye," one would need more evidence than a superficial resemblance. For example, none of the following conceivable sorts of evidence have been shown to exist after nearly a century of scholarly exploration.

1. A pre-1839 spelling such as "okay" in the north of England (or elsewhere in the British Isles).

2. A pre-1839 record of a Scottish person in North America saying something (mis)spelled as "okay," "OK," etc.

3. A pre-1839 example from anywhere of anyone using "Och, aye!" as an adjective meaning "correct, good, excellent," which is what early examples of "OK" do mean. Instead, "Och, aye!" is solely an interjection.

4. A comment, recorded shortly after the appearance of "OK" in print in Britain (1870s) along the lines of "We've been saying that in Scotland for years". This would at least give plausibility to the argument.

One is also curious to know why generations of American scholars might unanimously wish to "cover up" a Scots origin of "OK". Many Scots emigrants settled in America, and citizens of Canada and the United States of Scots ancestry (including numerous scholars) are quite proud of it.

In the absence of documented pre-1839 evidence, any revisionist theory of the origin of "OK" exemplifies what philosophers refer to as "the appeal to ignorance".

Believe as you will.

Subject: RE: The origin of the word Bully?
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Nov 03 - 06:53 PM

Back to Bully.....as a boy,if some-one said something that seemed like showing off,you'd say "Well , bully for you ". Any one remember that or can relate it to the current thread ?

Subject: RE: The origin of the word Bully?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 29 Nov 03 - 08:09 PM

The Romans, as I am sure all other literate (upper class) people were capable of expanding the application of a word and giving it multiple meanings. Using Helen's example of our word fenestration, from the Latin fenestra, an opening or hole. Romans also used the word to indicate an opportunity, and an occasion, as well as a window.
Penetrale, an inner place, became associated with secrecy, and shrines.

Penis, penitent? No, from different Latin words. At one time a plural for penny in English was Penis. Lots of room here for inventing false associations.

Subject: RE: The origin of the word Bully?
From: GUEST,Lunduner
Date: 29 Nov 03 - 08:35 PM

Penis from heaven?

Subject: RE: The origin of the word Bully?
From: Helen
Date: 29 Nov 03 - 09:24 PM

Also, Q, the different connotations of different English words with similar origins have often occurred through the different languages those words went through to arrive in the English language. Latin was used in Italian, French, German, Spanish, etc etc etc and what started out as a Latin word with a fairly specific meaning may have picked up interesting connotations from different uses in different countries. Like collecting baggage or souvenirs.

Q, are you saying that penis isn't related to penetrate? According to my book "Origins: A Short Etymological Dictionary of Modern English", which I'll admit was printed in 1966, penis and penetrate are traced back to "Penates, gods of the Roman household, gods of the interior, erives from Latin penes, inside, in the interior of......."

The words penetrate, pencil, penicillin, and penis are then explored.

"2. Prob, (probably) with -n- infic, from an IE r* pe-, as in G[reek] peos and Skt (Sanskrit) pasas, penis, is L[atin] penis, the male member, adopted by many Eoropean nations as the Med or tech word; perh, however, despite the vowel change (? imposed as differentiation), L[atin] penis derives from or is, at least, akin to L. penes, inside: 'the withinner, the penetrator'"

Abbreviation:

r = root
* = presumed word, or form of a word, or sense

Helen

Subject: RE: The origin of the word Bully?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 30 Nov 03 - 12:35 AM

The incorporation of Latin root words into English is still going on. Latin was the language of the church and the educated all through the Middle Ages. The language acquired words whose meaning has been lost and are guessed at today. English picked up Latin from the early scholars, from the Roman invaders, from the Norman invaders, from contact with European languages derived from Latin, and, not least, the new Latin added by scholars. I have added a few myself, as has anyone involved in describing the diversity of life, and working in research in most branches of science. Some is Latin borrowed from Greek, so it may be said that these languages are still alive and contributing.

Penicillium is a good example of a modern botanical Latin word, from Latin penicillum, a painter's pencil or brush. A penicil is a small tuft of hairs, scales, etc. The relationship to our word pencil is obvious. A penicillus also is a small tent-like covering for wounds. Penicellate is an adjective for having a small tuft. Penicillin appeared in 1929 in a British medical research journal, a deliberately coined name (by Fleming) for antibiotics derived from the mold Penicillium.

It is easy to invent relationships ("akin or derived from") among old words such as penicel and penis. Pinnate, peninsula as well as penicel are related to penis. Trying to trace Indo-European roots is fraught with speculation. Pen for an enclosure and pen for writing?

Subject: RE: The origin of the word Bully?
From: Helen
Date: 30 Nov 03 - 03:02 PM

Q,

You said "It is easy to invent relationships". I can't see that the relationship has been "invented". What do you mean by "invented"?

Helen

Subject: RE: The origin of the word Bully?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 30 Nov 03 - 03:32 PM

Bad sentence! I had stated the relationship is obvious, and then brought up invented relationships in the same sentence. I believe I was thinking of pen vs. pen, hoc and och, etc., but the sentence confused the whole paragraph. My apologies for the my confusion.

Subject: RE: The origin of the word Bully?
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 30 Nov 03 - 05:27 PM

English couldn't have picked up anything from Roman invaders. Neither England nor English existed at that time.

Subject: RE: The origin of the word Bully?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 30 Nov 03 - 05:34 PM

Why, I heard Queen Bodaceous held a reception in the blue room.

Subject: RE: The origin of the word Bully?
From: Helen
Date: 30 Nov 03 - 10:08 PM

Thanks, Q, that makes it clearer.

Helen