Dodging the Snide and Sleazy Backhander

Subject: Dodging the Snide and Sleazy Backhander
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 16 Nov 03 - 02:50 PM

I wonder what techniques work for you... I'm up the creek without a clue... For spiritual reasons I am unable to quip up the obvious 'nasty retort' that can set a bastard straight... for my experience is clear... putting people down gives my music 'no discernible benefit' whatsoever... and in fact, any negative comment made, turns back on itself ten-fold... As sad as it is to watch people spoiling their own musical integrity by wielding negative comments at others, I do weary of the weight of non expressed countermeasure...

So, how do you deal with the put-downs and back-handed compliments, the negativity, and the envy laden licentious folks? Hmmmmmmm? After all, it is only my good natured belief in these people, that keeps me vulnerable... And the worst of it is, that the few times I've 'nailed' some irritating bloke with an appropriately caustic retort, the end result is far worse, because I want everyone to be their musical best, and the hurtful comments spoil everyone's brilliance... ttr

Subject: RE: Dodging the Snide and Sleazy Backhander
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 16 Nov 03 - 02:58 PM

Are you talking aboout hecklers?

If so, f@ck 'em!

And if you're going to accuse someone of envy, make sure it is in fact envy... Could be, maybe they're not envious... maybe they're just right...

Subject: RE: Dodging the Snide and Sleazy Backhander
From: Midchuck
Date: 16 Nov 03 - 02:59 PM

Clinton, if you ever got heckled by anyone you had any interest whatever in f@cking, you're either very lucky, or very strange.

Peter.

Subject: RE: Dodging the Snide and Sleazy Backhander
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 Nov 03 - 03:00 PM

At one jam- in my home- a 16-year-old girl informed me with an air of triumph that I speed up when I'm singing/playing something. I said, I know. I do it especially when I have a bit of stage fright. I'm trying to get over it. Thank you for telling me. The conversation died.

Subject: RE: Dodging the Snide and Sleazy Backhander
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Nov 03 - 03:05 PM

Why let it worry you?

And in any case, not getting the least bit ruffled is the most effective come back, most times. "Smile - it drives them crazy!"

Subject: RE: Dodging the Snide and Sleazy Backhander
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 16 Nov 03 - 03:06 PM

"you're either very lucky, or very strange"

A little from A... a little from B!

LOL

(actually, a LOT from both!)

Subject: RE: Dodging the Snide and Sleazy Backhander
From: Cluin
Date: 16 Nov 03 - 03:08 PM

Thomas, are you talking about other musicians/fellow band members, etc.... folks you're sharing the stage with?

If so... work that crap out before you get up to perform. While it can be entertaining for a crowd to watch the disintegration of social structure on stage, it is neither a good form of entertainment, nor does it make for good music. If you can't agree to disagree and work together for a common end, It's best to go your separate ways.

Subject: RE: Dodging the Snide and Sleazy Backhander
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 16 Nov 03 - 03:13 PM

"are you talking about other musicians/fellow band members, etc.... folks you're sharing the stage with?"

Ooo... good question!

And damn good advice too!

Subject: RE: Dodging the Snide and Sleazy Backhander
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 16 Nov 03 - 03:13 PM

Clinton's
"And if you're going to accuse someone of envy, make sure it is in fact envy... Could be, maybe they're not envious... maybe they're just right..." is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. Sure, there is a speck in my eye, but there is a mote in yours... I'm only speaking of the obvious... and your caustic doubting retort is doing neither of us any good... yet you seem to feel self righteous and superior... why? ttr

Subject: RE: Dodging the Snide and Sleazy Backhander
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 16 Nov 03 - 03:28 PM

I'm not either... Are you so arrogant to BELIEVE it's envy? Who says you have anything TO envy????

And that's not coming from a 'superior' viewpoint at all...

It's a legitimate question.... As a matter of fact, I'm afriad yer gonna have to clarify your whole issue here a bit...

" there is a speck in my eye, but there is a mote in yours"
I don't even know what that means....

Subject: RE: Dodging the Snide and Sleazy Backhander
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 16 Nov 03 - 03:34 PM

Yes, right on Cluin... I've had some bad experiences lately with 'fellow band members' who are extremely proficient at undercutting confidence if you go any direction but theirs... I'd say it's best to leave these folks to their oun kind...

But I'm bringing this up as a general thing too... Open Mics, Sessions, and Song Circles all seem to validate this behavior, and yet, it is just tragic that people do it... ttr

Subject: RE: Dodging the Snide and Sleazy Backhander
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 16 Nov 03 - 03:42 PM

Lighten up Clinton... seems you can dish it out, but you can't take the mildest point of clarity... In the instances I was refering to, I had second and third opinions... unsolicited... on their own... suggest envy as the motive... Arrogance is not my supposition, it's my shy and aloof countenance... sorry to be so... whatever... Clinton... ttr

Subject: RE: Dodging the Snide and Sleazy Backhander
From: Peace
Date: 16 Nov 03 - 03:43 PM

A speck is a small particle; a mote is around a castle. HA HA HA

Everybody make nice.

I guess it depends on your personality, ttr. And the situation. Sometimes people say the stupidest things--and they don't mean them. You can keep a battery of retorts: "Eff you and the horse you rode in on" or "You're really beautiful when you're angry" or "Excuse me, but there's something hanging from your nose." And sometimes it's best to let it go. I find that "Thank you" beguiles the unwary. Sometimes, just a look works wonders. Had a heckler way back and he didn't want to be quiet. I told the audience it was their dime. They told the heckler to shut up. The guy left. Every remark doesn't deserve an answer. I know where you're coming from, I think, and I admire your perspective.

Subject: RE: Dodging the Snide and Sleazy Backhander
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 16 Nov 03 - 03:47 PM

Well.. o.k... ummm... lemme see here...

There is a brand of humour that involves padded insults and put-downs traded between people who are mature enough to sling and receive 'em and retain the knowledge that no one really means anything... it's an insult for the sake of an insult and a good line... My mates and I do it all the time... And it causes no harm to anyone...

And there are folks, who lacking in confidence in their own abilities, feel the need to boost themselves by putting other people down... Those people are to be given the attention their worth... (Which is to say, none...)

Hecklers... well, they're a natural part of performing live... learn to cope...

"it is just tragic that people do it"
Ya... human nature sucks... but whatcha gonna do? Live in a cave?

And I still maintain, if yer gonna accuse someone of envy, you'd better first make sure you have something WORTH enving...   Otherwise you come off looking worse than they do.....

Subject: RE: Dodging the Snide and Sleazy Backhander
From: Helen
Date: 16 Nov 03 - 03:52 PM

Thomas,

As I see it Clinton was bringing into the discussion the difference between constructive and destructive criticism. Yell at me if I'm wrong, eh, Clinton?

If there is some basis in fact in what the person is saying, although they could be saying it in a nicer, more respectful way, then perhaps the best reply is to do what Ebbie did and thank the person for their constructive comments.

If it is purely destructive then that is a different matter. Saying something like "That's interesting feedback. Thanks!" might do the trick, given that "interesting" can mean a whole lot of things.

I have discovered a really useful comeback for a variety of situations, although I doubt that it would work on stage in response to hecklers. It works well in one-to-one exchanges.

If someone says something which is probably offensive, e.g. sexual harassment, insults, etc, then I say "Excuse me?" with an upward inflection, and emphasis on second syllable. The meaning is like saying, "Did you just say what I thought you said?"

The effect is quite good. If they didn't intend to be disrespectful, or they rethink the effect of their words then they will often apologise. If they meant it but they suddenly realise they may be getting into dangerous territory they will often back off. If they meant it and don't back off then I know that this is aggressive behaviour and I start to work out a strategy to deal with it.

It's a deceptively simple way of throwing down the gauntlet and saying "Do you want to fight about this?"

Helen

Subject: RE: Dodging the Snide and Sleazy Backhander
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 Nov 03 - 04:05 PM

Second of three threads CH is being offensive on.

Had a bad day?

Subject: RE: Dodging the Snide and Sleazy Backhander
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 16 Nov 03 - 04:07 PM

Works for me too Helen... thanks...

But even going there is distracting to me... I am indeed talking about confidence disrupting comments... the kind that are meerly ment to disrupt and be disconcerting... I guess that Clinton is on to my trip when he chooses words like maturity and 'good lines'... I'm sorry, but I just don't get it, and I don't feel compelled to start... My point being that that style of banter and 'humour' is a socially maintained dis-ease, is distructive to others, and benefits noone but the boorish. I have yet to see anyone do it and not look stupid. By my way of thinking, only the supportive remark, the confidence instilling positivity... has value in bringing more people into their own particular brilliance. Why settle for anything less... ttr

Subject: RE: Dodging the Snide and Sleazy Backhander
From: Cluin
Date: 16 Nov 03 - 04:14 PM

Well, if it's hecklers, yes, joke back with them (a bit). But don't get into a pissing contest with them; nobody wins and and the whole place just ends up drenched. Don't let one or two gluttons for attention spoil the gig for everybody. If they are being offensive, somebody out there will call them on it, I've found. It shouldn't be you.

Subject: RE: Dodging the Snide and Sleazy Backhander
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 16 Nov 03 - 04:19 PM

Well TtR...

We do it (The Padded Zingers Humour) because we think it's funny... we get a lot of laughs out of it... No one gets hurt by it... And well, I guess likely we're unconcerned what the outside observer thinks...

" is distructive to others"

How is it destructive to others? (not snide... a legitimate question... I'm trying to grock where yer coming from...)

"By my way of thinking, only the supportive remark, the confidence instilling positivity"

So what you want to be told all the time is "That's nice, dear"???? Better only talk to your mom then, cause she's likely the only one who's gonna do it... I mean, I guess it'a a fair enough ideal to aim for, but who lives in an ideal? Doesn't it mater more, when push comes to shove, the support you get from the people closest to you? What matter then the derision of strangers?

-----------------------------

RB? Nothing to contribute in any meaningful manner? Then kiss off...

Subject: RE: Dodging the Snide and Sleazy Backhander
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 16 Nov 03 - 04:34 PM

Whatever your excuse is for being an ass Clinton, It's just not enough. I ask for help on an issue that is important to me, and you turn it into some kind of self aggrandizing approval of the negation of the very point I'm making... and that sucks, Clinton... as cool as you think you are, I'm definately not in agreement with you. The word 'jerk' comes to mind... ttr

Subject: RE: Dodging the Snide and Sleazy Backhander
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 16 Nov 03 - 04:41 PM

Ya well, jerk this...

I'm trying to understand where you're coming from TtR...   Cause I just don't 'get' what the issue is... It doesn't appear to be about hecklers...

"an issue that is important to me"
I can tell that it's important to you.. I just can't see what the issue is? People say bad things about each other and mean it? Is that it?? Cause yes... yes they do... whatcha gonna do about it?

Subject: RE: Dodging the Snide and Sleazy Backhander
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 Nov 03 - 05:00 PM

Actually CH, you don't seem quite to have got the point.

Your defence for being unpleasant seems to be that other people are unpleasant to you. You think it's "funny" in the same way that some lout or oik in the street seems to think that knowing a series of expletives is "witty". Some chip on your shoulder? Or is there another reason for your reacting in this antisocial fashion? That, not a silly and offensive quip, is a meaningful contribution to a discussion.

Subject: RE: Dodging the Snide and Sleazy Backhander
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 16 Nov 03 - 05:03 PM

Clinton, I'd appreciate it very much if you would not post anymore to this thread... your input here is far too 'mean spirited' and distracting, and I'm just not interested in what your justifications are for this nastiness... Please feel free to start your own "Loving being the snide and sleazy backhander" thread...

...and to any one else that might be actually interested in bringing out the best in the people around us, what would be the best environment for the empowerment of musical expression, and confidence... I am not just speaking for myself in this thread... many people abhore the abusive and the sadistic... and much creativity and expression is lost to the overbearing egotist... what works for you? ttr

Subject: RE: Dodging the Snide and Sleazy Backhander
From: Celtaddict
Date: 16 Nov 03 - 05:12 PM

I agree with Helen, and take an even simpler approach. No matter how offensive someone is or how unacceptable the comment, I smile and say, "Thank you."
If they were trying to be funny, even clumsily, no harm. If they intended to be constructive, even poorly, they think you understand. If they were trying to be offensive, they realize you aren't going to get sucked into it and there really is not an actual response. And if once one says "Thank you," they persist, a pleasantly mild smile (though certainly not a grin) straight into the face, in silence, usually results in them falling silent or in someone else putting a bit of pressure on them, and without adding to the total unpleasantness of the world.
I am lucky enough I do not have to perform, but love it that this works with overbearing supervisors, evangelists, vicious gossips, rowdy children, and even those folks who, when you tell them you are taking a trip, feel called upon to tell you about every plane wreck they ever heard about.

Subject: RE: Dodging the Snide and Sleazy Backhander
From: Peace
Date: 16 Nov 03 - 05:21 PM

ttr: I see at last what you mean. Some people have bad days. They feel better by bringing someone else down. I think we've all been there and done that. (Well, maybe on one on this site, but I have.) Sometimes ya just have to ignore it. A line I picked up somewhere works for me (in retrospect). "You can call a sheep a dog, but you can't make it bark." Maybe as I age I get mellower. In my younger days I'd as soon say Eff Off as anything else. Today, I tend to smile and let it go. Understand, I don't take shit from people just because they feel like dishing it out, but I tend to give the benefit of a doubt more often than not. That isn't just for the stage; it's also for workaday life. I had a student come to class with major attitude. I was new to teaching, and I decided to 'exercise my authority.' Wrong. The kid had just experienced the death of his grandfather, and he was seriously in need of a hug, not a lecture. I learned from that that there is no way to know what another person is experiencing at any given time. I like your way: compassion is a better tool for conflict resolution than anger. Hell, ttr, you could be looking at this the way we all should.

Subject: RE: Dodging the Snide and Sleazy Backhander
From: mooman
Date: 16 Nov 03 - 05:21 PM

I haven't suffered from this problem too much luckily TtR despite gigging up to three times a week in the past. On the rare occasion it has happened, for instance someone telling me in some pompous or unpleasant way that I'm playing a part wrong or using the wrong chords, or that I can't sing or play a particular song because I'm not from that city or country or whatever, I tend not to take much notice and certainly never lose my cool. If anything, these people just make themselves look bad without any help. If, on the other hand, someone suggests an improvement or alternative in a constructive and friendly way I'll always listen and often will take up the suggestion. I don't think you're ever too old to learn even sometimes from a beginner.

Peace

moo

Subject: RE: Dodging the Snide and Sleazy Backhander
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 16 Nov 03 - 05:25 PM

"Your defence for being unpleasant seems to be that other people are unpleasant to you."

Actually, what I'm getting at when I talk about what my chums and I do isn't a defence at all... One cannot defend where there is no attack... It's not like we inflict it on people who aren't 'into' it (or is that what TtR means when saying above, "is distructive to others", and talks about the outside observer??? If that is the case, all I can say is I don't worry about who might be eavesdropping and who might be offended by something I say... If you're offended by what I say to someone else, you're sticking your nose in where it doesn't belong...)

"is there another reason for your reacting in this antisocial fashion?"
Within the context of "Ribbing Humour" it's not antisocial at all... and it's not like my mates and I invented it, or are the only ones who relate to each other in this manner...

I mean it's not like I'm slinging 'insults' at random strangers... I'm slinging them at people who know I don't mean them....

TtR... This is gonna hurt you more than me, but you sound like a wimp, all pouty-face cause someone said a bad thing about ya... (Or because lots of people say lots of bad things about a lot of other people... That's one area I'm confused about in this thread... ) But, I do hope for your sake you find a nice cushy little 'safe space' to be in where can't no one hurt you anymore... (A space where no one hurts anyone else ever again jsut ain't gonna happen ever...) It's just too bad it won't be on a little place I like to call "Earth"...

And what you call mean spirited, some others might call realistic...

Hug a rainbow dude...

Subject: RE: Dodging the Snide and Sleazy Backhander
From: Helen
Date: 16 Nov 03 - 05:29 PM

Thomas,

Have you learned about a technique known as centreing/centering? It was taught in a conflict resolution class I went to years ago. It's hard to say why it works, but it does seem to have a positive effect.

Briefly, the class was asked to stand up and find someone to work with. One person in each pair was asked to stand still and straight, and the other one had to push firmly but not aggressively on the first person's shoulder in an attempt to bend or push them sideways. It was fairly easy to do this for most people.

Then we were told about centreing, which is to hold the palm of one hand on your own lower abdomen, just below your navel, with the fingers held horizontally and flat against your belly. The thumb is just below the navel. Mentally focus on that spot.

Then, the other person tries again to push firmly against your shoulder and it is a lot more difficult to get you to bend or move sideways.

The trick seems to relate to centre of gravity in some way. By focusing lower on your body you can stand more firmly and not be so easily swayed.

The trick also works for non-physical pushing around. If someone starts heckling, and if you have practised the centreing technique previously so that you get the hang of it, you may be able to use it on stage. If you are playing guitar or drums or accordion etc and you cannot physically hold your palm there then your previous practice may enable you to just focus your energy there mentally.

I used this in a situation in a work meeting once and the effects were amazing. I actually, for the first time, had the courage to face up to a very overbearing and formidable boss so that I could tell him one home truth that no-one else was brave enough to tell him (constructive and not destructive feedback). He behaved very differently to me after that and we had a pretty good working relationship from then on.

This probably sounds like gobbledygook, but until you have tried it, you won't know. It would help you to maintain your confidence and keep performing despite attempts to undermine you.

My other thought, Thomas the Rhymer, is to invent a quick rhyme and memorise it for just such an occasion. It doesn't even have to make sense, just something which fills the gap of silence after the heckling comment and leads back into the performance.

The verse I thought of is one which is in the front of a kids' story book which belonged to my father and his siblings.

When silly people say to me,
"Why do you want to go to sea?"
My answer plain will always be
"I only want to go to see!"

Helen

Subject: RE: Dodging the Snide and Sleazy Backhander
From: Peace
Date: 16 Nov 03 - 05:35 PM

Clinton: One of the more gentle people I ever met was an awesome martial artist. Don't make the mistake of confusing gentleness with weakness. Yes, Earth is a rough act. I too came out of a tough neighbourhood (as did half the folks who post here) with its own 'laws' and rules of behaviour. With that and a buck ya can ride the bus. You're gonna do what you're gonna do. But, ease up a bit, will ya? What's the good of being 'right' if if it's wrong to do so.

Subject: RE: Dodging the Snide and Sleazy Backhander
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 16 Nov 03 - 05:36 PM

Thank you Clinton...

Subject: RE: Dodging the Snide and Sleazy Backhander
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 16 Nov 03 - 05:52 PM

"Don't make the mistake of confusing gentleness with weakness."

Would never...

Subject: RE: Dodging the Snide and Sleazy Backhander
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 16 Nov 03 - 06:22 PM

Well now... Clinton has decided to make this thread all about himself, and I'm hoping to get it back on it's feet again... to stimulate the creative expressions in all of us... and IMHO, 'martial arts' aren't really all that effective as a crowd pleaser...

So, once again, what do you use to get around such negativity? ttr

Subject: RE: Dodging the Snide and Sleazy Backhander
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 16 Nov 03 - 06:37 PM

Oh, and BTW... I have no problem with hecklers to speak of... I find them easy to ignore or transcend... I'm talking about competitive put downs... by amateurs and/or creeps... Professionals are almost always supportive... ttr

Subject: RE: Dodging the Snide and Sleazy Backhander
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 16 Nov 03 - 06:53 PM

Thomas,

Smile and thank them for the feedback.

Subject: RE: Dodging the Snide and Sleazy Backhander
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 16 Nov 03 - 07:01 PM

"I'm talking about competitive put downs..."

Example?

Subject: RE: Dodging the Snide and Sleazy Backhander
From: Peace
Date: 16 Nov 03 - 07:01 PM

Copy that.

Subject: RE: Dodging the Snide and Sleazy Backhander
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 Nov 03 - 07:13 PM

A speck is a small particle; a mote is around a castle. HA HA HA Thanks for the laugh, brucie.

For spiritual reasons I am unable to quip up the obvious 'nasty retort' that can set a bastard straight... for my experience is clear... putting people down gives my music 'no discenernable benefit' whatsoever... and in fact, any negative comment made, turns back on itself ten-fold... Thomas the Rhymer, perhaps you are giving yourself a ccontradictory message, one that can't reasonably be expected to work. Could it be that if you tried to empathise with the down-putter that your system wouldn't go into a spin?

Right now I have a bit of a problem in relating to the 16-year-old and her sister. They come from a small village (this is Alaska) and are fairly new in town. They're quite talented singers and songwriters, especially the 16 year old, but they haven't learned jam etiquette.   For instance, one of them has walked over to the banjo player, held out her hand and said, For this song I have to use a banjo. OK? The banjo player was kind of dumfounded but was gracious. Oh. Oh, sure, he said, as he handed it over.

On occasion they will take over a song that someone else is leading until the other person gives up.

We are all older (except for one 13-year-old boy who is coming along great) by 20 to 50 years. I haven't figured out how to stop them so I'm working on how to keep from having them affect me.

Subject: RE: Dodging the Snide and Sleazy Backhander
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 16 Nov 03 - 07:40 PM

Get lost Clinton, I'm not interested in your input on this one... you and your 'mates' obviously have a far different understanding of human nature than I'll ever have... so stop yer torturing, and move on...

Like I said, Clinton's behavior here is a perfect example... Hubris, bragging, pointless one upmanship (concerning tuning, song choice, picking style, 'how good your lady was last night...etc.), nay saying, suggesting 'queer' renditions, opting out on stage, false assertions, and all manner of personal comments that the speaker has no first hand knowledge of, thinly veiled threats, the taking of odd pictures and passing them off as 'how he is'... backstage detuning, a ton of bad advice, plenty of false rumors and out and out lies... attributation of absurd meanings to songs as attempts to smear and delegitemize, the nagsome touting of expensive instruments, to name a few...

I have also seen all of these used on others... and... never to good effect... like hail on a nudist picnic...

It's like... didn't people ever stop to think that they could be a positive influence on their fellow musicians, and that that alone would make a big difference? ...or, is that too wimpy? ttr

Subject: RE: Dodging the Snide and Sleazy Backhander
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 16 Nov 03 - 07:50 PM

Sure, Ebbie, I see your point... I meant 'bastard' in the sense of "an obnixious or nasty person" (American Heritage Dict...)... or more precisely, people who saw fit to behave in a nasty or obnoxious fashion... OK? ttr

Subject: RE: Dodging the Snide and Sleazy Backhander
From: early
Date: 16 Nov 03 - 07:53 PM

looks like you still have a long way to go thomas on dodging the snide and sleazy backhander - some people and it sounds like you are one of em just don't know when to move on or turn a blind eye - i associate with a very large crowd of singers and musicians and have yet to find them difficult except when met with mediocre singers who think they are the bees knees - some people just don't take the hint and thats the only time i have seen them lose patience and then only reluctantly

Subject: RE: Dodging the Snide and Sleazy Backhander
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 16 Nov 03 - 08:01 PM

Ya TtR...

As my bass player is fond of saying when I -am- being a goiter...

"Here's a quarter... go call someone to come build you a brigde, and then maybe you'll be able to get the fuck over it..."

Which is very positive, in that it shows me just what a twit I've been, and at the very least, makes me 2 bits richer...

So... here's a quarter TtR...

You might wanna spend it on a bran muffin...

Subject: RE: Dodging the Snide and Sleazy Backhander
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 16 Nov 03 - 08:03 PM

Thanks for the input early! What part of the world are you mingling in?

Subject: RE: Dodging the Snide and Sleazy Backhander
From: Peace
Date: 16 Nov 03 - 08:06 PM

To all Americans: You guys and gals got quarter pay phones there? Jaysus, we have to put thirty-five cents in. Who carries a quarter AND a dime. Darn good thing for the songwriter, because thirty-five cents don't scan worth a darn. So, while everone's feeling all warm and cuddley, what do you think of those (insert team of choice here)?

Subject: RE: Dodging the Snide and Sleazy Backhander
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 16 Nov 03 - 08:07 PM

I'd need two... what kind of guitar do you play these days Clinton?

Subject: RE: Dodging the Snide and Sleazy Backhander
From: Helen
Date: 16 Nov 03 - 08:10 PM

Sometimes, Thomas, there comes a time when we need to evaluate just how positive an environment is, and whether we still have anything to learn from it, and the people who are creating that environment. Do you need these people? Do they need you?

Negotiation is a good way out of these situations. Negotiating for respect, that is. If you do this then I'll do that, etc. You would need to notify the others that you have some issues you want to discuss with them, and also you would need to have done some careful and thoughtful planning beforehand so that you are clear in what you want to get out of the negotiation.

It is possible that these people just think that they are having fun with you and you might find that they are genuinely surprised that you are getting upset, but that is all the more reason to sit down and talk it all out, in my opinion.

Horses for courses, here, because I don't know the full story, but if you want some practical tips on negotiating, let me know. At the moment, your list of grievances sound a bit like you are being bullied - a little or a lot - and I can talk with you about that, too.

Helen

Subject: RE: Dodging the Snide and Sleazy Backhander
From: Cluin
Date: 16 Nov 03 - 08:13 PM

Well, I have to say that I have met a lot of musicians who are the proverbial "big fish in the small pond" types who were miserable back-biting, passive-aggressive, two-faced ego-maniacs... to the point where I started avoiding socializing with musicians in general. It also made me scrutinize myself (can you go blind doing that?) to see whether I was like that too. So some good came out of it, I suppose.

I also know a lot of warm, supportive, open-minded types who just like to play and revel in the comradery and give-and-take of a band situation. Those are the kind I like playing with, although I can get along with the other type alright too. Just don't let `em get to you. It's as simple as that.

I have also met a few bigger name talents that I really respect as musicians. Some were great folks and some were dickheads. There's always a good mix at all levels.

There are always compromises to make when dealing with others (sometimes you get the b'ar an' sometimes the b'ar gets yew), but remember to laugh and have fun with it and you can't go wrong. Mean people live in a mean world of their own making and they're stuck with themselves. You can walk away. Word gets around anyway...

Subject: RE: Dodging the Snide and Sleazy Backhander
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Nov 03 - 08:17 PM

There's the kind of joking insults which is in my experience are pretty characteristic of how men relate to each other, which isn't mean to hurt and which doesn't hurt - but every now and then it can get used as a kind of cover for saying things that are genuinely meant to hurt, and that's not at all the same thing.

But it can be quite hard to tell the difference sometimes, especially for other people, and treating them as real rather than as joking, that can invite a response about not having a sense of humour.

Tricky dealing with that. With an open attack it's easy enough to ignore it and show you can't be provoked. But with an underhand attack that's not so effective.

There's often a lot of tension around in sessions and bands. I suppose it's because you find yourself playing with people you wouldn't pass the time of day with otherwise.

Subject: RE: Dodging the Snide and Sleazy Backhander
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 16 Nov 03 - 09:33 PM

Helen, Cluin, and McGrath... Thanks for your insight and support! I have encountered these 'techniques' in many different venues... and the fact that I still love to do what I do is testimony to my determination to cut through the BS... But still... Terse and tense do not a comfort make, and I wonder how to change the format in order to help people relax into their genius... everyone has it!... but if we don't bring supportiveness to the table, some slightly nervous persons are not going to have their 'breakthroughs' because of a few (or one) nervous rascals... Hey, I'm serious... This is not just about me and my 'sensitive' rainbow ideals (what a joke)... but the embellishment of existing, but latent talent... whether or not it will ever be bound for the 'limelight'... ttr

Subject: RE: Dodging the Snide and Sleazy Backhander
From: kendall
Date: 16 Nov 03 - 09:53 PM

I find that humor works better than confrontation. In the case of a heckler, one of the best remarks I ever heard was "That's ok, I remember my first beer."

As far as someone saying, "You are leaving out a chord." or "That's not the right words". If they can show me the RIGHT way, I just accept it as the truth, and I can't argue with the truth. I might reply, "Well, you learn something every day." Don't let them see you sweat. Most of all, don't let them reduce you to their nit picking attention demanding level. CH, that was NOT aimed at anyone in particular.

Subject: RE: Dodging the Snide and Sleazy Backhander
From: Cluin
Date: 16 Nov 03 - 10:36 PM

kendall, Wasn't the "first beer" line attributed to Doc Watson?

Subject: RE: Dodging the Snide and Sleazy Backhander
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 16 Nov 03 - 11:44 PM

Thanks kendall excellent thoughts... If they work for you, I'll stick em into my wee bag o tricks...

Oh, and BTW... Of the few times I've aroused any kind of envy... I was totally oblivious (and I still am...). I was writing about the general sense of envy, that I've seen in others, and felt myself... However you decide to take it (CH), you will never see me gloating... I'm simply trying to understand what I see as a potential problem. Like I said at the beginning, I just haven't got a clue... ttr

Subject: RE: Dodging the Snide and Sleazy Backhander
From: Gurney
Date: 17 Nov 03 - 02:46 AM

I've no problem with hecklers, I was one myself once, in a supportive sort of way, of course.
I also have a small collection of retorts that represent a generation of years in folk-clubs, they are not all original with me, some are, and they are mostly funny enough to shut hecklers up without them waiting for me outside.

I haven't looked, has there been a thread specifically on retorts to hecklers and chatterers?