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Investing in Traditional Music. Why?
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Subject: Investing in Traditional Music. Why? From: Rick Fielding Date: 26 Sep 00 - 01:07 PM I got back from out of town (thanks Ottawa and MacDonald's Corners folks) to face a mountain of e-mails....as usual, most of them, junk. One interesting piece came from a fairly recent Mudcatter (can't recall if he's a member) asking about something I said in a thread about improving your playing skills. I've checked with him to see if he was cool about me starting this thread, cause it's something I'm pretty passionate about, and he was ok with it. (don't wanna embarrass newbies) He took my suggestion about buying some of the recordings of musicians who influenced HIS hero, but was unsure why Doc Watson would have been so taken with the 30s efforts of the Carter Family. Quote "Nobody in that band is really that good a picker". Well, first of all, Doc would have been verrry impressed that the kind of music (old time ballads, Gospel songs, and Country Blues) that his own relatives and friends picked on their porches, between farmwork, was actually ON a record. He'd hear VERY little of it on the radio, so it was extra special. He certainly wouldn't have been looking for "hot picking", but for music that went straight to his heart, and made him want to sing and play it himself. (the same way I felt when I heard Leadbelly) Strictly from a technical point of view, Maybelle Carter was an innovative, and supurbly creative country musician, but M.D. it'll take your ear a bit of time to realize that. The question is, do you want to invest that time? Most don't. Nothing wrong with that. I've invested virtually no time in learning computer skills (and I suffer for it, don't I Joe?) (Not as much as I suffer, Rick...-Joe-) and still can't fix a damn thing on my car, although it may be the most important piece of equipment in my thirty year music career. BUT....as I said in the other thread (on playing like Doc) without that commitment and investment, you may learn to play the same notes that he does, but you'll have no understanding of a vital life-changing music. We've got almost instant resources now that Doc, or Maybelle, or John Carson, or Eck Dunford, or Charlie Patton, or Dave Macon wouldn't have dreamed of. I don't just mean recordings and videos either. Right here on Mudcat there are dozens of good folks who've MADE that investment in traditional music, and are ALWAYS willing to share it.....when asked. They're not as easy to find as they were when I arrived....so maybe you have to make an INVESTMENT here as well. You tell me that you're blown away at your first taste of Merle Travis......well I was too! He's so bloody good (and fast) it's scary. but wait til you hear Mose Rager, and Ike Everly...and if you're still interested maybe I'll feel that it's worth my time to make you a tape of Etta Baker, or Blind Blake, or Dick Justice. Trust me, by that time you'll be really starting to appreciate Maybelle, or Ernest Stoneman, or Cousin Emmy, or Kilby Snow, or even a man I only discovered about 6 years ago, Rev. Alfred Karnes. Believe I'm no "purist". I love Dylan, Rachmaninoff, Gershwin, Beiderbecke, Scruggs, Elvis and the Beatles, but old time Country and blues music never gets dated for me. It's still got a strangle hold on my soul. I love the "flash" of a hot picker, but the best investment I ever made was learning "who" the pioneers were, and "why" they HAD to play. As I said before, there are lots of folks here who've MADE that investment (shit, I'm Canadian...it was years before I saw old time musicians "in the flesh"), ask......they'll steer you in the right direction. Rick |
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Subject: RE: Investing in Traditional Music. Why? From: catspaw49 Date: 26 Sep 00 - 02:00 PM Rick, I hate to be the first to respond to this, but I don't think there's much left to be said. that's a fine piece of work you've written and I wouldn't change a thing. Simply superb. To add my half a cent's worth............. There is a certain joy to be had from listening to people like Maybelle Carter or Jean Ritchie for that matter. I like great pickers, but there is almost always an element of honesty missing somewhere. I read the other thread and thought then what good advice it was to listen to the people who influenced Watson or Travis. To those folks who are "into flashy pickin'" I suppose that these people may seem crude. I think it just seems real. Gawd knows there are better dulcimer players around then Jean Richie ever was, but her playing and her voice deliver the song better than any flash player will. The tape Sandy has of her sister Edna always strikes me as not the best technical playing, but the best use of an Appalchian dulcimer as accompaniment that I have ever heard. Building on THAT makes a great player. Your friend Larkin Bryant may be the best extension of that "sound." Sorry......Your thoughts on this are really great. didn't mean to screw them up with drivel. It is an interesting topic. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: Investing in Traditional Music. Why? From: catspaw49 Date: 26 Sep 00 - 02:01 PM Geeziz....I gotta' prufreed mor/ Spaw |
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Subject: RE: Investing in Traditional Music. Why? From: Giac Date: 26 Sep 00 - 02:21 PM Well-voiced, Rick and Spaw - certainly struck chords with me. ~:o) |
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Subject: RE: Investing in Traditional Music. Why? From: M.Ted Date: 26 Sep 00 - 03:24 PM I gotta jump in on this-though Rick said it all, just to add that the traditional music has a feel and sound to it, and the number and and speed of the notes are incidental to it--Judging music by number and speed of licks is like judging Haute Cuisine by the number of ingredients in it-- |
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Subject: RE: Investing in Traditional Music. Why? From: wildlone Date: 26 Sep 00 - 03:55 PM I have noticed while browsing in my favourite record shop [the whole wide world] in Crewkerne Som, that more and more of the albums I got in the 70s are being re-issued on CD. here is a shameless plug. I have found that Dave Longly will really put himself out to help a customer,and Meg makes a great cup of coffee. |
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Subject: RE: Investing in Traditional Music. Why? From: Mark Clark Date: 26 Sep 00 - 04:57 PM Let me echo all the accolades for Rick's wonderful essay. He does seem to have a way of getting right down to the crux of the matter. Like most folks who frequent these parts, I enjoy many different types of music. Still when I listen to folk music, I get at least as much pleasure from listening to LOC field recordings and "primative" singers as I do the slick commercial folk-oriented acts. Probably more. I listen because I'm attracted, musically, to the work of those long ago artists, not because because of some percieved historical importance. I don't care what motivates people to listen to (or eschew) any particular music but, from my point of view, if the Carter Family or John Carson, or Eck Dunford, or Charlie Patton, or Dave Macon or Ma Rainey or Blind Lemon Jefferson or Huddie Ledbetter or Robert Johnson or LOC field recordings or... don't just reach out and grab you, then I'd say your interest in folk music is more as an alternative pop music and has very little to do with honest expression in a folk idiom. "Of course that's just my opinion..."""I could be wrong." - Mark |
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Subject: RE: Investing in Traditional Music. Why? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 26 Sep 00 - 05:04 PM A tune is a kind of story, just a different kind of story. Technique that helps tell that story is great, being used for what it's there for. If it gets in the way, it's a drag, however clever it is.
If you were talking about a singer or a storyteller, and it was all about how fast they got the words out, it'd seem to suggest you weren't that interested in the song or the story. |
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Subject: RE: Investing in Traditional Music. Why? From: mousethief Date: 26 Sep 00 - 05:15 PM This reminds me of a delightful quote from Till We Have Faces by C.S. Lewis: Even people who hate music will flock to hear a man play the harp, if he plays with his toes.
Alex |
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Subject: RE: Investing in Traditional Music. Why? From: GUEST,Kernow John Date: 26 Sep 00 - 05:39 PM I discovered this thread while listening to one of the Topic series Voice of the People CD's. Although a different type of traditional music from that talked about by Rick I can only give his same advice, invest some listening time and your ears will begin to hear the skills of timing and delivery posessed by some of those early singers. Sure there is speed in some of the reels and the jigs but never at the expense of missed notes or ragged timing. A worthwhile thread Rick, thanks. KJ |
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Subject: RE: Investing in Traditional Music. Why? From: catspaw49 Date: 26 Sep 00 - 05:47 PM Mark, your last paragraph adds something I have tried to say in various ways, but you do a beautiful job. Nothing wrong with liking pop, but folk exists as an alternate form for many. Thanks for that paragraph. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: Investing in Traditional Music. Why? From: Mbo Date: 26 Sep 00 - 05:53 PM ...then I'd say your interest in folk music is more as an alternative pop music and has very little to do with honest expression in a folk idiom. Guess that's me. |
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Subject: RE: Investing in Traditional Music. Why? From: mousethief Date: 26 Sep 00 - 05:58 PM What is pop but an alternative folk music? There is a lot of back-and-forth between the "roots" of present-day pop music and folk. C&W and blues arose from folk roots, and gave rise to rock-and-roll. Many of the broadway tunes of the tin-pan-alley days, and the minstrel tradition, which together (in part) gave rise to the pre-rock pop of the 40s and 50s, were written by underpaid and uncredited black artists with at least one foot very solidly in the "folk" tradition. Then of course there was the direct injection of "folk" -- thanks in large part to Harry Smith and his devotees -- into the pop music of the 50s and 60s. Modern euro-american "pop" very definitely has roots in folk. It may have grown far from its roots (goodness knows!) but it's just as true to call "pop" an "alternate folk" as the other way around. So it seems to me.
Alex |
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Subject: RE: Investing in Traditional Music. Why? From: Uncle_DaveO Date: 26 Sep 00 - 06:03 PM Know thyself. |
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Subject: RE: Investing in Traditional Music. Why? From: Áine Date: 26 Sep 00 - 06:23 PM First, thank you so much, Rick, for this thread. I hope it proves to be as interesting as the promise of your initial posting. "Nobody in that band is really that good a picker". I have to smile a bit at that comment. I heard a little story on the radio today talking about the MP3 folks vs. the Big Music Industry, and one comment was made that if all the tape recorders, CDs, albums, cassettes, etc. disappeared one day, folks would eventually start making their own music again; because music is such an essential part of what makes a human being. We tend to forget how small the amount of time it has been that music has been reproduced and distributed to a mass market. In the timeline of humankind, it doesn't even amount to a blink of the eye. However, folks have been even quicker to forget that music originally came from something other than a machine -- themselves. And that music was played by individuals. And when the music was shared, it wasn't for the reason of "listen to me", but, "this is lovely music, listen and enjoy it with me". Therein lies the soul of folk music, and that's what makes it magical and beyond compare. -- Aine |
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Subject: RE: Investing in Traditional Music. Why? From: mousethief Date: 26 Sep 00 - 06:29 PM Well said, Aine. A light shines though your words.
Alex |
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Subject: RE: Investing in Traditional Music. Why? From: Joe Offer Date: 26 Sep 00 - 06:36 PM Gee, Rick, you sure know how to make believers out of us. There is so much good traditional music coming available on CD, and it sounds so good. It's not only the Harry Smithg Anthology - Kernow John mentioned the Topic "Voice of the People" CD's, and there's all the great Lomax stuff coming out, and the Frank and Anne Warner CD's. Then there are the two-disc sets from Yazoo that Sandy speaks so highly of. Sandy speaks so highly of the Yazoo stuff, and he's right in praising them - but he seems to forget to mention his own Ballads and Songs of Tradition and Brave Boys. I used to expect pops and scratches and hisses when I listened to old recordings - but modern remastering has done wonderful things. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: Investing in Traditional Music. Why? From: Jim the Bart Date: 26 Sep 00 - 07:12 PM One thing that must be considered whenever recommending music to someone is that there are two parts to the equation - the music and the listener. The person listening to the music has to be ready to hear what is there to be heard. If someone's whole experience of the guitar is Jimi Hendrix, they are not going to think that Wildwood flower is that impressive. There is a way to connect people to styles of music that are totally outside of their normal listening range, but it has to be done in increments. I think of it as "tuning your ears back". Listening to updated renditions of the old styles is one way to help the process. What you want to do is develop the taste for what is essential in that music, and that your ears might not yet be attuned to. Part of the problem with listening to source material is often the quality of the sound. Unless you're lucky enough to get re-mastered recordings of early performers, the "tonal" quality is often lacking. The recordings themselves can sound flat and put you off. Your ears hear something recorded on an old 78 (and transferred to tape or CD) and compare it to modern recordings and finds it lacking. I find that a recording like "Will the Circle be Unbroken" is a good connecting link to acts like the Carter Family and Merle Travis. I think the Dirt Band did a great service by getting some of these source artists to revisit those songs. It helped to attune a whole bunch of people to that music. How many of the people in this forum discovered the pure joy of Hank Williams songs through covers of Hank by the Dirt Band and Linda Ronstadt? Or Muddy Waters through the Stones? Or Robert Johnson through Eric Clapton? Eventually, if you follow the process and pay attention, you inevitably begin to like the originals better than the covers. The ungrateful among us then turn around and criticize the son because he doesn't measure up to the father. Two of the most difficult things in this world are to swallow something brand new whole and to put yourself in somebody else's shoes. You got to ease into these things. At least that's the way it appears to me. |
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Subject: RE: Investing in Traditional Music. Why? From: death by whisky Date: 26 Sep 00 - 08:59 PM Music evolves. I dont know most of the artists mentioned before. From an Irish trad perspective,you need to listen to the solo artistse e.g Paddy Glackiin,Joe Burke, to hear the "pure" tune and then to any of the numerous modern versions. |
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Subject: RE: Investing in Traditional Music. Why? From: Tinker Date: 26 Sep 00 - 09:01 PM So folks like me can say THANK YOU. My request for "appropriate" music for my basement speakeasy, led me down a wonderful path of lyrics and midi files, and the Yazoo cataloge. But perhaps more importantly, after a month or so of lurking on the more serious threads where I simply sit and listen in awe. I found myself impatiently spouting at museum staff who's entire "roots of hip hop" was one Cab Calloway CD, a Zoot suit, and Sheet music to Minnie the Moocher. Do you have the Yazoo Roots of Rap Cd ? No, but do you know where to get it? And I did. I could give them a web site on the spot and fax further information for Jass as well as Yazoo. And the GREAT picture book i see the rhythm by Michele Wood & Toyomi Igus. Instead of being angry, I could help educate. Primitive, but they were thankful and perhaps it will help someone else explore the glorious road that has been travelled. Keep on Keepin on guys it really means alot. Tinker |
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Subject: RE: Investing in Traditional Music. Why? From: Rick Fielding Date: 26 Sep 00 - 09:17 PM I spent my whole drive back from Ottawa listening to Bix Beiderbecke (with the Wolverines, Goldkette, etc.) and just gloried in the "bounce" he gave those bands. Then I played Louis Armstrong's "Hot Five" recordings to once again hear where he GOT that bounce. 'Course you can also hear how much Frankie Trumbauer got from Johhny Dodds. I know it ain't folk music (by some folks' definition) but it's the same feeling I get when I listen to a modern balladeer (like Sandy Paton) and then check out Horton Barker once again. Yeah, without that "investment" I wouldn't have had one twentieth the fun out of music that I do. I was expecting someone to come in and say "Don't be such a nurd, guy. Ya don't need to anylize the music to have fun"! But for me, all that digging is HUGE fun. Now if I'd only invested in basic domestic skills, I could clean our furnace out and we'd have some HEAT tonight! Rick |
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Subject: RE: Investing in Traditional Music. Why? From: Joan Date: 26 Sep 00 - 09:27 PM You said it, Rick. The old time porch pickers and parlor singers played for the songs, not for publicity and applause. Nothing wrong with a bit of appreciation, since it just reinforces our notion that we're doing a good job, but the first and last thing is making the words and music that live for us, come alive for the listeners. Listening to the traditional singers is an investment in understanding that sometimes less is more, that a fast, hot instrumentalist isn't necessarily the best interpreter of the music, and that hearing someone who's a master at passing along a feeling and a story can be a better performer than a big-name star. Joan |
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Subject: RE: Investing in Traditional Music. Why? From: dwditty Date: 26 Sep 00 - 09:56 PM When I started to get interested in blues, a friend gave me a Robert Johnson record. It was a couple of years before I finally sat down and listened to the music that was under the poor recording (by modern standards), scratches, etc. But man, oh man, it was sure worth the effort. Now, Tampa Red and Georgia Tom singing Tight Like That, Big Bill doing Glory of Love, early John Hurt, Scrapper Blackwell, oh the list goes on...they all bring me such joy to hear. Yeah, all the fancy licks weren't there, but if you make the effort to really hear (translation: feel) the music, you will be amazed. Take John Hurt. His music sounds so simple, but the subtleties are astounding. Not any licks learned in theory class or anywhere else. Just pure heart in every note. I suggest listening to Joseph Spence - the subject of recent threads. To the casual ear, it sounds awful (the word used by several people when I have played his records). There was more music in his right hand than any 10 players I could name today. A good place to start is his "Santa Claus Is Coming To Town." When I listen to old recordings, I try to picture the faces of the singers. If you get videos of the old stuff, it helps, but, frankly, the imagination works just fine. Don't try to listen to the music while you are doing anything else at first. Just relax and let it fill you. Believe me, you will know when you find it. dw |
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Subject: RE: Investing in Traditional Music. Why? From: Seamus Kennedy Date: 26 Sep 00 - 10:03 PM When I was growing up in Belfast, the McPeake family were neighbours down the road. We enjoyed sessions and concerts in St. Mary's Hall, but we never considered M' da and Francie and Kathleen and James stars. They were incredible musicians with non-musical day jobs who were part of the fabric of the community.They had super stage presence and humourous patter between songs and tunes. Even when they started getting gigs around the world and fame deservedly came to them, they were still our neighbours and friends who made great music. When I became a pro myself here in the States, I realized how truly magnificent the McPeakes were, and I could relate to the time, effort and practice they put into their instrumentation and harmonies. This made me practice harder, to hone my craft and become a better musician. When I hear my heroes such as Tommy Makem and the Clancy Bros, the Dubliners, Doc Watson, the Sons of The Pioneers, Chet Atkins, Merle Travis, I feel the same way. It's another push in the right direction. All the best Seamus |
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Subject: RE: Investing in Traditional Music. Why? From: catspaw49 Date: 26 Sep 00 - 10:34 PM Well gee Rick, I hate to see this thread ruined for you so............. Don't be such a NERD guy....Ya' don't have to analyze the music to have fun! There ya' go..........Feel better now? Happy to help. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: Investing in Traditional Music. Why? From: Big Mick Date: 26 Sep 00 - 11:23 PM Great thread, buddy! Our young friend's reaction is not surprising. I can remember thinking the first time I heard Maybelle sing that I would rather be listening to Donovan or PP&M. 30 years later, having been to war, marched in protests, a day or two in the hoosegow, experiments with everything from acid to old time religion, a ton of Union Organizing, and generally trying to get folks to use collective action to change the face of it all..................when I listen to Maybelle and kin now, well......I guess I hear the echoes of a lifetime of folks and experiences that have touched me and affected me, and sent me on my way. That is what the great ones do and it is almost primal. I believe that when one hears that old woman sing "Will (or Can) The Circle Be Unbroken", they are hearing one of the most perfect examples of voice and message that has ever existed...............It awakens all the old ones that reside within Great thread, Rick. Big Mick |
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Subject: RE: Investing in Traditional Music. Why? From: Mark Clark Date: 27 Sep 00 - 01:07 AM I'll never forget visiting the Grand Ole Opry c. 1964. At that time the Opry was still in the Ryman Auditorium and we all sat on hard wooden church pews. It was a standard Saturday night show and included some Opry regulars known as much for their sequined suits as for their musical achievements. These, I thought, were the performers all these country music fans had come to see. The Opry used to be just a radio show so appearances didn't matter too much. Performers and stage crew were wandering all over the stage during segments and the guy with the snare drum on a stand would walk up behind every performer and lay down the same groove with a brush. Sometimes you had to look carefully to see where the featured performer was standing. In the middle of all that confusion, they introduced Mother Maybelle Carter as a guest in someone's sponsored segment. Mother Maybelle came out wearing a simple, tasteful dress looking very small amid the crowd on stage. She was carying her autoharp as she walked to the mike and softly announced that she would play "Liberty." (I think that was the tune.) As the familiar notes and rhythms of her playing filled the auditorium you could tell that something was changing. The audience went very quiet and eventually even those on stage stopped their conversations to listen. When she finished she gave her characteristic shy bow and the audience literally errupted with applause. It was easily the biggest hand anyone got that evening. It turned out that Mother Maybelle, and what she represented, was what all those people had come so far to see. The rest of it was just some stuff they heard every day on the radio. The odd thing was that the Opry stage managers couldn't get her out of there fast enough. You'd have thought they had the old hook. A couple of them grabbed her and "helped" backstage very quickly so yet another sequined suit could croon his latest country hit. That experience gave me a whole new outlook on country music fans and the values they hold. When they thought of Mother Maybelle, they weren't thinking of "primative" singers or the history of American traditional music. They were just grateful to hear the music of a lady they regarded as a true star and a giant of the music world. I guess you had to be there. - Mark |
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Subject: RE: Investing in Traditional Music. Why? From: Rick Fielding Date: 27 Sep 00 - 10:58 AM Mark, Jeezus H! Thank YOU. A wonderful story. Sums it up very nicely. I doubt that any of us "nurds" have anything against the "spangled suits", 'cause that includes both Hanks, Ernest, Little Jimmie, Porter, Faron, Merle(!!), Loretta, Dolly......and these folks also sang and played their hearts out. 'Course the Opry Management were trying to keep the ratings up as the times changed and wanted to attract the younger audiences (who are now the old farts). It's just a fact of life. For years, Sam and Kirk McGee, The Crook Brothers, Curley Fox, Mother Maybelle and several more of the "old timers" would get little spots on the "modern" (60s) Opry, and of course many in the audience didn't know who the hell they were. It's the same today. In between Garth Brooks, Vince Gill,Ricky Skaggs, Shania Twain etc. (who are all superbly talented people) you still get Skeeter (who can barely sing anymore) Jean Shepherd, Little Jimmie, Hank Thompson, Charlie Walker, George Jones, Stonewall Jackson etc. These are now the "old timers", who get NOT ONE BIT of radio airplay, and are reduced (sort of) to playing triple bills at rural County Fairs. Lots of them come to Canada, and even though they only draw one tenth of the audience they would have thirty years ago.....you should SEE the response from that audience! They remember. For the last 25 years Kitty Wells has come twice a year to Ontario. Not to Toronto (a city of over five million) but 40 miles out of town to some road house bar. The folks still call her "Miss Kitty" and she always ends with "It Wasn't God Who Made Honky Tonk Angels". Her Hubby Johnny Wright, would still get some knowing applause when he'd sing some old "Johnny and Jack" (Jack Anglin was killed in a plane crash 35 years ago) songs. If anyone thinks it's silly to think of this as "traditional" music, I can understand your point, but I see a direct line from Fiddlin' John Carson, Sid Harkreader, Gid Tanner, and Arthur Smith, through Bradley Kinkaid, Hank Snow, on up to Molly O'Day, Loretta etc. If anyone thinks that "digging around the roots" of this music ain't a ton of fun, they're wrong. Mick said it's "almost Primal". Yeah, that's a good way of stating it. Old music has gotten me through a lot of difficult times. I can remember finishing up a night in a bar, having sung "Danny Boy" three times, and "Coulda Been The Whiskey", then going back to my room and putting on Maybelle, Sarah and A.P. singing "The Hills of Home" and thinkin' "Yup, that's the stuff I love"! Rick |
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Subject: RE: Investing in Traditional Music. Why? From: GUEST,Russ Date: 27 Sep 00 - 11:26 AM I like this thread. You all might be interested in Dwight Diller's take on this topic. To paraphrase any number of pronouncements I've heard him make on the subject, he insists that the first and most important step in learning to play traditional music is "Listen to the old people." He says that they can be trusted in a way that revivalists cannot. He also feels that we should be very careful when learning from any musician who is trying to make a buck, including, oddly enough, Dwight Diller. |
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Subject: RE: Investing in Traditional Music. Why? From: catspaw49 Date: 27 Sep 00 - 11:42 AM That IS A GREAT STORY MARK!!!! You say it all. And Rick, I agree with you on the older "Opry" artists. As I was just thinking of the "Museum of Appalachia" on another thread, this story pops up. When we were there at Norris last summer, a TV "Happy News" guy out of Knoxville had Curly Fox on as his interview. At ninety whatever, he still fiddles pretty well although he doesn't like doing it (not up to the old standard) but it was damn good nonetheless. The jagov interviewer though treated him as some doddering old fool and I was pissed until Curly told a joke, very dry and droll, but pointed at the TV guy. Needless to say the jerk didn't get it and was confused by it. After a few seconds Curly said, "That's a joke son." Cracked me up. The second day we were at the Museum of Appalachia, there were several folks in various places playing away and I really enjoyed listening and talking to them. Best though was this 80 year fiddler who certainly didn't meet today's "flash" standards, but he was just great! Better yet, he was the one that ALL the kids related to. Finer players were around, but the kids gravitated to him right away, not just my kids....ALL the kids. I wondered then, and I don't want to put too fine a point on it, but did they hear that "truth" in his playing? He had no line of patter, just let his fiddle do the talking. Made me wonder. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: Investing in Traditional Music. Why? From: mousethief Date: 27 Sep 00 - 11:49 AM So slap me upside the head as an ignorant and unfolky mouse, but is there a thread that has a list of must-have "traditional" cd's? Or did I ask this already?
Alex |
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Subject: RE: Investing in Traditional Music. Why? From: Alice Date: 27 Sep 00 - 12:01 PM Hear plain folks sing and play the tunes and songs in Ireland that are the roots of folk tunes and songs in America. John Moulden's Ulstersongs Some of my most favorite recordings are those done in someone's kitchen, not in a studio. Alice |
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Subject: RE: Investing in Traditional Music. Why? From: IanS Date: 27 Sep 00 - 12:12 PM I think that what you call "traditional" is a very subjective thing and impossible to define in terms of black and white. As an example I have noticed already in this thread that Paddy Glackin has been cited as a traditional player yet to me he is not quite a true traditional player. It is true that he has a great deal of respect for the earlier generations of players such as Johnny Doherty and yet his musical partnering (Donal Lunny and Jolyn Jackson) and therefore his musical aims somehow sit him just outside the tradition. A modern player such as James Byrne while stylistically similar to Glackin (thought technically perhaps not as perfect) is to me a "real" traditional player. |
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Subject: RE: Investing in Traditional Music. Why? From: GUEST,Pete Peterson at work Date: 27 Sep 00 - 01:46 PM this thread certainly has been fun to read! one comment-- the people we honor most as the "traditional" players-- to me they seem to be innovators with a traditional style! the ones I most honor: Bill Monroe, all three Carters, Charlie Poole, Leadbelly, Woody, all of them sounded like their roots, yet you knew it was their music; they wre adding something else! two questions: (1) Rick, in your list of "spangled suits" at the Opry, you said "Faron" a name I don't recognize. What have i been missing? (2) also to Rick-- could you let us know the next time Kitty Wells comes to Ontario? I bet I could organize an expedition. I would second Dwight Diller's comments although I have to say that I have learned much more listening to old records than I have lsitening to older musicians directly; YMMV. Some of the revivalists have done a wonderful job of learning and listening-- start with Cohen, Seeger (M) Paley and Schwarz; go on to Mac Benford and Jody Stecher, lesser known but wonderful is VGO down in Florida or Clark Buehling in Arkansas. . . Kay Justice and Ginny Hawker. . . where to stop? |
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Subject: RE: Investing in Traditional Music. Why? From: GUEST,Russ Date: 27 Sep 00 - 02:23 PM Lots of good points being made, but some of the complimentary things said sound a shade left handed. I've been listening to the people like Jean Ritchie and the Carter Family for about as long as I have been making my own music Oddly enough, the longer I play and the longer I listen, the better they get. How do they do it? The first time I heard the Carter Family it was "love at first listen" but,to be honest, I too thought, "Nobody in that band is really that good a picker" WRONG!! of course. They're incredible, but their musicianship is at a level that the listener has to bring a lot to the table musically to be able to recognize it. It has taken me a few years to reach the point in my own musical development to be able to recognize such greatness. Perhaps it is a good thing that as a musical newbie I didn't realize just how good by musical heroes were. I might have given up in despair and burned my guitar. |
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Subject: RE: Investing in Traditional Music. Why? From: mousethief Date: 27 Sep 00 - 02:42 PM I know it's hard to define "traditional" but let's say... stuff recorded before 1940. Can anybody give me a "must buy" list?
Alex |
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Subject: RE: Investing in Traditional Music. Why? From: catspaw49 Date: 27 Sep 00 - 02:52 PM Faron Young (I know I'm not Rick ) was a popular performer in the "spangled suit" days and I'm sure you'll remember him from "Hello Wall" and others. Here's a brief bio....CLICK HERE. Good point on the innovators. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: Investing in Traditional Music. Why? From: Uncle_DaveO Date: 27 Sep 00 - 03:13 PM Just to add to the comments on Dwight Diller. He's often almost apologetic that he makes his living doing this music. Really doesn't think it ought to be commercialized at all. Dave Oesterreich |
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Subject: RE: Investing in Traditional Music. Why? From: Mark Clark Date: 27 Sep 00 - 04:41 PM That night long ago at the Opry, I was enjoying the spangled suits right along with the rest of the audience. But it floored me when I realized the whole country music audience felt as I did about Mother Maybelle, her musicianship and the tradition she represented. As I recall, we also saw Dave (Stringbean) Akeman, Grandpa Jones, The Fruit Jar Drinkers, "both Hanks," Miss Kitty, Loretta, The Osborne Brothers, Roy Acuff, Brother Oswald and a long list of wonderful performers. Rick, Please pick "both" Hanks from the following list: Locklin, Snow, Thompson, Williams. <VBG> Friends of mine "in the business" tell me that Merle Haggard can't get a recording contract today. I suppose that's happening to a lot of the people whose music I enjoy. And GUEST,Russ is right, all those innovators, the traditional performers, just keep getting better no matter how long they've been dead. Spaw, I think the kids understand until we get them "properly socialized" then they forget what they used to take for granted. When our daughter was a youngster I used to take a banjo or a fiddle out on the front stoop to play on a summer afternoon. Pretty soon half the kids in the neighborhood would be dancing in the front yard. They weren't familiar with the music and didn't have any formal steps but they had no preconceptions about it and they knew how to have a good time. I know someone who won't listen to country or old-time southern music at all. In fact he doesn't hear it even when it's played. All he can hear are the social, political and cultural views he associates with southern whites and he just shuts it all out. Oh, did I mention he's a director at a social agency in the rural south? Sigh. - Mark |
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Subject: RE: Investing in Traditional Music. Why? From: Art Thieme Date: 27 Sep 00 - 05:15 PM Reading all the fine observations you all have made has me thinking in several directions at once. Reminds me of that "multiple personality" thread. It does beat dining alone...
Someone once said to me, "Art, the ballads and songs aren't good because they're old. They are old because they are good." Just about everything Mark and Rick and ditty have said rings real true to my ears. The same goes for the positive additions you've all made to this thread. I do believe those of us who have learned (yes, learned) to value traditional music over the racing passage of years and decades have been immeasurably enriched by it. Making cash from performing the music should not get in the way of feeling one has done a decent job of presenting that music in a trad way. Yes, it does prompt one to change aspects of the presentation. For me, it only meant adding patter and humor that was most often taken directly from the folk archives' theselves--as with tall tales etc. But my motive was always to push the song to the fore---to set up a situation where 20th century people, who may or may not been "folkies", were willing to accept a song with 30 verses that told a wonderful story---and a decent tune was there also. The song was always done with a love and respect for that song, that tradition -- and for the historical and geographical parameters that gave the singers I had learned it from their particular style, world view and persona. The young person this thread is to help in his delvings into the world of folkdom probably never thought it might need this kind of a commitment from her/him/whatever. Once again, I'm reminded of what Sandy Paton told me when I asked him something like, "How do I get credibility and become a folksinger?" He told me to hit the road and soak it up pretty much. I did that very thing for the next 40 years. I financed my rambling (AND my family) by making my living singing the songs I found---the ones I respected totally for their connection to the tradition and to the people who carried the tradition onward. Some weren't folksongs---some were. It took me a LONG TIME to see the differences clearer. Kid, don't expect quick insight. Learn some older styles of playing your instruments but you will add your own cliches to the old styles---and that is when your own STYLE will emerge. It is precisely those cliches that will make you , maybe, different from others. It will be a natural process precipitated by your doin' of it and the passage of time. That's not unlike the process that made songs traditional in the first place. Don't expect big bucks---They ain't there. (I can vouch for that.) But the road you take will be your own variation on a "thieme"---so to speak. (Sorry for the pun.) Art Thieme |
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Subject: RE: Investing in Traditional Music. Why? From: Peter T. Date: 27 Sep 00 - 09:26 PM Reverting to the original topic, I think it would be safe to say that (after a lot of trying), I have not run across a resource book that really sets out, in the American context, the serious musical elements of, let us say, the Carter Family and other very influential players and their styles -- how they actually played -- through to recent times, in a way that would help a listener to situate the myriad of records now available, historically and in an evolutionary perspective. There are a number of such things available in Jazz. There are liner notes and bits of books here and there -- but one useful primer to all the main folk/country playing styles and their evolution? I think it would be an amazing resource. Each chapter could discuss/diagram the elements of the style (e.g. why is Travis picking innovative?), influences, etc., and the attached CD could play slow/fast versions for learners or interested listeners. There are videos and CDS all over the place of historic figures, but to put them together in a family tree is very hard work. It could be easier. It was only through picking through a myriad of things, books, records, and bugging Encyclopaedia/Guitar Man Rick that I have begun to get a sense of the playing lineages (e.g. Piedmont style sounds like this, and it differs from another style elsewhere in these ways, and these people did it this way). I bet this could all be bottled better. yours, Peter T. |
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Subject: RE: Investing in Traditional Music. Why? From: catspaw49 Date: 27 Sep 00 - 09:47 PM Art...So to speak? Well it may have been a bad pun, but you spoke it well. PT, I think that you have an idea there, but I can't imagine it. I suppose all forms of music intertwine to a great degree, no progression is truly linear, but the country/folk idioms have so many mingled, crossed, broken, and grafted branches that its hard to think how convoluted things would become. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: Investing in Traditional Music. Why? From: John Hardly Date: 27 Sep 00 - 10:37 PM I'm just so glad to have found this site. I think Bartholemew pointed out that we get here in different ways. For me I always knew that the type of pop music to which I was drawn--PPM, Paul Simon, JT, Jim Croce, had to be coming from a common "SOUL" that I just wasn't privy to and didn't know where to go looking. I heard a folk radio program on the radio one night (didn't even know where the signal was from) playing a Kate Wolf song. I had to have that, and the next, and the next--each artist I was drawn to more "roots" than the previous and I feel like I'm getting closer to the soul the music so full of integrity that you can't tell where the need to make the music starts and the performance begins. And never has my own playing been more rewarding. Thanks for the thread--sorry for the rambling John |
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Subject: RE: Investing in Traditional Music. Why? From: Art Thieme Date: 27 Sep 00 - 11:21 PM P.T., I didn't think I was off topic at all. Folks, what I was striving to show was that THERE IS NO WAY TO DIAGRAM IT. It would be a shame if there were. Everyone must get out and experience it in their own way. You invest in traditional music by following both the road less traveled and a road more traveled. The road more traveled (to me) is the road of the tradition---where the old ones walked before we came here-- and they brought their songs and their styles for us to learn from. The road less traveled is the road that is your own. It's the uniqueness that you/we/I bring to the music---those things that are added to the tradition or deleted from the tradition just because it's reflecting the drum you hear in your head---and after all, it is a different drum that determines the way any individual might tap their foot---or pick their strings. It's why Earl Scruggs is different from Snuffy Jenkins---and why John Hartford, as much as he admires and has emulated his friend Earl, is so different from Mr. Scruggs. Art Thieme |
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Subject: RE: Investing in Traditional Music. Why? From: GUEST,marty D Date: 27 Sep 00 - 11:24 PM I have to fess up. I sent Rick the e-mail, and yes he asked if I minded him using my remark about the Carter Family in this thread. Not at all. I'm still totally amazed at the advice, suggestions and encouragement I've gotten in my brief period of mudcatting. One thing I should clear up though, I'm not a youngster as some have suggested. Nearing 50, and I've been playing for a long time, but I've never been happy with the results. I've started to put some of the suggestions in the Doc Watson thread to use and I'm looking forward to having more fun with the guitar. The only thing that's going to be hard is finding that two hours a day practice time, but as I said in the other thread "I'm serious", so I'll try and make time. Thanks mudcatters. Wish I'd discovered this five years ago. marty D (Martin Dawson) |
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Subject: RE: Investing in Traditional Music. Why? From: Alice Date: 27 Sep 00 - 11:25 PM Amen to that, Art. Thank you. |
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Subject: RE: Investing in Traditional Music. Why? From: Peter T. Date: 28 Sep 00 - 05:17 PM I wasn't criticising you, Art, I was only suggesting that the original topic was the question about what to listen to in the earlier period. And I was struck by how haphazard it is currently -- which is, I completely agree, partly a virtue -- at least in my experience, to get a practical sense of the history. And parts of it are diagrammable, people are diagramming it all the time in conversation. I have heard it done by trad people who say X learned from Y, Y came from this part of Appalachia where they tended to play like this. That is a kind of diagram. Jazz is all over the place too, but there are a number of reputable introductions and practical surveys -- this is what the music is doing here, this is how this orchestra or whatever did what they did -- which give people some kind of frame. It is open to abuse, obviously, but so is everything. My not very radical suggestion was to bring the bare facts as a starting point into a useful format. yours, Peter T. |
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Subject: RE: Investing in Traditional Music. Why? From: Rick Fielding Date: 29 Sep 00 - 12:01 PM Don't think this place existed five years ago. Now this is probably off-topic, but so what? I often go overboard when it come to hunting musical minutia down....but I love the process. Art, you've talked about some of your (reasonably) contemporary Chicago influences, and how Sandy was a big part of your musical developement, but I'm curious about any kind of folk music groups or organisations that you're aware of in Chicago during the thirties. Anything come to mind? Rick |
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Subject: RE: Investing in Traditional Music. Why? From: Art Thieme Date: 30 Sep 00 - 01:50 PM Rick, Right now I'm looking at an article dated June 19th, 1937. "American folk music? Why, I always thought folk music was something European peasants danced to in their native countries. I didn't know Americans had folk music of their very own." This reaction, voiced by a Chicagoan who attended the National Folk Festival at Orchestra Hall, was experienced by many other city folks. In speaking of Bascom Lamar Lunsford's group of square dancers from the Great Smokies, one Chicago critic said, "Many of these mountain folk were quite a shock to those of the audience who expected slouch hats and bare feet. The men wore white trousers and dark coats. The girls modish white dresses." From as far West as Texas and New Mexico, from as far South as Louisiana, from the Easten seaboard, and from the Northernmost tips of Michigan and Wisconsin came the musicians and dancers who participated in the Fourth Annual National Folk Festival. ====================================================
Rick, it goes on and on---Kiowa Indians from Oklahoma and Fort Yates, North Dakota---Wiinbagos from N. Wisconsin -- Pottawatomies from Illinois and Indiana---Berea College in Kentucky was represented as was Ashville, N.C. Lumberjacks from Minnesota and Wisconsin and Michigan--Mexican traditions from New Mexico and French Canadians sang as well. Lithuanian music from immigrants now living in Chicago. Scottish music and dancing. Irish music and jigs. And a 750 member black chorus sang spirituals. Carol needs to use the phone. Gotta get off line---or I'd write more from this article verbatim. Art |
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Subject: RE: Investing in Traditional Music. Why? From: Art Thieme Date: 01 Oct 00 - 12:19 AM Well, you get the idea. This was happening in Chicago in 1937. The WLS Barn Dance had been going since the 20s. Bradley Kincaid, a fine singer of roots folk songs, was a big part of it early on. So wa Doc Hopkins and many others---Bob Atcher - the singing cowboy could, and sometimes did, sing traditional cowboy ballads and songs. (Later on he was the mayor of Schaumburg, Illinois for 20 years and presided over that area Northwest of Chicago's tremendous growth--out by the Woodfield Mall.) Things were "folk" in the simple way anything was "folk" in those early days. It wasn't urbanized yet like the sophisticated bar scene of Chicago in the 1960s and 70s was thought by those who were there then to be pretty hip and the only place to "be". As Bruce Phillips has said, It was "good though". Art Thieme |
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Subject: RE: Investing in Traditional Music. Why? From: Rich(bodhránai gan ciall) Date: 01 Oct 00 - 02:04 AM I don't think you can look at traditional music or for that matter music in general as a point but as a line or a field. To understand where it's going one should have at least a cursory understanding of where it's been. What some might look at as a quaint little prelude to the real thing IS the real thing. Theirs is the foundation on which the flash is built. If you don't want to play that way, fine, but there lies the roadmap to where the music is now. There is a whole lot of technique to be found there and a wealth of good material. Woody Guthrie is a good example of a musician who certainly was not a "hot picker" but had a lot more integrity and emotional value than a lot of what's going around today. I heard an old tape in a concert archive of Jean Ritchie and her husband, George (Picken?). It was a very warming experience to say the least. I saw Utah Phillips and Rosalie Sorrels (separately) and they both put a lump in my throat and a tear in my eye. As death by whisky brought up, In Irish Music, one must look at the solo works of Joe Burke, Paddy Glackin et. al. to first get the tune. I'd say take it on step further, and listen to all the great recorded music of the '20s. Coleman, McKenna, Morrison and so on. That's the music in a nutshell and what's more, they were good players. To just listen to what's going on today and claim to know the music is like coming into a movie in the middle without seeing the setup, and then trying to explain the story. What's more, the stuff that sounds antiquated when you first here it will come to sound better and better as you get to understand the music. Or to sum it up, Only those who know their history will be lucky enough to repeat it. Rich |
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Subject: RE: Investing in Traditional Music. Why? From: Marion Date: 05 Jun 01 - 02:16 AM Some reflections... comments welcomed. Apologies in advance for the length. Both this thread and Marty's "Could I play like Doc Watson?" have being nagging at the back of my mind since they came out. The Doc Watson thread disturbed me because I realized that I don't have a guitar hero I hope to be able to play like - just a desire to get better without any solid idea of what I mean by better. And this thread makes me feel guilty, because I never listen to any of these old pioneers, and don't have a clue what they're about. So anyway, one day last week something suddenly clicked and it was time to do something about this. So I went and bought two CDs - "Foundation: the Doc Watson Guitar Instrumental Collection" and "Can the Circle be Unbroken: The Original Carter Family". (And it was touching just how excited the record store guy was that I was buying them - he went on and on about the Carter Family and was pointing me out to the other staff, saying "Somebody's buying real music!") I've never listened to Doc Watson or the Carters before. I was amazed by the Watson CD; how can one guitar do all that? I'm not planning to adopt him as a guitar hero, right away, but I can certainly see why Marty would. But as for the Carter Family CD... I want to like the Carter Family, really, I do. But I don't like this CD, except for one song (Little Black Train). I found the guitar playing boring, and the singing mildly irritating (though I'm starting to get used to it). I was interested that the CD liner said "Echoes of the Carter Family are still heard, for example, in the original music and vocal style of Indigo Girls." I love the Indigo Girls! But my initial reaction to Maybelle Carter is definitely the same as Big Mick's - I'd rather just listen to the Indigo Girls. But at the same time I don't want to accept Mark Clark's diagnosis that "if the Carter Family etc.... don't just reach out and grab you, then I'd say your interest in folk music is more as an alternative pop music and has very little to do with honest expression in a folk idiom." So what I'm trying to figure out is where to go from here... what exactly it means to "invest" in this old music. Make myself keep listening to it in the hopes that I'll start liking it? Put the CD in a drawer for a few years in the hope that I'll appreciate it when I'm older (I'm 28, FWIW) or can "bring more to the table musically"? Try to find those echoes of the Carter Family in the Indigo Girls? Try to copy the one song that does appeal to me? Or buy other people's CDs until I find one that does appeal to me right away? The Carter Family CD does have one big advantage over the Watson CD - when I hear Maybelle playing I think, "I could do that". This may be untrue, but at least it's a sentiment that gets me spending more time with my guitar. But Doc Watson's playing is just plain intimidating. Actually the CD liner notes put it very tactfully: "The more you think you know about playing the guitar, the more you know you couldn't do that if your whole sorry life depended on it." Marion PS Marty, it's been nine months - have you developed an appreciation for the Carter Family yet? |
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Subject: RE: Investing in Traditional Music. Why? From: Mark Clark Date: 05 Jun 01 - 11:56 AM Marion, Perhaps my phrase "reach out and grab you" was something of an overstatement. I first became aware of the Carter Family when I began to realize that many folk revival performers I admired were singing songs attributed to them. Eventually my curosity led me to seek out the original. Having been raised in a midwestern city surrounded by agricultural communities, I had worked hard to expunge anything remotely rural from my conciousness. My first exposure to folk music was as hip urban music and I had a strong cultural suspicion of any one singing in a southern accent. I confess I found the Carter's music strange at first. I regarded the old Carter Family recordings as being primarily of academic interest. As I continued to listen, it didn't take long for me to become more accepting and eventually I learned to love their their performances and those of other southern Applalachian performers including old-timey and bluegrass bands. My main impediment was all the cultural crap I'd been fed growing up. I recommend you shell out for an album listed here for sale. It's the second (yellow cover) Carter Family album in the list and is a wonderful selection of some of their best recordings. Given your interest and dedication (as chronicled here) I'd say it won't be long until you love the Carter Family as I do. Good pickin', - Mark |
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Subject: RE: Investing in Traditional Music. Why? From: Marion Date: 06 Jun 01 - 12:40 PM Thanks Mark. Actually there's a second song on the Carter CD that's starting to grow on me now. But I think I will try somebody else next, before getting more Carter Family. Marion |
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Subject: RE: Investing in Traditional Music. Why? From: Art Thieme Date: 06 Jun 01 - 11:33 PM Mark, Good observations. Art |
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