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Tech: Which Computer?
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Subject: Tech: Which Computer? From: Janie Date: 01 Apr 06 - 04:32 PM I am soon going to have to buy a new computer. My current machine is 4 or 5 years old and getting creaky. It is not upgradable. It is one of the low-end Dell's with a Celeron processor. It is also the only computer I have owned. I know I need more computer than I have now, but I do not need a screaming machine. In addition to basic computing and record-keeping, I would like to have a more sophisticated photo-editing program, I'd like to be able to do some two-track recording with Audacity or something similar, and I'd like to be able to get into Paltalk to join in on some of the music circles. My son would like something better at gaming, but I still would only want pretty basic capacity for that. I have been spending a lot of time on the Dell, HP, Sony and Gateway websites, but I do not understand the technology well enough to figure out what I really need. Money is definitely a factor. I'd like to spend less than $700, but by the time I add the Works suite, an advanced phot-editing software package, and upgraded sound card and a security subscription, that may not be feasible. I can get by with my current Monitor, speakers, keyboard and mouse, but most of that is bundled with the computer on the Dell site. On the other sites I can't find the software options. I would appreciate hearing some recommendations from some of you with some knowledge about this stuff. Thanks. Janie |
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Subject: RE: Tech: Which Computer? From: Bill D Date: 01 Apr 06 - 05:04 PM We have HP...and for close to 700 you can have a LOT of features...including front panel access to firewire, USB and camera cards. Ours came WITH CD/DVD writer/player. We did not get a fancy 3-D graphics card or top of the line sound card, but I seldom miss it... You might need to study how large a drive you want,(we got 160 GIGS!) and weigh that against a bit 'extra' in the sound card dept...but some of the features you want in software can be had for free..(unless you have particular need for advanced features only available in $$$$ware programs...OpenOffice will do 93.873% of what M$ Word will, and there are some wonderful free photoediting programs. Security programs is something I have never paid a dime for, and have NO problems. There are free firewalls, anti-virus and spyware guards...and more. They really work. The old adage "you get what you pay for" is only partially true these days.....(fortunately for poor, cheap folks like me!) Whatever machine you get, take a look at the free software available. (Oh, one virtue of HP is that unlike Dell, it uses pretty standard hardware with almost no upgrade incompatiblities..) Take it slow and compare advice...... |
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Subject: RE: Tech: Which Computer? From: Amos Date: 01 Apr 06 - 05:13 PM Most Macs come fully loaded. Less headaches, easier to use, better software generally. A |
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Subject: RE: Tech: Which Computer? From: Bill D Date: 01 Apr 06 - 05:17 PM yep..'some' less headaches and easier to use in 'some' ways...but FAR less software available, even though the 'standard' bits are usually quite good. It is just a different mindset...☺ |
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Subject: RE: Tech: Which Computer? From: Stilly River Sage Date: 01 Apr 06 - 05:19 PM I also have an HP, but my children have a Dell. It happened that when we bought their machine there were some good Dells on sale. After the burglary last year it just seemed easiest to replace computers with like computers, so I got an HP again and they got another Dell. They both work well. Dell has some bundled software (they usually send WordPerfect, which is a very nice word processing program). I buy my commercial software through an academic contract at the university where I work, so though some of it still expensive (to me) it is a lot less than the full-price versions. Are you using a cathode ray tube (television) monitor? Once you start using a LCD monitor you won't want to go back, and you're not irradiating yourself every day. So you might want to consider it. 17" is as small as I would go, and you can find sales that bring them down to $200 with rebates. I got a nice ViewSonic for a friend last summer at that price. They're not all alike, so go ask a salesperson about the features, then jump when you see it on sale. Pick the brains of the sales people. Find someone who knows what they're talking about and ask questions. I bought my HP and it didn't come with a monitor, all it had was the keyboard and mouse. I had to replace everything after the burglary, and was due for a new printer, but sometimes with Dell you can get a printer or monitor free* (the difference is, you pay shipping if they give you something free, but the shipping is usually cheaper if they give you a monitor, it's probably a wash if they give you a printer). Computers don't come with floppy drives standard much any more, and if you have lots of floppies you might want to install one. It's easy and you can do it yourself. Don't let them hold you hostage for a $15 drive and a $5 cable. You'll also probably have to buy speakers, and you can get a decent set for about $20 these days. Memory is cheap. You can get a relatively small hard drive in a computer and you can add another hard drive or you can add an external hard drive. They go on sale all of the time. Watch the ads for a while. You can also upgrade the RAM in the computer pretty inexpensively and you can do it yourself. So if you find one that is almost what you want, look around and see what you can tweak yourself to make it better. I use two monitors, since my old heavy CRT is one thing the burglars didn't take (now I wonder why?). I got a card and have both plugged in. It's pure luxury, not necessity, but sometimes it is nice to spread things out, or to watch a movie on one screen and work on the other. :) Get lots of plugs for USB2 and Firewire, and if they're in front that's great. Sometimes they come on the monitor or keyboard, though those can't always drive big pieces of equipment. I hope this helps. SRS |
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Subject: RE: Tech: Which Computer? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 01 Apr 06 - 05:49 PM Looking around it seems that it's all LCD monitors these days. I'd agree with Stilly River Sage - get an LCD monitor if you can. My computer is getting a bit long in the tooth now, but when the monitor died on me a couple of years ago, I replaced it with a 15 inch LCD, and it purrs along just fine, especially since I put in Windows XP (which the shop said it probably wouldn't work properly with my old AMD 500MHz processor, but a friend knew better, and he was right. But then he wasn't trying to sell me a new machine). |
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Subject: RE: Tech: Which Computer? From: Janie Date: 01 Apr 06 - 06:24 PM Understanding and using new software programs (or any new technology) does not come easily to me. It took me a long time to learn to use some of the Excel features, and I still have to take the 'long way round' when I need to do a task that I don't often have to complete. I have learned to do what I need to do with the MS Works Suite, and am inclined to stay with it, even if I have to pay for it. But I didn't know there was free antivirus software available, or that good photo editing programs were available as freeware. What is a middle-of-the-roadish processor speed for Pentium and also for AMD. Is a dual core processor worth paying for if I'm not interested in gaming or significant multimedia applications? Janie |
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Subject: RE: Tech: Which Computer? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 01 Apr 06 - 06:48 PM Most new computors have far higher processor speed than is needed for what they are lkely to be asked to do, expecially if you aren't into gaming. No harm in having the extra, but the chances are any newish computer is going to have anything you are likely to want. If you have a squint at the boxes of any software you think you might like to use, such as that photo or audio-editing stuff you mentioned, it should indicate what sort of processor speed and other stuff you are going to need for them. You'll probably find you wouldn't be able to buy a computer that didn't measure up to those requirements, because they've phased them out. |
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Subject: RE: Tech: Which Computer? From: Stilly River Sage Date: 01 Apr 06 - 10:13 PM When I buy a new computer I aim about a tier below what is the hottest newest computer speed-wise. They're a lot more affordable. I bought this HP a year ago, with about 200 gig hard drive, and a 3 gig processor. It's still in the realm of reasonable now, but I don't know about the dual core--I'd have to research that. Did I mention getting a copy of Ghost before? It is a good idea, and having an external hard drive that is only hooked up for a full backup every so often. This is a huge help if you have to restore the hard drive (or put the data on a new hard drive if the old one died). SRS |
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Subject: RE: Tech: Which Computer? From: artbrooks Date: 01 Apr 06 - 10:34 PM I'm on my third Dell (in 12 years or so), and have never had any trouble upgrading them. I've doubled the memory in the one I have now and replaced the hard drive. In fact, the only negative thing I'd say about Dell is that their telephone service is now in India, and I have trouble understanding Indian English. When you go to their website and find the basic machine you're interested in, click "customize it". That will let you add and subtract things like memory, CD/DVD drives and monitors. You can save a (very) little if you select "no monitor" if you think the one you have is ok. They also have a link to their "scratch-and-dent" store, where you can get stuff that has been returned and refurbished. I got a 17" flat-screen monitor there which was well worth the price I paid. Different people have had different experiences with HP. My daughter had one and, the second time she tried to get a major component replaced under warranty, was told that replacement was a one-shot deal. |
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Subject: RE: Tech: Which Computer? From: JohnInKansas Date: 01 Apr 06 - 10:39 PM For absolute cheap, you might look at The $159 Computer. Since it's only available in limited areas, you may not be able to find one in your market, and you might not want one if you could, but the article tells you what you need to bring this bare-bones PC up to "useful" speed, which may give you some ideas of what to look for from more conventional suppliers. You'll need to read the whole thing, and maybe make notes. (If you let the first page load completely the last thing to appear will be a "print" down at the bottom. Click it, and you'll get the whole article without going thru a bunch of "next" buttons - and can print it if you like.) John |
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Subject: RE: Tech: Which Computer? From: bobad Date: 01 Apr 06 - 10:39 PM You can save yourself some money by downloading a free photo editing program. One that I know of is Gimp Guru http://gimpguru.org/. It is highly recommended and quite powerful and it uses the same style of interface as Photoshop. |
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Subject: RE: Tech: Which Computer? From: Bill D Date: 02 Apr 06 - 12:16 AM The Gimp is quite powerful, but it is HUGE, and has, I am told, a pretty steep learning curve. I will post some alternatives tomorrow, along with the various possibilities in security and music playing programs that I am familar with. It's good to know the alternatives, even if you don't use them all. (and if you end up with a much larger HD, as is likely, since it's hard to find a small one anymore, it's perfectly possible to install several examples of each type and experiment until you find what suits you..) I use...not just have, but actually use, several file-management programs, several music players, several graphics editors, several text editors.....and a bunch of neat special purpose gadgets that it's just fun to have..☺ more later..... |
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Subject: RE: Tech: Which Computer? From: Stilly River Sage Date: 02 Apr 06 - 01:26 AM I walk past the components at a couple of stores I visit (like Fry's, with it's online version at Outpost.com), and always feel the tug of "build it yourself." I'd love to do that one of these days, get one of those fancy clear and neon brushed metal boxes and add to it. . . It is the software that kills you in the computer acquisition these days. It used to be the cheap part of the computer. I'm using free security software and just recently switched to the antivirus and firewall provided by Earthlink. I don't like seeing as many ads as appear, and some software crashes rather than closing when I try to close it. I'm tweaking things. Most of the rest of the software was purchased. SRS |
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Subject: RE: Tech: Which Computer? From: Dave the Gnome Date: 02 Apr 06 - 08:21 AM Make your own! Usualy 75% of the price of a ready made plus you can ensure you use only good quality components. OK - It has 1Gb or memory but is it Corsair or Geil? What cooling does it have. CPU only? Case? Intake and exhaust? Choose the motherboard for what type of CPU and memory you want. I want an AMD Athlon so that's what I am going for. DDR or DDR2 memory? PCI-E x16 slot(s) for best graphics. Want 8 channel sound? Get it! It realy is far easier than most people think. A good supplier will make sure you only buy compatible components if you tell them all the bits are for the same machine. Then of course you have the satisfaction of building it yourself and you also know how to replace all teh components should anything go wrong - Not that it will of course. Oh - and finaly - choose a flashy case. Preferrably with lots of glowing neon. Very important is that:-) Cheers DtG |
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Subject: RE: Tech: Which Computer? From: wysiwyg Date: 02 Apr 06 - 09:43 AM IvanB spec'ed my computer for me. I give thanks for him every day. Can't go wrong with a PM that direction. Power, speed-- amd SIMPLICITY. ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: Tech: Which Computer? From: JohnInKansas Date: 02 Apr 06 - 11:45 AM If you intend to use a Windows Operating System, I would strongly urge you to consider only WinXP Professional. My son ignored this advice and got a machine about a year ago with WinXP - Home Edition, and I've had signficant experience fighting with the "minor differences." WinXP Pro is the "standard." The difference typically is about $200(?) if bought with a new machine. I have numerous friends who've bought cheaper machines with "Works," and all of them have found problems with simple things they want to do and can't. Works does have a real Word now, but the "spreadsheet" is extremely limited and they don't even call it Excel. (I'm not sure it's fair to call it a spreadsheet, by modern standards.) I'd recommend getting a "real" Microsoft Office in one version or another. The difference between Office Basic and Works at one machine maker is about $99 (US) and well worth it - in my opinion. Note that there are several versions (7?) of Office, so look carefully at what you're getting, especially if you need/want anything other than Word and Excel. If you are going to use Windows and Office, it will usually be cheaper to buy it with the machine and get it all preinstalled, even if it's an extra cost option with the machine you choose. You can get freeware/shareware programs to do most things that the Office programs will do, and that's a viable choice, but you'll have to do your own picking and choosing. My own observation is that the ones who try to save a bit on software are the same ones most often prone to badmouth Windows and cry for "Windows help" - quite possibly because their "marginally compatible freeware" doesn't play well with others(?). Some of the alternative programs are excellent, but it's your responsibility to determine whether they're really compatible, and to solve any problems that come up. The ones who can say they've had no problems with mix-n-match software mostly are fairly advanced users, for whom it is a good deal. Those selling "cheap" machines often cut corners on RAM and you do need to be wary of a machine with limited RAM and limited RAM expansion capabilities. Some cheaper machines are being offered with 256 MB RAM or less, and while 256 MB meets the "minimum requirement" for WinXP it won't give you particularly good performance. Consider 512 MB a minimum standard amount of RAM. Especially if you're going to do significant music and photo editing, extra RAM is needed. Good photo editing programs can use a lot of RAM, and benefit a lot from having more available than needed to just make Windows limp along. You need enough for the OS and for the programs you add. Some machines with low RAM have only 2 slots for RAM chips and usually come with both slots filled. Cheap BIOS chips in some machines are limited in the amount of RAM memory they can access. It's much more expensive to replace existing chips and buy "bigger chips" than it is to add another chip or two of the same kind. Four 256 MB chips will usually be cheaper than two 512 MB chips, a machine with 4 chip slots is somewhat to be preferred, and I wouldn't suggest buying a machine now that won't allow you, at least theoretically, to install at least 2 GB of RAM. You're unlikely to need/want more than 1 GB, and may actually get by with 256 MB, before you've worn out this new machine, but a low limit on maximum installable RAM is a "symptom" of a cheap BIOS and Chip Set that can cause problems in other areas. It is NOT ALWAYS TRUE that you can "always add more later," since the BIOS and CHIPSET may set a limit that can't be (easily) exceeded in some machines. Bargain priced computers also often cut corners on Hard Drive sizes. Some "business lines" are available with 40 GB hard drives. This is barely sufficient for installing the OS, and is appropriate only where the machine is a client on a network where all the "productivity" programs and all the work output are stored on a server. It is NOT suitable for a home user unless it's for "granny in the care home," - and even granny might take an upgrade out of your share in the will. Especially if you are intending to work with music files and/or photo editing of any kind, I would suggest something around 120 GB as an minimum for a primary hard drive. I personally would not opt for a very large HD (>180 GB?) as the only drive, due to reliability and backup considerations. I find it much more useful to have a pair of 160 GB externals for overflow, and those can easily be added later. You probably could get by with an 80 GB HD in a new machine if you anticipate adding an external HD fairly soon and make allowance for the addition. Several makers offering the "Client" machines with small HD and limited Optical Drive (CD and DVD) options are also omitting any modem, so if you use dial-up at all, you will want to check that one is included. ($29?) A good machine with reasonable expansion capabilities, pre-loaded with WinXP Pro and Office Basic, with 256 MB RAM installed and capable of 2 GB expansion, with a CD-R/W, and with 120 GB HD is more reasonably at about $1,200 (US) than at your $700 target. You likely can find bargains that meet your needs at something closer to your goal, but it will require you to do some careful "spec reading" to avoid later woes. Consider the choices you made when you bought your present 5-year old machine, that now make it "not upgradeable"(?). Make choices now that will get you a machine that will offer some hope of lasting 7 to 10 years next time(?). By then, the "new Windows" (originally scheduled for 2002 release?) may be out and we'll all need *new machines. * Almost any reasonably equipped machine you buy now may be able to run the "new Windows" should you eventually want to, but many really cheap ones probably won't. Quite a few 5-year old machines, and some much newer ones, are marginal for it according to beta reports. John |
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Subject: RE: Tech: Which Computer? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 02 Apr 06 - 12:23 PM I'm not sure about that advice about Windows XP Pro. I've never yet found anything the Home version can't do that the Pro version could do that I actually want to do. And my impression is that there are some things it likes to do that I wouldn't want. I think there's a tendency sometimes among people who give advice to go for the top of the range state of the art stuff, when it ain't necessarily what ordinary mortals want. That happens not just in computers, but also in all kinds of other fields where people get enthusiastic - cars, musical instruments. |
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Subject: RE: Tech: Which Computer? From: JohnInKansas Date: 02 Apr 06 - 12:45 PM WinXP Home is certainly a usable OS for those with fairly limited needs. If you absolutely must minimize cost, it's an option. There are a couple of fairly common network protocols for which Home is not equipped that Pro handles automatically. They're common enough to cause a few people a problem, but most people won't run into them. WinXP Pro has much more useful self-repair and much better administrator tools for adjusting settings and making corrections in case of a few fairly common problems that people run into. It's not that you can't make the repairs with Home, but if you've looked for them Pro has a lot more, and more useful, maintenance features. If you're expert enough to do all your own maintenance, you'll appreciate the difference if you ever run into a significant problem. If you usually call in outside help, they'll likely not tell you how much easier it would be if you had Pro. The machine-specific registration bit is also a little more easily handled with Pro than with Home. If you make fairly trivial changes like adding hard drives or replacing burners you may need to "register" that Home is still on the same machine, where with Pro the registration is much more tolerant of minor changes. Pro also allows some additional options for running non-compliant programs that are not available, and/or not as "controllable" with Home. I consider WinXP Pro a good value. I won't argue with those who get by all right with WinXP Home. It's a recommendation, not a command. John |
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Subject: RE: Tech: Which Computer? From: Uncle_DaveO Date: 02 Apr 06 - 12:53 PM Check your phone book to see if you have locally a branch of an organization called Fry's Electronics. It's a chain electronics superstore. I recently urgently HAD to buy a new computer because my old one was imminently going to give out. I talked to "my" computer repairman, and he told me to check the Sunday paper for Fry's Electronics' two or four page insert, because they not only have EXCELLENT prices on all kinds of electronic stuff, but every week run sensational specials. I was able to get a really good quality desktop computer called (are you ready for this?) "Quality Computer" for less than $200! Without monitor, because my existing monitor was fine. I've had it for maybe six months now, and couldn't be happier. It has more HD space than my two year old Compaq, also more memory, and pretty durn fast, but I disremember the details. It came with a non Microsoft operating system, and I wasn't sure that my specialized computer program whereby I earn my bread would run on it, so I Googled for a cheap source of and EOM version of MS 200NT. The whole shootin' match cost less than $300, I know, but I forget the actual final figure. Now you may want a laptop, which this is not, but Fry's, if you have one locally, would probably have a super deal on those too. Disclaimer: I have no interest in Fry's Electronics other than as a satsified customer. Dave Oesterreich |
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Subject: RE: Tech: Which Computer? From: Bill D Date: 02 Apr 06 - 12:54 PM free, excellent software: Open Office free PhotoFiltre , a powerful graphics editing program. Faststone Image Viewer, and several other programs. This is an amazing newish program that is becoming a freeware standard. It will do many photo editing tricks, plus displaying almost every image format. VLC media player. VLC will play almost every media file...video, audio, and will even do jpegs as a slideshow....take a look here at its features It will NOT play most Real Audio files...for that you need: Jet Audio, which will play almost everything VLC will, and Real Media files also. Its only real limitation is converting/encoding MP3s. Or, you can get Media Player Classic, which is a vast improvement on "Windows Media Player" that is supplied with Windows. It does 'almost' as many things as VLC & Jet Audio. but...whether you get any of the above, you should have Irfanview, a renowned free media-graphics program that will show/play almost any image or video except RealMedia. Then for using a PC computer everyday, it is a good idea to have a file management program that is more useful, powerful and sensible than "Windows Explorer". Take a look at: [xplorer²]...has a free version. or perhaps Free Commander, which is a bit simpler, but quite powerful. There is even FileCommander, which will do about the same as the other two, but can have 4 'panes' instead of two.... Then, for **SECURITY** there are free antvirus progs like AVG-free (excellent..updates itself on autopilot if you wish)...I have used it for 6-7 years now. and for a firewall, I recommend Kerio..NOT version 4.X, but version 2.1.5, as it does the job without bloated extras and complex interface. Many, many experts have tried version 4, and gone back to version 2.1.5. There is another free firewall called SyGate, which seems to be pretty good also...I just have had no reason to try it. for spyware management **GET** SpyBot Search & Destroy ..'nuff said! There are so many other little special purpose programs...font viewers, spell checkers, thesauri(??), email, newsreaders, news aggregators, download managers, Personal Info Managers (for addresses, schedules, calendar...etc..), alternative browsers (Opera, Firefox, K-Meleon), Capslock controllers, screen capture utilities.......on & on & on... I, of course, have WAY too many and don't use some very often, but it's a hobby, and the ones I DO need keep me safe while I play with the others..*grin* more info on request... |
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Subject: RE: Tech: Which Computer? From: Bill D Date: 02 Apr 06 - 12:59 PM (so far...in over 2 years, I have found nothing that XP home won't do.....I have not tried to set up a network yet, and I doubt that Janie is gonna need to either....If I had an extra $200, sure..Pro would be nice...but..) |
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Subject: RE: Tech: Which Computer? From: Stilly River Sage Date: 02 Apr 06 - 01:25 PM The link I put in above to Outpost.com is the online source for Fry's Electronics. They have a lot of reconditioned as well as new, so read carefully. I have helped a lot of people with computer problems, and those who have more computer problems are the ones using XP Pro. Their problems may come from knowing less about their computers, hence the choice, but I also think it is inherent in the XP Home itself. It just isn't as robust when you need it to be. I Googled for a cheap source of and EOM version of MS 200NT. This needs a little translation. I think that is "OEM" (Original Equipment Manufacturer) and "MS 200NT" is Windows 2000 or Windows 2000Pro (they're both NT operating systems by Windows). Win2000 was very robust, the Pro version was more robust, but they are out of date now for some of the security issues and administrative issues that XP addresses. But you can search various sites that sell the OEM software--it is my guess that these disks, with no boxes or instructions, that I am aware, are left over from the process of building computers for people. The unused software is sold for a pitance compared to the commercial boxes in retail stores, and it is usually a version or two behind. It needs upgrades, at the very least. I know people who have had good luck with it, but check the vendor for reliability. You don't want to get a pirated copy, etc. By the way, eBay has lots of folks selling reconditioned computers with the older operating systems. You might want to look there for something less out of date than your current machine. Buyer beware--choose someone with a long track record and HIGH feedback score. SRS |
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Subject: RE: Tech: Which Computer? From: Janie Date: 02 Apr 06 - 04:30 PM I keep looking at the Dell E310-P4. They often offer specials on it with up to $350 off. If I were to buy one today, the deal they are offering has a 1GB HD, 512 RAM (or did I reverse those?), Pentium five-hundred-something processor, and includes a 17" flat panel analog monitor and a printer which I haven't checked out. If I add a 3.5 floppy drive and the MS Works Suite, it would come in at $699. Can't remember if this one of their free shipping specials or not. The included operating system is XP Media Center. (John-I hear what you are saying about the Works Suite--I use it at home and Office at the clinic--but it does all that I need it to do.) Whatcha think? Would I be wiser to go a little bigger and faster. What is the deal with the Media Addition? I don't even know how to get the case off the computer to replace my modem which is dying on me, and my interest in computers is simply as a tool. I do not enjoy tinkering around with mechanical or electrical stuff, but will do it when necessary. That being the case, SRS and like-minded others, would you stick with your recommendation to go cheap and do my own upgrading? All of these comments are very helpful, if somewhat mind-boggling to a technophobe like me. And they are a lot less mind-boggling than the websites. I think one reason I keep going back to Dell is the simplicity of the site. Janie |
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Subject: RE: Tech: Which Computer? From: JohnInKansas Date: 02 Apr 06 - 05:08 PM Janie - The only really questionable spec is the "1 GB hard drive." That's just about enough for a "scratchpad" on a "modern computer." The 512 MB RAM is pretty good for a bargain computer, and should be enough if your needs are fairly modest. That's a "free upgrade" now but I don't find what the standard RAM is for this computer. My quick-look at Dell indicates a standard 80 GB Hard Drive, which is enough to get you started. It is an SATA drive, which is good (it's a newer kind than most of us have). Many drives of this relatively new kind are being supplied with a piggyback "EPROM Drive" that acts as a drive buffer, and a 1 GB "flash drive" of this sort could be a possible add-on incorporated by the drive manufacturer, although half that is more common. I didn't find a detailed "spec" on the standard drive. (I've seen other PC builders confuse the "flash size" with the "disk size" in their specs.) I don't see any real problems, given that you seem to have a pretty good idea of what you want from it. (It does come std with a built in modem, if you're using dial-up; although I had to search some to find that.) John |
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Subject: RE: Tech: Which Computer? From: Bert Date: 02 Apr 06 - 06:12 PM A few months ago Rachael bought an old HP computer at a thrift store for $140. It was a really slow old clunker but she was going to set it up for some kids to use. I loaded Linux (Fedora core) on it and now it runs faster than her new Compaq Presario with Windows XP. So the poor kids didn't get it. Linux can be downloaded for free from the internet. Might be a cheaper option than buying a new computer. |
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Subject: RE: Tech: Which Computer? From: Janie Date: 02 Apr 06 - 06:36 PM I had it wrong, John. The hard drive is 160 GB. The Memory is 1GB. The processor is a Pentium 4 521. And What about the XP Media Center operating system, which is standard vs. either XP Home or XP Professional? There is a live streaming video cam of an Eagle nest that people are reporting on below the line. I get messages that my processor is too slow--and video is always stop/start/buffer/start/stop/buffer on my current computer. Could E310 handle video pretty well? Janie |
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Subject: RE: Tech: Which Computer? From: Stilly River Sage Date: 02 Apr 06 - 06:51 PM The Dimension E310 computer you're looking at sounds fine. I haven't heard much about XP Media Center, I've used XP Professional. Even Dell says in their pages "Dell recommends Windows XP Professional." I'd look for a few reviews before settling for something else. You could upgrade to Professional for about $75 last time I bought one there (last year at this time). Opening the computer is a simple matter of making sure it isn't a dry day with static electricity, unplugging it in a stable place with good light, then in the case of this one, it says "Easy access to internal components by lifting the handle" so it's made to be tinkered with. You lift off the side. Read the specs for it here. Remember what I said about not heading for the top most expensive tier processor speed-wise? You could get the "Intel® Pentium® 4 Processor 531 (3GHz, 800MHz FSB, 1MB L2 Cache) with HT Technology" as their middle choice and that's plenty fast. The one you're looking at comes standard with a DVD-ROM. These days you really need two DVDs, one a burner for DVDs and CDs, or a DVD burner and a CD-ROM (second choice). You'll have to add the floppy drive--they can do it or you can do it for under $50. See what they charge. You can buy a big second hard disk drive for between $50 and $100 these days, so if they can't offer more storage space really cheap, put your own in. If they offer "free" stuff that you can't use, then it isn't really a bargain, especially if you have to pay shipping. So check out the offers. They change all of the time, so if the package you want isn't on sale this week and you can wait a little, it may well turn up. I think WordPerfect is a much better software than Works. I'd get that one and go from there checking out some of BillD's software offerings. Good luck! SRS |
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Subject: RE: Tech: Which Computer? From: Bill D Date: 02 Apr 06 - 06:58 PM Janie...those basic specs would probably keep you ok for quite awhile considering what you are likely to use it for.. I still don't feel ok about Dell generally, but obviously they keep a lot of folks happy. 160 GB is quite decent,,, Those specs indicate it could handle streaming media ok. You 'might' get just as good a deal on some other brand, and specials come & go rapidly...there will be another tomorrow. If you must order online, it makes little difference......if you had any stores near, I would suggest you look for a similar deal where you can beat on the counter if you have a problem, but that's not an option for everyone. I think you can get most everything you need for about that $700...then look at the free programs to fill out the rest. |
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Subject: RE: Tech: Which Computer? From: kendall Date: 02 Apr 06 - 08:31 PM Consider e machines |
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Subject: RE: Tech: Which Computer? From: JohnInKansas Date: 02 Apr 06 - 09:50 PM Janie - Microsoft sells WinXP in several "packages," one of which is the Multimedia version. There is a sort of hierarchy that starts at the bottom with a "Starter" edition - sold only in undeveloped countries, "Home" common in the US, up to "Professional." The "special packages," like Multimedia piggyback onto either Home or Pro, or some intermediate mix, and add features specialized for "Home Multimedia." I have seen some magazine "breakdowns" of how the various versions relate to the basic Home and Pro, but can't seem to find any of them at the moment. The Microsoft site for the Media Center edition may give you some help; but it's pretty much meaningless ad-speak to me. The "Properties" link on the left sidebar is as close as I found to actually sort of approximately imply something about what maybe the system may do. From previous info - its at least as good at the core as "Home," but has some added bells and whistles and go-fast stripes. It may include some of the Pro features not included in basic Home, but I can't cite any meaningful differences unless/until I can find one of those old articles. I am pretty sure it's a "version" that can only be bought as an OEM installation - preinstalled on a machine. You can't walk into a local store and get it off the shelf, unless the marketing has changed recently. John |
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Subject: RE: Tech: Which Computer? From: bobad Date: 02 Apr 06 - 10:17 PM A lot of FREE resources available here |
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Subject: RE: Tech: Which Computer? From: artbrooks Date: 02 Apr 06 - 11:47 PM Seems like Media Center is an PC/TV integration set-up...record TV shows on the hard drive and so forth. |
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Subject: RE: Tech: Which Computer? From: Stilly River Sage Date: 03 Apr 06 - 12:16 AM You can get a card to do the same thing if you decide you want to do that tv and radio recording thing later. My daughter has one in her Dell that her father gave her two christmases ago. I think she might have used it a half-dozen times since then. In other words, it's a low priority for us so if this is what makes the Media Center software a big deal, I'd pass on it. In fact, I DID pass on it--when I was looking at HPs last year. I bought the a820n instead. I wish I'd found one with more expansion room (I have to do my expanding from the outside with things attached via cable). They don't seem to make too many tall cases any more, at least they didn't have any there to look at at the time. Dell puts in a bit extra space. For free and cheap software, you'll find tons of programs at Tucows.com. SRS |
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Subject: RE: Tech: Which Computer? From: GUEST,DB Date: 03 Apr 06 - 05:48 AM I live in the UK and I bought my present machine, a Compaq Presario, from a local computer store (PC World) about 3 years ago. I bought it in a sale just after Xmas. About a year ago it developed a fault on the DVD dual drive but that was fairly easy and cheap to replace - that is the only problem I've had. I'm sure that techies are either sneering or crying with laughter at this but consider that my machine came with really excellent documentation and was easy to set up and use 'out-of-the-box'. It does everything I want it to do and runs all of the software that I need (including photo-editing software). It didn't come with all of the potential hassles I associate with mail-order and if it had developed a fault, during the warranty period, all that I would have had to have done was stick in the boot of the car and take it back to the shop. The spec on this machine is: 2.17GHz Athlon AMD processor, 512 MB DDR RAM and a 120GB hard drive. I probably paid roughly what you are prepared to pay (although without monitor, keyboard and mouse). Obviously, things have moved on a lot since then so you could probably get a lot of computer for your budget. I think that Compaq have been taken over by HP. For the record I've got an HP printer and an HP scanner - I like them a lot! |
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Subject: RE: Tech: Which Computer? From: Stilly River Sage Date: 03 Apr 06 - 10:47 AM I'm sure that techies are either sneering or crying with laughter at this but consider that my machine came with really excellent documentation and was easy to set up and use 'out-of-the-box'. You haven't been reading very closely, guest DB. We've also been discussing "out of the box" computers, and they're just fine. That's what my HP is. Compaq is sneered at by techies not because they are picked up in stores, but because for many years Compaq had proprietary BIOS files that only Compaq technicians could adjust. It meant if it needed work or you wanted to add something you had to cough up the bucks to take it to the store or the tech, you COULDN'T do it yourself. I don't know if HP has since phased out those BIOS, I hope they have. I didn't consider Compaq because I had enough choices without having to go do the research on the BIOS thing. They lost some market share with that debacle. Janie, just this morning there was an email from Outpost.com (the Fry's folks) with a Seagate 300 gig internal hard drive for $89 (limit one per customer). That's the straight price, without a rebate. Like I said, this stuff is getting less expensive all of the time. And a note for those who pooh pooh mail order: Two years ago we bought the Dell package for the kids, the computer and the free upgrade 17" monitor. The monitor had one problem, there was one pixel that displayed red when the field was black. It was quite noticeable if you had certain backgrounds or had your browser window on it, though it was to the side on the right. We called Dell and asked if there was a way to reset the monitor to clear up this pixel. There wasn't. They replaced the monitor with a new monitor, and when the new one arrived in about six different places it said "Don't return the other monitor." So I took that "defective" one into my office and used it. From a free monitor, I could stand one bonkers pixel. After the burglary, the insurance company paid for two stolen LCD monitors. It didn't matter what the price on them was, we had two stolen, so two were replaced. SRS |
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Subject: RE: Tech: Which Computer? From: Janie Date: 03 Apr 06 - 03:08 PM I looked at the Outpost site. Definitely worth exploring--Thanks. What about refurbished computers? Specifically refurbdepot.com? It looks like most of them only have a 90 day warranty. How common are problems or defects with desktops after 90 days but before the 1st year of a standard warranty? Never had to send anything back with my current computer, but got burned on a Kodak digital camera. Sent it back 3 times under warranty for the same repair. 3rd time, which was just before the warranty expired, I told them I wanted a new camera or an extended warranty. No joy. 4th time the same thing broke was 2 months after warranty expired. Needless to say, I won't buy a Kodak again. Janie |
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Subject: RE: Tech: Which Computer? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 03 Apr 06 - 04:01 PM PC World, hmm. When my cathode ray monitor packed up I bought a LCD monitor from the big PC World store we have in Harlow. At the same time I bought a new video card I was told would be necessary to make it work. A few months ago the PC started playing up - this time, since it was out of warranty, I took it to a small shopfront workshop run by somene who used to work at PC world, and sold me the PC I bought there a few years back. After seeing how it was going wrong and having a look around inside he just removed that video card - and the PC and the monitor started working perfectly once more and have continued to do so. When I need to buy a new PC I think I'll go back to this bloke. Even if I have to pay a little bit more than I would at PC World, I think it'll be worth it to have someone who knows his stuff, and doesn't need to rely on jargon to mask his ignorance. |
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Subject: RE: Tech: Which Computer? From: Stilly River Sage Date: 03 Apr 06 - 06:56 PM I gave you information about buying used or refurbished, but you certainly want to shop carefully. As prices come down, it doesn't take much to make up the difference between the price of an older, slower refurbished and a new fast and warranted new computer. Dell has an auction site where they sell their reconditoned computers (I'm guessing from leases or if people trade them in somehow). I've noticed that some of them come out costing almost as much as a new one. SRS |
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Subject: RE: Tech: Which Computer? From: Bert Date: 03 Apr 06 - 07:53 PM If a refurbished computer is a new model then it could be a better buy that an off the shelf one. Refurbished machines often undergo a more rigorous testing procedure that new machines. |
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Subject: RE: Tech: Which Computer? From: GUEST,.gargoyle Date: 03 Apr 06 - 10:50 PM Go with Bert above's suggest.
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Subject: RE: Tech: Which Computer? From: Stilly River Sage Date: 03 Apr 06 - 11:27 PM Gargoyle is right, but then, computers are always dropping in price. I hate to think how much I spent on computers over the years, only the have the next one cost a fraction and be so much more powerful. And Bert has a point--if you visit Dell and look at their auction you'll see they have refurbished the machines and what is on them is whatever the last owner put on them. So you might find some pretty nifty stuff (make yourself a check list ahead of time, BTW, so you can just go down the list when you start exploring these sites--see if you can find as many of the desired parts as possible before you jump on one). I don't know much about the dual core stuff people have been talking about, but I have run a dual platform before. It was a bit of work to set up, and it has it's advantages, and disadvantages. At least Google is picking up on this conversation--there's an ad for Dell at the bottom! SRS |
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Subject: RE: Tech: Which Computer? From: GUEST,Bentley Date: 04 Apr 06 - 11:04 AM Have a look on e-bay. Some nice Dell Optiplex's are available for peanuts. Go for 512 Ram (memory) and a minimum 250GB hard drive.Zone alarm for the firewall,Avast for anti virus,Open Office for documents and the Gimp for graphics. All of which are free and stable.Hard drive and memory upgrades are readily available and the machine is broadband ready. Suggest an Optiplex 280. |
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Subject: RE: Tech: Which Computer? From: EBarnacle Date: 04 Apr 06 - 01:24 PM As long as we are talking about computers, consider getting a good used laser printer to go with your inkjet. You will be surprised at how much faster your printing is, as well as how much cheaper per copy. The other thing you will notice is how rarely you need to use the inkjet printer. |
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Subject: RE: Tech: Which Computer? From: Bill D Date: 04 Apr 06 - 01:32 PM I just ran onto another free advanced Image/Graphics editor PaintStar |
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Subject: RE: Tech: Which Computer? From: JohnInKansas Date: 04 Apr 06 - 01:57 PM From: artbrooks 02 Apr 06 - 11:47 PM Seems like Media Center is an PC/TV integration set-up...record TV shows on the hard drive and so forth That's exactly what makes it "Multimedia." The only question is what WinXP version the multimedia stuff is piggy-backed on top of. If you buy a "multimedia" computer, you most likely get some hardware that's "useful" for multimedia purposes. The "Multimedia WinXP" presumedly adds at least basic software for exploiting the "multimedia uses" of the hardware included with the machine. The hardware may be the same as for any other machine, and only "software to exploit" is added, or some of the hardware may have an extra chrome stripe to make it more useful. The point is that if you buy a multimedia machine, you probably should take it with a multimedia OS. This assumes you can rely on the seller to know what works together. The machine, as described, should be fully functional for normal "office" uses. Recording TV programs from broadcasts and/or from DVDs may be a vanishing act for some people. Some of the media producers have begun using a DRM system that requires a "hardware de-cryption" device in your PC. The last report seen, a few weeks ago, was that only one "media card" (formerly sound card) producer is claiming to be able to provide cards with the required hardware component. The maker of the hardware component denies any agreement to sell to the card maker, and insists that the de-coding hardware will be available only to OEM machine builders for use only in "OEM Multimedia" computers. (So far as known, this device is not in any multimedia computer you can buy now.) If this DRM project proceeds as currently indicated, you will NOT, in the forseeable future, be able to "buy a card" that gives you DVD copying or "broadcast capture" of TV programs. (It appears that you still may be able to capture at "analog resolution," but will not be able to save at "digital TV" quality without the hardware.) John |
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Subject: RE: Tech: Which Computer? From: Janie Date: 04 Apr 06 - 02:21 PM We have an old TV that we use strictly to watch movies, and not a huge number of those--maybe 3 or 4 a month. It is not hooked up to cable or even rabbit ears. I haven't been real sure what 'multimedia' entailed. I want to be able to do some advanced photo-editing, watch and listen to streaming news videos and radio without all the stops for buffering, to do a little bit of amateur home recording of my own voice on a couple of tracks with fairly decent fidelity. My kid would like to go on Runescape and not have it constantly pause to reload, and it is ok with me if he can play some fairly basic games. Then I need a simple productivity suite and the ability to surf the internet. There so many choices of computers, specs. and sites that the old head is spinning. And it is easy, when I'm looking at a site, to believe I want or need more computer than I really think I do need. I just know I need more computer than I have now, and from what most of you are saying would be wise to get somewhat more computer than I actually need right now--more than my minimum requirements. As confusing as it all is, the comments all of you are sharing really are educationing me and I think will ultimately result in me making a good, and sufficiently economical choice. What I really want is to hand one of you some money and say--go buy me a computer:^) Janie |
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Subject: RE: Tech: Which Computer? From: danensis Date: 04 Apr 06 - 04:24 PM If you dump Windoze and put Linux on your old machine you'll get a new lease of life out of it. I've yet to find anything I want to do that I can't do with OpenOffice with regards to standard office functions. There is so much GPL software about now for *NIX machines, I really can't understand why people still pay for operating systems and software. John |
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Subject: RE: Tech: Which Computer? From: artbrooks Date: 04 Apr 06 - 04:43 PM Interesting, JohnInKansas. Most of the definitions of multimedia I seen say things like The combination of audio, video, animation, and graphics used in a computer presentation format. Multimedia productions presents information in all of these contexts. I never thought of it as defining a PC used as a video recorder before. |
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Subject: RE: Tech: Which Computer? From: JohnInKansas Date: 04 Apr 06 - 05:29 PM Janie - Mostly "multimedia" is a buzzword invented by advertising types to make people think that whatever they slap the name on "does everything." There are a few conventional interpretations though. Music is one medium, and the advertising wonks think that means "listen to something really loud." "Multimedia" systems usually have a fairly decent sound playback setup. Sometimes (not always) a "multimedia" computer will be set up to attach to remote speakers that you can scatter around the house. Recently some new computers have had no, or very limited, music input jacks (microphone? tape deck?)since the ad departments don't know you can make music, and when you make your own music you don't buy "published media." Movie/TV is another medium, and "multimedia" systems usually include a DVD for playing "TV shows" (movies?) and may (not always) be set up so you can play the DVD on your computer while using your TV set (if the TV is equipped for it) as the display. Usually a "multimedia" computer will allow you to burn your own DVDs. Some "multimedia" computers make it easy to plug your home video camera in and download your home movies to your hard drive, and usually to burn them to DVDs. Downloading pictures from your digital camera (stills) is pretty trivial, so most of the "multimedia" computers are likely to have "enough" USB ports and may possibly have other kinds of jacks. The "experts" differ on whether the web is a separate "media" but good web performance is expected of any reasonable capable computer. There is literally nothing that a "multimedia" computer can do that can't be done fairly easily, and usually not too expensively, using any reasonably adequate computer. The "multimedia" label goes on if it's all packaged together so you don't have to look for the little extras. The common differences that really matter are somewhat larger hard drives (to save all that "media" on) and usually a little bit more RAM memory (to speed up the processing of all that "media.") The Dell that you looked at, with a 160 GB hard drive has enough HD capacity to get you by for a while, unless you start trying to record everything and leave it on the hard drive. If you burn DVDs and/or CDs and delete the deadwood files from the drive as you go, or just remove some of the office work you'll generate when you do backups, 160 GB should be more than adequate, and it's about twice as large as is common on "plain vanilla" computers selling at discount prices. The Dell also offered 1 GB of RAM, which is about 4x what you'll find on many bargain computers. I consider 256 MB RAM inadequate for windows, but a lot of computers come with about that, and they will run Windows - just not to my satisfaction. 512 MB makes a pretty good WinXP machine, if you don't try to run a bunch of things all at the same time. At 1 GB, you should be able to open 50 snapshots in photoshop while surfing the web with a half dozen browser windows open and make notes in Word while you balance your checkbook in Excel without hearing a burp out of the machine (If you've also got enough hard drive free space). For recording your own music you may need to add a better soundcard than what comes in the Dell. I couldn't find specs. The Dell card will almost certainly have good sound output for listening, but may not have anyplace to plug in a microphone - a fairly common defect in recent computers. With 5 or 7 (or more) speaker output jacks, plus digital TV lines, they have to leave something off and the mic jack is often sacrificed. To do good editing of your own sound files, and to edit your own DVDs, and certainly to touch up family snapshots, you almost certainly will want eventually to add dedicated programs to do the specialized tasks properly. A multimedia computer may include some sample ("gimme software") programs that will do some of it, but they're seldom satisfactory once you figure out what others people can do that you can't do with the freebie stuff. Most of the web activities you describe depend more on the speed of your connection than on any capabilities of your computer, although plentiful RAM helps some. Keeping at least 40% of your (adequately sized) hard drive available and defragmented fairly often also helps, and with 160 GB you shouldn't have trouble having enough free space for quite a while. Note that both the large HD and the extra RAM at Dell were "specials" and their offers of this kind often last only a week or so (esp at Dell); so you may need to start over and see what's special this week, unless you've requested a "hold" on the Dell offer - which sometimes they'll allow, and sometimes not. 1. Get at least 512 MB RAM if possible.(1 GB preferred, more than 1 GB probably is not worth much to you. 256 MB will run, but not really up to speed.) 2. Get WinXP Service Pack 2 3. Get at least a 160 GB hard drive. I don't personally care for extremely large drives, but up to 250 GB wouldn't be offensive, if it's a real deal. I'd rather have 2 180 GB for reliability, and you can add on another drive fairly easily later. 4. Buy from a reasonably established seller. (I've used web purchase and UPS/FedEx delivery for my last 9 computers, but I've dealt with "selected" makers of my own careful choosing. I have a Dell laptop that's been good. The others were all desktops from an "industrial strength" builder. 5. Get as much useful productivity software tossed in as possible, since it's a lot cheaper as OEM than if you buy it all separately. Don't worry about it if you won't use it. 6. Get a price that satisfies you. 7. Bite hard on the bullet. Ignore the pain. Get a computer. John |
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Subject: RE: Tech: Which Computer? From: Stilly River Sage Date: 04 Apr 06 - 11:49 PM AVerMedia is what the remote control says for the card on my daughter's computer. It is supposed to let her link directly from the cable (dish, actually) for watching tv on her computer or recording programs, and for listening to or recording radio (it also has FM and AM receiver in it). The documentation is around somewhere. We don't use the remote, it just sits in it's original wrapper on the computer desk in there. This is installed in one of the expansion slots of the back of the computer (which is to the wall right now so I didn't pull it out to count the various plugs on it). It is set for various sorts of plugs to connect to it. It even has an FM radio antenna. SRS |
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Subject: RE: Tech: Which Computer? From: GUEST,.gargoyle Date: 05 Apr 06 - 12:55 AM Attn: JOHN ROUSHE
Regarding Lynix
I love the concept, I embrace the development....If I was more of a believer I would invest in RedHat.
However, CROSSPLATFORMS
Will an MS Word or OE configured download perform without the installation of Windows on the recieving machine?
If I upload a photo and text from Lynix....will the file received be able to read it with ANY version of Windoze or OE?
Are there cross-platforms difficulties with Apple? Sincerely, Gargoryl |
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Subject: RE: Tech: Which Computer? From: Paul Burke Date: 05 Apr 06 - 04:21 AM Try this: http://www.strangehorizons.com/2004/20040405/badger.shtml |
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Subject: RE: Tech: Which Computer? From: gnu Date: 05 Apr 06 - 09:27 AM Hmmm..... |
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Subject: RE: Tech: Which Computer? From: Stilly River Sage Date: 05 Apr 06 - 10:09 AM I will be so glad to get rid of this sinus infection. It makes proof reading so much easier when your brain isn't fuzzy. . . Seems to me that going to Windows is a mistake for Apple, makes it vulnerable to all of the crud every other Windows user is vulnerable to. Is this change meant to make them cheaper or to improve market share? I exchange photos and data with Mac folks fairly often. Sometimes I can open their files, sometimes I can't. They always seem to be able to open mine, as long as I save text as RTF, and keep the photos to jpg, tif, or png. SRS |
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