No such thing as a B-sharp

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 14 Apr 11 - 08:19 PM

500!! Over and out!

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 14 Apr 11 - 08:20 PM

Ah, Smokey, you just ruined my cunning little plan!

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Smokey.
Date: 14 Apr 11 - 08:20 PM

No chance, Tattie.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 14 Apr 11 - 08:22 PM

You know I've read this thread since it started, and really can't make out why some folk get quite so worked up about it! OMG, that'll set off the next 500!
OK, this time, it really is - OVER and OUT!

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Smokey.
Date: 14 Apr 11 - 08:25 PM

No no, come back - we haven't sorted out the precise nature of the existence of B# yet, or whether it's traditional.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Smokey.
Date: 14 Apr 11 - 08:54 PM

Maybe the B-sharp of Rome could shed some light on it. I can hardly believe I wrote that.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Lox
Date: 14 Apr 11 - 09:09 PM

hehe ... or indeed the Arch B sharp of canterbury .....

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Don Firth
Date: 14 Apr 11 - 09:39 PM

Thanks, Smokey, for finding that Wiki citation.

Actually, Dave, I didn't say what Bach intended when he wrote that particular ensemble of works. I was referring to the fact that musicians in general consider it to be a graphic (or sonic) demonstration of the versatility of equal temperament. And please don't tell me I'm wrong about that. I've read it a number of books on music theory and music history and I've sat in class and heard a number of music professors say exactly that. The only things to the contrary that I have heard have been here on Mudcat. Also, please don't alter what I actually said and then say that I'm wrong for saying that.

By the way, 24 Preludes AND Fugues. 48 pieces altogether.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Smokey.
Date: 14 Apr 11 - 09:39 PM

I'll tell yer summat that doesn't exist: the bottom note on a fiddle. It's about 192hz, and the box on a fiddle isn't big enough to accomodate the wavelength and doesn't vibrate at that frequency, only those of its harmonics. That frequency represents less than a thousandth of the energy in the vibrating air produced, and is consequently below the threshold of human hearing. The listener's brain invents the implied note from the gaps between the harmonics.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Smokey.
Date: 14 Apr 11 - 09:41 PM

"By the way, 24 Preludes AND Fugues. 48 pieces altogether."

No Don, the sadistic bugger did it twice, I've got them here.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Smokey.
Date: 14 Apr 11 - 09:47 PM

And there are B#s...

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Smokey.
Date: 14 Apr 11 - 09:59 PM

"I was referring to the fact that musicians in general consider it to be a graphic (or sonic) demonstration of the versatility of equal temperament."

The best demonstration, I reckon.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Don Firth
Date: 14 Apr 11 - 10:46 PM

Lemme see, now. I'm getting confused here.

12 Preludes in major keys
12 Fugues in those same major keys
12 Preludes in the relative minors of those major keys.
12 Fugues in the relative minor of those major keys.

I count 48 pieces altogether.

I don't have it in front of me, but my wife has it stashed somewhere. She's the keyboardist in the family.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Smokey.
Date: 14 Apr 11 - 10:52 PM

I've got two recordings and the music, Don, and I promise you there are 48 preludes and fugues. Two lots, major and minor. My copy of the second book hasn't had a deal of wear, I can tell you..

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Smokey.
Date: 14 Apr 11 - 11:05 PM

Here you go.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Don Firth
Date: 14 Apr 11 - 11:58 PM

But assuming western European music, which is the idiom in which Bach wrote, 24 keys are all there are. 12 major keys and their relative minors, which makes a total of 24. One prelude in each, one fugue in each.

24 x 2 = 48.

Unless they've changed the laws of mathematics—no, simple arithmetic—I count a total of 48 individual pieces althogether.

Don Firth

?????????

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Smokey.
Date: 15 Apr 11 - 12:02 AM

There are 48 preludes and 48 fugues, 96 pieces in all, if you want to look at it that way. If I'm wrong, I'll saw my own head off and juggle with it.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Don Firth
Date: 15 Apr 11 - 02:49 AM

The Well-Tempered Clavier (German: Das Wohltemperierte Klavier), BWV 846–893, is a collection of solo keyboard music composed by Johann Sebastian Bach. He first gave the title to a book of preludes and fugues in all 24 major and minor keys, dated 1722, composed "for the profit and use of musical youth desirous of learning, and especially for the pastime of those already skilled in this study."

Ah, HAH!!

Bach later compiled a second book of the same kind, dated 1742, but titled it only "Twenty-four Preludes and Fugues." The two works are considered to comprise The Well-Tempered Clavier, and are referred to respectively as Books I and II. The Well-Tempered Clavier is generally regarded as one of the most influential works in the history of Western classical music.

Ah, SO!! The source of the confusion. It was the first book that cause the big stir among musicians at the time about equal temperament.

The second book was basically an "encore."

Okay. Got it.

Don Firth

P. S. A few other composers at the time, or pre-dating Bach a bit, had also been pushing for equal-temperament. One of these was Johann Pachelbel, composer of the well-known "Pachelbel's Canon" (which an acquaintance of mine insists on calling "Tinker Bell's Canon."

P. P. S. Nah! Keep your head, Smokey. It seems to be reasonably functional. And there are so few around these days!!

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 15 Apr 11 - 03:32 AM

Glad we sorted that out, Don.

However, apart from the use of ET in classical music, whether we date it from the 17th century or 1917, most musicians in other genres would not be using it, eg Highland pipers or blues guitarists. (and before anyone asks, there isn't a B# on the pipe scale - the notes are referred to as G, A, B, C, D, E, F, G & A no matter how they relate to the classical notes).

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Lox
Date: 15 Apr 11 - 08:12 AM

What a great thread!

... in the end ;-)

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: GUEST,999 Sorry again!
Date: 15 Apr 11 - 08:36 AM

I take issue with Smokey. He said he'd saw off his own head and juggle with it, but you can't juggle with just one head. That's more like tossing it, NOT juggling. I mean, juggling is like having three or more heads in the air at one time--and don't even think of trying the old switcheroo about chickens laying eggs and dogs with equally distempered clavicles. Of course if ya had one head, a chicken AND a dog with an an equally distempered clavicle playing an equally tempered claviar from the Walloons, then ya'd have a spectacle, with or without a lens grinder.

Nof offense, Smokey. Just tryin' ta keep the record straight.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: GUEST,999--darned memory
Date: 15 Apr 11 - 09:00 AM

But that brings us to a connummmdru/conummdrum/connomdrom problem. If you're juggling with your own head, and the chicken is in the air, what weill you do when it flies away? Uh? Well? Ha! No answer, just as I thought.

But yer a shoo in for the Sleepy Hollow job. Got a horse by any chance? Juggling a head, chicken and dog while riding a horse--like, wow! Who's gonna follow that act? I rest my case.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: gnu
Date: 15 Apr 11 - 09:43 AM

Yer a case alright.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 15 Apr 11 - 09:53 AM

A head-case!
Now would the Canon be related to the B sharps? Please tell me flatly.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Smokey.
Date: 15 Apr 11 - 11:00 AM

My conscience compels me to confess that I was,in fact, bluffing. I can't juggle at all - merely toss, as 999 would say. He's Canadian though.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 15 Apr 11 - 11:33 AM

Don Firth: ..."P. S. A few other composers at the time, or pre-dating Bach a bit, had also been pushing for equal-temperament. One of these was Johann Pachelbel, composer of the well-known "Pachelbel's Canon" (which an acquaintance of mine insists on calling "Tinker Bell's Canon."

Tattie Bogle: "Now would the Canon be related to the B sharps? Please tell me flatly."

Well, for your fun, but informative input...

..........and Don Firth is right about this!!!!

Enjoy!!!!

GfS

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 15 Apr 11 - 11:36 AM

Oooh, and Tattie, Pachelbel's Canon is in 'D'......

GfS

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Don Firth
Date: 15 Apr 11 - 02:40 PM

Yeah, Pachelbel's first name IS Johann. Actually, his canon is a lovely, tranquil sounding piece of music, but I can see how someone who plays the bass instrument in the ensemble, laying down the (technical term alert!!) "ground bass" (no relation to "ground chuck"), which consists of the same two measures played over and over and over and over and over—could wind up losing any sense of tranquility and start trying to juggle his or her own head.

For those who are not sure exactly what a canon is (not a large, heavy gun on wheels), suffice it to say that a round (e.g., "Frère Jacques" or " Row, Row, Row Your Boat") is a simple form of canon.

There was a fellow in the Seattle Song Circle some years ago who worked Pachelbel' Canon out on a dulcimer. Since it consists of four parts (three violins and a cello, as written) and the Appalachian dulcimer has only three strings, toward the end, he got kinda busy. But it sounded pretty good.

Here is the Canon in D as Pachelbel intended it should sound. Actually, nice piece of music.

Try this on your nose flute.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 15 Apr 11 - 04:15 PM

...and actually, I like Pachelbel's Canon.....I just put that there, for everyone to trip out on, and clock the chord changes....AND....to suck up another post, for ol' Smokey and josepp.

GfS

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Don Firth
Date: 15 Apr 11 - 04:37 PM

Yup! Gotta keep this sucker rollin. . . .

Don Firth

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 15 Apr 11 - 04:39 PM

Boy!!!..Here we are again!!!!!..Whatcha got in mind?....(Wink)

GfS

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Smokey.
Date: 15 Apr 11 - 05:06 PM

It's a little known fact that Pachelbel actually stole those chords from a much older Roman folk song, "Trivi Londinium". Not many people know that.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Jack Campin
Date: 15 Apr 11 - 05:24 PM

Pachelbel probably intended his Canon to go much faster than those leaden performances from the 1970s. This is a bit more like it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JvNQLJ1_HQ0

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Smokey.
Date: 15 Apr 11 - 05:41 PM

Then there was the eighties... I preferred the 70s.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 15 Apr 11 - 05:48 PM

Great version!......Still think it was in B#????

D!

GfS

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Smokey.
Date: 15 Apr 11 - 06:00 PM

The key of B# is more a state of mind than a statement of pitch.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Tootler
Date: 15 Apr 11 - 06:44 PM

Then there was the eighties... I preferred the 70s

Do you mean like this?

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 15 Apr 11 - 06:49 PM

Why are you all feeding this troll josepp ?

Dave H

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Tootler
Date: 15 Apr 11 - 06:51 PM

Pachelbel probably intended his Canon to go much faster than those leaden performances from the 1970s. This is a bit more like it:

Yes I found that one just before I read your post. I liked it, they are very good. It reminded me of a string quartet I saw perform in Covent Garden on a Sunday morning some years ago.

Here is another piece by the same group - note the cool guitar <grin>

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYZ79HjPh2M&feature=relmfu

A recorder group I play with play a different set of Bergamasca variations. Not as quickly as that though!

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Don Firth
Date: 15 Apr 11 - 07:04 PM

Josepp? Who's Jo--Oh! HIM!

Nah. He's history. We're having our OWN party!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Smokey.
Date: 15 Apr 11 - 07:19 PM

"A recorder group I play with play a different set of Bergamasca variations"

Yeah, I've played in bands like that too. That may become my favourite euphemism.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Jack Campin
Date: 15 Apr 11 - 07:47 PM

An even simpler bass line is the one in Marais's "Sonnerie":

Harnoncourt and friends playing the original instrumentation: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mhr3BTrZFgM

Really nice solo harpsichord arrangement: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CzhsbdoRfr0

(I suspect Don could do that on the guitar).

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Don Firth
Date: 15 Apr 11 - 09:42 PM

Yeah, maybe, Jack, if I buckle down and practice a bit more diligently.

It might come off better as a guitar duet. Some years ago, I took in a concert by the French duo, Ida Presti and Alexandre Lagoya. They did a whole bunch of harpsichord transcriptions, mostly Scarlatti. They sounded great!

The Seattle Classic Guitar Society threw a party for them after the concert and I had a chance to meet and talk with them there, although I had to rely on my lame high school French. Lagoya gave me a couple of good tips on right hand finger action.

Here's a photo of Ida Presti being a smart-ass and showing off her seven fret stretch. All E's.

The Seattle Classic Guitar Society has some really sharp players in it.    One of them is Michael Partington, seen here busking in Seattle's downtown bus tunnel (CLICKY #1). Not that he needs to. He has CDs out, a full concert schedule, and he recently took over from the retiring Steven Novacek as head of the classic guitar department at the University of Washington School of Music. Another is Elizabeth CD Brown, who graduated from the U. of W. music school and now teaches at Pacific Lutheran University in Tacoma, WA. She plays modern classical guitar, lute, and in this video, a Baroque guitar:   CLICKY #2.

I'm not up in the lofty heights that these two kids have achieved, but I can generally blunder my way around a fingerboard without getting lost too often. But there's certainly penty of inspiration in these parts.

I play and sing for the Society every now and then. Taking a leaf from Richard Dyer-Bennet's book (although as a bass-baritone, I don't sound at all like him), I present myself more as a "modern day minstrel" than as a "folk singer." Although the vast majority of what I sing are folk songs and ballads, I do sing a few other things, such as some songs from Shakespeare's plays and an art song or two. It's not a matter of snobbishness on anybody's part, but unfortunately too many guitar society members have met (mutual interest in the guitar) too many folkies who make something of a fetish about being musically ignorant, and sometimes they can get a bit belligerent about it.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Smokey.
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 05:27 PM

That picture of Ida Presti is almost disturbing. More so if you try it. Is it a normal length guitar? It looks it. I have a shorter scale, narrow fretboard Panormo I tried it on as well, and still it's gruesome. I think I'll try to avoid writing anything which demands the playing of 5 simultaneous F flats...

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Tootler
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 06:01 PM

"A recorder group I play with play a different set of Bergamasca variations"

Yeah, I've played in bands like that too. That may become my favourite euphemism.

I don't want to give the impression I'm particularly accomplished. I'm not. We just play for our own pleasure on Wednesday evenings. We're not up to concert standard or anything like that.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Don Firth
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 06:09 PM

Yeah, Smokey, she plays a standard classic guitar with a full-length fingerboard.

I've linked to this video before, but it's a real jaw-dropper. I sometimes link to it when someone with hands like ham-hocks complains that classic fingerboards are too wide.

CLICKY.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Smokey.
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 06:12 PM

I wasn't judging you or your accomplishment, Tootler, I was just being silly. Sorry if I gave that impression. I only ever did folky stuff on the recorder, Irish airs, Carolan, self written, etc. Those proper Baroque players are something else..

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Smokey.
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 06:18 PM

Don, there's a distinct fluff at 2' 27'' - don't they teach them properly over there or something?

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Tootler
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 06:32 PM

And apologies in return if I misinterpreted you, Smokey. My wife is always telling me I lack a sense of humour :-)

To your other comment:

Much Baroque and earlier material music played by recorder groups is not really any more difficult than the folky stuff, though you need to get into the style. Until the end of the 18th century composers were commonly employed by wealthy aristocrats who were often competent amateur musicians themselves, so the court composer would be expected to produce music that his employer was capable of playing. Even with Mozart, quite a lot of his music is playable by amateur musicians because, although he went freelance, he often produced music for wealthy amateurs - after all, he had to earn a living.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Don Firth
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 06:34 PM

Uh . . . ? 'Scuse me, but I'm lost.

Don Firth