No such thing as a B-sharp

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Don Firth
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 03:10 PM

In my post of 30 Mar 11 - 07:46 p.m. above, take another look at the fourth "THIS" link. That's flamenco guitarist Vincente Gomez. He's playing a Farruca dance form complete with enough "falsettas" to turn it from a straight dance accompaniment to a fairly spectacular guitar solo.

Gomez lived in Los Angeles and supplied guitar sound tracks for several movies back around the 1940s. "Blood and Sand," with Tyrone Power as a matador and Linda Darnell as his sweetheart, was one of them, and "The Fighter," a Jack London story about a young Mexican boxer was another. Entire soundtrack was Gomez on the guitar. Very evocative in both movies.

Gomez also taught guitar in the Los Angeles area and put out a couple of folios of guitar music, mostly flamenco. I bought (and still have) the sheet music for that Farruca back in the mid-1950s. It's pages are black with notes!

I LEARNED the damned thing! Took me awhile! But I don't know if I could play it any more. I was young and full of vitamins back then.

I puzzled out several pieces in Gomez's folio and every now and then I would toss one of these, or a classic guitar piece, into a coffeehouse set. I was no Segovia and I was no Gomez, but I could play them reasonably well. And after showing off a bit, I thoroughly enjoyed hearing some people in the audience muttering, "Good Lord, he can really play that thing!"

The above brag is not to brag, it's just to illustrate that I've been there, done that, and still have the T-shirt stuffed in a drawer someplace. The point is (points are) the following:

1. Learning a folk song or ballad out of a song book is pretty simple, assuming that you can read music. Much simpler than reading other kinds of music (single melody line, maybe chord symbols). But with something like a folk song or ballad, unless you've been at it for a while, it does help to hear someone who knows what they're doing sing it, someone raised in the tradition, or who is thoroughly familiar with it. Not to imitate, but to give a sort of "anchor point."

2. Learning a classic guitar piece is just about the same as learning a classic piece on, say, the piano. But with the added complication that you can find the same note several different places on the fingerboard, and where you would play it depends on several factors. All the details can be put into the sheet music, from the notes to dynamics (mezzo forte, molto allegro, etc.), although you have to be able to interpret just how molto the allegro should be. There too, it helps a student to pull out a record and listen to the piece played by some virtuoso like Christopher Parkening or Eduardo Fernandez.

3. Trying to learn essentially improvisational music such as flamenco or jazz—or various species of folk music—from sheet music can be hell on wheels. With something like jazz, the sheet music is only the starting point. The musicians take it from there, AND it may never be played twice the same way.

And there are stylistic idiosyncrasies in certain genres, such as unconventional rhythmic structures. Let me illustrate. During a music theory lesson with Mildred Hunt Harris some decades back, we were playing around a bit with a calypso song. I got the rhythm on the guitar okay, but she was trying to figure it out on the piano, and she just couldn't get the hang of it. Now, Mrs. Harris knew about all there was to know about music theory (among other things, she was a composer) and she was a fine pianist as well. But after struggling with it a bit and still not getting the shifting beat quite right, she said, "Well, I guess my daughter is right. When I try to play this sort of thing, I just can't seem to make it 'swing!'" So for once, I was able to explain something to her.

Make no mistake. Being able to read music is a wondrous asset and a definite advantage to a musician of any genre. It opens whole warehouses full of music to you. Recommended unreservedly. But the DOTS are NOT THE MUSIC! Not any more than the blueprints are the building or the card in your recipe box is the succulent, perfectly prepared chateaubriand.

And one can get through a life of making positively brilliant music quite nicely, thank you, without ever having to deal with the fact that (and yes, it IS a fact—for what it's worth) that on a fixed pitch instrument, B# and C are the same musical tone.

However, it's effect on the stock market is negligible.

Thus endeth the sermon for today.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: John P
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 04:31 PM

Thank you Don.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: josepp
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 05:01 PM

////Sorry ~ isn't our main focus hereabouts supposedly FOLK music?////

What music isn't folk? And all the people I know who identify as folkies can all read. Many are teachers.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: PoppaGator
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 05:05 PM

Many (long-since-dead) people who you DON'T know, and who ORIGINATED a lot of folk music, did not read music.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: josepp
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 05:19 PM

I'm pretty sure I said earlier that lots of great musicians can't read music. That doesn't detract from their performance abilities. It detracts from their ability to write down what they played. It detracted from their ability to teach others. Inspire others? Sure. Teach others? Pretty limited. Beiderbecke would have been a far better musician if he could read because how much did he come up that he never had the chance to play for anyone that he could have written down but now we'll never hear it?

You can be a great storyteller but if you can't write your stories down, all you can hope is that they get retold exactly as you told them and that isn't going to happen. By the fifth retelling, there's not likely to be much of anything of your original story left.

It's always better to be able to read and write--whether music or words. It's always better.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Bert
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 05:29 PM

'Music theory is music theory and part of his job is to teach it and teach it correctly.'

Yes. Very true.

--------------------------

'they can all play straight off sheet music. That is how it should be'

No. Not true. Fortunately, musicians were playing for thousands of years BEFORE musical notation was invented.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: PoppaGator
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 06:03 PM

"Beiderbecke would have been a far better musician if he could read..."

Maybe, maybe not. One thing we can be a bit more sure of: if he did not use unconventional technique (in violation of the "rules" an "educated" teacher would have enforced), he would never have played some of his most original licks.

Another similar case: Rev. Gary Davis. Like many other unschooled blues artists, he used his left thumb to fret the low E string on the guitar, which is absolutely verboten in the classical/conventional context ~ and which is the only possible way to play certain phrases.

Also consider the many great blind blues originators; they certainly assimilated a lot of theory, in some form or another, but undoubtedly did not read sheet music.

The ability to transcribe music in standard notation may once have been the only way to "record" music for posterity ~ but (in case you haven't noticed) we now have the ability to actually record sound, and have had that resource available since at least a half-century or more before any of us were born.

A recording doesn't show you how to play a piece as well as sheet music (nor as well as tablature, which is actually better than standard notation for showing how a piece is played on instruments like the guitar), but it certainly conveys how the piece sounds ~ exactly how it sounds ~ far better than does any written or printed transcription.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: GUEST, Tom Bliss
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 06:04 PM

A general comment for the open-minded posters here

Bear in mind that you can obtain an excellent knowledge of music theory without being able to read a score, and without necessarily being able to express it the way that they do in music colleges. Theory and reading are interlinked but separate skills.

You can become expert in theory (in whatever genre floats your crank) by playing, listening, watching, discussing, reading books, using diagrams - but never master the telegraph wires. As a child I advanced to the equivalent of grade 6 on the piano, higher on the violin, maybe 3 on the flute, was a red ribbon chorister and taught myself classical guitar - without ever taking an exam because I couldn't read music well enough. (I need to hear the piece first, then I can use the music as an aide memoire - and one hearing used to be enough, by the way).

Likewise you can become a great sight-reader without acquiring any real understanding of what makes music tick.

This musical I'm writing now requires me to produce scores for the players - so I am, but I'm having to get a chum to check them because I can't see the mistakes. It's a necessity evil to me - I won't be there to teach it to them myself, and that's the reason composers have always written down music (once the conventions had been thrashed out). But I'm ALSO making a CD, because the players may not be folkies, and I can't begin to write down the effect I need to make the show work as a folk musical (and for all I know the players and singers don't read anyway).

No-one here has said it's not good or better to be able to read music. And of course it's essential in certain situations like orchestras and session work.

But what a lot of us have pointed out is that you can become a very 'good' musician, with an expert appreciation of theory, without using the conventions developed in European classical music, and without being much cop at the fly-shit.

When it comes to teaching, it's 'need to know' - with the emphasis, ideally, on the aural, not the visual. You don't need to understand continuo to be a rock bass player, and you don't have to read either. Just have big balls.

I have a chum who teaches guitar to people with 'different abilities.' I'm fairly sure he has not explained to them about B-sharp, and he was right not to.

cheerio

Sir Arthur Philipp Paul Thomas Bliss (Bart and Bar)

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Lox
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 06:10 PM

"Of course if we were to listen to idiots like ... lox"

So I am an idiot am I?

Can you explain what it is about my posts to this thread that is idiotic?


PS - New Grove States of Bix Beiderbecke "he played with Trumbauers group in St Louis (1925-6). His association with Trumbauer broadened his musical experience and improved his music reading ..."

Beiderbecke was not known for being an adept reader, but then he was being compared to other professional big band members who would have been required to be able to play their parts at first sight.

His prodigiousness and originality as an improviser meant that this weakness was more than compensated for.

In addition, Beiderbecke composed at the Piano, and wrote tunes whose pandiatonicism, whole tone scales and parallel 7th and 9th chords reflecteed his interest in impressionistic harmonic language.

"however, his cornet playing nearly always in settings over which he had control, had to conform to the harmonic usages of contemporary Jazz and popular music. His playing was largely diatonic ... "


So Beiderbecke may not have been the best sight reader, but he knew his functional harmony from his impressionistic harmony, and he wrote music down for others.

Again, playing in a professional big band meant that he needed nothing short of an excellent understanding of voice leading and functional harmony.

Goood Soldier Schweik may decide to interpret this as some kind of personal insult, or as some kind of attempted proof that non- readers are lesser musicians.

In fact it is just true and very interesting.

If untruths and false claims were not made about Bolden, Oliver and Beiderbecke, I would not have to correct them.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: GUEST, Tom Bliss
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 06:17 PM

Sorry - short version:

There are 4 basic skills in music

1) Playing ability (hands and/or heart)

2) Music theory

3) Reading skill (and maybe writing)

4) Composition/improv etc.

They all feed into each other but they are separate. You can excel any one area without being much cop at the others, no bother.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 07:04 PM

"to play an instrument without knowing what you're doing can be damaging because you incorporate bad techniques that become so ingrained that it becomes a huge struggle trying to get rid of them to play properly."

Ah!!! :-) but many styles of 'folk music' depend on that very fact!

Many fokies hold a violin bow (it IS actually a violin they play, but they call it a fiddle - a viedle is a very different ancient instrument!) the totally wrong way to play classical violin. It is 'wrong' because their way of holding it prohibits them from being able to play the more advanced technical stuff (and play much above a certain speed!), such as Paganini stuff - he was thought to be in league with the devil BECAUSE he was doing things technically differently from the 'experts' of his day. But today, any serious VIOLIN player must be able to play Paganini - you can't pass the exams, for a start...

HOWEVER, for the folkie style of music they play, the technique is adequate. Note again, however, that many of those who play with the VIOLIN resting on the arm - a style of playing that is easily traced back to the Renaissance and may date earlier (and then there is the playing in the lap style - also an early method in 'classical' music for instruments older than the violin!), many also admit that in order to play certain Irish stuff 'faster' :-0 they need to tuck it under the chin! Shades of Paganini!

SO... who's destroying what again? :-)

Sounds like various forms of 'creativity' to me ...

But trolls can only think in black and white - or 'L-mode' - (no matter how many factoids they THINK they have learned!), what happens is why they seem to shift their stance in a 'debate' is because they keep redefining the binary cutoff point along the grey scale between black and white (in spite of demanding 'constants and absolutes' from others, they have insufficient Real World experience to know more than a few tiny unrelated esoteric highlights) ... if you have played with 'graphics' (or done much serious in the way of art above fingerpainting) especially on computers, you will understand this. :-)

They problem with being constrained to think in only black and white terms is that you always end up losing contact with the Reality of the World around you which is infinitely displayed in shades of grey...

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 08:44 PM

Well I've enjoyed reading this thread, even if a lot of the ideas about what a teacher should say are ill-informed nonsense. A poster ages ago mentioned 'lies to children' - well I was until recently a science teacher and I taught that water boils at 100'C, which most of you will believe. I chose not to say that water boils at the point at which the combined total vapour pressures within the mixture reaches the local vapour pressure. I did not dream of discussing homogenous and heterogenous bubble nucleation and when these could be regarded as sufficiently rapid for the liquid to be considered to be boiling, nor whether the water was in a multi phase state, nor any of the things that are necessary for an even basic understanding of the changes of state and heat transfers taking place. They all understood how to make a £$%^& cup of tea though and learnt quite a lot (I believe) about the states of matter needed for GCSE science. I don't think that made me a bad teacher (although a refusal to be seduced by a three part lesson apparently did) and my students both enjoyed classes and learnt what they needed to move onto more advanced lessons.

The question raised in the OP is whether a teacher who explained the work in this way, through limited knowledge or through simplification, is a bad teacher,

Well - as a traditional musician whose main instrument is the highland bagpipes, I am pleased to inform you that there are only nine notes, which is sufficient to play all music of worth and two of those are traditionally given the same name (in the canntaireachd). So there. There are no sharps and flats and there are a sufficiency of notes within those nine to cover some major and minor scales. And the range of the human voice too, except you can't hear anyone over the sound of the pipes. At least pipes play in tune, rather than the horrible compromises accepted by many other musicians...

My second instrument is the fiddle (and all classical musicians play the fiddle, they just had an Italian teacher somewhere in their past). I must admit I've been quite impressed to hear that everyone has agreed that B sharp exists. Amongst classical musicians I had thought that was anathema since equal temperament took over orchestral music sometime before I was born. I have always understood that before ET all keys had different flavours and that to be in tune, and to form pleasant harmonies, some subtle variations to the playing of notes was needed. Fortunately (well unfortunately for this argument, but fortunately because some of the players are nice people and fun to play with) when I play with fixed tuning instruments (box players) I have to play the same notes as them or sound out of tune. Admittedly when I play with fiddle players who play Swedish music and strive to play in tune with their wonderful harmonies I do not always succeed, but that is the result of my poor standards, which is not relevant to the discussion.

In the music that I play, unless I am seeking harmonies, B sharp is the same as C on any fixed tuning instrument. Anybody who plays by ear on a non-fixed tuning instrument they will vary the pitch to be in tune with other instruments whatever you call the note. Anyone who plays on a fixed tuning instrument cannot.

Someone said that there is a difference on a guitar. I'm not a guitarist, but I think not. The best guitarists I know concede that they cannot play 100% 'in tune'. Is there a difference between Bsharp and C on a guitar ? Ask a guitarist.
Any bagpipe teacher will tell you that there is no B sharp. Or any sharp or flat for that matter. That doesn't make them a bad teacher, just that they teach bagpipes.

As I said, I enjoyed the thread and this is my first proper post here, but it does seem to be knocking straw dollies. Enharmonic notes exist in non-ET music because the world is not perfect, but most players working in one genre will never have to worry about it. And even if they worry, if they play by ear they will accommodate or ignore it. The theory will not make a blind bit of differenece.

I expect that guitar teacher is doing a grand job if after three years your child is still enjoying playing and progressing.

Thanks for your time. (Did you really read all this ?)

Greg in London

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 09:13 PM

"to play an instrument without knowing what you're doing can be damaging'

Absolutely right. I got away with it for years and then one morning I woke up, reached for my kazoo and my bum turned green and my legs dropped off.

Naturally I was rushed to hospital where surgeons laboured mightily for hours to re-attach the legs and reduce the deep lovett green of my posterior to a more socially acceptable iceberg lettuce hue.

this whole episode has been a lesson for me, and i determined to learn to read music. As time went on, I began to realise that losing my legs and my bottom turning green had been an important part of my journey.

Josepp is just SO right about this. Every time I play a 16th flattened third on my kazoo, its something special nowadays. And knowing how to write it down makes it nore special.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Lox
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 09:25 PM

In practical terms there is no need for most folk instrumentalists to be conscious of the existence of B# in their playing.

But equally, when somebody asserts with arrogant self assurance that there is no such thing as a B#, there is nothing wrong with pointing out their mistake.

Throwing a load of theory at a beginner may confuse them.

Telling them that there is such a thing as a B# would serve merely as one of those oddities that new musicians love to hear about and enthuse about.

I can't see how it would confuse anyone to know that B# and C are the same note.

As has been pointed out already, the same debate does not arise concerning - C# and Db.

I agree with the majority here that being unable to read does not make your playing worse or less valid.

Only an arrogant person would bvelieve it did.

But I also disagree wiith the arrogant idea that some music is somehow too mysterious to notate. If you know how, then it is possible.

No big deal.

Just music and knowledge. Both wonderful things.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 09:35 PM

OK..One more time.... "G!! Don't B flat, B sharp, but B natural, C?"

GfS

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Smokey.
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 10:26 PM

Lox - I made the comment that some aspects of music cannot be written down - is that what you are referring to? If so, what's arrogant about it?

There may well, perhaps, be nothing which can't ultimately be quantified and notated one way or another, but first they have to be recognised and identified and defined, and the resultant 'score' would be much too complex to be useful to a reading musician. There would be no room for the feeling and interpretation which normally comes from the player, more or less unconsciously. Such aspects are best left uncontrived in my opinion, but then I'm just a slug.

Some interesting reading matter:

Click

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Smokey.
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 10:42 PM

I got away with it for years and then one morning I woke up, reached for my kazoo and my bum turned green and my legs dropped off.

Does that mean you're selling the unicycle?

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Mr Happy
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 08:35 AM

.....so conclusion: B# exists but is commonly known as C!

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: GUEST,999
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 09:26 AM

It is known as C, but on fretted instruments. On non fretted strings they are different.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 09:48 AM

Mr Happy: ".....so conclusion: B# exists but is commonly known as C!"

Pretty much so, however, some musicians may use the term B#, when counting off, to another musician, as designating a half step up. You might consider, using 1,2,3,4,5,6,7, and denoting the half steps going up or down, depending on the direction of the movement, in the progression. That way, the intervals are ALWAYS the same, and the only thing that changes, is where you start, as 1.

For instance, let's say, in the key of E, on your guitar, you may start counting from the fat E string, open. That would be '1'..and the scale starts counting up from there. Now, if you start from 'F'(one fret up) F becomes '1', and the scale counts up from there, using the same intervals. You might hear, or have heard, musicians say to each other, "Grab the '5', and take it to the '7'" That means NO MATTER WHAT KEY YOUR IN, but depending on the key, you know to grab the 5th of that key, and go to the 7th, (or 'sol', to 'ti'). Another example you might have heard, or even said, is, "OK, its a blues tune 1,4,5 in 'A'" I trust you are familiar with that. ..or in a lot of folk or country western, C,F,G.
It is a lot less confusing, and faster, for many players, especially in live jams, or practice sessions....THEN, if someone calls out," Go to the the 'flat 5'"..its a half step down..or if they say, "Go to the sharp '6'"..you know to raise the '6' a half step..which, for all you know, could be a 'B#', or 'C'....or anything, depending on what you call '1'(the key of the song).

Another very important handy hint, is to LEARN THE MAJOR SCALE IN ALL KEYS! You will quickly find, that the 'patterns' are all the same, just that you move '1'('Do') a half step up, when beginning your scale. There are FIVE predominant patterns of the major scale on the guitar. You can note the difference of the 'grand bar' shape, as opposed to the 'double bar' shape, or the 'open C' shape. They all have different major scale patterns. Being as those are the most common, it would do you wonders, to learn those shapes!!..and practice them, till you don't even need to think about them, AND play them 'legato'(very smoothly) from one note to the next, (whether they be on the same string or not), using a 'back and forth' picking technique.

I'm sure, somewhere on the 'net' you can find the patterns, and print them, to use for reference.

There's more, but if you get through this, which is a lot simpler that it may sound, let me know...

AND remember, "SPEED IS A BI-PRODUCT OF ACCURACY!!!"..go for accuracy!!!

Regards,

GfS

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Mysha
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 01:30 PM

Hi,

Don't know about sharp, but last summer I was stung by one flying at relatively 50 km/h, and I tell you: They hurt real bad.

Bye
                                                                  Mysha

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: John P
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 01:42 PM

Lox: But I also disagree with the arrogant idea that some music is somehow too mysterious to notate. If you know how, then it is possible.

I agree with Smokey that the score would end up being to complex for anyone but an extreme high level music reader to play. In the example of a Swedish Boda polska, they would also have to have a very finely honed rhythmic sense -- one that would allow them to place a note accurately in a beat that's been divided into 32nd or 64th notes, with the note surrounded by other 32nd or 64th notes with lots of odd dots and ties. And even then, there's the question of the slight lilt. Yes, you can write "with a lilt" or some such thing on the score, but the lilt in a polska is quit different than the lilt in an Irish reel, so the reader wouldn't know how much lilt to apply.

I know a lot about notation and have been writing and transcribing tunes since I was a kid, but I wouldn't want to take this on. No one I actually know would be able to read it -- and if I found someone who could, the "feel" still wouldn't be right.

I'm not being arrogant, and I'm not saying the music is mysterious in any way. As soon as you learn the dance step it all makes perfect sense and is very easy for anyone with good rhythm. For most musicians it would only be mysterious if you tried to score it accurately.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: johncharles
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 02:07 PM

"Music notation" is a contradiction in terms. Music is heard, while notation is seen. Notating music is thus a translation from one sensory modality to another.In any translation, some information is bound to become lost.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Jack Campin
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 02:38 PM

I also disagree with the arrogant idea that some music is somehow too mysterious to notate. If you know how, then it is possible.
...the score would end up being too complex for anyone but an extreme high level music reader to play.

Bartok's transcriptions are in this style - he was trying to use paper as a recording machine. A lot of ethnomusicologists followed suit. As a practical resource for people who know the idiom and simply want to know how the tune for a song goes, it's next to useless. The School of Scottish Studies's publications are cluttered up with stuff like this, ridiculously complicated transcriptions of unexceptional performances of familiar songs.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Lox
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 02:39 PM

Smokey,

I don't think I was replying to your post, but to a previous one.

I don't think it should be assumed that music needs to be written for the sight reader.

A good writer could find a clear way of using the written medium to preserve any sort of music for later generations.

I have seen indian music well notated, and similar problems arise as in swedish music.

these things can be done and they can be simplified.

I would never suggest writing the phrase "with a lilt" on any piece of music as that is such a subjective term.

On the other hand, there are ways of notating a lilt on a stave.

Where 18th century notation lacks the necessary symbols etc, 21st century notation, and the creativity of the transcriber can allow some pretty non-typical western ideas to be presented pretty clearly.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Tootler
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 06:14 PM

I would never suggest writing the phrase "with a lilt" on any piece of music as that is such a subjective term.

Why not? It's no more subjective than terms such as "Allegro", "Andante", "piu mosso", "con moto" and others that are liberally scattered over classical music scores and have to be interpreted by the conductor or ensemble playing the piece. I have also seen "with swing" and "swung quavers" on a music score and "with lilt" is no different.

Of course, to interpret any such terms, you do need to be familiar with the style and a substantial part of that familiarity will come from hearing the playing of other people familiar with the style, either live on on recordings.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Smokey.
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 06:55 PM

Thanks for clarifying, Lox.

The sort of factors to which I was referring are the details normally associated with the emotional content of the music - much of which is provided intuitively and unconsciously by the player. The written page could never convey such subtleties with any guaranteed success of accuracy, and to me it would be an undesirable thing. Even to convey such things approximately requires skilled demonstration. A simple example of that would be the 'skank' in reggae music - dead easy to write down, but it at least needs to be heard to have any hope of creating the desired effect. The blues is another example; Josepp reckons he learned blues from a book. I think not, and that's without even hearing him try. There are elements in music which are far too subtle for verbal description or graphical representation. That's what teachers are really for - the rest can be found in books. Blues, like reggae or jazz or folk or soul or [whatever], is a feel and an attitude. Without that the notes are just notes. Unfortunately there are people who can't tell the difference, albeit through no fault of their own, and it doesn't necessarily stop them appreciating other aspects of the music. It's all very subjective - that's why it's magic ;-)

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: PHJim
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 08:04 PM

I'm amazed that this thread is still active. It'll soon be giving this one Mother of all stupid threads a run for it's money as the longest, if not the most boring/most moronic thread.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: PHJim
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 08:08 PM

Sorry, that was inappropriate. Sometimes I press "send" prematurely.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: GUEST,entropy
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 10:21 PM

JOSEPP - dude... shut up.   "anything less damages our culture" ???
do you have any idea how many great musicians out there couldn't read sheet music? or didn't give a SHIT whether you called it a B sharp or a C??   
get over yourself.
If you want to be a professor of music, by all means hold yourself to the highest standards of learning and study.
I'm sure it makes you feel like you're a "better musician" than everyone else because quote: (in an erkel-like voice) " I was taught by college-level musicians"
Not everyone has the luxury of being able to afford quality music lessons, and 9 times out of 10, your local music instructor is a non-college-educated, unemployed person who has no other way of making money besides teaching kids the few musical skills they have acquired over their years.
If you pay 20 bucks a week for guitar lessons from a dude that looks like ronnie james dio, don't be surprised if he's got a few MINOR misconceptions about the trivial nuances that you seem to think are SO important.
Stop worrying about whether the kid calls it a B-sharp or a C, and listen to the music he's playing. you might be surprised.
unless you're too big of a snob to appreciate it, which i have a feeling you are.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Crowhugger
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 11:07 PM

I've been surprised a few times too, PHJim, to see this thread still has legs. Certainly on the general topic there is lots of opportunity to debate how much theory information is enough and under what circumstances, because no single answer suits all. And several peripheral topics have arisen to feed the chat mill, too. What's interesting is to see civil discussion repeatedly come through despite the cranky posts.

Not to suggest anyone is a dog, the pattern here feels somewhat like being at the off-leash park when a couple of dogs are having themselves a nice little bark-fest: Despite rounds of noise, other dogs can be found happily at play and some bipeds carry on their own intermittent conversations too.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Bert
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 11:15 PM

The written page could never convey such subtleties with any guaranteed success of accuracy...

Yer right, at least if it is a human trying to notate it.

A while back I did a free trial of a 'sound to notation' piece of software. I tried it out with an a capella song. You would not believe the slides and slurs in my singing, that's apart from the timing. The software was able to notate it but I doubt if any musician would be able to reproduce it.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 11:33 PM

If your music is in your heart, and can come out your instrument including your voice, if you wish, then let it come out...learning your instrument WELL, only increases your options. If someone wants to write it out for you (or use MIDI, and have it written), fine, let them do that. WHATEVER it takes from heart to ears, is 'legal'. Whether you start from writing it on paper, is not the issue, and should never be an obstacle, one way or another.

Just for 'goodness sakes', go to that place where it comes to you!

Best Wishes,

GfS

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Crowhugger
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 11:35 PM

That result would've been fun to see, Bert!

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: GUEST,Razor
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 02:11 AM

If someone tunes an instrument 15 or 20 cents low or hi, and it makes no difference but for the moment it's hi, and plays a B is it a C or a B# or could it be a Cb??? It is still a B or a C depending on where you play the note, C key or B key on a piano.... Is it really a B or a C. If in a guitar you stretch a string when playing is it a B or a C or something else. It's not really about theory or sheet music but about frequency and how one perceives the sound produced. All arguments aside, You cannot teach a horse to talk and the same is true with a jackass... You might, however, be able to teach a horse or even a jackass to play a tune but he can't explain how he did it.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Lox
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 08:48 AM

In terms of human expression, nuance, feeling etc, there is nothing that can be said about written music that can't be said about written speech.

written music is not limited to classical writing either.

You can draw lines, use punctualtion marks or use simple recognizable words to indicatewhat you want done.

A simple short glossary of symbols/terms allows shorthand to be used that makes things cobnsiderably easier.

In terms of interpretation, musicians are as likely to reinterpret stuff they have heard as they are to reinterpret stuff they have read.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: GUEST,999
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 09:11 AM

"In terms of interpretation, musicians are as likely to reinterpret stuff they have heard as they are to reinterpret stuff they have read."




BINGO!

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 09:22 AM

there's an old Derbyshire saying....'tha's not reet sharp' - accusing someone of being a bit stupid.

Could it be that B sharp is an injunction to get wise?

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: GUEST, Tom Bliss
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 10:15 AM

I'm disappointed by the comments which suggest this is an unimpotant topic. The way music is taught is crucial - whether to adults (as in the OP), or to children.

I suffered horribly as a small boy at the hands of boarding school staff who shared the OP's views, being punished more for my 'crime' of refusing to learn to read music precisely because I had 'precocious talent' (I still have the reports).

People do need to understand the different elements and core skills that feed into musicianship, and the relationships between them.

Music is about emotion and beauty. How you get there varies from person to perdon, and teachers should understand what matters for individual pupils

Tom

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: John P
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 10:37 AM

Lox, your seem to be shifting the ground somewhat. You've gone from "if you can hear it you can notate it" to "you can come up with custom notation and teach your custom markings to others and then they can read it". The two aren't even close to being the same.

In terms of interpretation, musicians are as likely to reinterpret stuff they have heard as they are to reinterpret stuff they have read.

Well, sure. That's not what I've been talking about, though. I'm talking about tunes that have rhythmic elements that aren't generally open to interpretation by musicians and that don't fall within any normal subdivision of beats as displayed by standard musical notation. And by notation I mean the system that all literate musicians can read, not some customized language they have to learn before they can read the tune. Talk about trying to make it mysterious!

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 11:58 AM

Alan Whittle: "Could it be that B sharp is an injunction to get wise?"


From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 09:35 PM

OK..One more time.... "G!! Don't B flat, B sharp, but B natural, C?"

Guest,999: "In terms of interpretation, musicians are as likely to reinterpret stuff they have heard as they are to reinterpret stuff they have read."

More as likely??....Well speak for yourself! Some of us write our own, from somewhere else. Interpret: ORIGINAL music!...

Sometimes, 'interpretation' comes from inside your heart and mind, to the instrument, itself...a 'twist of a phrase' or 'musical surprise'. Perhaps a little homework, and learning the instrument, and music, may open those doors.

Razor: "If someone tunes an instrument 15 or 20 cents low or hi, and it makes no difference...."

Try 440 for 'A', and catch up with the rest of the world. If you can't get it, buy a tuner!

Like we used to say in the studio, (and still do), "You can ALWAYS tell a purist..They're ALWAYS out of tune!!!"....Buy a capo, if you can't grab the bar chords. ..jeez!..then learn to play without one, if you can.......................OR.........play Indian music, they use 'quarter tones'.

I can't believe, that even this subject, calls for an Mudcat argument!

GfS

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 12:03 PM

Alan Whittle: "Could it be that B sharp is an injunction to get wise?"


From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 09:35 PM

OK..One more time.... "G!! Don't B flat, B sharp, but B natural, C?"

Guest,999: "In terms of interpretation, musicians are as likely to reinterpret stuff they have heard as they are to reinterpret stuff they have read."

More as likely??....Well speak for yourself! Some of us write our own, from somewhere else. Interpret: ORIGINAL music!...

Sometimes, 'interpretation' comes from inside your heart and mind, to the instrument, itself...a 'twist of a phrase' or 'musical surprise'. Perhaps a little homework, and learning the instrument, and music, may open those doors.

Razor: "If someone tunes an instrument 15 or 20 cents low or hi, and it makes no difference...."

Try 440 for 'A', and catch up with the rest of the world. If you can't get it, buy a tuner!

Like we used to say in the studio, (and still do), "You can ALWAYS tell a purist..They're ALWAYS out of tune!!!"....Buy a capo, if you can't grab the bar chords. ..jeez!..then learn to play without one, if you can.......................OR.........play Indian music, they use 'quarter tones'.

I can't believe, that even this subject, calls for an Mudcat argument!

GfS

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: GUEST,999
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 12:12 PM

"From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 09:35 PM


Guest,999: "In terms of interpretation, musicians are as likely to reinterpret stuff they have heard as they are to reinterpret stuff they have read."

More as likely??....Well speak for yourself! Some of us write our own, from somewhere else. Interpret: ORIGINAL music!.."

Listen up, and stop trying to earn a reputation as an arrogant asshole--and I mean that in the nicest possible way. I was quoting Lox--read the fucking thread. I just happen to agree with him.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: josepp
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 12:13 PM

Haha!! Almost 300 posts!! Gotta love it!

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: GUEST,999
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 12:51 PM

Not as much as we love you, josepp.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: josepp
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 12:57 PM

///Not as much as we love you, josepp///

Now you're tripping my gag reflex.

///JOSEPP - dude... shut up.////

If I did, you would have nothing to contribute.

////"anything less damages our culture" ???
do you have any idea how many great musicians out there couldn't read sheet music? or didn't give a SHIT whether you called it a B sharp or a C??/////

Yes, WAY too many. I don't want to hear this stupid shit anymore. That's no defense for not learning to read music properly and teaching it properly. If you don't want to learn to read music then don't--your loss. But if you are going to learn it, learn it right. That means your teacher has to know what he or she is talking about. How do you know that if there's no standards that the teacher must meet?

////If you want to be a professor of music, by all means hold yourself to the highest standards of learning and study.////

You mean you don't?? Folks, knock off this "My favorite musician couldn't read music so why should I" crap. So I suppose if he dropped out of school, you would too. Look how many black men went to prison because their favorite rapper touted it like it was a necessary step to manhood only realize they wasted their lives? You can enjoy listening to a great musician who is musically illiterate--we all do--but that doesn't mean you have to copy him. He is just as much an example of what not to do as he is for what to do. Chances are, if you asked him, he would likely tell you not to limit yourself. Go as far as you can go.

////I'm sure it makes you feel like you're a "better musician" than everyone else because quote: (in an erkel-like voice) " I was taught by college-level musicians"/////

Duh! Would you hire a lawyer who never went to law school because he had a great natural aptitude for arguing a case? As I said, if you don't want to learn then don't learn. But if you are going to learn, learn from someone you know is qualified. If that person doesn't have a degree in music--good luck.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: GUEST,999
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 01:18 PM

Then stop letting people put that thing in your mouth!

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: josepp
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 02:02 PM

For those who can't believe this thread is still going--at least it's argument about music and music theory. I'd much rather see this thread break 300 posts than to ever see that damned Snooki from Jersey Shore get paid $34,000 to speak at a university about her frigging hair (yes, it just happened). She got $25,000 to walk down a stupid red carpet some months back. So, yes, there's worse things than this thread continuing on. And it's not like it's making me money.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Bert
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 02:39 PM

If a musician plays by ear and doesn't want to learn to read music, then I don't see that it is a problem or anybody else's business.

I am sure that there are many more musicians who can't, or don't, read music than those who do.

If you want to read music, fine, but beware that it might seriously limit your style if you force yourself to only play or sing notes that are on the staff.

I do agree though, that if a teacher is teaching musical notation then it is that teacher's duty to do it right.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Smokey.
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 02:44 PM

Rev. Gary Davis used to give lessons - I don't think I'd have begrudged the absence of theory..

300