No such thing as a B-sharp

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 09 Apr 11 - 07:52 AM

400!

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: GUEST,999 The Final Frontier
Date: 09 Apr 11 - 07:54 AM

BS: The Mother of all BS threads       40336* d

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 09 Apr 11 - 07:55 AM

Yes Jeri - truly the Mudcat can be a source of great enlightenment.

I print off all the pages, dip them in beeswax, twist them and use as tapers to light my way thru the room of ignorance. I'll let Mr J have some.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 09 Apr 11 - 07:59 AM

Perhaps the abusive Troll was right! :-)

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Jack Campin
Date: 09 Apr 11 - 08:46 AM

On guitar, either when accompanying my songs, or with others, I frequently use a capot.

I suppose for English music you need to use a capote anglaise?

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 09 Apr 11 - 10:40 AM

I could swear that Mr Happy actually used a CAPON.

Seriously though, John, in your case try using C shapes with the capo at the 12th fret.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: josepp
Date: 09 Apr 11 - 12:24 PM

Must get to 425 posts...m-m-must...g-get...

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: GUEST,999
Date: 09 Apr 11 - 12:36 PM

No, no, forsooth!



From: GUEST,999 The Final Frontier
Date: 09 Apr 11 - 07:54 AM

BS: The Mother of all BS threads       40336* d


Of course, there's not much chance of that if you don't read your own thread, is there.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Smokey.
Date: 09 Apr 11 - 03:12 PM

"No, no, forsooth!"

Uh.. I'll dig out the crumhorns..

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: GUEST,999
Date: 09 Apr 11 - 04:07 PM

Good idea. Guess what I found. You too, huh?

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Smokey.
Date: 09 Apr 11 - 04:31 PM

:-)
Click

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: GUEST,999
Date: 09 Apr 11 - 06:16 PM

Cool, Smokey. Thanks.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Don Firth
Date: 09 Apr 11 - 08:04 PM

Jack, judging from the web sites you linked to, I would say that the type of coffeehouses that prevailed in my area during the late Fifties and through the Sixties, were quite different.

For one thing, the owners or proprietors of the coffeehouses were generally not especially interested in folk music per se. And some of the earlier ones hadn't planned on having entertainment at all. The Café Encore, which was the first one in Seattle, was little more than a hole in the wall. Seating capacity (tables and chairs) for about twenty-five people at the most. The fellow who opened it was from New York was setting up an antique shop in Seattle, and discovered that there was no place in Seattle where he could get a cup of espresso. So he saw a business opportunity and opened a coffeehouse in a small area next to his antique shop. You could get a variety of coffees, teas, and chocolate drinks there, along with pastries and such. He hadn't planned on entertainment at all, and a few singers began dropping in sporadically and singing a few songs. He didn't pay anything, it was strictly tips, and he tolerated them because the patrons seem to enjoy the singing. Certainly not any kind of folk center or folk club.

The Place Next Door was opened by the Bob Clark, the owner of an art film theater who managed to get a lease on the store-front next to the theater. With tables and chairs, there was ample seating space for a good seventy or eighty people. His idea was to turn it into a combination coffeehouse/art gallery. He was shooting for a sort of artsy-Bohemian atmosphere, dressed informally but neatly in dark slacks, red short-sleeved shirt, and beret, and he normally had a mustache and neatly trimmed goatee. The inside of the Place was decorated with an abstract mural along one wall, and the wall opposite was covered with pale yellow cloth lighted with an array of spotlights where he planned to hang the "paintings of the month" by local artist, all for sale.

An acquaintance of mine who had been all over the country and was a devotee of coffeehouses suggested to him that a great adjunct to drawing people in would be a "folk singer in residence," especially on weekends. I had just finished doing a television series called "Ballads and Books" on a local educational station, and he recommended that Clark see if he could hire me. I agreed, and wound up singing there on Thursday, Friday, and Saturday evenings off and on for a couple of years. But except for occasional guest sets by other singers, and a period of several months when Bob Nelson (Deckman) and I had formed a duo, I was the only "official" singer. Although when I was elsewhere doing concerts and such, he would hire another singer.

If I felt I was growing stale there, I would recommend another singer to Clark, take a breather for a few weeks, then either do a series of concerts at colleges in the area, then move to another coffeehouse for awhile. Singing perpetually at one place can lead to overexposure, so it's a good idea to disappear to somewhere else every now and then.

Each coffeehouse had its own character, but with a few exceptions, each one had a particular "singer in residence" at any given time, although other singers would drop in and do guests sets. But this was not something that happened every night, at least until there were so many singers around that they were jostling each other at the door. One coffeehouse (Pamir House) solved this problem by hiring several singers. Three or four might be up in front of the audience together, and it was next to impossible to control a set or series of songs. We'd sort of "wing" the program, singing separately and together. Very informal. Like singing at a party or songfest.

By the way, Pamir House didn't start out to be a coffeehouse. He had intended it to be an Indian restaurant (a Pamir house was one of the many inns or wayside refuges centuries ago along the Silk Road through the arduous Pamir Mountains in eastern Afghanistan), but a group of Indian exchange students at the University of Washington dropped in en-masse one evening, ate there, and subsequently declare the place a disaster area! So to cut his losses, the owner decided to open it as a coffeehouse, and began hiring folk singers, one of whom was me.

A similar situation was El Matador. The owner papered the walls with bullfight posters and other bullfighting accoutrements and sent out a call for a flamenco guitarist to entertain. No joy! Someone told him that the nearest thing to a flamenco guitarist in town was me. I could play several classic guitar pieces and three flamenco pieces, but that was just a sidecar to my singing of British Isles and American folk songs and ballads.

There were several other coffeehouses around here as well. Some discovered that if they were to make a go of it, they had to have entertainment, and one person with a guitar was about as economical as they were going to find, so folk singers, who were proliferating at the time, were a natural.

As I said, the owners of the various coffeehouse were far less interested in folk music than they were in drawing people into their establishments and selling them expensive coffees, teas, and pastries, but having someone in the place who would come out and sing for about thirty-five or forty minutes every hour throughout the evening worked out quite well, because the places were generally packed on weekends.

And they were great places for people like me to hone their skills before audiences in preparation for doing concerts and other more lucrative and prestigious engagements, while at the same time, earning a bit of money. In Seattle, anyway, the coffeehouse owners paid a set fee regularly. In some areas, there were what they called "basket houses," where the patrons tipped the singers, but that died very quickly in Seattle. On any given night, they couldn't automatically assume that they would have any singer or singers there at all! And those who did show up usually knew four chords, one strum, and a half-dozen songs learned from Harry Belafonte records.

Although nobody got rich at it, coffeehouse singing in Seattle was a regular job. And some of them, such as The Place Next Door, were pretty much like non-alcoholic night clubs. Rather than a jazz group or pop singer as regular entertainment, they had a resident "minstrel."

This is getting kind of long for a Mudcat post (but it does help bloat Josepp's thread a bit). A really comprehensive run-down of the "coffeehouse scene" would take a book. But I hope this answers most of your questions. Feel free to ask more if you wish, and I'll try to supply answer if I can.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Smokey.
Date: 10 Apr 11 - 10:28 PM

It'd be a great shame if this thread disappeared.

Is there still a coffeehouse scene in the U.S., or anything like it? You should write a book, Don, if you don't mind me saying so.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Mr Happy
Date: 11 Apr 11 - 06:53 AM

.......& un-capoed, how could one achieve a piece in B#?

On guitar, what finger shapes?

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: GUEST,GUEST
Date: 11 Apr 11 - 07:14 AM



Err, Ray Charles? Stevie Wonder? Art Tatum? Blind Lemon Jefferson? ...

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 11 Apr 11 - 07:35 AM

Un-capoed, John? Don't tell me you're having it surgically removed.

You probably need cylindrical (approximately) fingers.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Mr Happy
Date: 11 Apr 11 - 07:48 AM

Any seriously sensible responses, anyone?

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 11 Apr 11 - 07:55 AM

You mean you're not taking the piss?

In that case C open.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Mr Happy
Date: 11 Apr 11 - 08:05 AM

Not taking the p - rather the thirst for knowledge.

So can I now conclude that on guitar, bur perhaps not on all instruments, B# is imaginary? & aka C?

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 11 Apr 11 - 08:11 AM

Depends in what key you are playing - refer to your scales chart, since you apparently haven't memorized them ... :-P

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 11 Apr 11 - 08:14 AM

You can conclude that on equal-temperament instruments, of which the guitar may be one, B# and C are identical. B# is definitely not imaginary, though it may at times have a scarcity value rivalling that of the Higgs boson.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 11 Apr 11 - 12:48 PM

Mr Happy: ".......& un-capoed, how could one achieve a piece in B#?

On guitar, what finger shapes?"


YOUR ANSWER IS FOUND IN HERE!!!!:

From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 09:48 AM

Mr Happy: ".....so conclusion: B# exists but is commonly known as C!"

Pretty much so, however, some musicians may use the term B#, when counting off, to another musician, as designating a half step up. You might consider, using 1,2,3,4,5,6,7, and denoting the half steps going up or down, depending on the direction of the movement, in the progression. That way, the intervals are ALWAYS the same, and the only thing that changes, is where you start, as 1.

For instance, let's say, in the key of E, on your guitar, you may start counting from the fat E string, open. That would be '1'..and the scale starts counting up from there. Now, if you start from 'F'(one fret up) F becomes '1', and the scale counts up from there, using the same intervals. You might hear, or have heard, musicians say to each other, "Grab the '5', and take it to the '7'" That means NO MATTER WHAT KEY YOUR IN, but depending on the key, you know to grab the 5th of that key, and go to the 7th, (or 'sol', to 'ti'). Another example you might have heard, or even said, is, "OK, its a blues tune 1,4,5 in 'A'" I trust you are familiar with that. ..or in a lot of folk or country western, C,F,G.
It is a lot less confusing, and faster, for many players, especially in live jams, or practice sessions....THEN, if someone calls out," Go to the the 'flat 5'"..its a half step down..or if they say, "Go to the sharp '6'"..you know to raise the '6' a half step..which, for all you know, could be a 'B#', or 'C'....or anything, depending on what you call '1'(the key of the song).

Another very important handy hint, is to LEARN THE MAJOR SCALE IN ALL KEYS! You will quickly find, that the 'patterns' are all the same, just that you move '1'('Do') a half step up, when beginning your scale. There are FIVE predominant patterns of the major scale on the guitar. You can note the difference of the 'grand bar' shape, as opposed to the 'double bar' shape, or the 'open C' shape. They all have different major scale patterns. Being as those are the most common, it would do you wonders, to learn those shapes!!..and practice them, till you don't even need to think about them, AND play them 'legato'(very smoothly) from one note to the next, (whether they be on the same string or not), using a 'back and forth' picking technique.

I'm sure, somewhere on the 'net' you can find the patterns, and print them, to use for reference.

There's more, but if you get through this, which is a lot simpler that it may sound, let me know...

AND remember, "SPEED IS A BI-PRODUCT OF ACCURACY!!!"..go for accuracy!!!

Regards,

GfS

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Apr 11 - 02:53 PM

Hi, Smokey. Yes, I am writing a book as a matter of fact. It stated out to be a history and overview of the folk scene in the Pacific Northwest. But it didn't take me long to see that it was going to be a much larger project than I really cared to tackle, so I decided to make it more of an autobiography:   my reminiscences of the whole thing as I blundered my way through it. I've been working on it for several years now, just sort of letting it flow out as I remembered it (checking with various people as I go, as in, "I know that was in August, but was it in 1963 or 1964?"). So far, I have over 125,000 words written, with a decade or two yet to cover. It's going to require a lot of pruning and editing to turn it into something readable, but until I get it all down on paper, I don't want to interrupt the flow.

The late John Ross, who often dropped into Mudcat, was attempting to write a formal history of the Pacific Northwest's folk music scene, but unfortunately he died of a heart attack recently. And a fellow named Kurt Armbruster has just sent his history off to the publisher and it's due to be released in September of this year. I've talked a lot with both John and Kurt and we swapped a lot of information and did a lot of fact checking for each other. Good to cooperate like that. We determined that although we were covering a lot of the same ground, we weren't stepping on each other's toes because these books would actually complement each other, Kurt and John doing formal histories from somewhat different viewpoints and me from the viewpoint of actually being in there, trying to paddle around.

The current coffeehouse scene? I think it's somewhat similar to the way it was in the 1950s and 60s, although these days they seem to be doing less of having a resident singer who sings four or five sets per evening, and more of having a variety of singers do something similar to house concerts at the coffeehouse on weekends. Some of them may still operate like non-alcoholic night clubs, but I'm not really sure. Check The Pacific Northwest Folklore Society's web site and mosey around there a bit, and you'll get an idea of what's going on.

I've pretty much retired from performing (as in doing coffeehouse gigs and concerts) because of difficulties getting around. Due to polio at the age of two, I used to get around on a pair of aluminum forearm crutches and lugging my guitar case, but within recent years I've had to take to a wheelchair, and that's complicated things a bit, especially things like getting lifted, wheelchair and all, up on a stage or having a couple of bully-boys try to lug me and my wheels up a flight of stairs is just a bit too hairy!! So, like the slightly weird Canadian concert pianist, the late Glenn Gould, I've retired from performing in public save on rare occasions and am concentrating on recording all the songs I know (fast computer with recording software, interface, and a couple of really good microphones). As long as my voice holds up and my fingers stay nimble, I'll try to get them recorded, then see about getting them replicated onto CDs.

Then, who knows? Not planning on going for a bunch of Grammies, but if some of them go platinum, I won't actually burst into tears. . . .

Havin' fun with it.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Smokey.
Date: 11 Apr 11 - 06:40 PM

Thanks, Don - I trust you'll shout when it's available, likewise your music. I appreciate your posts tremendously and find your way of writing most digestable. It's good to hear first hand from someone who's actually 'been there'. Thanks for the link too - some really good stuff there.

Sorry to hear of your mobility problems - I wish you the best of luck with your recordings and look forward to hearing some. Unlike our esteemed thread-mentor, I'm quite partial to a bit of tone-deaf sluggery.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 11 Apr 11 - 08:44 PM

"There are FIVE predominant patterns of the major scale on the guitar."

There is [i]only [b]ONE pattern[/b] for a Major Scale[/i].

Tone Tone Semitone - Joining Tone - Tone Tone Semitone.

It is naturally implemented physically differently on differently constructed instruments.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Smokey.
Date: 11 Apr 11 - 08:51 PM

I thought that originally meant fingering patterns, TFT, though you're obviously right in what you say.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 11 Apr 11 - 11:20 PM

Ok so now Max has clobbered HTML in threads....? :-)

My broken brackets were converted to square, or did I just grab the wrong function in Leetkey?

Me eyes ain't what they used ta be - they used ta be me ears....

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Smokey.
Date: 11 Apr 11 - 11:32 PM

You'll be needing a pair of Möbius spectacles then.. but that's nothing compared to my nose problem.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Smokey.
Date: 12 Apr 11 - 01:17 AM

Purely for the sake of hairsplitting, Fooles Troupe, wouldn't you agree that the Lydian and Mixolydian modes were as major as the Ionian if the third is the deciding factor?

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: GUEST,999
Date: 12 Apr 11 - 02:41 AM

OK. I'm a CanaDIAN. The Lydian modality is abSOluteLY THE way to go IF you like Rock and Buns.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: GUEST,999
Date: 12 Apr 11 - 02:43 AM

FAWK. Sorrie. Roll.

Modes as we all call them ain't nothin' but scales with fancy names. No offense.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Smokey.
Date: 12 Apr 11 - 11:43 AM

Obviously you never heard Pope Gregory's 'Gimme Dat Thurible', or its follow-up, 'Swing, Brother, Swing'. Mind you, that was before we in the civilised world invented Canada.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: josepp
Date: 12 Apr 11 - 05:41 PM

////Obviously you never heard Pope Gregory's 'Gimme Dat Thurible'////

He stole it from the Thelonius Monks--the swingingest order there ever was. Damn Catholics.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 12 Apr 11 - 06:01 PM

Smokey - I'm sulking - ain't gonna post no more to this thread till people start posting to MY Cow thread!


:-P

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Lox
Date: 12 Apr 11 - 07:22 PM

Just to clarify.


In the Key of C#. the note B# is essential as it is the 7th note of the key.

This is a useful distinction to make, as playing in the key of C# is a realistic and sensible alternative.




There are, however, no circumstances (that I can think of) where it would be necessary to play in the key of B#.

That would indeed be a nonsensical and pedantic distinction to make.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 12 Apr 11 - 07:31 PM

"There are, however, no circumstances (that I can think of) where it would be necessary to play in the key of B#.

That would indeed be a nonsensical and pedantic distinction to make. "

Hah! Unless the key of B# is the 5th (V or V7) (or indeed any other related key essential for the chordal progression) of the Base Key of the Progression...

Not to count Modulations....

Sigh! The less people know the louder they have to shout the little they know!

Signed Mr Pedantic Trained in 5th Grade Music Theory ...
:-P

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Don Firth
Date: 12 Apr 11 - 07:47 PM

Things like the key of C# are more in the nature of an academic exercise for music theoreticians who are having slow day. It would be a pain in the nether regions to read, even for a good, experienced sight reader. A much simpler expedient and the way it's generally done would be to write the same piece of music in Db. Much easier to read, and contrary to what some may think, the notes come out exactly the same, even in perfect tuning (not even tempered).

And writing something in the key of B# would be just plain silly. Gratuitous confusion.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 12 Apr 11 - 07:53 PM

Well - yes Don, but, having had my childhood Exam and Competition pieces moved into other keys more suited to my voice, I suppose that pedantically, the Home Key of A sharped three semitones is .... Db .... :-)

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 12 Apr 11 - 07:55 PM

Too soon...

Whether you would preferentially put music into a "Sharp or a Flat" key, depends on what instrument you play.... :-)

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Smokey.
Date: 12 Apr 11 - 08:15 PM

If B# is the 5th, you'd have to be already playing in E#. If you think I'm going to do that from the music, you can fuck off :-)

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Lox
Date: 12 Apr 11 - 08:16 PM

"Hah! Unless the key of B# is the 5th (V or V7) (or indeed any other related key essential for the chordal progression) of the Base Key of the Progression..."

Sorry FT, nice try but no cigar.

I'm talking about keys, not chords.



And I'm sorry to have to point out that even in the context of your error, B#, as a V chord, would be the V in the key of E# ... better described as F ...

So yours would be another entirely unrealistic scenario. :-)

... oh go on ... you can have a cigar anyway ...

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Lox
Date: 12 Apr 11 - 08:21 PM

Don,

Writing in Db makes more sense - perhaps - than writing in C#, but in terms of playing or singing, especially on the guitar, thinking in C# is easier, as you just think Cmajor, but every note is sharp.

Seemples.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Don Firth
Date: 12 Apr 11 - 09:04 PM

Exactly so. This is why, if I've just learned a song with a fairly wide range and it feels about right in C, but a bit low, and for guitaristic reasons I don't want to do it in D, I snap the capo on the first fret, use the C cycle of chords, and it comes out in either C# or Db (whichever turns your crank). As long as it doesn't frighten the horses, I don't worry about it.

I can get as theoretical as anyone, but if push comes to shove, I tend to be a pragmatist. Whatever works.

Don Firth

P. S. Notations just under the song titles in the songbooks of Joan Baez, Gordon Bok, and others, if you want to follow the song as it's played on the record:

Key of F#m:   Capo II, play as in Em.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Smokey.
Date: 12 Apr 11 - 09:05 PM

I'd just forget the sharps and bung the capo on..

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Smokey.
Date: 12 Apr 11 - 09:06 PM

You beat me to it, Don.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 13 Apr 11 - 02:25 AM

Smokey: "I thought that originally meant fingering patterns, TFT, though you're obviously right in what you say."

You are correct. Fool's Toupee isn't talking about the same thing. He usually contradicts anything I post, just because its me...and he is...well,...a fool?

GfS

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Mr Happy
Date: 13 Apr 11 - 08:20 AM

Hmmmmmm.............so now there's a V as well?

So, let me see, B#[C],Cb, C, C#,Db, D, D#, Eb, E, E#, Fb, F, F#, Gb, G[H], G#, Ab, A, A#, Bb, B, B#[C] & V - where does that fit in & is it sharp, flat or au naturelle?

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Smokey.
Date: 13 Apr 11 - 09:49 AM

Well, you need a V to lead to your I, but I fear your H is entirely in the wrong place.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 13 Apr 11 - 01:47 PM

"Things like the key of C# are more in the nature of an academic exercise for music theoreticians who are having slow day. It would be a pain in the nether regions to read, even for a good, experienced sight reader. A much simpler expedient and the way it's generally done would be to write the same piece of music in Db. Much easier to read, and contrary to what some may think, the notes come out exactly the same, even in perfect tuning (not even tempered)."

I'm just looking at the violin fingerboard diagram from Peter Prelleur, The Modern Musick-Master (1730-31), "The Art of Playing on the Violin", and while the intervals might be the same, the notes are definitely different.